PODCAST. Fitness, Food, and a Good Living with ADHD with Jessica Covington.

The Mind-Body Connection and ADHD: Insights from Holistic ADHD Coach Jessica Covington

Welcome to the ADHD Wise Squirrels Podcast! In this episode, host Dave Delaney sits down with Jessica Covington, a holistic ADHD coach based in Atlanta, Georgia, whose work reaches clients across the U.S. and internationally. Jessica’s unique approach combines her passion for movement, mindfulness, and systems to help clients shed stigma and live vibrant, productive lives.

About Jessica Covington and Fitology

Jessica is the founder of Fitology.com, where she integrates her background in dance, human resources, and coaching to offer a body-first approach to ADHD support. Her journey began with her son's ADHD diagnosis, which led to her own discovery. With a degree in dance and a research-driven mindset, Jessica created a coaching framework focused on empowering clients—especially late-diagnosed women with ADHD.

Highlights from the Episode

A Body-First Approach to ADHD

• Contrarian Beginnings: Jessica realized many ADHD treatments focus on the brain first. With her dance background, she flipped the script, starting with movement to activate the brain.

• Mind-Body Synergy: Movement doesn’t need to be structured dance—it can be as simple as standing up, balancing on one leg, or incorporating cross-body exercises. These movements enhance brain function, focus, and mood.

Breaking the Stigma

• Jessica highlights the significant shame and stigma that often accompanies ADHD diagnoses, particularly for women. Her mission is to help clients recognize their unique gifts and shed the emotional burdens that dim their potential.

The Four-Point Framework

Jessica’s coaching model provides a flexible structure tailored to each client:

1. Movement: Complex or exertive activities to stimulate cognitive function.

2. Nutrition: Focused on supporting brain health with magnesium, omega-3s, protein, and hydration.

3. Metacognition and Mindfulness: Learning how your brain works and creating strategies to work with it, not against it.

4. Systems, Habits, and Tools: Developing personalized routines and tools to simplify daily life and overcome time blindness.

Movement as a Catalyst

Jessica shared practical movement tips:

• Use intervals of high-intensity activity to boost mood.

• Engage in "accidental exercise," like walking the dog or moving furniture.

• Customize movement to suit your interests—whether it’s yoga, walking, or even playful activities with kids.

Nutrition and ADHD

Jessica doesn’t promote weight loss as a goal but instead focuses on adding brain-friendly nutrients like magnesium, omega-3s, and colorful vegetables. Dave emphasizes hydration, noting how often dehydration is mistaken for hunger.

Dave shared his own challenges with excessive eating, discussing the role of mindfulness in identifying patterns and making more conscious choices. Together, they explored how to combat the allure of processed foods, with Jessica encouraging listeners to replace shame with awareness and intentionality.

Time Blindness and Systems for Success

Time blindness is a common struggle for people with ADHD. Jessica suggests:

• Using visual tools like ADHD timers, apps, or even tactile aids like base-10 blocks to grasp time.

• Embracing analog and digital calendars to track recurring events.

• Simplifying routines and creating backup plans (Plan Bs) to accommodate disruptions.

Dave shared his coping mechanisms for punctuality, illustrating how preparation and intentional time management can help overcome ADHD challenges.

The ADHD-Entrepreneurship Connection

Jessica and Dave touched on the significant overlap between ADHD and entrepreneurship. Studies suggest that people with ADHD are significantly more likely to start their own businesses. They thrive in environments that allow for flexibility, creativity, and autonomy—hallmarks of entrepreneurship.

Key Takeaways

• Grace Over Shame: Progress begins with self-awareness and self-compassion.

• The Power of Movement: Small, intentional actions can have a big impact on focus, mood, and productivity.

• Mindset Shifts: Reframing challenges and aligning with personal strengths can unlock potential.

• Finding Your System: Everyone’s ADHD is unique—find tools and habits that work for you.

About Jessica Covington

Jessica’s work empowers clients to embrace their ADHD as a strength, not a weakness. Learn more about her coaching at Fitology.com, where you’ll find resources like the ADHD Strength Hub and links to her social channels.

Join the Conversation

Do you have insights, tips, or experiences related to ADHD? Share them with us on social media and join the Wise Squirrels community to connect with other late-diagnosed adults navigating ADHD in the workplace and beyond.

Thank you for listening to the ADHD Wise Squirrels Podcast! Be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who needs to hear it. Consider becoming a Patreon today by visiting us on Patreon at patreon.com/c/wisesquirrels. Thank you.

