PODCAST. Thriving as Couples and in Marriage with ADHD with Melissa Orlov.
This episode of ADHD Wise Squirrels is Sponsored by Futureforth Coaching.
Melissa Orlov.
How couples can thrive in relationships when one or both partners have ADHD.
Living in a relationship where one or both partners have ADHD can bring unique challenges, but it also offers opportunities for growth, understanding, and intimacy. ADHD affects relationships in various ways, from communication breakdowns to struggles with household responsibilities. However, with the right strategies and understanding, couples can overcome these challenges and thrive together.
In our latest podcast episode, we will explore key concepts discussed by Melissa Orlov, a leading expert on ADHD and marriage, who shared insights on parent-child dynamics, chore wars, and how couples can build strong, healthy relationships despite the challenges ADHD may bring.
Understanding the ADHD Effect on Relationships
When ADHD is present in a relationship, it often creates distinct patterns of interaction between partners. ADHD can lead to difficulties with focus, follow-through, and time management, which can stress the relationship, particularly if the other partner is neurotypical. Orlov highlights two major issues that commonly arise: parent-child dynamics and chore wars.
1. Breaking the Parent-Child Dynamic
A common pattern in ADHD-affected relationships is the development of what Orlov refers to as the parent-child dynamic. This happens when one partner, often the neurotypical one, takes on a parenting role, managing the household and the ADHD partner's responsibilities. The ADHD partner may then fall into a childlike role, deferring decisions and responsibilities to their partner, which leads to feelings of resentment on both sides.
How to Recognize and Address Parent-Child Dynamics:
Imbalance of Power: If one partner feels they are the "manager" of the household or the other person, this indicates a parent-child dynamic. The "child" role often leads the ADHD partner to feel disempowered, losing respect and status in the relationship.
Communication Breakdown: The non-ADHD partner may frequently feel frustrated, resorting to nagging, while the ADHD partner may feel like they are being micromanaged, leading to avoidance or resentment.
Sexual Intimacy Suffers: This imbalance can kill intimacy and romance, making the relationship feel more like a parent-child relationship than a partnership of equals.
Strategies to Break Free:
Awareness: The first step is recognizing that this dynamic is at play. Both partners need to acknowledge it and commit to changing it.
Set Boundaries: The neurotypical partner must learn where to let go of control and stop over-functioning, while the ADHD partner works on stepping up and taking more responsibility.
Support Each Other's Growth: Both partners need to respect each other’s progress, no matter how small, and communicate openly about expectations. The ADHD partner should focus on better managing their symptoms and improving follow-through, while the neurotypical partner can learn to accept a different, sometimes slower pace.
By addressing this dynamic, couples can restore balance, rebuild trust, and rekindle intimacy in the relationship.
2. Overcoming Chore Wars
One of the most visible areas of conflict in ADHD relationships is managing household responsibilities—what Orlov refers to as chore wars. The ADHD partner may struggle with completing tasks or following routines, leading the neurotypical partner to feel overwhelmed by taking on the bulk of household duties.
Common Symptoms of Chore Wars:
Uneven Distribution of Labor: The neurotypical partner often takes on the majority of the household responsibilities, leading to frustration and burnout.
Communication Issues: The ADHD partner may forget or avoid tasks, and the neurotypical partner may resort to nagging or micromanaging, which increases tension.
Building Resentment: Over time, the unequal division of labor can create resentment, further driving a wedge between the couple.
Solutions for Chore Wars:
Delegate and Prioritize: Both partners should discuss and prioritize household tasks. Decide what is most important and who is responsible for each task. The neurotypical partner can learn to let go of perfectionism, while the ADHD partner can work on time management and follow-through.
Use Tools and Systems: Technology can help ADHD partners stay organized. Shared digital calendars or task management apps can be helpful tools to track tasks and deadlines. For example, using a Google Calendar to manage family schedules can keep both partners accountable.
Start Small: ADHD partners may need to break down larger tasks into smaller, more manageable steps. This reduces overwhelm and makes it easier to complete chores without feeling pressured.
Establishing a system that works for both partners helps reduce tension and creates a more equitable division of labor in the household.
3. Building Stronger Communication
Communication is critical in any relationship, but in ADHD-affected relationships, it requires extra attention. ADHD symptoms can lead to misunderstandings, missed signals, and frustration, particularly when one partner doesn’t feel heard or valued. Improving communication is essential for restoring balance and fostering connection.
Tips for Effective Communication:
Be Present: ADHD can make it difficult for the ADHD partner to stay focused during conversations. To combat this, set aside time for important discussions without distractions, like smartphones or television.
Practice Active Listening: Both partners should work on active listening—repeating back what the other person says to ensure they understand. This shows empathy and respect for each other’s perspectives.
Use “I” Statements: To avoid blame, each partner should use “I” statements when expressing feelings or frustrations. For example, “I feel overwhelmed when the dishes aren’t done” is better than “You never do the dishes.”
Set Regular Check-Ins: Schedule regular, short check-ins to discuss any issues or concerns in the relationship. This can help prevent small problems from becoming bigger conflicts.
4. Managing Emotional Volatility and ADHD Symptoms
One of the key challenges in ADHD relationships is dealing with emotional volatility. Partners with ADHD may experience intense emotions or struggle with impulsivity, which can lead to conflicts. It's important for both partners to work on managing emotions and addressing underlying ADHD symptoms.
Emotional Regulation Strategies:
Mindfulness and Meditation: These practices can help both partners manage their emotions by staying grounded in the present moment. Regular mindfulness exercises reduce impulsivity and increase self-awareness.
Therapy and Support: Individual or couples therapy, particularly with therapists experienced in ADHD, can provide both partners with tools to manage their emotional responses. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) are particularly helpful for managing emotions.
Medication and Treatment Plans: For many couples, a treatment plan that includes medication, coaching, or therapy can dramatically improve ADHD symptoms, helping both partners cope with the challenges in their relationship.
5. Nurturing Intimacy and Romance
Intimacy often suffers when ADHD is unmanaged, particularly when the parent-child dynamic is in play. Couples must work on rebuilding emotional and physical intimacy to create a deeper connection.
