PODCAST. ADHD Emotional Regulation and Stress Management with Dana Crews.

Dana Crews MA, ADHD-CCSP, MBSR, CALC runs Second Arrow ADHD Coaching and holds a Master’s in Buddhist Psychology. Dana brings over twenty years of experience as a behavioral health specialist and social worker, with a background rooted in meditation, mindfulness, and emotional regulation practices. This engaging conversation explores Dana’s journey and her approach to helping clients with ADHD manage their unique challenges through mindfulness, meditation, and emotional regulation.

A Journey with Meditation and Mindfulness and His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Dana shares her introduction to meditation through her hippie parents and early life in a Montessori community. A risk-taker by nature, Dana pursued unique learning opportunities, including studying in Israel and traveling to India. Her journey led her to sit with the Dalai Lama, an experience that deeply influenced her perspective on mindfulness and compassion. She explains how mindfulness and meditation have been integral to her life and practice, particularly in managing stress and staying grounded in the present.

Emotional Regulation as a Core Practice for ADHD

Dana emphasizes that emotional regulation is essential for managing ADHD. In her work, she teaches clients to identify their emotions, recognize physical sensations linked to those emotions, and acknowledge the stories their minds create. This approach helps individuals develop awareness, reduce impulsive reactions, and find balance in moments of high emotion and stress. Dana argues that emotional regulation, while often considered a therapeutic goal, is foundational to ADHD coaching.

The Power of Mindfulness and Presence for ADHD

Dana clarifies common misconceptions about mindfulness and meditation, explaining that the goal is not necessarily to silence thoughts but to observe them without judgment. Through mindfulness, one can recognize thoughts as they arise and let them pass, which can create space for healthier decision-making. Practicing mindfulness in daily life—by pausing to notice what we’re doing or feeling—enables a sense of calm and presence that helps manage ADHD symptoms.

Reframing Fear and Excitement in Public Speaking

Drawing from Dave Delaney’s experience as a keynote speaker, he discusses reframing anxiety as excitement when preparing for a presentation. Dana supports this idea, adding that how we interpret our emotions can profoundly affect our experiences. By reframing anxious thoughts as excitement, individuals with ADHD can turn potentially overwhelming situations into moments of personal empowerment and success.

Understanding the “Second Arrow” Philosophy

Dana explains the Buddhist concept of the “Second Arrow,” which is central to her coaching philosophy. The first arrow represents unavoidable pain, while the second arrow symbolizes our reaction to it. While the first arrow is beyond our control, the suffering from the second arrow is optional. By cultivating emotional awareness and resilience, we can reduce unnecessary suffering and approach challenges with greater clarity.

ADHD, Neurodiversity, and the Superpower Debate

Dana and Dave touch on the ADHD superpower debate, considering privilege as a factor in how people experience ADHD. They discuss how some view ADHD as a superpower, while others feel it can be a limiting disorder. Dana suggests that both perspectives can coexist, recognizing the unique strengths ADHD may offer while acknowledging the struggles it can bring, particularly when unrecognized or untreated.

The Role of Self-Awareness in ADHD Management

Dana advocates for combining therapy and coaching to foster self-awareness and compassion. She believes that understanding one’s emotions, behaviors, and thought patterns is crucial for managing ADHD. Dana encourages her clients to build a strong awareness of their internal experiences and use this knowledge to make intentional choices, reduce reactivity, and ultimately lead more balanced lives.

The Importance of Community and Connection

Dana highlights the value of community within the ADHD world, where people with ADHD can find acceptance and understanding. She discusses how, for many, discovering others with ADHD brings a sense of belonging. This idea of connection is especially meaningful in creative and artistic circles, where people with ADHD often find their tribe and thrive in environments that celebrate diverse thinking, like punk rock scenes, for example.

Link Love…

Visit Second Arrow ADHD Coaching to learn more about Dana’s services, schedule a free consultation, or access resources for ADHD management. Dana offers tools, articles, and guidance designed to help individuals with ADHD navigate their unique challenges with compassion and resilience.

Jon Kabat-Zinn is a professor emeritus of medicine and the founder of the Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) program at the University of Massachusetts Medical School. He has authored several influential books on mindfulness, including "Full Catastrophe Living" and "Wherever You Go, There You Are." His work has been instrumental in bringing mindfulness practices into mainstream medicine and society.

Dr. Lidia Zylowska, a guest on Wise Squirrels, is an associate professor at the University of Minnesota's Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences and a faculty member at the Earl E. Bakken Center for Spirituality and Healing. She is internationally recognized for her expertise in adult ADHD and mindfulness-based therapies. Dr. Zylowska developed the Mindful Awareness Practices (MAPs) for ADHD program and authored the book "Mindfulness Prescription for Adult ADHD."

