PODCAST. ADHD Problem Solving and Externalized Thinking with Jeff Copper.

Jeff Copper, DigCoaching.com.

In this insightful episode, our Chief Wise Squirrel, Dave Delaney, interviews Jeff Copper, an ADHD and attention coach from DigCoaching.com. Jeff specializes in helping adults with ADHD understand their challenges with executive function. Jeff breaks down complex ADHD-related issues into digestible and actionable advice, focusing on real-world problem-solving.

ADHD as a Problem-Solving Impairment

Jeff Copper explains that ADHD is more accurately viewed as an executive functioning impairment, primarily affecting problem-solving abilities. Many tasks that seem simple, such as getting a Mother's Day card, become problematic because people with ADHD struggle with breaking down ambiguous tasks into clear, actionable steps. Jeff emphasizes that procrastination often results from the ambiguity surrounding tasks rather than a lack of willpower.

Externalizing Thinking and the Importance of Talking Out Loud

For many ADHD individuals, "not to talk is not to think." Jeff highlights how verbalizing thoughts helps people with ADHD process information more effectively. Whether dictating notes or having conversations, externalizing thoughts is an essential accommodation that many unknowingly use. Dave shares his experience of verbally processing ideas while writing his book, highlighting how his wife played a critical role as a sounding board, which Jeff suggests was less about accountability and more about problem-solving through conversation. You can find Jeff’s interview with Dave here.

Cognitive Ergonomics: A New Approach to ADHD Coaching

Jeff introduces his unique ADHD intervention, "Cognitive Ergonomics from the Inside Out." He likens it to engineering, helping people design accommodations that suit their individual needs. This approach focuses on reducing cognitive load and making thinking easier rather than relying solely on behavioral strategies. Jeff's coaching method emphasizes asking the right questions to help clients understand their own challenges and come up with solutions.

The Hidden Impact of Technology on ADHD

Jeff cautions that while many look to apps and technology for ADHD support, these tools can often exacerbate executive function impairments. Tools like calendars or apps meant to organize can place additional strain on working memory, a common challenge for ADHD individuals. Jeff suggests hybrid approaches, such as printing out digital to-do lists to work off physical copies, to reduce cognitive overload.

Verbal Processing and Accountability Misunderstood

A key point Jeff raises is the misconception around accountability. While many believe that being held accountable means having someone check in regularly, he explains that for ADHD individuals, it's often the act of talking through tasks that help clarify thinking and solve problems rather than the traditional concept of accountability.

Tips for Wise Squirrels.

• Remove Ambiguity: When you find yourself procrastinating, ask, "What's hard about this?" Break down the task until the ambiguity is gone.

• Externalize Your Thinking: Use tools like dictation apps, voice memos, or even conversations with a friend to verbally process your ideas and tasks.

• Paper as a Tool: Consider using paper for tasks that require heavy working memory, such as note-taking or organizing thoughts. It's easier to visually spread out information compared to digital tools that can increase cognitive load.

Jeff Copper’s Resources:

• Website: DigCoaching.com
  Here, you can access Jeff's podcasts, videos, and learn more about his coaching approach, including his Cognitive Ergonomics program.

• Attention Talk Radio & Video: Jeff’s platforms where he dives deeper into ADHD challenges, executive functioning, and how to make thinking easier for ADHD individuals.

If you’ve ever struggled with ambiguity, procrastination, or feeling like technology is more of a hindrance than a help, this episode is packed with insights you can apply immediately. Tune in to hear more about Jeff’s unique approach to ADHD and executive function coaching.

• Transcript

  0:00

  I'm an ADHD and attention coach. I help those that have been diagnosed with ADHD, usually later in life, but sometimes people that were diagnosed as kids, and really what I do is try to help them begin to understand ADHD things as an executive functioning impairment, and help them understand what accommodations they need in order to achieve what they're capable of, much like what an athletic coach would help somebody do. Yeah, that's great. And yeah, you had me on your show a while back, and we talked about

  0:30

  writing my book new business networking when I was undiagnosed

  0:36

  and untreated, obviously, as well. So and yeah, how my god bless my wife, because I wouldn't have been able to do it without her, for sure. But I have learned a lot about that experience in writing as well during that time, like, for example, the fact that because I was contractually obliged to write the book with my publisher, I'd signed a contract and had a book deal and in advance and all that, because I did all that, I actually like was legally obliged to deliver the book. And I actually, and I had these deliverable dates that I had to have, you know, chapters to the editor by and so on. And having those dates, knowing what I know now about ADHD,

