PODCAST. Meditation, Emotional Management, Art & Creativity with Mateus Ashton.

Jan 17

Written By Dave

In today’s episode of our podcast for late-diagnosed adults with ADHD, Wise Squirrels, we spoke with educator, certified wellness counselor, life coach, and ADHD coach Mateus Ashton.

Understanding ADHD in Depth and the History of Ritalin.

The episode ventured into the intricate aspects of ADHD, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of how the condition affects emotional regulation, impulse control, and the daily lives of those diagnosed. Mateus Ashton's expertise illuminated the unnoticed nuances, offering a holistic view of ADHD beyond stereotypes.

Overcoming Struggles and Embracing Empathy

Challenges faced by individuals with ADHD took center stage, emphasizing the importance of fostering empathy and understanding within society. Mateus passionately discussed the struggles and the need for a more compassionate approach, debunking myths and misconceptions surrounding ADHD.

Demystifying Mindfulness and Meditation in ADHD Management

A significant portion of the conversation revolved around the therapeutic benefits of mindfulness and meditation for individuals dealing with ADHD. Practical tips and insights were shared, encouraging listeners to incorporate mindfulness practices into their daily routines as a means of effective ADHD management. The interview also touched upon the often-mystified topic of Transcendental Meditation (TM). Mateus Ashton offered alternative perspectives on TM, highlighting accessible meditation practices and dispelling misconceptions around its exclusivity.

Educational Reform and Systemic Support

Mateus Ashton advocated for essential changes in the education system to better support emotional management among individuals with ADHD. The discussion extended to the necessity of systemic support, including improved access to mental health services and insurance coverage.

Exploring Creativity and ADHD

The dialogue expanded to explore the intricate relationship between ADHD and creativity. Mateus Ashton delved into how ADHD, often portrayed as a challenge, can also be a wellspring of creativity. The conversation highlighted the unique thought processes and unconventional perspectives that individuals with ADHD bring to the table, challenging conventional notions of creativity.

Building a Supportive Community

In a forward-looking approach, Mateus Ashton introduced his upcoming free support group, which is set to launch in January. This initiative aims to provide valuable resources and assistance to individuals with ADHD, irrespective of their financial resources. The conversation emphasized the significance of creating inclusive spaces for individuals to share their ADHD experiences.

This eye-opening episode of ADHD Wise Squirrels, featuring Mateus Ashton, transcended the boundaries of a conventional podcast interview. It emerged as a powerful dialogue, offering not only insights into the unique challenges of late-diagnosed adults with ADHD but also practical advice for effective ADHD management. Mateus Ashton's advocacy for change, coupled with his upcoming support group, positions him as a beacon of support for the ADHD community.

For those navigating their ADHD journey, this episode serves as a beacon of hope, proving that they are not alone. The wisdom shared in this conversation extends far beyond the airwaves, providing a roadmap for empowerment and resilience in the face of ADHD challenges. Tune in to ADHD Wise Squirrels for more empowering discussions and expert insights.