Restoring Intimacy:
Prioritize Time Together: Set aside time each week to connect without distractions. This could be a weekly date night or even a few minutes each evening to check in with each other.
Rekindle Affection: Small gestures, like holding hands, hugging, or even smiling at each other during the day, can help rebuild physical and emotional closeness.
Be Intentional About Romance: Plan small acts of kindness or surprise dates to keep the romance alive. Even when life is busy or stressful, making time for each other strengthens the relationship.
6. Accepting and Embracing Differences
Ultimately, thriving in a relationship with ADHD requires both partners to accept and embrace their differences. ADHD affects how a person processes information, manages time, and responds to emotions, but it doesn't define the entire relationship. By fostering mutual respect, understanding each other's needs, and practicing patience, couples can navigate the challenges ADHD brings and build a lasting, fulfilling partnership.
Living in a relationship where ADHD is present may come with unique challenges, but it’s entirely possible to thrive as a couple. Recognizing patterns like the parent-child dynamic and chore wars is the first step to overcoming them. Through communication, emotional regulation, and shared responsibility, couples can restore intimacy, reduce conflict, and create a strong foundation for their relationship.
With patience, empathy, and the right tools, both partners can grow together and build a relationship that not only survives but thrives.
Resources:
Dave mentioned his use of Freedom to lock himself out of addictive apps and distracting sites.
Melissa Orlov’s Website: ADHDMarriage.com
Books by Melissa Orlov:
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Hi, I'm Melissa Orlov, and I founded ADHD marriage.com way back in the ice age 2007
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and I work with couples and and committed relationships, including people who are married about how to integrate their knowledge about ADHD, and also responses to ADHD and how they are together. And I have written a couple of award winning books on the topic, including the ADHD effect on marriage. And I give seminars, and I give I have support groups, and I have a consulting group that works with couples, so I'm pretty active in providing the support that couples need. That's great. Well, I am absolutely thrilled to have you on. As I mentioned before, before we hit record, you know, your name has come up many times in some of the conversations I've had with with ADHD experts, and certainly relationships and marriage and that kind of world is something that I haven't I haven't really talked a lot about here, so it's definitely a topic near and dear to both of our hearts, because I'm married to a neurotypical person and so happily married. Thank God we've been together like about 25 years, but God knows, like having been diagnosed last year, and now, knowing what I know about my operating system, it's, it's a miracle. She's stuck it out for so long.
1:30
I think part of it is She's a school teacher, and so she obviously has kids of all shapes, sizes, neurotypes and all that good stuff. And you know, she has said, I probably have ADHD many times over the years, and I finally got diagnosed last year. So yeah, well, she has lots of experience in in sort of taking people where they are, because that's what you do when you're with kids, right? So that's just, yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw online that you are currently doing non ADHD partner support groups, and I would love, I think that's a brilliant idea. Is that something you've been doing for a long time, I have then, and I now have a group of really talented people who help me with them, because they're so popular I can't do them all myself.
2:17
But yeah, because there are a fair number of ADHD partner support groups out there, but not really anything for the non ADHD partners. And I do actually have one one for ADHD partners, and I probably will add some couples groups as well going into the future, but at the moment, we do the nons, and it's 1010, people per group, so they get a chance to really find out. Oh, wait, they're not alone. They thought they were. And there are a lot of other people having the same issues,
2:48
which is pretty common, because one of the things I talk about in my work is the patterns that these couples tend to go through. And one of those patterns you talked about in some of your webinars that I've watched and some of the training that you've provided
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is And correct me, what the answer here? But it's something to the or the def the word, but it's something to do with that the it's like a parent child relationship, where the neurotypical parent take or neurotypical spouse partner takes on this parent role, and unfortunately,
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the wise squirrel, in my case, takes on the child role. And that, when I heard you talking about that, that certainly,
3:35
that certainly rang true to some of our experiences. You want to talk a little bit about that well, so I call it parent child dynamics, because it's two people. So you know, one of the mistakes to make is to say, Oh, well, the person who's got the ADHD label is somehow responsible for all this stuff, and that's not actually the case. Is very much in a relationship about how you interact around the symptoms and around the behaviors or whatever. So the parent child dynamic is a way of describing sort of over functioning on the part of one partner and under functioning on the part of the other. And those sound demeaning. I don't mean to sound demeaning, but it's, for example, making a promise and having difficulty following through on that promise, because the ADHD symptoms get in a way, in the way, and actually, there's some gender bias in this as well. Sometimes you'll find if the partner with the ADHD is a woman, that we have a sort of cultural expectation that the woman is going to perform in a certain way. And so maybe sometimes that ADHD partner is actually the over functioner, but struggling to over function because the ADHD symptoms are so hard to overcome, so So it varies, but I've seen plenty of cases where the a male, non ADHD partner was the over functioner. And so a lot of stress in this. And what I find is that you.