  1:20

  I think that was the big key thing that had me stay on task because I had to get those deliverable dates. Is that something you experience with accountability and just setting goals and that kind of thing? Well, actually, the world sees it that way. But in my experience as a coach and interviewing some of the experts and understanding of executive functions. What's interesting is what I see after my experience is slightly a little bit different. So let's kind of pause here just slightly for a second. People look at ADHD and they see it as a focus problem, as if you're not doing what you need to do if you really understand it. And Dr Russell Barkley has a brilliant model that defines very specifically what executive functions are, individually and collectively, and how they work together. ADHD is far more of a problem solving impairment than most people realize. If you take a look at your procrastination list, I could without even seeing it, I can probably say 80% of it. There's one commonality among all of the 80% is it's multifaceted and ambiguous, and so that's a bit of a challenge. And so people with ADHD don't realize is that they really need help accommodating problem solving. And what happens is, is they they get there, but they're not really aware of some of the invisible stuff that takes place. And so having a deadline is there. But as you get a little bit closer, people, I find will regress back to whatever is cognitively the most efficient. And if I remember correctly from our interview, is you would do a lot of talking out loud with your wife writing with regard to the book. Now, non verbal working memory is basically an executive function, according to Dr Barkley model, Barkley model, and it's impaired. So people, often people with ADHD not to talk, is not to think. So instinctively, they will talk out loud to solve their own problems. So symptomatically, what people see is, oh, my God, I got it done near the deadline. As a coach, I always say, let's pay attention to what you did at the deadline, because what happens is you actually regress to the most efficient way for you to do something and to kind of help you get a grip. Term. I was coaching a guy one time and kind of mergers and acquisitions, and I was talking with the guy, and he basically said, Yeah, I'm verbal we call verbal process. There's people that talk out loud, and then one day he walks in, oh, my god, last week was brutal. There was this huge deadline, God, that we just the deadline that kind of got us through it. And I said, that's just a bunch of malarkey. And he's like, What do you mean? I said, what'd you do? He said, Well, I got my whole team in a conference room. I said, Okay, I bet you did 9590 98% of the talking. He said, Well, yeah, did because I'm a leader. I said, No, you weren't. You're just talking out loud. And he was arguing with me for a little bit. And then finally he goes, Wow, I guess that you're right. He said, but I can't bring 15 people into a conference room every time I've got something I've got to do. I said, What do you mean? You've been doing your entire life? And he didn't really think about like, oh, I use the deadline as the reason to bring 15 people in. And so I'm bringing this back to you in as much as that, there's invisible stuff that happens out there, and people with ADHD, again, it's more of a problem solving impairment. Whenever you've got something that you're trying to problem solve, it's so cognitively difficult, you'll have an urge to escape it and go do something else. So it looks like a focus problem. But a lot of times, people are not really trying to to resolve the underlying issue. How do you make thinking easier? So with you, it's, you know, it's interesting how you're you. You credit so much of your success to your wife, and I would too, because it sounds like a lot of times that you were actually problem solving and thinking out loud that actually helped you get through the book. Yeah, that's.

  5:00

  A long winded answer, but I wanted to give context for people to understand, kind of what, what examples to see how that plays out. So what you're saying is, and it's a great summary and description, because I think, yeah, a lot of ADHD ers, and of course, as we've talked about many times on the show here, you know, it's not, it's not always the same, of course, far from it, but, but with ADHD, often we verbally think out loud, yes, yeah. And it's interesting that way, because, you know, as a it's funny, you know, because one of the things I do, so I've, I might have talked about it on the show before, but so I've been and like you, I've been podcasting you. You've had your show for what, 15 years? Yeah, that's amazing, yeah, yeah, and so, and we'll talk about that too. Next year will be my 20th year podcasting, however, so I started my first show in oh five, but I've had like seven shows. So had I been diagnosed with ADHD way earlier, I probably would have had like, one show and like Joe Rogan money or something by now, without, you know, platforming freaks.

  6:09

  But I raised that because with podcasting and I studied radio broadcasting back in the day. So I love talking, obviously, and with my AirPods, often I will just walk down the street recording voice memos to myself talking out loud. And I'm doing it in part to just record my ideas and to think out loud, as you're saying. And I find it helps really well. And we live in a wonderful time where I can walk down the street with these little white things in my ears, which indicates I'm probably talking on the phone and not completely nuts.

  6:48

  So that's a great hack for our listeners today. Like you can plug in your headphones, whatever kinds you use, and talk amongst yourselves, and you are you talk to yourself, and you won't have to worry. Yeah. So, so I have a slightly different version. I use a service called Copy talk.com

  7:05

  and it's basically, I walk around with my phone and I've got a deal. I pay $80 a month, and I can dictate for four minutes, all you can eat during a month, right? And so for me, whenever I have like an idea, I just grab the phone and I'll just dictate to capture that idea. What happens is it gets recorded in some human somewhere, transcribes and emails it to me. So I'm not walking down the street with my podcast recording it, but what we're doing is relatively simple. I'm verbalizing that when I'm talking about because a few reasons. Number one is because my working memory is limited. I can talk far faster than I can write so I can get it out, whereas if I'm writing it, I'll forget half of what I was thinking in the process of trying to get it down on paper. But I think what you described and what I'm describing are good. Illustration is that those are accommodations, because people with ADHD are intelligent, not quite as intelligent as verbal I mean our neurotypicals, but pretty cool. I mean, close enough to say it's the same. The difference is, is we struggle more problem solving inside our head, yeah, where we need to do it outside our head, which is what I alluded to earlier, the accommodations piece of it. And, you know, I got diagnosed with dyslexia when I was nine, and didn't get the ADHD diagnosis till I got I think I was in my 30s at the time, but the thing about when I got into my business was everybody's like, you got to make a name for yourself, and you should be writing a book or a blog. And writing is incredibly difficult for me because it requires a lot of working memory, which is part of executive functions. And so I said, Well, I should do that, but I'm not going to. So I started my podcast, because it's a hell lot easier for me to talk with somebody. I mean, I got good content, but when I'm writing it and trying to have to kind of put it through the funnel of my brand and kind of getting down, it's more difficult where it's more casual, I can have a conversation with you, an intelligent conversation with you, and get good ideas across, because I'm externalizing it, and I'm not doing it inside of my head. And so when I found podcast, and then later YouTube, it was a God sent to me because of my peers that were supposed to write books and blogs back in 2007 when I started, I think maybe the they've sold me 25,000 books. Well, I've had like 5 million downloads of my content over that period of time, all right, through the same channels. And I think the point really is, is that was the accommodation. I did it my way, and was able to achieve what I was capable of by just kind of getting that kind of competition to do a little bit differently. Yeah, that's great. And what did you start so you were diagnosed around 30, and dyslexia is certainly a comorbidity of ADHD, oftentimes like anxiety and depression and many other things. Tell me a little bit about your business in in coaching, or even before that, what were you doing that led you to start coaching before let's kind of back up. Yeah, there's a little bit of a misnomer about dyslexia. People think of it's like reverse and stuff. It's really a coding or income.