• Transcript

   I'm Jessica Covington. I'm a holistic ADHD coach working and living in Atlanta, Georgia, but working all over, thank goodness, uh, for technology that allows me to help clients across the country and even across the pond. Nice. Um, yeah. Yeah. And tell me a little bit about that. So what led you to fit ology and where can folks find you by the way? It's fit dash ology. com. Is that right? That's exactly right. Okay. Fitology. com. Yeah. Fitology. com. What led me to this is, Was my son's diagnosis when he was about seven years old. We found out he had ADHD and I Am a researcher by nature, so I jumped into all the literature I could find trying to understand his mind and how to help him and I quickly began to realize a number of things The first was how familiar it all sounded which is what led to my own ADHD diagnosis about a year later Hmm Second, that I guess because of my background in dance, I was looking at all of it through sort of a physical fitness body mind connection lens. I also started to see that everybody else in the field was going about the whole thing top down. They were, they were going at the brain first to try and get the body to cooperate. Yeah. And maybe I, maybe it's the ADHD, maybe I would have been a natural contrarian anyway, but I knew I could do it backwards because I know the body and mind are always connected. So I thought, ah, I'm going to give this a shot going body first to get the brain online. And then the fourth thing I realized, especially as I transitioned into working mostly with adult women in ADHD, is all of the shame and stigma that is attached to it and what that does to us as people, and how it really dims our light. So part of what I want to do in this realm of coaching is to help people. People shed that shame and stigma so they can really bring their gifts to bear in the world and do Good things and what is the background in in dance to uh, tell us a little bit about that Well, I started when I was three and I just never was able to to really get away from it. I've been dancing ever since Majored in it in college. So my college degrees in dance and, with an arts degree like that I had to take a circuitous route. It didn't always pay the bills. So I ended up with. Another career in human resources, which really was a form of coaching and in its own way. Yeah But I just I love it. I think that it is the coping strategy that helped me get through being an undiagnosed Kid with ADHD because it it gave my brain enough jobs to do in the dance studio. And so So I'm really grateful for that. And, and for the lens it's given me to see this, this whole world through. Yeah. Cause it gives you, you know, this ability to hyper focus into something you're passionate about. I mean, it's part of the reason why we're talking right now on this podcast is, you know, I've, I'm passionate about podcasting and ADHD, so it. Was the no brainer to start this show. , So as far as dance goes and I would imagine being a non dancer. I mean, I suppose everybody can, can dance, but, um, you know, the last time I really danced was with my wife in 1998 in Ireland and it was St. Patrick's day and we were drunk and we both got hurt. So we were like, yeah. So even at our, you're going to find this especially sad, but even at our own wedding, we didn't dance. because we're like, Oh my goodness. Yeah. Does dance play a part , in the coaching that you do? Like, how does, how did the two go hand in hand? Yeah, it really is. I have to expand the definition of it, not only for myself, but also for other people. So in the scope of my coaching, it becomes just movement, whatever kind of movement feels good to a person's body. It doesn't have to be dance, doesn't have to be labeled as such or look pretty or look any certain way, really. The idea is that yeah. Again, brain and body are always connected. So if we want to move or shift something in our minds, we can start by moving or shifting something in our bodies. Even if it's just as simple as standing up from a seated position or, balancing on one leg when we're trying to really focus in and absorb some kind of complicated text Crossing the midline of the body. Um, doing, doing cross body exercises can really help integrate the two sides of the brain and get them working and communicating much better. That's interesting. So, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's fascinating research and there's a lot of it out there. I mean, sometimes people think, I'm just making this up 'cause I like to. Move around a lot, but, and that is true, but I'm not making it up. There's actually a, a great big body of research showing that the body and its movements can really, the physiology affects psychology in a way. Yeah. And I can see how that would be the case, right? Like for example, just even the idea of. Getting up and like going out and walking the dog and clearing my head. I mean, that alone has been incredibly helpful for me just to get out of the house and stretch my legs and walk the dog. And if you're walking outside, that incorporates the sunlight and the green time and the visual tracking that's the movement of the eyes from side to side, which reduces anxiety. You get that change of scenery and a broader perspective. So good for you. Yeah. And also exercise to even base level exercise, like going for a walk. Like exercise, we know that at least, and again, not a doctor, nor do I play one on the internet, but, uh, you know, my understanding is with exercise that does help. I mean, it helps everybody, obviously, but with ADHD, especially, it can be helpful. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So what does that look like? So, so if, uh, You know, you're working with a new client, let's say you're coaching a new client and she has late diagnosed ADHD and has just found out, you know, and she's trying to kind of get her life she's hopefully seeing a therapist and hopefully perhaps on medication for the ADHD and she's got that sort of sorted out. She's talking to you. What does that look like? What kind of, what would that look like? As far as what steps would you take to, to help? Yeah. I love it when people can access those other tools as well. Sometimes people will ask, well, what's, do I need both therapy and coaching? What's the difference between them? And I always say it's great if you can have access to both, because in my mind, Um, coaching is like the bridge between the thought and feeling work of therapy and the daily execution of the changes you want to make, right? So what it looks like is, um, this, this four point framework that I've put together over the, over the years, many, many experiments, a lot of research and many clients, uh, have gone into creating this four point framework that. Is loose enough. It's strong enough to be a foundation, but also loose enough to accommodate each person's needs. individual goals and needs. So the four points are movement, nutrition, metacognition and mindfulness, and then systems, habits, and tools. So when a person first comes to me, we, we talk all about what's going on in their lives right now. Particularly starting with what's going right, because I am a strength based coach. We start with what's right and how to build on that and narrow it down into, into one of those four elements. We figure out where do we need to start and then branch out from there. And you said it was, sorry, movement. What else? Nutrition. Nutrition. Nutrition's the second, metacognition and mindfulness, which is really, doesn't have to mean meditation, it can, but it doesn't have to. It's really a matter of getting to know how your mind works, getting to understand it so that you can work with your brain instead of against it. Yeah. And then the fourth pillar is systems, habits, and tools. And those are all of the planners and timers and hacks that typically neurotypical people have tried to throw at us all along that really haven't worked because we haven't figured out how to tweak them and use them for our own ADHD minds. And then also the natural frustration that comes after finding the perfect solution and it works until it doesn't, until we lose that novelty, the novelty wears off and suddenly it's like, for some reason, we're not able to do that, that thing anymore. It's, yeah, yeah, it's, uh, it's incredibly frustrating. So let's walk through this a little bit. So as far as movement goes, what are some of the, what are the, some of the. Tips or strategies that you share with your clients on on focusing on movement? It really depends on what they want to accomplish. So one example is, , if people were looking primarily for cognitive benefits of movement, then we would work on movement that is a little more complex, a little more cognitively demanding plus movement that requires heavy exertion. So something that's demanding. Would incorporate movements of maybe two or three or maybe even all four limbs at once, and that could look a lot like dancing, although it doesn't have to, but some sort of patterned repetitive, but a little challenging movement and then heavy exertion can look like anything from. Push ups to jump squats to, wall push ups if there's some limited mobility going on. It could be anything, anything that works against gravity or works against resistance. I've even had people tell me that, in fact, I wrote an article about this. They told me that moving furniture is their favorite way to refocus when they've gotten in a slump or they've gotten too distracted. And I started thinking about that and, and, and. reading up on it. And I realized, well, that, okay, that's just plain heavy exertion because you're moving couches and you're rolling up rugs and moving stuff around. It makes perfect sense that that would be, that would be satisfying. Does a person move their like couch and rug to like the other side of the room or, or are they like, Oh wow. Okay. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. If folks are looking for mainly an improvement in mood, I would suggest doing Some kind of movement in fairly intense intervals, so if they were out for a walk, for instance, they might, if their, if their regular casual walking pace is at a level three, let's say, then I would ask them to pick up the pace to a level five or six for a period of time, say 20 seconds, maybe 30 seconds, and then back it back down to a three and repeat that cycle over and over again. And that fits into the, like the, the couch to 5k app. I remember I was using that a long time ago and a good one. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it would walk you through like you could, yeah, it would tell you when to run basically. Yeah. And there are all kinds of ways to incorporate interval training from, from walking and running to biking, to stuff you can even do in place, basically like jumping jacks. Yeah. Yeah. Anytime we use our muscles, especially, again, lifting resistance. So weightlifting is great for improving learning and memory and mood because our muscles in a way, talk to our brain and. Um, increase all of the things that need to happen, the blood circulation, um, the neurotransmitters and everything that needs to happen in order to make her brain work better and improve mood at the same time. Makes sense. And are there strategies you use to help people stay on some sort of exercise plan? Like it doesn't have to be something intense, but I do find that. Even myself, like I've always been a big proponent of accidental exercise. Uh, as long as I'm doing it, which is difficult when you live in the burbs, but like when I lived in Toronto, like I live downtown, so I would ride my bike everywhere and that, so it was like this accidental exercise of, or, or just being in a walkable city, um, which sadly Nashville is not, um, uh, just being out and about like, I, I, I remember the first time I took my kids to New York and they were blown away by how skinny everybody was. Or not, you know, they're like, wow, cause I live in Nashville. I live in the South, and I mean, obesity is already a problem, obviously in this country. Um, but you look around at people and you're like, wait a minute. Like most of the people are not fat because they're walking everywhere. Like, that's a big part of it. And it's this like accidental exercise where you're going from point A to point B. And, and exercise is, is, uh, a natural. Result of that, but as far as like knowing what to do. Which often is the case for us. We know what to do. We like, I have the weights downstairs. I have the bench. I have the treadmill and I don't use it. How do I use it? How? Jessica, help me. It's so common. It really is probably the biggest speed bump. The biggest obstacle we run into. You folks can get really excited about it at first, but then