Enjoy the show? Please consider joining as a Patreon member. Thank you.

• Transcript

  0:00

  So. So I've been a behavioral health specialist and social worker for over 20 years. I'm currently an ADHD coach, also certified professional ADHD service provider and educator. I've spent over 25 years in the meditation and mindfulness community. I'm a practitioner of that, and I work with individuals mostly concerning emotional regulation and stress management.

  0:39

  Yeah, that's great.

  0:40

  ADHD care, yeah,

  0:42

  and you're, you're coaching. Your company is second arrow, ADHD coaching.com. Is that right? Yes. Second arrow. ADHD coaching, yes, excellent, yeah. Well, first of all, yeah. Full disclosure, this is our second time recording this interview, because I butchered it last time and, yeah, had some technical issues, so I appreciate you your patience coming back and and going round two, bing, bing, bing, oh,

  1:08

  it's my pleasure. It was fun talking to you the first

  1:12

  time. So yeah, let's, let's jump right in. And you're, I remember, you know, when we were first chatting, you were you had shared some of the story of your connection to meditation like there's or your introduction to meditation through your your old hippie parents and your love of nature and growing up. Tell me a little bit about that. And then what led you to heading off to Indian, to Indian, to India, to to actually sit with the Dalai Lama

  1:42

  oof, okay, yeah, long story, but I'll make it as short as possible in ADHD style. Yeah, my parents are old hippies. Grew up in the Montessori community. My mom was a teacher. My dad was an entrepreneur, you know, always starting up businesses and so yeah. Always really encouraged to just, you know, think for myself and do for myself and be independent and sort of follow my bliss kind of thing, yeah. And going into, yeah, going into my teen years, I was very interested in experiential education, so I was diagnosed with a learning disability at a young age. Of course, not ADHD, though, because little girls, you know, didn't get diagnosed with ADHD in the early 80s. So um, but yeah, having a learning disability, it was always like, yeah, do what feels right, or do what works for you, or, you know, kind of view, which I very much appreciate now, and has, I think, helped me very much throughout my life. And so as a young adult, yeah, I was interested in, like, adventure camps or learning, you know, in different ways. Or, you know, I convinced my parents that I wanted to go study in Israel in high school. And so, yeah, I don't know how they were okay with that, but, but I, yeah, convince them. And I, I definitely was always an adventurous, take, risk taker type kind of kid. And so, yeah, that led me to college, and then the pursuit of just interesting education, like, whatever was interesting to me. I was like, Oh yeah, give me, you know, and I want more. And so that ended up, you know, with sociology and psychology and Religious Studies and and then that led me to India after college, when, after I graduated my undergrad, and, yeah, happened to be traveling in India, got a visa for six months and decided that I was going to go visit His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, and he happened to be teaching for three weeks, and it was an open, public teaching. And so I got to sit down and be like people that were interested in in the Dharma and similar information. And, yeah, it was changed. My life was amazing. The whole trip,

  4:18

  that's amazing. Yeah, what, what was the, was it at like, a monastery or something like that, or where, where

  4:25

  it was at his, yeah, in outside of darmsilla. It's called me core Glenn, and that's where he lives. And, yeah, teaches, and yeah, there was international communities are there, and it's kind of a Mecca, yeah, for people to come and visit, yeah.

  4:42

  And I'm definitely a big proponent and fan of his work. Now, obviously, you'd have to be such a dick to say that he, like, you don't like the Dalai Lama, like, like, what could a jerk would ever say that? But no, I as far. Like meditation and mindfulness. You know, I I have dabbled through my whole life, really, on and off. My earliest experience in like an actual sitting meditation, I was with a class, and I was quite young, and my mom had let me go for some reason, I don't know, but I don't remember how old I was, but dating myself with the reference now I was, I was a big fan of Starsky and Hutch, the TV show, and, and Starsky, specifically, yeah, and, and I read an article about him, and he had talked about yoga and and meditation. And I was like, Huh, what's that? And so, and I went and did this meditation, yeah, and so, but I never really took it seriously enough. And I've always been not like, I'm I always consider myself not terribly religious. And so, you know, growing up, I just never got into any sort of spirituality at all. And if anything, I would push back against that. And in my adult years, realized that, especially in 2020, actually, when I when I started a daily practice with intention, and that has deeply helped me a lot, even two years before my diagnosis of ADHD. So just leading up to that of quitting drinking in 2020, so going sober and then doing meditation and mindfulness, and that has really, really helped me in my own sort of ADHD journey and life journey too. What are some, some of the ways that you have found that meditation helps you. You were diagnosed at 40. Is that right? Yes,