  10:00

  Coding Problem with slight variations among people. So really practically, when I'm reading something and I see a B, I might retrieve a D. So if I'm reading something, it says, Boy, I might read doy. Well, you get to the end of the sentence, it doesn't make any sense, right? So you're having to go back and cognitively, it's a lot of effort just to code and decode the words, so it makes it really difficult to do all that and to comprehend what you're talking about. So I'm saying that as a backdrop, because I was diagnosed with that at age nine, and it followed me for many, many years, and it's probably the bigger part of my impairment, that piece of it. So fast forward, because of that parent, I probably wouldn't have gotten into college at all, had I not been a scholarship athlete, and when I got there, fortunately, I had unlimited tutors. It's kind of funny. I went to a major university with 35,000 students. I think my sophomore year, first semester, I had the highest tutoring bill on campus. Needless to say, I got out. I got a job. I'm in the pension insurance business, selling group health insurance, life, disability, pension investments administration, and it kind of worked its way through over the years, and I went to a couple different companies and ended up getting my MBA, and then had kids at that point in time without born here. But bottom line is, at one point in time, my ex had risen the corporate world, and we were basically traveling all the time. Nobody's around. Our kids are there a nanny? So I took off to be Mr. Mom for a little bit, which I conceived the coaching practice. So I got into it. And the idea was really to kind of build a business that could grow as my kids could get older, which is more or less kind of what took place. And when I got into coaching, which is, I'm a trained life coach that specialize in neurodiverse what was fascinating to me is the great thing about coaching, is

  11:48

  behavioral coaching, where you're walking and telling people what to do. But I'm really a life coach. My job is to ask questions, to help people figure out what they already know. And the cool thing about that is, all I have to do is show up. There's really no planning. There's a skill of learning to ask right questions, but it was really, really helpful for me to get into that, because it did require a lot of forethought and planning. Like I said, I could just show up and be who I could be. So I'm gonna pause here to see if you get questions on it so far. No, I love it. It's great. So as far as coaching goes, you know, how do you you know, a big part of ADHD, at least in my experiences, is the accountability piece, right? Like being held accountable, as I mentioned with those you know, dates and things of deliverables, is that some of what you do with your clients is to hold them accountable or accept set goals, that kind of thing. Actually, I don't Okay everybody. I want to be kind of clear, because, yes, I'm not confrontational. Actually tell you what kind of work backwards on something so that we can understand. Yeah, please.

  12:46

  I interviewed Dr Russell Barclay for the first I saw him speak in 2010 but I interviewed him for the first time in 2011 who, I think he's the foremost expert on the world of ADHD, yeah. And He came out at in 2010 basically saying this, we got a problem here, because we know that ADHD is the issues in the prefrontal cortex. We know that's where executive functions are, but if you take a test for executive functions, ADHD doesn't show up as an impairment. So he, like, went through seven different arguments to argue that ADHD has to be an executive function impairment. It's in the prefrontal cortex, so either it's not or the tests were all wrong. So you start to look at the test and there was no definitive definition of what an executive function was or not. So he set out to define specifically what what was and was not executive function. He started with self regulation. So that said, he built a model that I started studying over the years, and the thing was absolutely brilliant. I've added something called attention scope, and I actually have a new ADHD intervention called cognitive ergonomics from the inside out. So very much an engineering approach. So working backwards, understanding the model and understanding ADHD as an executive function impairment and working with it backwards. Our world has a tendency to observe behavior and judge it based off what it what it is, and without the right technology, that's all we can do. Having Dr Barclays model with specific definitions in my attention scope as a means to see it. I see things really, really differently, like I had described to you earlier, about you talking deadline and talking to your wife to get it done, it looked like the deadline, but really was the talking out loud, was the accommodation that helped you accommodate that. So over the years, working again, I see ADC as much more of a really a problem solving impairment, which we can talk about and a little bit. And quite frankly, when people call me up and they want coaching, I always ask them, what's your expectation of what I'm going to do to help you? And it's interesting, because sometimes I get good questions, and often I'll get I need accountability, in which case I say, Well, why don't you go call your mother, if you really think about it, having somebody say, did you do it? Did.

  15:00

  You do it? Did you do it? Did you do it? Yeah, after a while you actually kind of run away from that a little bit. And then I also go to tip tricks and strategies, because most people are drowning in tips, tricks and strategies, because the tip trick or strategy like an equation, yeah, E equals MC squared is a great equation, but it's not going to solve for the sides of a right triangle. You need the Pythagorean theorem. So with all that said, I don't help people with accountability. Now, when people look at interacting people, you could be talking to your wife about what you need to do to write the next chapter in the book. People might judge that as accountability, but what's really, really happening is you're actually talking out loud, if somebody's with you, and they're saying, Did you do it? Did you do it? Did you do it? Did you do it? Did you do it? You'll find most people with a DAC. They might try that for a while, but at some point in time, they start avoiding it. At some level, if they're sitting there and they're talking about what they're doing,

  15:54

  not necessarily accountability, they're just talking out loud. In other words, remember not to talk is not to think. So sometimes we mislabell what we think is accountability, which is really where somebody's actually got a thinking partner. Oh, that's interesting. So just by saying it out loud, as you said, it's, it's helping them remember the tasks that they've agreed to do, or they plan to do, or, you know that, but, but it's, it's almost like you're a sounding board in a sense, in that way, yeah, and so, so you're going to start to notice, I'm going to give you lots of examples, that what's working is not what we see. So I was, I'll never forget this, about 10 years ago. I'm in Tampa, Florida, and I get a lot of phone calls in December because people gone to school for their first semester. You know, they were the Eagle Scout, age student, whatever, and now they're on academic probation, and this is one of them, and this woman shows up, let's meet in a Starbucks, and we're sitting there talking. I can tell this kid is very verbal. When we people with ADHD that talk out loud a lot. We call them verbal processors. I'm not so sure it's the greatest word, but that's what we call them. And somewhere in the conversation it comes up. The kids got a time coach him at school. And I said, I bet you that works really, really good when you're with a coach, but when you're not, doesn't work very well. And it was interesting, because the mother's eyes were like, bucking out, like, oh my god, yeah, because you're looking at the situation and you're, you're, you have a calendar in front of you. What's working isn't the calendar, it's the kid talking about what's going on that's working.