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Not only does it sort of kill your sex life and make everybody miserable, you know one person becomes the manager of the household or the manager of the other person, which is, that's the that's where the issue comes out, and then the person who's in the under functioning, more childlike role, often the ADHD role, and loses status in the relationship. They lose respect. They sort of often cope with it by going and hiding or not bringing up things or becoming very resentful or becoming quite defiant or whatever. So it's a really difficult pattern, and I see it by the time people find a consultant or a counselor to work with. 99% of the couples that we see have this dynamic going on for them. You spoke a little bit about sex life and being romantic, or being romantic that way. How are, how is? Does this come into play with, with those challenges? Well, you know, your sex life is kind of like the canary in the mind, right? So if things are going south, the sex life typically goes south is one of the first things, actually, you know, where there, if there's any sort of buildup of resentment, or people are not feeling safe or able to be vulnerable, or any of that, then their intimacy breaks down. And I think in the parent child dynamic, if you part of the reason I call it that is because it's unsexy, right? And and so that status imbalance means that it's really hard to want to engage intimately with your partner, even things as basic as basic touch or holding hands, or, you know, smiling at each other while you're walking through the woods, or whatever your idea of romance is, even those things can become really hard. What are some of the ideas, maybe some strategies for each participant in a relationship being, you know that parent, child or neurotypical, neurodiverse person, what are some challenges each can do to overcome, not not just sexual problems, but like whatever romantic problems, relational problems, communication problems, like, what are some of the strategies for, let's say neurotypical people first. Okay, so well, so the very, very first thing for both partners is just to become aware that it is a thing, and that is a pattern that's really, really common. It's not that the two of them are bad people or anything like that. This is what happens. You have these symptoms, and the symptoms interfere with the performance, they make the the relationship more chaotic and and then that interfering with the performance, then leads the other partner, sort of naturally, sort of the human response to that is to try to take more control and make things happen in a more orderly way. So that's actually how it starts to develop. And so for the neurotypical person, once they're aware, both partners are aware that this is here, and they say, Yes, I want to fix this, they need to start taking a look at what's really important that they want to hang on to and what's less important to them. And where are their values and their are their values and their
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actions aligned. So for example, if you hold the value of respect really highly, then if you are, you know, chasing a person to do things, nagging a person, belittling a person because they haven't done something or whatever, you probably need to reassess. And so that's sort of how I try to move non ADHD partners away from a parenting mode. The dilemma is this mindset which is based in the reality of what their lives have been like in the past, which is, if I don't do it, it won't get done, right? And so they bring this, they get this, well, I have to do this. And I try to reassure people that, well, first of all, you never have to do anything. You're choosing to do it. And you're choosing to do it for a very logical reason, which is that you're feeling anxious about whether or not it gets done. The way to address that is both to improve the tolerance for how the ADHD partner does things, so they have a unique way of doing things that's often foreign to the neurotypical partner, but also to help the ADHD partner improve their management of their ADHD improve their executive functioning skills, improve their ability to communicate and be transparent about what they are and are not doing it as they do it, et cetera. So you attack the parent child dynamics from both directions, from the neurotypical person learning where to let go, where not to let go, how to address the feelings of anxiety that all this brings up, and the person with.
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ADHD, learning how to improve their performance and improve their status in their relationship. So stepping up by managing the ADHD better. Yeah, no, that's a great point. It's yeah. It's been interesting for for myself and my spouse, my wife, about Yeah, this balance and interplay, like, for example, she
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she has, like, a calendar on the fridge. That's paper, and she writes down all the things for the longest time. And because I'm kind of digitally minded, I, although I'm all about analog to I, you know, I created a Google Calendar, and I'm like, can you just please add the things to the Google Calendar? And once we did that, and she did do this, and this is actually before my diagnosis,
10:50
it's been a godsend, because I can look on Google calendar and see the blocks of time that I need to be in different places or whatever we have planned, and also plan my days around that, so that I'm not like, doing work or whatever during those times, so
11:06
things like that have really that's one strategy that it's really worked for us, even, even I almost say it's a like, in a in a coping mechanism kind of way, or a strategy without because I didn't know I had ADHD, but I knew this is the way it's going to work better for us. Have you run into things like that or other strategies, and it sounds to me as if part of the reason that might work for you, and tell me if I'm wrong, is that you have your Google Calendar with you all the time, so in the present moment, at the instant you go, Oh, I wonder what I'm doing, you can pull up your phone versus go find the refrigerator. I mean, you might be out in your car, right? Yeah. So, so that helps you bring it into the present moment right then. And that's specifically about ADHD, you know, not having to plan ahead to be at the refrigerator at the right time, right? Right? Yeah, I find,
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I find it's interesting because, like, again, you can correct me, but I almost say, like they're coping mechanisms or strategies
12:09
that I've developed over the years. Like, for example, I'm extremely anal with my with being on time, like punctual, like, I will arrive at a meeting early and sit in my car until it was until it's time to go in. Like, I'm not rude. I won't show up early, you know, to a meeting, but I'll wait in the car like I'm I'm never late for for anything. You know, I've never missed a flight. I've always picked my kids up from school on time. You know, it's interesting that, like, I've developed these things that I think are good traits
12:43
in a way to combat What I didn't know about myself. Yeah, yeah. And there are a whole bunch of people listening right now who are going, Oh, I wish my partner did that.
12:56
You know, it is one of the strategies for people with ADHD is actually sort of a hyper organization in areas that they really care about, so that things don't get more chaotic than they are. So it sounds like time management for you has been one of those areas, and it also sounds as if it works for you because you have learned about the transition time between you know what you used to be doing and the next meeting and blocked that in. So if you arrive early, it doesn't bother you. I've worked with people who have the exact opposite approach, which is, if I arrive early, it drives the drives me crazy, because I don't want to be wasting that time, quote, unquote, and not real. No, not putting as much of a priority on the timeliness or the respect for other people or whatever. But that's, you know, there's a lot of in the consulting work that I do, there's a lot of translation between neurotypical and ADHD ways of being and ways of doing things. So your need to see it and have it with you on your body at all times in the calendaring, for example, is a specific way of being you didn't at the time, attributed that to ADHD, but it but it is. It's about that, not now, not now. Time Zone ready, accessibility, not needing to plan ahead to view something, and keeping a structure that you can count on, like part of ADHD is externalizing the structure so you don't have to remember it in your head. You have it all on the calendar, and plus mean dual new neurotypical couples still need to coordinate around who's doing what, when, right. So that just happened to be your mode, which was great. Do you find? Because I know we are susceptible to addiction, and I also know that having, you know, I was a speaker for Google for almost six years. So I've done a lot of work in digital and social media before social media became, you know, the dumpster fire that so much of it is now, but these so, so I'm very familiar with addictive Tech.
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Technology, and how devices like your iPhone or Android device, whatever, how the device itself is manufactured and designed to be really addictive, and then the apps themselves are designed to be addictive, plus, you know, all of that. What? What are your thoughts? Have you had, you know, so like, for example, I could, I could have my phone with me at all times, so I have access to Google Calendar. Wonderful. However, now I have my own strategies here, but, but for somebody listening, you know, that device can be, you know, poison, because it can distract you from getting anything done. Yeah, and, and, I think, importantly, distract you from your partner, so one and from your family. So I run into this a lot, actually, where the partner with ADHD is following that reward focused brain, right? This is part of ADHD, and the dopamine, low dopamine levels means that it's a reward seeking brain to get more dopamine, dopamine in it. And so that's where the addiction stuff comes from, grossly speaking.