have trouble keeping the pattern going. So, so yeah, there are a number of strategies and I always start with just making a 1 percent change, you know, even if you did one bicep curl, that's still better than zero. Yeah. And those little tiny changes will add up over time. The other important thing is to, to figure out how it works for that individual person. You know, not everybody is a morning exerciser, for instance. Not everybody is going to want to lift weights. Not everybody will want to go out for a walk. We have to figure out what's really right for that person and how it can fit into their weekly schedule. Consistently, um, that tends to be a bigger issue than the, the, the want, the desire to do it. People almost always want to do it, but they lose control of their calendars or they, they just aren't able to figure out logistically how to sneak it in. So sometimes that accidental exercise really does come into play, you know, instead of I was talking to a, uh, Client the other day, mom, whose kids are in soccer. And so we were talking about what is, what to do when she misses her noontime yoga class and she's got soccer with the kids in the afternoon. It was pretty simple to figure out, well, she doesn't have to be right there at the soccer field or pitch, I guess it's called the whole time. She could go for a walk at that point or, you know, sneak off and, you know, If she finds a place that she feels is private enough, she can do some yoga there or any number of things. Um, I love to, I love to tell folks to have a plan B for when things get disrupted, whether it's work stuff or exercise stuff or anything else. So a lot of times we'll just have that plan B in the, in the back of our minds in case what we were trying to do gets disrupted. That's Not only a great practical tip, but also sometimes can appeal to novelty and our love of new things and shaking up the routine a bit. So even, even sometimes when people are just getting bored with doing the same old workout routine, they whip out their plan B and all of a sudden it's a little bit, Shiny are a little bit brighter and newer and it's a little more fun. Yeah, yeah, no, that makes, that makes a lot of sense. So getting into that, into that movement and then shifting into the nutrition side of things, like one thing that I've struggled with. Is excessiveness and it used to be like I'm four years sober, so it used to be with beer or, or, you know, whatever, like cigarettes when I smoked 25, 30 years ago. Um, but, and what I learned over time was that because of my excessive ness, I didn't realize that like, that's why I was finishing all the kids leftovers. Oh, and so I would eat all my food, all of my wife's food that was leftover and then the chicken fingers and then the fries because they were leftover on the kids. I'm like, you're gonna eat that. Um, and I would eat that all too. So as far as diet goes and nutrition, what, what are your, what are your thoughts and strategies there? Yeah. It's such a complex issue. I find that mindfulness and metacognition comes into that a lot because sometimes, like in the pattern you just described, Sometimes what's going on is either a search for more dopamine by getting more and more and more food, or it's just a simple lack of awareness. You know, maybe the mind is distracted thinking about something else and, and the hand is picking up the fries without even really giving it a lot of thought or tuning into what's happening. Um, When I, when I talk about nutrition in my practice, it's, it's, it may result in weight loss at some point, but it's, that's never the goal for us. So I don't, I don't do any sort of weight loss regimen or programming. Right. Instead, what I love to do is help people add in foods that really support brain health and in particular ADHD brain health. We're finding more and more now that ADHD bodies tend to be. Naturally a little bit low in certain nutrients that can easily be found in plants. Preferably in foods, and if not in foods, then in supplements, of course, with doctor's approval. Um, magnesium is a great example of that. We just, we just tend to run a little low on magnesium. It's a great central nervous system calming agent, but we're low in it. And certain ADHD medications can lower it even further. So, especially for those that are on meds, we want to talk about magnesium. Getting enough magnesium. Water is another huge one. A hydrated brain is a healthy brain. So we have to be sure, one way or another, we're getting enough water. Even if it needs to be flavored, even if we need a different flavor every day to keep it fun and fresh. Yeah, yeah. We've got to get the water in. And then there are other things that, that come into play as well, like, um, like Omega 3s, making sure we have enough protein at every meal and snack, because protein is the building block of neurotransmitters. Mm hmm. In addition to keeping blood sugar stable and level, we want to be sure we're getting enough fiber and keeping the gut microbiome healthy. So, It's a complicated issue. I don't think there's a one size fits all, but when it comes to fitting into this practice, it's a little, a little more general, a little broader. And again, I like to focus on adding versus subtracting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've learned over, over the years, I forget where I read it. It was, uh, health, healthy mind book. Um, and it was about how, when you feel, if you feel hungry or excuse me, yeah, if you feel hungry, you're probably thirsty. And so if you drink water instead of eating something that will probably curb the hunger. And if you feel thirsty, that means that you are probably already starting to get dehydrated. Yeah. So it's like the first sign of, of thirst is actually hunger as opposed to thirst. If that makes sense. It does make sense. And it can be especially challenging for those of us with ADHD because a lot of times we have, we either have trouble tuning into those internal cues of hunger and thirst, or we might notice they're there, but we're so busy doing something else or distracted by something else that we don't take time to attend to them. So that comes into play as well. And then with metacognition. So we're eating better. What, what were some of the, I mean, you mentioned some, some supplements like magnesium and, and, uh, uh, what was the other thing you said? Sorry. Uh, Omega