  17:28

  So we look at the here's the calendar, and this is what you should be doing with the calendar. But the kid's not cognitive, not engaged with the kind he's not actually thinking about. It's just words on a page. So when I said that, I said that, I said, it's real simple. It's all he has to just call him up and say, hey to your son, what do you got going on today? And subsequent to that, like, two weeks later, she called me up. She said, Oh my God, that's exactly what was really going on. And so again, in my world, when I'm looking at these types of situations, I'm looking at some some stuff, and there's the symptomatic view of what's taking place. But a lot of times, when you really understand the executive function, what's really working often isn't what you see. It's often something else. So I'm gonna kind of pause, see if there's any any comments or questions on that. No, that's interesting. So when you're with a client, are you because when I when I think of, you know, saying things out loud, I need to go back and just as you mentioned, like transcribing your own notes, verbal notes and things, tell me, like, Where does working memory come into that? So, like, you're in a session with a client that you're letting them do the bulk of the talking. They're explaining the things they need to do. But working memory here will make it go in one ear out the other if they don't record what they need to do from what they've shared with you, there's there's two things. One is talking through something like, for some people, like, if you go on to Netflix and you search explained the mind, or whatever, I think the second episode is about people that can memorize like, 5000 numbers in like a couple minutes and recite them back. If you go listen to the people that do that, they memorize the numbers by imagining themselves going on a fictitious story. It's the story that helps them remember the numbers, not just the rote memory. And I'm sharing this with you because sometimes you'll ask somebody with ADHD a question. And they can't answer your question. They have to tell you a story in order to get to the question. And the reason for that is it's cueing their mind. You Dave, you have lots of knowledge in the back of your head, but sometimes you need some type of a cue somebody to say something or ask you something for you to retrieve that knowledge, and so as they're telling the story, that's enabling them to work their way through, to get to the answers. So that's like a journey following the same make sense so far? Yeah, absolutely. So let's do an attention exercise real quick so that we can begin to understand more about what working really is. Working memory is.

  20:00

  To do a problem. So do you remember exponents like two to the power of three? So two times two times? Oh, yeah, maybe eight. Sure. Okay, without using your hands or your toes or anything, can you calculate three to the power of five?

  20:17

  Like three times? I'm terrible at math, by the way, so three times five. Is that? What you're asking me three times three times three times three times three. Oh, no, I can't,

  20:27

  right? This

  20:28

  is kind

  20:31

  of, I mean, I could, but like, it would be a longer show. No, no, no, no, no. This is, this is I like, so understand to do this. It's three times three, yeah, times three is 27 Yeah, times three, not everybody. A lot of people start struggling at that point in time. Yeah. What's happening is you're trying to keep track of the calculation, and

  20:50

  you're having to try to keep track of how many times you've multiplied three by itself, right? So when you get to that 81 to three times 27 to get people start to struggle a little bit. So what you're having to do is you're having to do is you're having to hold a calculation in mind and keep track of the number of times you've multiplied it times three. With me, that's working memory. You're using that inside your head in order to get to a goal. The answer would be 243,

  21:16

  makes sense so far. But that's not what was really cool about what just happened. Remember earlier, I told you, ADHD is really more of a problem solving impairment, yes. Now, emotions, is it? Emotional regulation is an executive function, right? Self awareness, emotional regular, self restraint. So when you are confronted with something that's difficult, you have an emotional urge to escape. And so did you notice reflexively, you said, I suck at math or I can't do it? Yes, you didn't even try it. Right?

  21:48

  Try it. Yeah, you need to try it.

  21:54

  Here's my point. I said earlier, if you take if I took a look at your procrastination, there's probably 80% is multifaceted and ambiguous. It's hard to bring clarity something's ambiguous. So what do you do? You reflexively go do something else. Right? Looks like a focus problem. It's really a thinking impairment. So you have a and we'll just put this on a shelf for a second. Let's come back to another example. So I'm coaching a guy one time, and

  22:23

  he's like, I need to get my mother, my mom, a Mother's Day card. Now that's the statement of a goal. You with me. Now, the issue really is, is people with ADHD, they write lists all over the here's my goal, here's my goal, here's my goal, but here's where the impairment is. You have to actually think through what you have to do to get it. Remember saying thinking is probably harder than most people realize with ADHD, and there's urge to escape. So this guy says this stuff, and I know that there's a thinking impairment, says, we're gonna get the card

  22:55

  the store. I said, Really? What store?

  22:59

  Notice reflexively, he said store. When I said, what store? Did that change the game?

  23:07

  Well, I guess I could get at the Hallmark store. Great.

  23:12

  Where's that down the road? Really? How far I'm not 10 minutes when you go and buy it.

  23:22

  I don't know. I really don't go that way. Oh, so you need to make a special trip. It's 10 minutes to get to the store. It's 25 minute round trip just to get the card. So Dave, here's what I want you to notice. He said, I need to get a Mother's Day card. But he didn't stop and do the thinking, the problem solving of, where am I going to get the card?

  23:44

  How long is it going to take for me to get the card? By the way, we're not even gotten to the stamp yet. You follow what I'm saying,

  23:52

  thinking through those individual tasks to actually get the Mother's Day card. That's where the ADHD impairment shows up. It's not defining the goal, right? It's, oh, I'm going to get this store. It's going to take me 25 minutes. When am I schedule? Am I going to go do that at a time when the store is open? Now, when you were doing the book, you would have concepts or thoughts for a chapter that were kind of half baked, but in a sense, you're talking to your wife and working your way through. Oh, I've got to get a Mother's Day card. Oh, I'm going to get at the Hallmark store. When am I going to find 25 minutes so far?