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And, and so I'll hear people say, my partner is incapable of putting down their phones. The kids are crying, the dinners needs to be made, whatever, and my partner is there on the phone. And that feels very rewarding. And, and it's also, if you think about ADHD in these two time zones now, and everything else, which is not now, in the now, it's very rewarding. And you're there, you're not in the kitchen, or that the dining table, or whatever you are, you know, in the in the now,
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that what, it's a really tough problem to solve, if the ADHD partner isn't willing to take into account the fact that this isn't just because this is a fun thing or good thing to do, it's also because of how their brain actually functions, like they have to actually fight their brain in the same way that you might fight time management issues or Other things to fight the brain, about the the phone addiction in particular, but also sometimes computer stuff,
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and structure it the same way you structure, like your calendaring, right? You have a structure around that that you've set up that works. And some of those structures are things like, when you come home for there's a three hour window, or the phone is in the drawer, or something like that, so that you can connect. And this is made harder because distraction is the number one symptom of adult ADHD. So it means that these relationships tend to suffer from the fact that the ADHD partner can be very distracted, ie not paying attention to their partner and or family members and and so those family members feel lonely sometimes, is how I hear it described or unattended to, and they really resent the fact that the phone is what's getting attended to, right? And so it creates these very negative emotions in the other people in the family. For Kids, sometimes, I think there it runs into attachment issues and things as they're developing, because they never know if their part, if their parent is actually going to pay attention to them or not, right?
18:14
So it becomes a huge area of turmoil. But I think that you can take times of the day where you literally lock it away from yourself, or whatever, you have to be willing to create that kind of a structure. It's a little bit like managing a kid's video time or something. Not that I'm saying that adults with ADHD are kids, but that it's, it's a management structure of how do you connect? Yeah, yeah. And it's similar to addiction, like, like alcohol or something like that, where you know you have to want to stop, right? Like the person regardless of their neurotype, but the person that that is addicted to whatever the substance might be has to be willing to take the steps for themselves, to stop, right? So and So, in a sense, like the phone is a similar sort of thing, where it's like, to your point, like, lock it up for three hours in the evening. I use an application that actually has a built in VPN that locks me out of certain apps during periods of the day when I'm working or in the evening or whatever. So that, you know, if I go to go on LinkedIn or Facebook or Reddit or whatever, it says, no, no, no. Here is that. It's called freedom. I'll include a link to it. I actually have a link to it in the resources section on my website, too, on why squirrels,
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and I interviewed the founder of I've been using it for years, and I interviewed the founder on my previous podcast, and definitely kindred spirits on a lot of this. But you know, so there's another.
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Part to this as well, which just, you know, this issue of of not being able to attend to your partners. There's it's an it's a complicated thing, because, again, interactions between partners are what make these family relationships go.
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If your partner is willing to put down their phone for three hours a day, it behooves you to a show appreciation and acknowledgement of that, because it's a huge effort and and that acknowledgement is a reward of its own. So replace one reward with another, but also think very carefully about what do you want to accomplish in those three hours a day? Do you want to spend that time connecting? Do you want to spend that time getting tasks done? Do you want to spend that time talking? Well, you know what? What is it that you want to do and
20:50
focus in on the things that are most important to you? Because we never get everything that we want out of life or out of the number of hours we have in a day or whatever. Don't waste that three hours a day. And if it were me and my priorities, don't waste that. Talking about how the toilets needed to get cleaned last week and they didn't get cleaned, right, right? Yeah,
21:11
it's not gonna feel rewarding enough, nor is it gonna meet get you where you want to be in your relationship, either. Yeah, and don't sit for three hours and watch Netflix. Yeah? I mean, you could if that's, if that's your chosen activity, but probably not if you've got an active family. I mean, that's a judgment call. I don't get to decide whether somebody decides that the way they want to connect is around Netflix, but it isn't that's a parallel activity, right? Somebody is feeding you stuff, versus interacting with each other and and being, you know, creating a connection.
21:44
So, you know, you have to sort of think about these things. Particularly if you have kids, how long have you been focused like your practice, and how long have you been focused on couples
21:58
the whole time? So I, so I personally only do couples, personally, and that's always been the case since 2007
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I now have this Consulting Group. I have 21
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people in the consulting group that are affiliated with me and and train with me,
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and
22:19
some number of them do individuals. I've got coaches that, for example, work on executive function stuff for ADHD people. I've got people who specialize in working with non ADHD people,
22:30
so, and these are coaches and counselors and whatever, so, but I personally have only done the couple stuff. I find it fascinating, and I seem to have a
22:41
sort of a natural ability to balance out the needs of both people. I don't know why, but there you Yeah, what were you doing? What? What? What brought you to 2007 and making that decision, what were you doing before that? Something completely different that wasn't relevant at all for what I do now. No, it brought it to me, actually, was that I had a partner who has ADHD, and my daughter has ADHD. And actually, when we first started together, like you, we didn't know that he had ADHD or has ADHD, so
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it was very front of mind. And we had learned a lot of stuff, and there weren't very many resources. So I just started blogging about it, and it took off, and that was sort of the beginning. And then everything got really confusing on the website, because so many people were interested in it, and the information was sort of all over. So then I wrote a book. First Book got reviewed by the New York Times, and that was sort of the end of being, being not unknown. Yeah, and you've got, I mean, I noticed like, over, over 1000 reviews of that. But, I mean, my book came out in like, 10 or 13 years ago, and I got like 45 reviews, which are good, that's great, but you have like, over 1000 and which is incredible. And, I mean, the book is awesome, and it's a great resource, you know, you you talk in the book about these six,
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or I'll say the title again, the ADHD effect on marriage, understand and rebuild your relationship in six steps. And we talked a little bit about some of this stuff. The book came out in 2010 right? Yeah, what has, what has? Has something changed in those six and we can go through those six steps very quickly. I mean, I can, I know it's understanding the ADHD effect, breaking the patterns of denial and anger, rebuilding the trust, setting boundaries and learning new skills, bringing the joy back to the relationship and then seeking support. Yeah, what has changed? Well, so I did update, by the way, I did update it in 2020, as anniversary, because there were some things, but it's interesting. The patterns and the some of the advice around the pattern stuff are quite evergreen and and also sort of scarily predictable, because it's, you know.