  6:43

  40, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like two part one is perspective, and one is the practice, you know, and the way that my graduate degree helped inform the information and the perspective, because it was really about understanding the mind, you know, Buddhist psychology, so understanding the mind, but then heavily based upon practice, right? So, rigorous education, but also practice. So there's always these two parts to me, in terms of, you know, the view and the practice and just to there's so much benefit. I mean, people, I think, have a myth or misunderstanding about meditation or what it is, and it's really just about being present. I mean, there's lots of different forms of meditation, obviously, and mindfulness is just one of those forms of meditation. Last time we talked about Yeah, loving kindness practice and yeah as a different yeah option, but um, mindfulness meditation, because people are more familiar with that, really is just about being present and continuing to be present and coming back to continuing to be present. It's not necessarily about like pushing out the thoughts or calming the body or the mind. I think people have a misunderstanding of that as well. Yeah, it's more about being with things as they are in the moment, presently, without judgment, or, I would say with compassion, because it's easier to say the positive than to say the negative, right? So, yeah, just continuing to come back and to recognize what's happening in the present, and not just while you're sitting or during a meditation practice, but in your daily life, every day, you know, we have, we have the opportunity to just pause and just take a moment. I was like, Is this what I want to be doing right now, or is this what I want to say right now? Or, you know, what do I want, or what do I need? You know, just taking that brief moment and then allowing for that space and then acting out of that awareness and that compassion. It

  9:07

  makes sense. I mean, I'm a I'm a big fan of Sam Harris's work, and subscribe to his podcast, or his podcast and his app, and, yeah, he's, I've learned a lot through that app, and through his his guided meditations, and in in reframing thoughts. And, you know, he talks a lot about, there was, uh, because I do a lot of presentations, and I speak on stages, and I also teach people, you know, presentation skills and communication skills a lot of times. You know, people are petrified of standing on stages and delivering presentations. And he said something that I found really helpful, which was this idea of the feelings you have if you're scared to present in front of an audience, let's say and so you're going to go on stage and you're going to deliver a presentation, and you just hate the whole idea of. It, and you're petrified and you're scared, and you feel like butterflies in your belly, and you're short of breath, and you feel a little sweaty, and all these maybe shaking a little bit. And the way Sam Harris had talked about it, he was like, yes, like, those are all the things. But what are the feelings of excitement? And it's like, well, if, if, if you know the material well, and you've done everything you can to the best of your ability, you're not dialing it in, and you're about to step on stage to share something of some importance, whether it's entertaining the audience, whether it's informing them of something new, or whatever it is. But you're about to step out, you're about to share something of importance with the audience. Presumably, maybe it's that you're excited, and that the bellies, the, you know, the butterflies in your belly, the sweat, the shortness of breath, is excitement. And so it's, it's choosing in that moment. No, I'm excited. I'm not scared, and going out there, interpretation, yeah, events,

  10:59

  yeah. And things are, you know, not everything is within our control, right and right, yeah. And that's not just a Buddhist philosophy. I mean, even the Stoics, you know, have that interpretation of reality where, you know, external events are out of our control, but our thoughts and opinions and decisions and actions are within our control, and it's the interpretation that matters, right? Like you said, like, am I excited or am I nervous? It's possible that you're both, yeah, that too, just the emotional awareness of that is a whole nother practice, right? Yeah, but it is our also our interpretation of the events and how we see our lives, or how we see ourselves, right? We can be highly self critical with ADHD, highly self judgmental. We can have a lot of like, ultra processed thoughts, right, rumination, fixation, and so, you know, are we viewing that as, oh, this is part of life, this anxiety, or this this fear, or this stress, or, you know, are we diving into it and getting over, you know, getting hooked by it or allowing it to then envelop us in a way that, yeah, overwhelms us and then, you know, takes us away from the moment.

  12:22

  What are there? Like you mentioned, mindfulness meditation being a type of meditation, and I think there's also confusion often with meditation, where, even maybe for me, where I feel that, that I feel that mindfulness is an after effect of meditation, and that the more of a practice you can do and dedication to the act of meditating, the more mindful one becomes, because then you can calm yourself and quiet your mind enough to focus on the moment. So to me, in a way, mindfulness is almost like a result of meditation. Am I wrong about that, or right? Or what are your thoughts? No, I think