  24:30

  So we have, on one level, you have sometimes people just they need to talk, to think through, to, like, tell a story, to remember something.

  24:41

  Then there's the I'm problem solving, where we did the exponents, but more often not, what people with AD need. And what I'm doing in a coaching exercise, I'm saying, Oh, really, we're going to get the card as I'm asking those questions, I'm cueing them by asking the question, right? And then they're thinking about it if I didn't ask the question.

  25:00

  Question, they wouldn't actually stop and think about it. So as I ask these questions, believe it or not, I am the accommodation, because I'm actually helping them. Think that makes sense? Yeah, absolutely. So earlier, I alluded to this new intervention I've got called cognitive ergonomics from the inside out, and it's, it's a it's an engineering approach to ADHD, and it's defining accommodations that are not of this world. Literally having somebody like, you know, you waking up in your day, and somebody would call you and say, okay, Dave, what do you need to do today? What order you need to put it in? What's going to be hard? What could get in the way you see the vagueness of my questions,

  25:39

  you'd be surprised at how much that will help you think through your day.

  25:44

  So what you're saying is like, if I have a big task or a big project to work on,

  25:51

  I talk about it out loud, preferably with a person, but at least recording it and transcribing it. But So I talk about it out loud, and I'm assuming here that I am breaking things down to each individual step, yeah, because remember, if you don't actually say the words, you don't actually think about it, right? Because it's too hard, right? This is the, this is the hard part where people have a hard time kind of conceptualizing. You have thoughts in your mind about I need to think about it. But you actually don't ever get to the oh, this is the store I need to go to. Oh, this is how long it's gonna take. Oh, this is the day of the week that I can go do it. Yeah, and are you saying for people who are doing this to like, is it like, if I'm doing this myself, let's say, am I jotting down these notes so that I remember? Because I'm still like, maybe I'm stuck on this remembering piece that, if somebody is not recording it, but you're still talking to yourself at your desk, like, Okay, this is what I need to do today. Do you recommend writing it down or so? There's, there's the this, this is what I need to do today. That's a brain dump of gold. Okay? They have a hard time doing what's listed, right?

  27:06

  In other words, they have a hard time thinking, Okay, where am I going to get the card? How long is it going to take? What time of day am I going to do that? I guess what I'm saying is that at some point you realize, okay, it's my mother's birthday coming up. So you've, you've accomplished, I mean, you, you've established that fact somehow by, like, looking at your calendar or getting a reminder, Hey, your mom's birthday is coming up in a month, you better go buy her a cart, right? So, like, something has triggered that thought and and so once that thought has been triggered, what next? Well, this is what what next is, a lot of people have that thought they put on a piece of paper, and they never get they never go do it, yeah, because they never think about

  27:50

  it. This is kind of catching a little bit off guard. But again, not to talk is not to think. It's, it's like I, one of the things that I tell people is 80% of your procrastinate is rooted in ambiguity. With me so far, yeah. And they'll say, well, the internet says to chunk it down. Isn't that a way to

  28:10

  remove the ambiguity? I go, Yeah, but it doesn't work much out. No, no, you said, you said, you just said that 80% of my procrastination is rooted in ambiguous Yes.

  28:21

  You also said that if I chunk it down, that will remove the ambiguity. Yes, but now you're saying it doesn't work. Yes,

  28:30

  Jeff, you're confusing me. It's real simple. Because people go back to their office or their desk and they think they're going to do it in their head. They never do it. That's where the impairment lies. It works when they do it with somebody that externalize it, but it doesn't work because think of it like this, Dave, my eyesight is impaired.

  28:53

  There's no amount of behavioral training that's going to enable me to read something. However, if I wear my glasses, which is an accommodation, I can read so often what people are missing with ADHD. There's a lot of people who go out there know a lot about it, but they don't want to have to talk out loud, or they don't want to need help. But you'll notice is that when they do that, it works just like the guy I explained earlier about the deadline, right? Every time he talks out loud, he solves problems with other people. He actually was in a job where basically he got to the office and they were lined up take a number down the street. That's all he did all day. I've coached lots of people that were really, really successful, and they got the diagnosis. So they started having problems when they started working out of the house by themselves, because when they ran into a moment of ambiguity,

  29:38

  they got up to go get a cup of coffee and never went back. Does that make sense so far? Yeah, there's a little bit new to you, but you can start to connect the dots on this stuff a little bit, because everybody sees ADHD as a focus problem. It is, but the underlying problem is when you have to solve for something that's multi faceted and ambiguous. So in other words, you have to.

  30:00

  Make that thinking easier. If you do that, it works. If you don't, people stay stuck.

  30:06

  So what are some other tips for working professionals to because to your point, by the way, I mean, you're making great, great points here. And I think you know a lot of what I've learned is that, you know that ADHD diagnosis has increased a lot, not because more people have ADHD suddenly, but because, especially since the pandemic, when people were working from home and their quote, unquote, scaffolding fell away, and suddenly they didn't have their assistant in the office, or they didn't have people in the office. They were working from home, and now they're dealing with distractions from their pets or families and so forth, and everything's kind of up in the air. So we've all still been, you know, getting used to working from home or in some sort of hybrid model or remote or whatever. So what are, what are some tips or thoughts about about overcoming that, or working with that? Number one, I don't think it's overcoming anything, right? Like that's, that's one of the one interesting fallacies. But one area that that is, like completely invisible is,

  31:10

  I call it toggling.

  31:12

  When an exercise that I have sometimes is, I'll give them a website for one we go to they have to kind of log in on the website, and I'll send them a really complicated password and a PDF.

  31:23

  I forbid them to print the PDF, to write the password down, or to use two screens, or to split screen. They've got to flip back and forth between the website and the PDF. They've got to look at the password. And I've got a password that's not It's not like Jeff copper.com, right? Yeah, gibberish, that. And I want them to go back and forth. Because what they have to do is they have to look at the characters, and they have to hold that in their working memory while they click over to the website. Often, they will forget some of the characters they're going back and forth. This pisses them off.