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Set of known symptoms, and then a set of human responses to the symptoms and the conflict that comes around those two things, and the symptoms don't change, and the responses are based in human nature, so they don't change much either. So much of what has changed is really the understanding of how to manage it and treat ADHD as well. As you know, more research is out on what works and what doesn't work in that front. And I think I've become, personally, a whole lot more interested in boundaries work and sort of where you draw your own sources of strength and your own motivation for your own behavior, because the parent child dynamic has the parenting in particular, has so many conundrums in it and so many it's such a difficult thing. You can't just say to somebody, well, care less about X, because that just doesn't cut it.
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And furthermore, it's not even reasonable request, right? If somebody is not, you know keeps promising you stuff and not following through on it. That's a continuing injury to the other partner. It's a breach of trust. And so what I have, I found the boundaries work to be very, very helpful for non ADHD partners, and that's something that I did not emphasize as much in that book, even in the 2020, revision of it.
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And would I do a lot more work with people on it, on it now?
26:30
And I think there's more acceptance, as I'm seeing of adult ADHD, like people going like, yeah, okay, I actually it's actually okay to work on this. And some of that is just some of the really popular podcasters and and, you know, sort of ADHD celebrities in this space talking about what it feels like to have ADHD and normalizing it more. So I think that's that's helpful. Well, speaking of what are some of the most common mistakes or myths that you're coming across, you know, whether you're online and seeing things or because I know,
27:06
certainly, what I've learned is, I mean, there, you know, it's, it's ADHD. I mean, there it is an acronym. There is consistent stuff, but at the same time, there's inattentive and hyperactivity and all the, all the different things. So are there, are there common mistakes that people are spreading online, or misinformation that you're coming across or hearing from your your clients? Yeah. I mean, I'm happy to see that the New York Times is not doing the, you know, this is all big pharma trying to sell you meds anymore, which they did do in the, you know, 2000s and that just drove me crazy, because anybody who says ADHD doesn't exist is just ignorant. I'm sorry, yes, no, no, basically, so much evidence that it does and that it can be very debilitating. You know, I think one of the myths that I run into in the couple's work is that ADHD is the reason for the problem, and it isn't just ADHD. It's ADHD and responses to ADHD. And yes, the ADHD is there. And so it is something that not every couple has to deal with,
28:12
but it is both partners. And so blaming the other partner. You know that the classic blame is the ADHD partner says, if you would just be nicer to me, everything would be fine. And, you know, just relax, you know. And the non ADHD partners like, if you would just fix the ADHD, everything would be fine, you know. And it's just not true. Each partner has to do their own thing. The other myth that I that I continue to see and is this idea that you can manage adhd with diet, and for some people who have undiagnosed, undiagnosed celiac, which actually is about 15% of people who have ADHD, so it's much higher than the general population. That's actually true. It can actually make a huge difference. But other than that, diet doesn't do a whole lot. It makes, you, bet, more healthy in general, but isn't specific to focus, unlike exercise and sleep and mindfulness and etc. And then another myth is that it's about attention deficit, because it's not. It's about attention dysregulation. So it's misnamed, right? So you can hyper focus, as you know, you can get stuff really done really well. If, if you have a system to put it in place, it's not, you know, there is distracted attention, for example, really commonly, obviously, hence your name of your podcast, yes, but it isn't, it isn't a deficit of attention. Yeah, no, that's great. You mentioned mindfulness, which is something you know, I had Dr Lydia zaleska on the podcast to talk about, among some other guests as well.
29:55
So like in 2020 for me, like I was diagnosed last year, but in 2020
30:00
When the world was imploding,
30:03
and I had additional stresses, my dad passing away, and a combination of sort of that, and being stuck in, in not being able to travel because of that. And then my business wasn't doing well, and then we had a tornado, and it was just, it was one thing, yeah, we didn't. We were out of our house for three months, and it was just a nightmare, you know, dealing with all insurance and contractors and all that jazz, especially a stressful time when I decided I was drinking a little too much. So I decided, you know, I'm going to take a break for 30 days. I discovered non alcoholic beer, and I'm like, wait a minute, this is actually great so and now, now I'm sober over four years,
30:46
but I've, I found during that time of daily mindfulness and meditation practice, or not, a daily a daily meditation practice and focusing on being more mindful Throughout the day, throughout every moment, being more present, focused and being in the now,
31:05
I find that the combination of that, with journaling frequently, all these things in sobriety, all these things, had helped me prepare for my diagnosis Last year ahead of time, in a way that I'm so glad I did beforehand, because, knowing myself now, I find that all these things combined have really contributed to me being able to kind of exist like I have before, but now, with the with the diagnosis,
31:40
Any thoughts about that? Yeah. I mean, you're talking about without realizing what you were doing. You're talking about slowing yourself down, right? So if you think about the attention, the squirrel thing going on with the ADHD, right? You know, your attention is here, and then it's instantaneously taken over there, and there's no, like, little space to think about things, or to slow down, or to do them more carefully
32:04
and and that's really necessary. You know, one of the things that Russ Berkeley likes to say is that one of the travesties of the ADHD world is that you know what you do and you can't bring it to bear. You know, you know you're supposed to do, but you can't bring it to bear at the right time. And part of that is about not having enough of a pause in your thinking, even if it's a couple of milliseconds enough pause to go Wait. What are the tools I could use? Right? You just wherever the thing is that you know that draws you to it, or you follow the emotions, the fears or the overwhelm, or the you know, the anxiety, or the you know, like, Oh my God, that's great reward thing, or whatever. So you were slowing yourself down in a whole bunch of different ways. You were being reflective in the journal. You are being reflective and slowing yourself down in the meditation practice and the mindfulness that you were doing and thinking about being in the present moment. And the more able you are to be in the present moment and really think through it, the more able you are also to avoid being drawn away from with the other distractions and the other rewards that are out there. And one of the things that I
33:22
use to describe the way the ADHD brain seems to work is that there's not much hierarchy,
33:29
and that, because it's less filtered and you get a lot of input, sort of
33:35
erroneous, or erroneous is the wrong word, but stimulation coming from a lot of different places, that sounds like it could be kind of rewarding,
33:44
that there's not a lot of hierarchy, and so you are creating structures of hierarchy with this.