  13:07

  that's wonderful. I love that thought. I think the mindfulness movement, you know, came into the United States to sort of secularize Buddhism. You know, it was sort of easier to, kind of, like, take what meditation was, or this particular type of medic meditation, to the mass. It's, you know, to the western population, you know, to America. And it, obviously, it gets grown. You can, you know, you can see that it's very popular. Just the word mindfulness, people just use that, right? And so, but I think what you're saying about it's also, it is the practice, but it's also a result of the practice. Is a wonderful way to think about that, because, as I said before, just the Awareness itself, just being aware of what you're doing, because we can't change behavior if we're not even aware of our own behavior, right? Yeah, and so that, yeah, sure, it's not like we're trying to calm the mind, necessarily, in meditation, but it's absolutely result. And the calmer that we are, or the more steady, or result, you know, some kind of steadiness or balance, right? The more again, we don't have those other thoughts, intrusive thoughts, that come in, right, yeah, and or when, when they do, we can identify them like, Oh, these are intrusive thoughts. These are my thoughts. I don't have to believe them.

  14:38

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had Dr Lydia zaliska on the podcast, who wrote the book about ADHD and mindfulness, and, yeah, she was great, and she talked about that about, like, almost like clouds, like identifying, like negative self talk or or so, as you're doing, like a sitting practice. This, for example, or a body scan, or something you could think of like, you know, you hear a car horn in the in the distance, and you just think, you know, vehicle or car or whatever, but you're not, like identifying everything, but they then, even if you think like hunger, like I'm hungry, I need a burrito, maybe I'm hungry a burrito. Now that I said that thinking out loud, but that instead, it's just like hunger as a as a cloud, rather than a picture of a burrito, which is a really terrible analogy, maybe, but oh

  15:29

  no, no, no, that that's actually yeah. It's a great instruction. And she Yes, has a wonderful book, and part of the research that she did was based on Jon Kabat Zinn's yeah work. And now it's interesting, you know, that's been going on for almost 40 years. And now bringing in compassion to the mindfulness as a piece of the puzzle is so important because, yeah, it's like, well, we'll say, Oh, we're hungry, and then all of a sudden it's like, Oh, my stomach hurts and oh, I need to eat. And what if I don't eat? When am I going to eat? Yeah, right. Like, but instead just being like, okay, yeah, I'm hungry, and then sort of letting it pass, like clouds in the sky, like they come and they go, Yeah, but you know, if we follow that thought, and then we're like, oh, we're in pain, or we're suffering because we're hungry, then, you know, we're adding, we're layering on to that, that idea, that's where the second arrow analogy comes from. Yeah,

  16:32

  let's talk about that too, actually. And yeah, I'm a big also a big fan of Jon Kabat Zinn. I've been trying to get him on the podcast, but I don't know if he's going to join me or not. Oh, wow, that'd

  16:43

  be fantastic. Yeah,

  16:45

  I would love to have him on. Yeah. I mean, he was on with Rick Rubin. Come on. I'm Dave Delaney. Doesn't he know who I think I am? So hopefully, yeah, I don't know. You never know. You never know. But yeah, let's talk about the that, that second arrow, Buddhist philosophy. And as you said, it's right there in your name. You know second arrow, ADHD coaching,

  17:08

  yes, yes. So the there's a Buddhist parable of the second arrow, and in the teaching, it's the Buddha is trying to describe how we experience suffering, one way in which we experience suffering. And the first arrow represents the unavoidable pain or suffering that like throws at us, like we all experience suffering things are out of our control. You know, there's illness, there's loss, there's disability, right? And the second arrow symbolizes our mental or our emotional reaction to that pain or that situation itself, like the layering of anxiety or anger or judgment or shame. And while we can't avoid the first arrow, the suffering from the second arrow is optional, and that is what that's the view, as we talked about before, so the lesson of the second arrow is that we have the ability to minimal, minimize additional suffering, right, and manage how we respond to life's challenges and difficulties, and it encourages us to have, you know, awareness and emotional resilience and to reduce unnecessary or compounding distress or suffering. Yes,

  18:28

  so would you consider like, what we were describing earlier, like with reframing a thought as that second era, like choosing that, choosing it, instead of like, rather than dwelling on something negative, like being afraid to stand on stage and speak and instead reframing that feeling of fear into excitement,

  18:49

  right? And it's not about pushing it away or denying it. It's about, you know, noticing it, not judging it, not following it, but, yeah, allowing for it, you know, being aware of it because, you know, life is full of discomfort and uncertainty. It's completely inevitable, but we constantly are so resistant to it, and this is our interpretation, or our our judgment, right? That leads to increased suffering and like, we've got enough to deal with, you know. I mean, just, you know, getting old or sickness, or, you know, anything that that, like, you know, relationship, you know. So it's really about, yeah, that unnecessary or unhelpful thoughts that that are layered on top of the raw data or the raw day to day experience of this human existence, and