  31:58

  I've done it. It's cognitively difficult, yeah, but what I've just described to you is our world today is forcing everybody into these really small screens and increasing the amount of toggling now working memory and holding things in your working memories on executive function, and it's impaired. I have a lot of people walking in saying, Do you have an app for that. I'm like, the app is actually the problem. Like, I actually had an organization reach out to me that wanted to advertise some ADB friendly app on my my podcast, and I did a little bit of research on it. They claimed it was good for people with ADT because it was very visual, yet it only was delivered by the phone. I'm like, okay, so you had a really good idea, but the very device that you're delivering this through is rendering it useless. Yeah, because you've got somebody with an impaired working memory, and you're using a tool that is actually worse. Dr, Thomas Brown has got a great quote. I love it. He used to say it's like watching a basketball game through a telescope.

  33:01

  Could you imagine sitting in the stands and you walk into like an arena, right? You can't see anything, but you're sitting there, all you can do is look through one hole of a telescope, and you can see maybe a three inch circle. And every once a while there's some flashes and stuff go by, but you have no idea there's a basketball game going on, right? And so I'm saying this because a lot of people with ADHD, they don't realize it, because technology is over glamorized, like, oh my god, this app's going to save your problem. And I find a lot of people are moving in that direction. We'll pause for a second. I did interview with Dr Russell Barkley in 2018 I have dudes Google attention, talk radio, GPS, and we were talking about executive function, what he was doing, and then I was talking about what I do. It was really cool, because by the end of the interview, we basically said paper is really high tech. For many people with ADHD, you can spread it all out, yeah. And so your situation is, Jeff, like, How can you let people help with this stuff? And a lot of things in this world are bullying people with ADHD to go to things that, by definition, are making the symptoms even worse. So the question is, are there more people with ADHD, or are we being pushed in to this technology that's taken people that are on the margin that were high functioning and now tipping the scales where they're having a hard time with that. I'm arguing is that a lot of the things that we're being pushed to do is is taking the people that were on the fringe, taxing them to the point in time now they're going to the stimulants, or getting that diagnosis, the accommodations. And this is like invisible, like nobody's actually acknowledging that this is a problem. Yeah, it's almost like sending an alcoholic to a bar for you know what? I mean, for a reason. I mean, that's, that's the essence, really. And, I mean, there's a lot of correlation there between that analogy, because of addictive technologies, and something that I know a lot about, as far as design of devices and and I.

  35:00

  Algorithms and how these things are made. In order to do that, like, for example, just very quickly on my phone, I've set it up so that I have gray scale automatically on all the time, so so that way the shiny colors of apps and notifications don't distract me, and notifications are turned off.

  35:18

  So yeah, there's a lot to be said there. Yeah, so let's, let's kind of talk about this, because this, we're going to take what we're talking about on steroids. And so I do want to share this story,

  35:29

  because Dr Barclay is the one who put scaffolding out there, the words all over the place. I asked people, what exactly do you mean? And nobody can really ever answer the question. It's a figurehead that you need accommodations, but nobody looks at it. But I want to tell this story because it was, it's, it's the best way that I could really articulate this. And this is right before lockdown. I'm coaching a woman. She comes in, it's the second call, and I'm saying, Okay, I want you to go take a look at everything you're procrastinating on, which you come back, because I identify what's ambiguous about it? And she was emphatic, nothing. It's all fear. I'm like, listen, but doing this for all just take a look. She's trying to argue with me a little bit, but anyway, we let it go. Well, then lockdown hits,

  36:14

  and shortly after lockdown, I get a oh my god text. So I call her, and she's like, Oh my God. Like I was sitting here at my computer today, and I'm doing something on the computer, and there's just a procedure that I'm doing, I forget a step. And she said, I realized when I'm at work, I would just lean over to a co worker and ask them, I would get the answer. I would be right back in business, like in two seconds, like I wouldn't even notice it, yeah, today, what happened was I didn't know what to do, so she instant messaged some people. He has no idea if they're at their desk, if they've got instant messaging on, or maybe they're not even reading it. So she sat there for a little bit. She got up. We went to go get a cup of coffee, and she never went back. Now, Dave, I gave you three to the power five, and you said, I suck at math because it's cognitively difficult. Well, I'm talking to the woman, and we we talked, and she did the procedure somewhere on my company's intranet, but I have no idea where it is.

  37:09

  Here's my point. You can be, just be in a room with somebody for half a day and lean over and ask a question, and that could be the difference between being productive that day and getting up and going to get a cup of coffee and never come back. So what happened? When lockdown happened, I was like, I'm out of a job. I'm just an ADHD motors. Everybody going, like, in 60 days? No, my phone lit up like a Christmas tree. Everybody was saying, I'm unproductive, I'm unmotivated. Oh no, you're not unproductive and not motivated. You just don't have the ability to to externalize your thinking. So that's the first piece. The second piece of it was people with ADHD, they struggle with what's called agitated boredom.

  37:53

  It's literally the physical discomfort where you're motivated to escape the flight. In other words, you're so uncomfortable you're going to do anything to get comfortable. And if you talk to anybody who's been through rehab

  38:05

  when you're hungry, angry, lonely and tired, it's harder to self regulate. I add bored and stressed. So when I'm coaching people, I ask all kinds of personal questions like masturbation and porn and gambling, and because I want to know what they're self medicating with in a moment when they're hungry, angry, lonely, tired, bored or stressed, make sense so far. So what happened when the pandemic, when everybody was sent home, number one and said, Okay, we're gonna make thinking harder for you, because you got to do this alone inside your head. And by the way,