33:51
You know, the time to reflect is a time to think about what's important. The calendaring is a time to lay down what's important for your time. The mindfulness is a time to notice what's important in the real world.
34:08
It's fascinating to me because, you know, I was in a mastermind group for my business. Now I work for the most part. I work for myself, and which has its its challenges, especially, you know, holding myself accountable and and things like that. But I was in a mastermind group, and I remember two of the people in the group were like, Dave, you know exactly what you need to do for your business. Like, you know exactly what you need to do, to the point that I actually wrote it on a post it note and pinned it on my wall, or stuck it on my wall above my desk to say, You know what to do, but this was before I was diagnosed
34:45
and and now I realize, even when I know what to do, why I still don't do it. I was going to ask you, because the first thing that comes to my mind with what I do is, so what's getting in your way? Mm.
35:00
Hmm.
35:01
No, seriously, I'm asking you that question, yeah, what's in your way? Yeah, I think for me it's a combination, or maybe it's,
35:10
for me, it's usually a combination of overwhelm, because I don't know what to do specifically, or that I'm overwhelmed with choice of the thing to do, combined with self doubt and imposter syndrome, which kicked my ass from time to time. And I know we why squirrels are susceptible to that, especially so, at least, that's my understanding. Yeah. Well, so, so that's an interesting sort of disentangling the larger direction from the specific small tasks, right? And there's an executive function thing going on there, which has to do with with breaking things down and visualizing the future, like, if I do this, the outcome would be that, or the next step would be this, or whatever. And that can easily feel overwhelmed, but it's good that you're able to identify it right? Because, in theory, one of the things maybe I'm making this up on the spot here, sure you could do is something like a brainstorming session with yourself. Like, what are the 1000 things, or the 100 things that I think I might do here? And you start writing them down on like, note cards or something, and then move them around to group them, like, Okay, actually, these guys seem to have the most potential here, and these guys I can do later, and maybe you can break the logjam for yourself. I don't know. I think that's brilliant. And actually I don't we normally don't record with Zoom, but because you can see me,
36:37
I actually just did that. There we go. So I so it's perfect that you said that, because, yeah, so, and it's actually something I'm helping a client with right now as well. Because what I find is that, to your point, by like, it's sort of three parts. It's like setting, like the big things, like, it's, what are the big things I need to do for this project? Let's say like. Let's say there's five or 10 or whatever, brainstorming what those big things are to accomplish, and then setting a date of like or like, when I need to have these big things finished in order to get to the whatever the finish line is. But then the third part is to break those big things down to small steps and even put time times on those small steps so that I can, you know, clearly understand what needs to be done and when it needs to be done by, yeah. So you have a time management issue, which you're continuing to address, but I one of the things I really like about what you did with the yellow stickies is you can move that stuff around, yes, so it's easier than dealing. You can move stuff around online and documents and stuff as well, but it's really easy to visualize it. If you've got no cards or stickies or whatever, and you can have 50 of them, it doesn't matter, as long as you start grouping them in a way that makes sense to you and provides insight. All right. And I need to get back to couples here, though, yes, just working on executive function stuff, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, you're right. You're right. Good job bringing, bringing it land in the plane. Dave redirect there, yeah, well played. Well played. So, yeah, let's get back to couples. So what advice do you have for partners who are struggling with, you know, with a new, fresh diagnosis of ADHD, and when one of those people, yeah, I mean, the fresh diagnosis stage is an interesting one from coupledom, because the you get a name for it, there's often great sense of relief, like, oh, this explains a lot, and that means there's some potential. And so that gets your hopes up. And then there's actually a fairly long path to actually starting to effectively manage the ADHD. So the first step is always building your knowledge around it. And I try to help people do that with the seminars and stuff that I have, but also then getting aligned with, you know, how am I going to manage this? Right? What I'm what are the steps I'm going to take? I have a free download of a treatment overview. Like, how do you think about treatment? I think about it in three legs. How, you know, what are the elements of each one? How? What kinds of things would I do in that? That's one approach. There are many. So pick a way to think about, how am I going to manage the ADHD and and then set your expectations in a realistic way. I think sometimes it takes about a year after people are
39:38
have decided to engage with it to find whether they're going to take medications, and if so, which are the right ones, and are they going to work with a coach, and what are the target symptoms they're going to go after first, and how do they start to get in better alignment with their partners? And, you know, there's a lot there
39:54
educated, so that's one of the things. But I also encourage both.