  19:44

  that does that weave into because you just did a presentation for Chad, right, which was emotional regulation. The foundation of ADHD care was that for

  19:54

  Chad, for atta, yes, yeah, Tad talks, they have like a funny little you. Know, riff on TED talks, and they're just 10 minutes. And yeah, they do, you know, one each day for the whole month of ADHD Awareness Month, October, which, yeah, and yeah, I, I did mine on emotional awareness as a contemplative practice, as a part of emotional regulation, which, which is really what, as I said before, I'm learning more and more each client that I work with, each year that this business, you know, it has like, I'm so grateful for being able to do this work with people. Yeah, and really emotional regulation, isn't I feel like, isn't talked about, enough isn't described. Enough isn't really worked on in coaching, you know, because everyone just said, Oh, that's really therapy work. But I don't agree, because, again, I think it's a lot of perspective, and there's a lot of cognitive reappraisal that we can do and view that we can see and understand about ourselves. And I think with mindfulness or with awareness, and those kind of practices, like emotional awareness itself, that is absolutely the foundation of managing and caring for ourselves and ADHD symptoms.

  21:18

  And do you think like, from an emotional regulation standpoint, like, if somebody is trying to get a get a better, perhaps, like, handle on their emotional or their emotions, in some cases, there's stuff that comes kind of that goes hand in hand with ADHD as a comorbidity, like anxiety or depression or something like that, which is obviously something that probably obviously needs, you know, clinical therapy as well as, as you know, assistance with coaching or who whomever. But tell me a little bit about like how, yeah, how, how it fits with like your your idea around emotional regulation, especially as it pertains to ADHD,

  22:02

  yeah, yeah. So just, just so we're clear our behavior is based on our emotions, and we kind of, we want to deny that, and emotional regulation is extremely difficult with most people with ADHD, and in order to understand our behavior like what we do or don't do, what we procrastinate, what we avoid, what we react from is based on our ability to self regulate, to to understand our emotion and in the emotional awareness practice that I Talk about in the Tad talk, it's really just about identifying the emotion, identifying the body sensations that are present when we experience that emotion, and then identifying the stories or the thoughts that we're telling ourselves with that emotion, right? So let me give you an example. So like I'm feeling angry. Let's say there's my emotional identification, and the body sensation with anger is like I feel this red hot burst of energy in my chest and in my face. I feel my neck tighten, you know, my fingers, maybe, you know, are like, tingly, maybe my jaw is clenched right, like, these are body sensations that might go along with anger. And then the story I'm telling myself is, like, this isn't fair. I don't want this to happen. Or, you know, this isn't right, or whatever, that Justice sensitivity right that we can feel so intensely. And so just by identifying those three and separating them, can help us then determine just what's happening. So again, the Awareness itself and the differentiation like we don't have to follow that story. We can just be with that anger for a moment and allow that anger to arise and it'll eventually fall. You know, we don't stay angry for more than what a few minutes, a few hours. You know, it might arise again, but we notice that it comes and it goes, or it gets more intense or less intense. And you can do this even with a really, you know, like excitement or joy, or any emotion that you'd want to move towards, just the emotional awareness of identifying, what does it feel like in the body? And then again, what's the story that goes along with this emotion?

  24:34

  Yeah, so when you're when you're coaching a client, let's say like, it's like a person running a business or or, you know what? What would that look like in a so they might be stressed out or angry, or what have you? Do you just kind of walk them through a meditation? Or do you guide them on a meditation? Or do you just walk them through the steps of like, maybe reframing and rethinking that to regulate those emotions?

  24:59

  Yeah, yeah, that's a that's a great question. Sometimes, yeah, we do practice and meditation type practices in the coaching session. Sometimes we, you know, I just ask them to stop and start the identification process. And that can be just to say it out loud. Sometimes it's helpful in determining then, you know, is there something I need to do with this, or is this something I need or doing? You know, do I want to change my behavior? It just really depends on that person's perspective. You know, how they're talking about themselves. Is it the shoulding? You know, are they shooting themselves, yeah, you know. And that word is, like a not allowed, yeah, in our coaching session. So, like, okay, so I put a mirror up and I say, hey, you know, just heard you say, should yeah? What is it? Is it that you want to do this? Is it that there's this expectation culturally or gender wise, or what is it that you know you feel like you want in this moment? What is it that you need? And so just processing through that too is sometimes helpful in the coaching realm, saying it out loud, processing through it, yeah, you know, it's part of that self speech that Dr Barkley talks about in terms of executive functioning. So all of the, you know, executive functioning skills need to kind of be online in order to emotionally regulate. And that's difficult enough, one by one, right, right, yeah, yeah. So, so it's kind of like that orchestra of has to work in this in the just the right way, just the right toe, just the right tempo, you know, just the right order to emotionally regulate. So it's really just about understanding ourselves, increasing that again, self awareness and compassion, and then working with whatever arises in the moment.