  38:38

  as an escape or boredom, you can go run to the internet, yeah, now

  38:44

  the internet, YouTube,

  38:47

  Instagram, they're addictive. They're, they're, they're designed to be addictive. Now we got people with ADHD are more susceptible to this addiction stuff that they've got. So then they got kind of hooked. This has created a lot of problems. I had one woman call me up one time she went coaching and she was on YouTube five hours a day. And I'm like, Wow, maybe you should, you should, like, do you know that that that's designed to be addicted? Like, no, what's the social dilemma on Netflix? He said, I've just surrendered myself to it. I'm like, Wow. I think that I'm going to do if you surrendered yourself to this app that's addictive, like you want me to help you with productivity? Yeah, so I'm saying this because there's a quagmire that's coming on with people with ADHD is more and more they're looking for tools and apps to bind them to their phone with all these other distractions that they have kind of going that's cognitively easier before I'm saying and so it's it's created this dilemma. And so one of the things that people will come to me all the time, and they'll say, I need routine. Okay, let's go through your current routine. You roll over, your alarm goes off. It's your phone. You grab it, and you start dream scrolling. Well, you're pretty much done for the rest of the day, like we're.

  40:00

  Do you think I'm going to do, like, if you want to establish a routine, maybe you should get a flip phone? Oh yeah, do that. That's that's the one issue. Another one goes back to what I had said earlier about executive functions as I need. I don't have a system. I don't have a system. I got stuff, got lists and I got stuff on my phone. I got stuff on Alexa, I got stuff on my app. I got stuff on my iPad. And when I'm coaching people, I'm always like, okay, there's a system here. I'm asking them questions, and it's not, this is just an example. It's not uncommon where I've got somebody said, Well, you definitely have a system. It's basically when you have an idea you documented on whatever is the most convenient for you in that moment, think about that. Yeah,

  40:42

  they've tried other systems, but if it's not convenient for you on that moment, it's really not going to kind of work. So let me bring this all back to where we started.

  40:51

  People with ADHD today, more and more they're listening to I need an app to become productive. These apps that we're getting for productivity are taxing working memory. Even more. People are moving away from printing and phones and stuff like that. It's putting them on the app where they're getting the dopamine rush from all these little things that are kind of going on. And what's fascinating about this all is everybody wants tools. I want tools. I want tools. So as I just people come to me all the time because they want coaching on managing money. And I go, Well,

  41:28

  what are what is it? What? What hard decisions you're gonna make? And like, what like you want to do a budget, right? Yeah, why? Because I need to manage my money. I go, understand that, but you recognize is the budget doesn't save you any money. You have to make a decision at the cash register. That's where you save money. The budget is a tool to help you think, but it doesn't do the thinking for you. I gave you three words instead of repeat it back to me in alphabetical order. I was asking a guy a bunch of questions, like, how is he actually going to get the Mother's Day card, thumbs hand. More and more people, people are looking to these tools, as if the tool is actually going to do the thinking forum and it doesn't. They've surrendered themselves like I had this video that I put on YouTube, trying to you use thoughts to think, like to daydream, and use it to worry, and you use it to judge, you use it to learn, you use it to contemplate. Those are all thinking, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about problem solving. That's where the impairment really is. Yeah. So

  42:33

  the way this manifests is, I was doing this. There was a guy on YouTube that, by the way, when you declutter, you have to determine, am I going to keep this thing or not. Okay, 10% of the time it's trash. 10% you know, the rest of the 80% is like, what do I Okay, I don't know if you are going to keep it. Next is, where am I going to put it? Where I'm going to remember it? That's ambiguous. A guy, one time I'm coaching, I knew he had small kitchen one day Washington said, Hey, I got a waffle maker. I go, where the hell you got to put that? It goes, I don't know, put it under my bed. Put it under my bed. Two years later, I get an email, Hey, Jeff, guess what? Waffle maker? Because you would never look for a waffle maker under the bed. Right when you're decluttering, having to think where you're going to put this and remember it. That's cognitive, that that's cognitive. This guy literally made some posts, do you have an app to declutter? I'm like, the app will help you, but the app's not going to make the decision for you. So where I'm kind of coming back to Dave on this is a lot of people with ADHD, they lack the self awareness. They're searching constantly for something that's going to do the thinking for them, and the tools don't actually do the thinking. And so one of our problems today is there's a lot of selling of people of these things to do that's going to solve the problem, and they are a tool to help people think, but it doesn't actually do the thinking for you, and the people are resisting it. And is coach, yeah? And is coaching the only way then do you think for besides therapy and medication if needed, and things like that. But a guy like you who's self aware enough, yeah, put yourself in a situation and you, you know, like you married a great woman because she's there and she's listening to you. It's kind of built into your world. And I got to believe that you have enough self awareness to say, Listen, I've got to do something about these apps. I got to limit myself. I

  44:22

  can't remember the guy's name, but this guy in New York I interviewed years ago,

  44:27

  he like, he shut his computer off, like he can only get to certain things a certain time of the day, because, you know, he can't help himself. Yeah, people that have that level of self awareness and realize they have the self awareness say, I can't control myself, which is a lot of people want to do that. They'll actually put the barriers in place. They can do really, really, really well.

  44:47

  The people that are suffering the most are the ones that don't want to put those barriers in place. They don't really have the self awareness, and that's the real challenge. And they're going out, they're doing a lot of reading books and going to seminars, and they're, I call them, aha.