three. Yeah. Mega three. Yeah. Yeah. So like I take fish oil every morning. Um, and, uh, Of course, my stimulants as well. What, what are the other, like, what are some of the foods or things that you recommend people not miss? I know it's not a one size fits all and it's, different strokes for different folks, but generally speaking, is there stuff that would benefit us to eat four apples a day instead of one? Or, well, I don't know. What are your thoughts? Coming back to that protein, we want to be sure that we're getting enough of that from, from any source, my particular personal preference is plant sources, but protein can be found a lot of different places. Foods that are rich in vitamin B are really important for everybody, but especially those of us with dopamine challenges, uh, iron rich foods. Things that are high in fiber., What are some examples of the foods that you're talking about? Oh gosh. Uh, well, B12 can be found in almost anything that has protein. Um, leafy greens, lots and lots of vegetables, everything colorful. Everything from berries to sweet potatoes, to beach, I mean, yeah, It's almost like the basic guidance you would hear from anybody well schooled in how to eat a balanced diet. Yeah. Yeah. Look for lots of color. Look for lots of vegetables. Try to stay away from the processed stuff as much as you can. Stay away from the unhealthy trans fat type fats and stick with the healthier ones instead, like coconut, avocado, olive oil. Yeah. It's amazing, isn't it? That like we all know this or. We probably do and, and yet it's still a problem for so many people. I like, you know, it's just, it, it, yeah, it's, it's weird. It's like, I almost think of it like when I smoked cigarettes and tried to quit and when I was so off so many times trying to quit and failing, um, but knowing like, God, like, I just, I don't want to smoke anymore. Like, I do not want to smoke. I'd even take like a half a pack of cigarettes and crush it up and throw it in the garbage and be like, that's it. I'm done. And then like be at the store buying cigarettes again. But it's almost like that. It's like, we know the Doritos are not helping us in any way. Possible way. And yet we're like chomping away. Like I know that, that there's plenty of science and design in these highly processed foods that, I mean, it's, they like technology. They're designed to be addictive. They're designed, the crunch, the color, the sound, the smell, the flavor, like it's all. Designed in these foods to be addictive, which is insane to me and pure evil. Um, but it's there and, and yet there I am, you know, having a Dorito chip or something, what, what do you recommend people do in that moment when they're trying to make those changes? And. Yeah, your, you know, your, your client, she's trying her best and she's, you know, obviously we're giving herself grace and we know, like, it's not always possible to do things, but we're hungry. So we buy, we open the kids leftover chips and eat those. Like, how do we stop ourselves? Yeah, this is one spot where that shame we talked about really comes into play, you know, even though we know that, you know, Big food is engineered to draw us in and, and keep us eating more and more. Yeah. Somehow we forget that part in favor of telling ourselves these negative messages about, oh, I should put this down. How can I, how can I be this way? I'm just so, I'm just, there's something wrong with me. There's a moral or character flaw in me that's making me do this. So, cool. Absolutely. We definitely start first with grace and understanding and education, you know, really understanding why bodies and even brains crave those particular kinds of foods. Awareness is really key, you know, it's, I always congratulate people whenever they manage to notice that they have picked up the kid's chip bag and opened it. Even if, even if they go ahead and eat the whole thing, if they have noticed that they did it, that's a win. That's the very first step. Yeah. And the more we notice, the more we can begin to shift and change and make decisions for ourselves out of love instead of fear or fear. Or shame. So eventually we're working to the point where, you know, if I'm, if I'm the client, I noticed the kid's chip bag, I noticed myself being drawn to it. And I'm able to pause just long enough to say, is this a decision that respects myself or, or is there a better decision I can make? And so that's, that's where we're trying to get to. It's a long road. It requires patience and diligence and discipline. The good news about discipline is every time we notice, every time we make a better change, every time we work through the resistance of being drawn to that sugary snack, and also staying away from it. It strengthens our power for the next time it lays down those neural pathways and reinforces the ability Later to say no, i'm not going to do that. I'm going to reach for an apple instead Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think I think that's a great point. I think it is a matter of this is where mindfulness and meditation come in for me too because it's it if you can be present more often and if you can reframe your thoughts and Like even In whatever way that works for you. So for example, let's say you're going to, you know, you, you see a bag of Skittles, uh, left on the table and the kids don't want them. And so I've said, you go, you can have them like. Depending on who you are, I suppose, if you know that the U S I think maybe Singapore are the only countries in the world that still allow the red dye that is poison for us, California has put in laws to ban it, thankfully, and hopefully that will spread across the country. But at least to my knowledge, I believe it's still there. And, and so if I go to Canada, if I go back to Toronto to see friends and family. If I buy Skittles in Toronto, I know I'm getting quality. No, I'm not. It's still poison, but, but it doesn't have that red dye poison. That they put into foods in the U. S. Excluding California, I suppose. Um, and so for me, that pisses me off. That's like if I see my kids eating Skittles, I'm like, throw those in the garbage. Like, why don't you just have a cigarette, you know, and I'm like, Like, why don't you just have some Scotch or something? Because it's so frustrating because these things are designed not just to be a, not only to be addictive, but also