  26:59

  Yeah, it makes sense. It makes a lot of sense, and I find it interesting. I had a guest on recently, and he was talking about verb, the value of verbal, of actually just saying it out loud, and how we tend to that tends to serve us well when we actually just speak out loud. It's probably part of the reason why, like, I've talked about it on the show before, how, you know, I'll put in my air pods and walk down the street and I'll just talk to myself. I'll record a voice memo. So I'll actually be recording it so I can, like, go back to it later, but I'll record a voice memo to myself and talk to myself about whatever challenge I have. So maybe the the crazy, mad men you know, walking down the street, going talking to himself back in the day, was on to something, or maybe I am now that mad man, that's also a possibility. But I find that like, yeah, just saying it out loud, really does it really does help with with that, I've actually recently started talking a little bit more with chat GPT, being the nerd that I am, and have found that to be interesting, where I'm thinking through like business ideas and challenges I'm having. And so instead of recording the audio to myself. I actually ask chatgpt. I use GPT four, so I'm geeking out here for a sec, but and I'll talk to the app, and she will answer me, and I'll have a conversation, and she'll give me a bunch of ideas, and then I'll say, Well, this is too much like, I'm overwhelmed. And she's like, Well, would you like me to create a checklist for you. And I'm like, what? And so she makes a checklist. And great, yeah, but, but, of course, I mean, there's, there's plenty of danger in and I don't advise this for everybody, if you're not super savvy with the dangers of of, you know, such devices and things. I think there was just a story of a child unfortunately committing suicide after talking with a AI, yeah, that was just in the news. Yeah, not, it wasn't chat GPT. It was a different AI. But yeah, so there's a lot of danger there too. So yeah, yeah,

  29:15

  to you, for you to acknowledge how you were feeling in the moment with chat GPT, that's great. Dave, yeah, yeah. I mean, you said, like, I'm feeling overwhelmed, and then she suggested the checklist, like, that's awesome, yeah, that you identified your emotion and that she had, you know, a something that might be helpful, because that's also something that I do with my clients, is okay. So now that we know what's happening, now that we're aware of what's happening. So this is like an obstacle, maybe. And so what tools or strategies do we use in order to help us through this obstacle? Yeah,

  29:50

  that makes sense, because, and I know, for me personally, and I probably for everybody, I expect with ADHD, is overwhelm is. Is a common thing, and what happens is it's like, you know, the analysis paralysis, cliche, or whatever, but, but I think it, there is something to that where you get so overwhelmed, not with options to solve a problem, let's say, and there's all these different I was just talking about this with my therapist, actually, about like, you know, having all these different doors to choose from, and then deciding, okay, I'll walk into this door. But like, how far do I walk before giving up on whatever business idea it is, let's say, and realize, like, Okay, this isn't gonna work. So back out and go choose a different door. Or do I, like, keep walking down that hall until I reach some success or something. Yeah, totally. I actually

  30:44

  was having this, no, no, it's great. I was having this conversation with a client as well. And how do you balance the, you know, extremes, right? Because we can be either be sort of over simulated or under simulated. So it's like we can get overwhelmed or sort of were, you know, on the couch, not moving and binge watching. I had another client that told me she just binge watched Game of Thrones, wow, for the whole weekend. Okay, wow, right. Let's talk about that. Yeah. And so how do we know? Sometimes we get so deep in something, we can be sort of hyper focused, and then we we miss the red flags, or we missed the like exit door, right? Or there's something there that's kind of holding us in, yeah? But then also, how do we also know when it's like too many options, isn't really helpful to us, or isn't really beneficial to us, or we keep jumping, you know, from thing to thing. Is that more the shiny object, or is that more, you know, impulse, or is it this is just ADHD, and this we're going with what interests us or what our strengths are. So how do we find that balance in between?