  45:00

  Junkies. They like to hear the ahas. They like to hear the cool part about the tip tricker strategy, but they're not actually implementing it because they don't realize that the tool actually doesn't do the work. And it's also, it's also not to interrupt, sorry, sorry. But I was going to point out too that these, especially digital tools are, you know, as we've talked about, are designed to be addictive. The Center for humane tech, you know, the documentary you talked about on Netflix, and Tristan Harris's work like the Yes. So these, these technologies, are built to be addictive, and we, as ADHD ers are also prone to addiction. Yeah, so you're so you're, yeah, you are the prey. It's like, and yeah, realize that you're got super computers that are studying every behavior. And so the challenge that we have right now, that quite honestly, Dave, is that there's so much of this that's going that's unfeathered, that like, it's just it, there's a, there's, there's a, there's a, it's in corporations best interest to exploit this. And there's no check and balance on this right now, right? And that one of the challenges I'm having right now is there was a study done at I heard it, apps are but 62% of the information on Tiktok, about ADHD is misinformation. 22% like lived experience, like 18% is actually kind of legit. And the reason I'm saying this is more and more people are selling kind of a bill of goods. Yeah, people with ADHD, that's actually taken in the wrong direction. I go right back to the number one. The the tool doesn't do the thinking, but a lot of times these apps are stressing you're already impaired executive function. It's being sold to you as the answer, but it's actually kind of making it worse. And they don't know any difference. It's, it's really a tragedy. And again, somebody like you and I kind of like this, you're doing this, and you're having people share stories, so people can get the awareness out there. Yeah, of kind of what's going on. And, oh my God, I need to do something about my phone. I mean, there's a lot of people who don't do that, so a lot of what you're doing is helping along the way, the people that are out there, but there's also a lot of people out there that are just exploiting and just selling, just trash. Yes, supposedly supposed to work. Like I go back to my cognitive ergonomics program, which is a engineering approach to edition. It's a new intervention. You sit there and say, you know, if you really take a look at existing interventions, they fall short across the board. They're not consistently good because they're trying to use behavioral training for somebody who has an impairment. They're not accommodating the impairment at the impairment level, and it's just a bit of a challenge. So you know, some things I'm doing with what I'm I'm trying to use my program to get into schools and workplaces so that I can now say this is an accommodation. This is why that was never, never understood to be one right now. So I'm trying to prove to them that this is work, so that we can get those types of accommodations for people coming in be a little bit along long hole. But it's, it's definitely a challenge for people in the world with ADHD, because they're being bombarded by lots of messages that's really confusing. And ADHD is very much more of an impairment. It's not as much of a behavioral issue like I said, it's an impairment, and I always encouraging people like you got to see it as an impairment, because if you get the right accommodations, you can leave a very fulfilling life. I mean, look at you like you've got the stuff that you need, and you're kicking ass and taking names right, where other people don't, right? So important, yeah, and Jeff, I, man, I want to do this in like, like a six part series with you, because we're burning through time here, and I want to be respectful of your time. But this is, this is amazing information that you're sharing, and I think it's really encouraging for people to to to understand, I mean, so very quickly, maybe, like, what are? What are three things that right right away, that you you know, and you can even, of course, self promote here and let people know to come to your website. But what are a few things that that, that a listener can do today to help with this. You know, with help improve the focus, help produce, improve productivity, all that good stuff. So the one thing I will tell you now, everybody wants the specific thing, but it's a general rule, whenever you have anything that you're not doing, you take a look at it, and you say, what is hard about doing this?

  49:19

  Say, what's hard, and let me tell you something if you're not doing it, it's hard.

  49:26

  Guy comes to me one time, first call,

  49:31

  procrastination list. I said, What's on your list? I gotta call my my relatives and tell about my, my daughter's dance recital. What's hard? Nothing, Jeff. I said, seriously, what? Jeff? It's simple phone call. I said, Come on, tell me what's hard. He said, Jeff, it's an easy phone call. Would you stop? It's the first thing on your procrastination list. You're paying me money.

  49:47

  Don't tell me that. It looks simple, but it's lot of effortful bottom line trip a lot of time. But there was a cognitive issue that's associated with working memory. That's the reason he wasn't doing it right, right? And so when you look at something, you say, what?

  50:00

  Hard, and I'll tell you it's either tedious and boring, which is hard for people with ADHD, or it's ambiguous. If you can identify what's ambiguous, say, okay, my first step is to remove the ambiguity, and then I'll do it. So that's my first tip. The second tip is, as a general rule, whenever you're doing anything, you focus on trying to make the thinking easier. When I say thinking, I'm really talking about problem solving. So like, I was major university my sophomore year, the reason I had the highest tutoring. But like, Why in the hell am I doing this the hard way? I'm just going to get individual tutors and ask the questions and have customized learning. Why would I want to have to go and learn it all on my own? Right? And that's, that's an example of the mindset to do with regard to that. And then the next thing of it is, and this is and this is not going to apply to everything, but I understand paper is a pain in the ass. Paper is really good for working memory. It's difficult to get to your future self.

  50:52

  Technology is really good to get things to your future self, but it's a working memory nightmare. So sometimes think of hybrid systems. My to do list is an outlook, but I print it off and then work off the paper copy of it every single day. And so those three things are kind of a general rule for the self promotional thing. My website's dig coaching.com, you go there. You access tension, talk radio, attention, talk video. I got all my other stuff up there. There's also a tab, if you click on it, there's a COVID of ergonomics from the inside out. There's a thing on the upper right hand side that you click on it, it'll take you to infomercial, because I'm explaining cognitive ergonomics is a new intervention. It's a new paradigm. That's a pretty bold claim. You have a right to be skeptical that I would make such a claim. And you can click on information on anything where I'm going through and I'm explaining what engineering is all about and why Dr Barclays model defines the attention scope does it. And I'm explaining what it's all about, why it works the way, and why I use a Six Sigma approach to problem solving. And you can judge it on its own merit. I'm not here. I mean, I think if you really understand the fundamentals of what it'll explain itself. But I'm I'm making the declaration to watch that piece of it and make the judgment for yourself. And as a side I'm very hopeful. I am on the Disability Advisory Board of a major healthcare company that wants to increase the hires with disability, and since I'm the cognitive guy, my hope is I can begin to get this program out so we can get accommodations that are unheard of right now, that really make all the sense in the world that weren't before. Just through the launch of the new program. Love it. I love it. Jeff, well, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been amazing. Well, thank you for the opportunity, and thanks for doing what you're doing like you know, by getting you know, this type of stuff out there is going to help the people that listen to it. So appreciate it.