40:00
Partners to get knowledgeable enough so they open themselves up to the work that each partner needs to do. That takes a while. I've run into a bunch of people where the non ADHD partner is pretty dismissive. They're like, You know what? That's your ADHD that's your problem. You fix it, and then I'll engage. And that is a recipe for disaster. It just does not work, and it's all about feeling angry and resentful, and not about actually, if it's not about boundaries, even though people say, yeah, no, that's not my stuff to take care of. It's actually about anger and resentment, typically, because while the ADHD isn't their thing to take care of, their relationship is, and by dismissing the partner's efforts, they are also distancing themselves from having to do any work themselves, and so they are not doing their own job. Yeah, it's interesting, because I could see how, if you've been with in a relationship with the same person for, you know, 10 plus years or something, and then you get diagnosed
41:05
to for the neurotypical person or the parent person. You know, you haven't changed. You're the same person. But now you're diagnosed with ADHD, and now you're going through treatment and whatever it is, trying to make like, you know, make sense of this all and communicate it well to your spouse, so that they understand partners, so that they understand
41:28
that nothing has changed and everything has changed. Yeah, everything does change, but it changes for both people, right? I think that if you've been married for 20 years and you didn't know about the ADHD and you were struggling, which you and your wife may not have been but if the answer is yes, you've been struggling, there are a whole bunch of patterns between you that are sort of these pursuit, escape patterns or hiding patterns, or aggression or whatever. You've both become kind of warped by the experience there people describe non ADHD partners. In particular, tend to describe things like, I feel like I have another child. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells all the time, and pulling apart, teasing apart where the most effective places of attack are, can be really helped with professional help, or even just getting more knowledge. Like a ton of people take this seminar that I give and it helps them get started, at least, to really understand what's going on. I'm not trying to. I mean, it's a great resource. Yeah, it is, but it's great so, so I think just being willing to become more humble and engage with it on both sides. I mean, it's a real threat for somebody with ADHD. It's scary in some ways to go like, am I going to be good enough? Am I going to be able to do this? Lots of people are saying, Oh, you have ADHD. That means you can't do X, Y or Z. That's not actually what it means, but it probably does mean you're going to be doing it differently from your partner, if your partner is neurotypical, so you know, how do you find your footing again? Right? As as I've started talking with other adults with ADHD for the podcast, but also just offline or in community groups and so forth, I've noticed something that, and I've heard about it anecdotally, that
43:23
Well, typically, and again, anecdotally, I find that like, ADHD ers are always just, like warm and wonderful, like really giving good people. But I also find that we tend to become really close friends and find community, unknowingly, even with other ADHD ers. And I'm curious, well, first of all, if that's if there's anything behind that, but also in partnerships, do you find that spouses are both neurodiverse, or both have ADHD often or cell so if you have 5% of the population, approximately five to seven, whatever it is that has ADHD, right? Statistically, there are fewer ADHD, ADHD couples, right plus by the numbers, but there are plenty of them. It's an it's an incremental struggle, both if you are a woman who has ADHD, which Kathleen NATO probably talked with you about Yes, yes. And also, if you're in a dual ADHD partnership, on the one hand, you may have similar experiences, or your ADHD may present very differently. And so you think you're similar, and you're not as similar as you thought.
44:38
But also you don't have somebody who has this sort of easy, flowing executive function. And so many of the things that are really boring in life, like doing your taxes and stuff, are a struggle for both people to do, and so, or could be a struggle for both people to do. And so.
45:00
So there are incremental issues that those couples face on both of those counts. So, yeah, but they exist. I mean, they don't. They tend. Then there's often a person, there may be gender based, who is still in the parenting role or the pushing role, I think of it sometimes like be this way. Do it this way, do these things
45:26
and and so you still have some of the parent child dynamics and chore wars and other things the other patterns that go on. Yeah, are there? Are there just question that popped in my head, but as far as same sex relationships go, is there any sort of difference, or any anything,
45:46
yeah, different in that sort of relationship? I think I might know the answer that's coming to my head, but I'm just curious. Yeah, I find, as a sort of very, very broad rule of thumb that the lesbian couples that I have worked with
46:03
are
46:06
more likely to be verbal and more likely to to be able to communicate, but still struggle with the friction between them and with the status dynamics between them. So that's sort of one thing. I have not worked with a lot of same gender male couples, gay couples, but we do have, we have people now in the practice who are better and more astute at working with couples from,
46:36
you know, the LGBTQ plus community and troubles and stuff like that. So there are folks that specialize that, in that, and in my group, I'm not one of them, but, but that's been my basic observation. That's a pretty you know, they still have the same issues. Yeah, they just are interacting around them slightly differently because they don't have the sort of heterosexual biases that we get in our culture? Yeah, and I would think generalizing women tend to have kind of higher emotional intelligence to begin with, so maybe that's part of the reason why they they're more, you know, likely to speak to talk about stuff.
47:18
So, and I know we're, we're running low on time, so I want to make sure that we're, that we're mindful of that here, but I want to be respectful of your time. So
47:28
had a question there that popped in my head about,
47:33
ah, it's gone. I hate that way that happens.
47:37
That's yeah,
47:40
I know it's amazing, right? Like the Yeah, scientifically, I believe it's called a brain fart,
47:47
very scientific term for sure. Yeah.
47:51
What are some questions that I didn't ask? Or do you have questions for me on some of this stuff? I'm curious. Well, I you know, there are so many different ways to approach, how couples approach these things. I think, first of all, I mean, I do like to communicate that there really is hope you do have the ability to repair things. And part of the reason I have all those comments on my books is because so many people have read them and that they help. And that's great. Getting that knowledge is the very first step, and it's really, really important.
48:25
And I think, you know, people are people, I tend to see a lot of people who are struggling. That's why they find me. But there's a good percentage of people who aren't struggling, or who find that because they both have ADHD, they both are fine with with a certain amount of tornado nest, if you want to call it that, in their houses. Or they both have low energy, or they both have, you know, something else that really does bring them together. So not everybody who has ADHD in the relationship does struggle, and it sounds like you and your wife were in that group. Are there things that you think that you guys did really well? I think we've always been,
49:09
you know? I mean, we have struggles, like every couple, I guess, but we but so it's not always like a walk in the park, but we do. We've been together for so long. So,
49:22
like, for example, like, we, we lived in Europe, we met in Ireland, and back then we had no money at all, so we didn't have any sort of financial expectations for one another. You know, we worked odd jobs. We would save up enough money, and then backpack in to other places in Europe, from Ireland, and we'd run out of money, and then we'd have to start find jobs to like this is what happened when we went to Prague. We ran out of money in Prague, and spent four or five months teaching English there to save up enough money to get back to Ireland. And so we've been through a lot together. And you know, my dad.
50:00
The one who said, like, and we've worked together. We worked at a restaurant together for a time, and my dad was, like, giving me this advice, like, you know, you've you lived in a tent for two months in Italy. You've, like, run out of money in Prague, you've worked together. Like, God damn it. Just proposed to her already,
50:20
and it was the most it was the worst proposal in the most romantic place. We were in Positano, in the Al mafi coast, gorgeous. And I talking to my dad. I held the phone apart, or I put my hand over the phone for a second. I said, Hang on, Heather. Was sitting on a bench away. And I said, Hey, Heather, my dad thinks we should get married.
50:45
And after that, we started talking about it.