designed with these different chemicals that are poison for us. And yet for some reason, the powers that be still allow us to consume those. And I don't, it's, it's incredibly disheartening and frustrating. So, so for me, it's, it's a matter of, again, getting back to that, like reframing, it's pausing. It's partly, of course, it's information and getting back to the point that we were talking about earlier where it's like, you know, listening listener, you know, like it's the fruits and vegetables, the colorful things as you've talked about, Jessica, like, you know, the stuff that you you should be eating. Um, and it's a matter of like, I guess choosing the emotion in the moment to realize like, now, screw the man, I'm not eating these skittles. Screw the man. I'm, I'm not doing it. Right. Like, forget that. Um, or maybe it's more like I'm hungry, so I'm, I have those skittles in front of me, but guess what? I remember on the podcast when Dave was talking about hunger being thirst, so maybe I should just drink some water and see what happens. And then maybe that's all you need to do. Exactly. Yeah. And that's actually a way we can get. That challenge to work in our favor, especially if we are, um, if we have ADHD with that rebellious sort of PDA profile, if we're a huge fan of sticking it to the man, we can use that and say, No, those skittles are not the boss of me. I'm the boss of me. And I'm choosing different. Yeah. Yeah. Especially effective with teenagers. Parents out there who are listening. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, yeah, it's definitely, that's why this is not a show about parenting or, or, or kids. Cause I've got two of my own and, uh, I'm lucky that they're both great kids, but gosh, yeah, it's, uh, that's a whole other ball of wax. All right. So getting into some of the, so we talked, I guess we touched on medical cognition a little bit there with mindfulness. Um, any, anything else you'd like to add to that? Any tips or ideas that people can try and. Um, you know, you, you mentioned how emotions come into play, and I think that's worth a little bit of attention to is something we spend a lot of time on in coaching because so many of our challenges come from feelings that are underneath the surface and either haven't been expressed or haven't even been recognized. And so, so a lot of times when we're dealing with Really classic ADHD challenges like procrastination. Getting at the emotion that underlies that is really important. It can be difficult and it is definitely enhanced by therapy for those folks who are able to deal with it. To do both therapy and coaching, but it can be a really, a really powerful way to begin to understand our minds and again, work with them instead of against them. Once we recognize what those emotions are, then we can either express them, release them, offload them, or figure out how to make them work in our favor. Yeah. For me, like the emotion of overwhelm is the thing that I've landed on. Thanks to my therapist that for me, I jotted it down in my journal. I wrote overwhelm equals paralysis equals stagnation. And then I wrote overwhelm is the enemy for me. because when there was too many options and I think it gets back to working out for me where. I have all these different weights and bands and stuff. And I just sometimes don't know where to start. And, and instead of figuring out starting, like instead of choosing to start, maybe, I stick with the overwhelm and then that overwhelm leads me to not do anything as it pertains to that piece. So that paralysis, and then I'm just stuck and then it's been months and I haven't done anything. And that's that stagnation piece. Yeah. Yeah. The lack of clarity really gets in our way when we, when we're clear, you know, for instance, we, we, or we've had somebody plan out a workout the day before or a week before or whatever. And you know exactly what you're going to do, you know exactly which equipment to use. You can get in there, get it done and boom, boom, boom. It all works fine. Yeah. But without that clarity comes in the overwhelm and so many. micro decisions to make that feel exhausting. And then we probably start telling ourselves all kinds of things about what that means that, you know, lies about what it says about our character, that we can't just go in there and throw together a workout. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That'd be a sure way to stop anybody. Yeah. And then you talked about systems, right? The, the S H T acronym on your site. \ tell us about that and kind of how that piece fits into that. I don't see how anybody at all can function today without some kind of calendar, but not every calendar works for every person. So. We have to find customized ways to keep track of all the things that we need to do and all the times that they need to get done. This is especially true for If the people I work with who tend to be busy moms , often with jobs of their own plus households to manage and lots of, they're functioning as the executive function for other people as well as for themselves. So we work really hard to find the right solution for each person. Often that's a combination of digital and analog tools. So, you know, carrying around a notebook as well as a phone with a digital calendar. We also work on simplifying and creating systems and routines for recurring events, like getting ready to go in the morning or Creating a meal plan for the week, or really anything that needs to be done on a regular rotating basis. We try to take out the fat, bring it down to its simplest, cleanest version. And of course, recruit help whenever we can to get everybody in on the action. We just try to make it as seamless as possible so that it can be repeated. That's it. without too much effort and with that clarity that we talked about to reduce the overwhelm. There are all kinds of different tools we can use from apps to whiteboards to all kinds of number of, um, things, both tangible and intangible that can help us get all of our done in a timely manner. One example that comes to mind is that a lot of times people with ADHD have a tough time imagining time. We either try to pack too much in, as we're headed out the door in five minutes for instance, we imagine that we can vacuum the rug and also send off an email. As we're walking out the door, right? It just doesn't, it just doesn't work