  31:51

  Yeah, and I feel, I feel like I'm on the cusp of something in my career that's going to be like, next level, like, I'm excited about what's coming because with now knowing what I know about myself and receiving treatment and talking to experts and amazing people like yourself on the podcast, and learning about this stuff has helped me understand myself better. Like, the even the overwhelm point was something brought up, brought up by a therapist who brought it up, and I'm like, wait what? And, and also, just like reading books and learning from from folks about this stuff, that it's helped me kind of, yeah, realize that, like now that I now that I know this stuff, dare I say, I'm not going to say superpower. I actually, I've been on this, like, superpower thing lately where, like, I posted about it a couple places on social, and I've come up with a whole theory on the superpower phenomenon, which is, yeah, yeah. So, and you can comment or agree disagree. But my thinking is that if you can picture like a graph, I actually wrote a blog post about this for why squirrels. I can't remember if I published it yet, but after seeing Paris Hilton's recent video and her song about ADHD, she it occurred to me that those who say because there's always this argument of like, it's a superpower, it's not a superpower. Like Russ Barkley will be like, it's not a superpower. It's not, you know. But then others will say, Oh, it is. My theory is that the higher the more likely you say ADHD is a superpower, the more privilege you have. So and that can be everything from wealth to health to looks to social status, but the better you're off you are in the world from a from a status sort of level, the more you can pontificate that ADHD is a superpower, because you have complete freedom to do whatever you want, and that's a beautiful thing for an ADHD, or to just dive into all sorts of different creative outlets. But when you're like me, and you're like, oh, you know, I've got not one but two college tuitions to help pay for and and all the other things to consider, for me, it's like it's not a superpower, like it's holding me back from things. And it's not to say I hate, you know, ADHD, or I hate myself, or anything like that. I don't mean that, but I just mean that the more like you think of a Paris Hilton level of privilege and, hell yeah, that's why she's got a whole music video about it being a superpower. Thoughts, hmm,

  34:45

  well, I've also, yeah, that's, that's very interesting privilege. Could definitely be part of it. I'm not sure it's the whole thing. It's also just a lot of like, encouragement and support. Support. You know that someone would need to thrive, right? And that doesn't necessarily take fine, and maybe, maybe you mean more than just financial privilege, but, yeah, also, I heard that Paris Hilton went through a really difficult time at a treatment facility that was not above bar, and she had some really awful experiences, physical abuse, emotional abuse, things like that. So, you know, there were such complex beings. And you know, I think more than the conversation about superpower, I'm kind of interested in the conversation about neuro divergence or neuro diversity, because I think that's coming up a lot in the ADHD community, sure, and I've been reading more about that, trying to understand, Okay, so we're divergent thinkers. Yes, we're no diverse, although there are still so many people that struggle and feel that this is a disability, and feel that this is a disorder, and there's such a huge spectrum, and I think I'm beginning to understand that the neurodivergent community also acknowledges that, yeah, that there can be both, sort of yes, this can there can be positives, great positives. Oh, yeah, sure. Think, or what we, you know, the kind of opportunities that we might have because of the how our brain works, yeah. And at the same time, yeah, if we didn't have these struggles, where would we be education wise, or where would we be in life or in relationships? Yeah? And so I think going back to what you said about therapy is like bold things can be true, you know, in terms of how to how to think about it and your perspective. And I, I always encourage, you know, clients to also work with a therapist alongside of coaching. Because, sure, yeah, that can be some deep, you know, there, there's so much criticism from others and from ourselves, you know, and so much trauma that can happen as individuals. You know, from childhood really difficult to process, and if we're not also doing that work along with coaching, then, you know, we're going to get stuck at certain places. Yeah, I

  37:17

  do find there's this connection, too, between trauma and and ADHD and in that, not, not to say that, because I know, I think it was like Dr like Gabor Gabor Gabor Mate, or whatever his name is, who I mean, while he might do a lot of great stuff, I believe, You know, Russell Barclay actually like tore him apart because he had talked about he claims that trauma, I'm paraphrasing, because I don't know, I don't have it in front of me, but he basically claims that, like trauma can cause ADHD, and it's not accurate. It's, it's, it's false, unless it's like a head trauma of some sort, and that's very slim but, but typically, I do find there's an interesting connection between being raised like growing up with undiagnosed ADHD. Chances are pretty likely that you've experienced some sort of trauma through your life, whether it's through just, you know, to your point about teachers calling you an idiot or all sorts of different stuff, and I've been there, and then you're also prone to addiction and things like that, and I've dabbled with that at a younger age with undiagnosed ADHD. And then what you start to realize is it throws your life off a little bit. And then you start to realize that, oh, wait, like you also probably suffered at the hands of one or both of your parents in some sort of capacity of trauma, what? Because they probably were, there's like, a very high likeliness that one of your parents, or both had ADHD as well, because of the how hereditary it is. And so it starts to make you realize, like, Oh, okay. I mean for me personally, like, I mean my dad's dad and my mom's still kicking and would take us both in a bar fight. Stiff British, stiff upper lip, 88 years old and doing great. But it does make me a little more empathetic towards reflecting on our relationship and my dad's relationship with Me too, because my spidey sense would tell me both of them probably had ADHD or have Yeah,