50:49
We're like, it would also help with the immigration thing, since I'm Canadian and she's American,
50:54
and and, and I took the advice of my dad, who failed three marriages
51:00
as well. But, yeah, there you go. Well, it's, I mean, it's interesting, because what you're describing, there's a sort of a core thing. People ask me, you know, will we make it? Right? I'm like, I have no idea. I've been doing this since 2007 and I still can't predict who's going to make it or who's not going to make it. And it comes down to this sort of core inside that the couples who are struggling cover up with poor coping strategies, resentment, anger, blah, blah, blah. And when you start to peel away at those things, that core shows back up. And it sounds as if the two of you have a core related to some of the things actually that fit very well with your ADHD, sort of a spontaneity, not worrying as much about, you know, what the future is going to bring, sort of living more in the moment, being able to be flexible, having a sense of adventure, some of those kinds of things, is sort of what you're describing there. And so you have that strong core.
52:00
By the time people get to me that core is almost always hidden,
52:05
and they can't even identify it either. They can tell me why they fell in love with each other, but,
52:11
but they can't really find that anymore, and so part of the work, of working with a couple is is uncovering that core, digging through the sand and all the other debris has piled up. Do you find that the it's the neurotypical person in the relationship that tends to need the most amount of work? And by work I mean strategy, support as opposed because like, I feel like, if, like, I've been I was diagnosed last year. Of course, I went all in on ADHD, and I've learned a lot through therapy. Focus there, yeah, yeah. Go figure, right, yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah. The irony does not escape me,
52:54
but I've learned so much. But so if you've, if you've been diagnosed as an adult, and you've spent maybe a couple of years kind of learning about it.
53:05
I'm curious if it's the neurotypical person that might need more. I'm not blaming anyone here, but I'm just saying, you know, it varies couple to couple, and a lot of it depends upon the emotional volatility of the two people. So if you have an emotionally volatile relationship, you cannot work on that relationship until the emotions are calmed down somewhat. And so part of the core, one of the core characteristics of ADHD for many people, is emotional volatility, which, when you're struggling, often, will turn into anger and other things the person with the ADHD must be willing to start to address that, whether they do it through DBT, or they do it through medication, or they do it through other kinds of trauma therapy, whatever they need, or ifs or whatever, they have to be willing to do that. If they don't, they won't make it
53:58
sorry. What's ifs internal family systems. Okay, so it's a way of taking a look at the different parts of you and understanding how they interact and how you interact with them. So you know, one part of you is afraid to do something, another part of you is proud about something, whatever, learning these parts coming much more cognizant of who you are being able to name like I'm feeling anxious right now, or this part of me is a protective part, and I can see that it's right, you know, standing up to protect me right now. What's it protecting me from that kind of stuff that's helpful? Yeah, sorry. Go on now. It's a really, really interesting modality of therapy for people with ADHD, I find a lot of people really helps to impart around shame and and fear and issues that are emotional, that have been in there for a long time are not about the relationship, but about growing up with ADHD in a world that wasn't necessarily accepting of it.
54:59
So.
55:00
So, so anyway, so if you have that going on in either partner, you could have an anger problem in a non ADHD partner as well that needs to be cleared out. And then I think that each partner has
55:13
an equally difficult task or an equally large task. It's just a different task. If you know a person who says, who has ADHD, who's in a relationship where the ADHD is a problem, who says, I love myself the way I am, take me or leave me. I don't want to work on anything. There's a consequence to that. And I do run into those people, and they have the right to make that choice. That's totally up to them, if that's what they want to do, but they might not be with the right partner, because their relationship is about your interactions, right, not about just saying, you know, love me or too bad, the non ADHD partners have a completely different path. Typically, it's about learning who their partner really is, what their strengths and weaknesses are, not being in love with some fantasy person, but being in love with the person that you have in front of you, and really
56:06
learning how to what, how to respond to ADHD, both to save their own value system and make sure that they're in alignment with that, and also to accommodate somebody who's quite different from what they probably expected when they got married. So those are two huge tasks
56:26
and
56:28
and so I think it's not one or the other, it's just different. And I like what you said about
56:36
addressing those, you know, other things, whether they're comorbidities like anxiety or or whether they're like anger, even in the neurotypical person, like, like, addressing those concerns,
56:49
you know, as part of that healing process, to develop strategies. Because, like, I know, I learned that, you know, life expectancy of a undiagnosed and untreated, ADHD, or can be up to 13 years less, according to Russell Barkley, and part of that reasoning is because people are treating, and I'm paraphrasing, of course, but people are, people are treating the the problems, but not the root cause of the problem. So the root cause of the problem could be ADHD, but you have
57:24
anxiety or depression or addiction to something, or you're overeating or whatever it is, yeah? And you're not into an accident, because people with ADHD are more accident prone, yeah, yeah. They have, you know, issues with money, man, a whole bunch of things. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you're not, so you're so in order to, let's say, lose weight, you can't just always work on losing weight. You have to work on you have to address ADHD, could, which could be the root cause of the excessive eating, or whatever it is. You're still treating that, but you're also treating like this is what I've done with my therapist, treating my anxiety as well as my ADHD, and kind of going back and forth on the so I find that that's been really helpful. This has been incredible, and I've really been looking forward to chatting with you, and I you did not disappoint. Is there anything, anything else you'd like to share before we before we wind it down?
58:22
You know, I gotta tell you, I don't think so, other than to say to the couples, you know, don't lose hope. Go out, get get get informed and and there are specific ways to address the parent child, dynamic, the chore wars, the misinterpretations of ADHD, symptoms, how to manage ADHD, all that stuff
58:44
and and so I hope that I wish everybody good luck, actually, yeah, and we're Thank you. And where can people get a hold of you find your curriculum and books and all that good stuff? So my website is at ADHD marriage.com
59:01
and my books are, wherever you would buy books, there's two of them, the ADHD effect on marriage, which is the first one and gives a good overview. And then the second one is called the couple's guide to thriving with ADHD. It delves more deeply into specific issues that are emotionally difficult and the sort of emotions on both sides as well as the strategies to approach approach those and that includes chore wars and parent child dynamics and some of the real biggies as well. So and then I, you know, my seminar. I give the seminar three times a year. I'm taking on a co host with me soon, and and then support groups throughout the year, and etc. So that's great, awesome. Well, thank you so much. This has been fun. Yeah, thank you.