that way. And sometimes that's the result of literally being unable to perceive time in the way that other people do. So a tool that we might use in that case is something that allows the person to visualize time. So whether that means we write it out, color coded on graph paper, or we use, Blocks a lot of times. Um, have you ever heard of base 10 blocks kids use them often for base 10 base 10 blocks are used for Learning math most of the time. Okay, but they can also be really important for visualizing time so if we imagine that each red block is five minutes and we can string those together to Touch and feel and see How long 30 minutes really is it's six blocks long Versus one block long, and we can then begin to see more easily what's going to fit into one block versus six blocks. So it sounds, it sounds really simple and sometimes even silly, but it's real for those of us who have trouble imagining time and putting it in our hands helps to make that more concrete and easier to work with. Yeah. I like the idea of visualizing it or looking at it differently. Cause certainly a time blindness is, is very real and it's something I definitely have, um, uh, for periods. It's, it's, yeah, it's fascinating. I'm. I'm kind of the opposite in that, like, as far as sort of that, the cliche being late for things, I'm always on, I'm always early for things rather than late because I'm anal about punctuality. But I think it's mainly because of the coping mechanisms I put into place. I, you know, I would blame like my dad always making me be punctual and, and things as a kid. And now I'm like, well, I think I've actually learned it as a coping mechanism. To make sure. So, so for example, if I'm going to a meeting, I won't show up in the office to meet the person or at the coffee shop or what have you, uh, until the, the time I'm supposed to be there, because I'm not going to get there and sit in the waiting area for an hour, like, like a freak. Uh, right. Like, and I also don't want to be rude to, um, you know, sometimes if you have a coffee meeting, the person that you're meeting might have had a car. If they're. If, if they've planned it with you, like they may have had another meeting before yours. And so you can walk in the coffee shop and then there's that awkward moment when you see the person and you're like, oh, there was somebody. And you've now got to like, go sit across the coffee shop and wait until it's your turn. Um, and so, um, I've experienced that both coaching myself in person and, and also being on both sides of that, I suppose. So for me, it's always a matter of like, yeah, I will get there early, but I will sit in my car and listen to a podcast or work on something instead of, uh, going in early. Um, so punctuality, yeah, the plan. Yeah, exactly. The plan B. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's it. True. True. That's a good point. Like it's about, because I've worked for myself for 13 years, it's a matter of always trying to. Allocate time and use it in a, in a way that's going to benefit me or my, like my business, if it's, you know, during the workday. So rather than sit in the car and watch Netflix on my, on my phone, I may sit in the car and write some emails or write a blog post or what have you. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, this is awesome. This is, this is great stuff. This is fascinating. And with the systems in visualizing things, I think, you know, you talked about the bricks, are there other ways to visualize time that you find works? Well, yeah, you know, uh, there are any number of visual timers out on the market right now that work for some people. Um, I've had people tell me before that around clock face around analog clock. Doesn't make any sense to them. Hmm. But that if we were to take the same numbers and spread them out into a straight line, then it makes more sense. And that's just, that's like the simplest tweak. I have yet to find a clock that goes, that's a horizontal line left to right. But we can write it down. Yeah. We can make it work that way. Uh, and then. Draw in some digital tools as well. Yeah. Um, yeah, I use like apps. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say even an hourglass might work. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Absolutely. There are lots of apps out there. One of the things that a lot of folks end up enjoying is, um, a timer. I like insight timer. I don't, I'm not affiliated. I don't get anything for that. But insight timer is terrific for. having a chime repeat at an interval that you choose. So let's say 15 minutes, there are four blocks of 15 minutes in an hour. So I can implant in my brain that the first time I hear the chime, that means 15 minutes have passed and so on. And that, that tends to be helpful for a lot of people so they can not, not Exactly visualize it, but they can remember the passing of time, especially when they're absorbed in something that has captured their interest. Finally, they they're focused. They need to be sure that they're not too focused. Yeah, so that that repeating time can help too. It's interesting with time. I think like I almost I almost feel that if you have ADHD and you suffer from time blindness and you're not treating your ADHD. So you're not aware that you have ADHD. Let's say, um, it's almost as if our lives are shorter. Hmm. If that's interesting and I bet. It's just my hunch. I bet that that's tied somehow to. The dopamine and probably adrenaline cycle, the stress cycle, because when we're, when we're under stress, the time horizon really shortens, you know, if there's, if there's a crisis right in front of us, we know that we can't afford to think about anything except solving this problem in front of us right this minute, right now. Yeah. Yeah. But when we're feeling more relaxed, say we're on, you know, vacation and we're looking out at the hills of Tuscany or some other beautiful scene and everything's wonderful, our friends and family are around, we're feeling terrific and relaxed. We don't feel that urgency to the moment. You know, we tend to, the time horizon is much further out into the future, it seems. So I wonder. about what you're saying. It's, it's having ADHD unrecognized raises our level of stress to the point that the horizon always feels very close and time feels much shorter. Do you think there's anything to that? I think you're