  39:25

  so yeah. Did you feel like we all kind of do our best with the you know, information that we have, with the tools that we know, sure, yeah, with our experiences and, you know, I believe in sort of the basic goodness, right of humanity and and that we all are genuinely, you know, want to be kind and compassionate and understanding and but, of course, yeah, trauma and complex trauma. And, of course, ADHD itself. Can be a complex trauma diagnosis. And, you know, the sort of death of 1000 paper cuts kind of idea, you know, it's so complex. And we, I think, where we get stuck often is identifying with all of those things making it me like I am my ADHD, even, or I am my disability or I am my anxiety? Yeah, and that's part of that view and perspective as well, you know, can we see that, yes, we experience anxiety, and yes, we have fears and those are very real, and we've experienced trauma, and yeah, that also we are these incredible, you know, inventive dynamic, you know, yeah, yeah, a million different words, right? Of all the amazing, wonderful, creative, out of the box thinkers, you know, divergent thinkers, that that is also part of who we are. And so, yeah, that understanding of this, this is what's true verse, is this just in my mind, just my thoughts, right? Yeah, am I trying to convince myself of something that's actually not real or not true all the time, and it's

  41:10

  part of the love of I have for connecting with folks like this and doing this podcast. Because, you know, when I I joked that I came out of the Mental Health closet, as it were, when I went on Facebook after being diagnosed, I said, Hey everybody, guess what? I have ADHD so but I got all these messages from friends from my like, punk rock days of like, going to shows and things like that. And a lot of friends from back then started messaging me, saying, basically, like, you wouldn't believe how many of us also have ADHD, or probably have ADHD. And it makes so much sense, you know, talking about the creativity, and, you know, like, like, it's just so rampant in artists and and music, and, you know, from a punk rock background. You know, certainly there are so many songs now that I think of and like war inside my head by suicidal tendencies or, or, you know, or my war by black flag, or, you know, all these songs start popping into my head, hyperactive child by jello, by our Dead Kennedys. All those lyrics are like, Oh my god, like all of these people had or have ADHD, like jello by offers come out and said he has ADHD. Henry Rollins has said he has ADHD, like Ian Mackay from minor threats and he is, and Fugazi says he has ADHD, I think, like, it's, it's, it's incredible. But I mean, so much of the soundtrack of my life, and I believe yours, too. I think we talked a little bit about that last time comes from artists who with either treated or untreated or undiagnosed, even ADHD, what are your thoughts with that, that connection?

  42:58

  Yeah, it's amazing, right? And I think, like, I've always connected. That's part of the community that we've talked about, right? The ADHD community is like, yeah, when you see someone that's like you, or you hear something that resonates in this way, there's this deep sense of connection. And that community, that ADHD community, is like, it's so present, right, where we just feel like we can be ourselves, we can be our true, authentic, genuine selves, and we don't have to mask or be something different or be more typical. And yeah, I think that's why, yeah, we connect with each other, we connect with the music, we connect with Yeah, at friends and relationships. And so many people in my life also have ADHD, you know, and, of course, my family, so it's like, that's what I grew up with, too, right? So, yeah, there are these, like, say it how it is, like, in your face, kind of, you know, Jewish family, right? So, very philosophical at the table, like, arguing, is this just a part of conversation, you know, kind of, kind of way. So, yeah, yeah. I think it's, it talks to our deep sense of connection with each other and community.

  44:08

  Yeah, I once had a boss. You mentioned Jewish family. I once had a boss. He was Jewish, and I gave him i i said something, I gave him this guilt about something. And I said, I'm sorry, man, I said it's this Irish Catholic guilt. And he's like, Dave, I'm Jewish, and I have a mother. And I was like, oh touche. I was like, because they're like, the Irish Catholic guilt is pretty extreme. It's pretty high on the level. But like, Jewish mom, you win, all right, but you get the lock guys and blintzes and so that makes everything better. And Oi. I mean, OI is, like, the best word, like, if for like, I've tried to borrow and use OI as much as possible, because, like, Oi cavalie, like, there's like, so many oys, man, I love it. Yeah. Let. Folks know how to get a hold of you and learn more about what you do. And, yeah,

  45:04

  yes. Thank you so much, Dave. It was a pleasure talking to you. It's always a pleasure talking to you. I'm so glad we were able to connect. And thank you for having me. Yeah, my website is second arrow, ADHD coaching.com, you can sign up for, you know, free consultation, or just get some resources if you're interested in you know, information, podcasts, other than Dave's wonderful podcast articles, organizations that yeah are just helpful tools and strategies to Yeah, help us with our ADHD. All

  45:36

  right, Dana, well, thank you so much. This has been fun. Thank you, Dave.