spot on about that. And I think The way like time goes by very quickly in matters when adrenaline is high. So like, for example, if you've ever had to call 911 for, for something, chances are you, you called again, 30 seconds later asking, well, where's the ambulance or where's the police car or fire truck or whatever. Um, so I feel like, uh, At that point of adrenaline, the time is just flying by and I'm, and I'm speaking from my own personal experience in calling 911 once, and that is exactly what happened. I was like, where the hell are they? Like, why? Why are they not here yet? Now? This is child Dave. I was 11 at the time and I had undiagnosed ADHD. So, um, I, there's this thing, not to go completely off topic or, or digress too far here, but, I actually had this idea this morning about trying to find a neurotypical person to, that really doesn't know much about ADHD or anything like that. And, and to talk to a neurotypical person. About this to find out, like, what is it like to be a neurotypical person? Because I've lived most of my life. As a neurotypical person, but I haven't, I wasn't right. But I was , functioning in a neurotypical society, which we still do, regardless of whether we know we do or don't. But I almost have been thinking about this lately where I'm like, man, I would love to have a guest on the show who is a neurotypical person just to ask them, like, tell me about time for you. You know what I mean? Like just fascinating. It would be. And the problem is that like everybody I know probably has ADHD because the closest people in my life, you know, we ADHD years tend to find our people somehow magically. And, and it's the, the entrepreneurs, the creatives, and these are very much my people. But there also tend to be ADHD years as well, oftentimes. So anyway, I've gotten off on a complete bizarre tangent. Um, but I don't know, something to think about. I like it. I'd listen to that episode for sure. Is there anything, this has been fascinating. So is there anything I have not asked you about or anything you'd like to ask me about, as we wind down the conversation? Oh, gosh, well, I would love to get your insights. You've talked to so many. Different and interesting people, not just through the podcast, but through your other work as well. Do you find a common theme when it comes to the overlap of ADHD and entrepreneurship? Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. So the studies that I've read, you're 60 to 80 percent more likely to have entrepreneurial intentions if you have ADHD and you're nearly 100 percent more likely to start a business. Um, and there's so much done pack with that, but at the same time, like it just, it makes sense because, you try to fit into a neurotypical world and work for neurotypical employers or what have you. And not to say it doesn't work out because it often can, and especially nowadays when, when companies are providing accommodations and are more, thoughtful about this. But yeah, I think there is definitely a correlation because even myself, like I went out on my own 13 years ago and it hasn't always been Rosie and it's not always Rosie. It's a rollercoaster really, but at the same time, I always think that if I had a job with someone else, well, I could be laid off or fired too, so it's not always going to be Rosie there either. So, you know, it's not that I'm opposed to employment, but the entrepreneurs and business people that I know often seem like they have ADHD at least. I don't know if they do or don't. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Mm hmm. Do you find that to like with your clients? Uh, about half and half, I think roughly half of them are doing something on their own and the other half are, uh, employed by someone else and often struggling with that because of the expectations to fit into these boxes that, that we really don't fit in. Yeah. So I ended up talking about careers a lot more than I ever thought I would. Well, but it does make sense. Like, and it does the company's. And that now are the ones that are, you know, like that specifically are hiring, uh, ADHD ears or, you know, or at least providing accommodations for folks knowingly, rather than just to tick a box, but actually saying, like, if I accommodate, if I provide accommodations for this person, because this is the way their operating system is, as I say, then, um, you know, Then they're going to do better work because it's not to say you you can't have a job with adhd Obviously many many people do and and I did as well. If you're in a job where you bring, you know, well, getting back to like the adrenaline piece and things like that, like if you, you know, uh, I think it's pretty common for, for people that work in, in high, uh, uh, stress, like, uh, like an EMT or something are often ADHD years because they, they function really well in those moments of chaos when it's, you know, they, they know what to do. They spring into action and, uh, So, yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Did you, did you have any other questions, comments, thoughts? Oh, I don't think so. That's, that's a perfect segue to what I would hope to leave everyone with, which is that different, isn't a bad thing. Different is good. And we need everybody's differences in the room in order to bring out the best in work teams and families and any group of people. Yeah, there's great power and in self knowledge for sure like understanding yourself and how you function I think is that's part that's part of the reason why it's it's part of the root down this Presentation that I've developed and my next book hopefully as I plug away at that Well, this has been so much fun. Yeah Sorry. Absolutely. Me too. I love the nod to the Beastie Boys with your, Oh, thanks. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta love the, gotta love the Beastie Boys. Um, Jessica, this has been so much fun, and really informative. How can people get ahold of you and learn more about your work and reach out? Well, thank you so much. I really have enjoyed talking with you. I am on the web at fitology. com F I T dash O L O G Y. com and there you'll find links to all the socials and the ADHD strength hub and everything that we're working on here. Awesome. Great. Well, I will make sure to include links in the show notes as well. Great. Thank you, Dave. And keep up the good work. I'm loving the podcast.