0:00
Well, I was born in Brazil, back in the 80s. And I was adopted when I was four by Americans and grew up in America grew up in specifically Ohio, Columbus, Ohio, and, and was kind of deep into, was diagnosed with ADHD at six, and was deep into psychology and trying to understand myself pretty early on.
0:23
But uh, but yeah, I struggled with being diagnosed at six. And in the 90s, I was part of the big wave of diagnoses after Ritalin kind of became a huge thing. So I was part of that fortunately, while there was a lot of over diagnosing that time, I was one of the accurate diagnosis diagnoses and and I learned that I have ADHD from that point. And then I grew up with the very typical ADHD struggles of medic trying to find the right medication, trying to adjust for sleep trying to manage schoolwork and then realized once I had psychology one on one that I was like, Oh, this is a career I that seems fit for me. I can understand myself and help other people understand themselves and, and then kind of went to university for that and really struggled with my ADHD in the universe. Henry University, I'll be honest with you, I was on unmedicated at the time, I had gotten off medication, and when in university kind of showed me that I couldn't willpower my way through this as much as I wanted to. So I got back on medication, and then and then graduate,
1:29
went off medication for nine years after that, again, thinking that I could work my way through it. And I started off in the field,
1:38
got a little disillusioned with the field, bid from insurance companies and then got into film work, realized I needed more needed, needed a lot more focus and went back on medication and realize you know what, I'm, that's two times enough of trying to willpower, it, it's not happening. I need more strategies, I need more more structure, I need more systems, and went off to film school and realize that while I enjoy art, it's I kind of missed my psychology work. And I now
2:08
and I had someone telling me, Hey, have you ever thought about being a coach, I had my therapist at the time telling me that the things that I the way I talk about ADHD is the way that she uses it to talk to other people about it. And I was like, well, it's not. And she was like, I have a natural way of talking about this. And I already want to be and I already want to kind of get back into psychology. So I never really thought about coaching up until then. But then she said, have you tried looking into ADHD coaching? So I did. And I became trained in the Atka school for ADHD coaching. And like, literally, within two weeks of it, I fell in love immediately. And now it's my entire practice. I'm a therapist and wellness counselor and ADHD coach and I have a couple clients in, in, in counseling, but most of my practice is entirely ADHD. And I love it. It's my life now. So that's a long story short, maybe long, but no, no, but that's my that's my that's my story. Are there? No, it's, it's a great story. And I think, yeah, it's interesting. I don't you know, I don't really know, besides really stuff in pop culture, but like, as far as riddling goes, What's the verdict on Ritalin? Was it like sort of I mean, there was obviously, as you mentioned, like a lot of a lot of kids being diagnosed and treated with Ritalin back in the 80s. Maybe early I don't even know early 90s. Maybe. But
3:39
what's the verdict? Do we know? Was it good? Was it bad? Was it over to over prescribe? Was it like, what? What are? Yeah, I don't know a lot about it. Definitely, it's a lot like Prozac. When Prozac came out, it became a quick fix drug for a lot of people where they go to the therapist, and then they would get Prozac. And then they would feel better because Prozac is an SSRI, and it puts more serotonin in your system, so you can feel better, but then they don't. So then everyone's heard of saying, Well, if you have a bad mood, just take an appropriate Prozac. And it became what is colloquially dubbed Prozac nation, so to speak. So a very similar thing happened with Ritalin where Oh, you have a child who has whose x out and has all this excess energy. Well, maybe they have ADHD, and then they can get prescribed Ritalin. And so the idea of being able to manage people's children a lot easier with the drug became very popular.
4:33
And everyone started getting diagnosed with ADHD even if they didn't have ADHD irritable children started wanting this Ritalin wanting Ritalin, Rondo, Ritalin, not the children but the parents wanting to heal their children so to speak, or give them a drug to make their parenting easier. Yes, and this ended up being a bit of a ended up backfiring and a lot of people who don't actually have ADHD and were just rambunctious kids got diagnosed with a disorder and and then
5:00
They have to live with with that and challenging that. So over towards the end of the 90s, we started becoming a lot more strict on who diagnose and who and who gets it and who doesn't, the criteria became a little bit more strict. So that problem kind of got weeded out. But that's kind of what happened in the 90s. Ritalin was a super like a super drug for for ADHD. And it was one of the most powerful drugs at the time for ADHD. And people started seeing it as like a quick fix for their, their, their difficult child. And that unfortunately had a huge kind of uptick in diagnoses. And by the end of the 90s, that was smoothed out. But that's what ended up happening with Ritalin. No, thank you. Yeah, that's, that's interesting.
5:40
Yeah, nowadays, it's an iPad. Yeah.
5:45
Right. Yeah. Your kids too talkative at the restaurant and hand them an iPad.
5:50
Yeah, yeah. Drives me crazy. I didn't know the story there. But of course, yeah. As I mentioned, like pop culture, culture and things like that. I mean, certainly Ritalin is, has been mentioned, most people are at least aware of it. So with your with your background, as far as your clients go, are they late diagnosed adults like myself? Are they more like kids I know you've also worked with
6:18
in serving and helping with drug addicts, recovering addicts, I should say. Tell me a little bit about about that and who you serve? Well, there's a high prevalence of addiction in the ADHD community.
6:32
There's it's being chasing dopamine and chasing stimulation, while drugs give a lot of stimulation. So it can be very tempting for a lot of ADHD years. But yeah, I, my clientele it goes across the board, I've dealt with people who are in, like you mentioned earlier, and they're in their 60s. And, and then they're, they're learning about this for the first time. And to be honest with you, the biggest difference between the two clients, like people who find out in their 20s, or teens, or someone who finds out later, is the biggest kind of difference I've noticed is the the reconciling with the amount of time that has been spent without understanding what's going on.
7:16
There's drastically different recognitions. When they're in their 20s, they're looking back at like their teen years, or their 30s, or looking back to their 20s. And like what they could have done in the resentment and, and the the what could be ease, and the what ifs and all that stuff. And the thing I've noticed the most is that when they're older, and they're coming to terms with this, there's just a lot more of coming to terms with to be had. They're not coming to terms with just one decade, they're coming to terms with possibly five decades of their life, unregulated and unmanaged. And that's, that's a tough tool for anyone to kind of have to have to deal with. So that's a lot of the work I do with people that are that are older and diagnosed, we have to kind of work through the emotions there. And that's why I'm more of a mental health coach that specializes in ADHD than just a straight life coach who kind of only deals with like the practical stuff. That makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What are some of those strategies to help folks like that? Because and you know, asking selfishly, for myself at 50, with ADHD, just having learned while 51 now but having learned this year,
8:21
yeah, there's been there's some, there's some, there's generally considered to be three kinds of adaptive ways to responding to our strong emotional struggles. And that's acceptance, problem solving, or reappraisal or reframing. And I think those are kind of the best strategies to do towards this, you can't, it's hard to problem solve the past. So it's difficult to do that. But something we can do is accept the past for what it was. And also reframe it as instead of something that a lot of lost opportunities, we can reframe it in a way that's a bit more kind to us and say, that's actually that's where we were at that time. And that's what we were struggling with, we only had the tools that we had a disposal, and now we have different tools. So we can look at it with a bit more compassion and forgiveness to ourselves for not knowing these things. Because a lot of times, especially the older you are, these resources just worked there. They didn't exist, there wasn't a colloquial acceptance towards ADHD. So if you if you're good diagnosed in your 60s, and realize that for 50 years, you didn't, you weren't, you were operating as a teenager, at least trying to trying to manage in the world and all these opportunities you could have had, well, you grew up in a time where that wasn't also a prevalent thing on everyone's radar. So there wasn't a lot of resources there were today like you can go to att.org and find over 20 support groups that are relatively inexpensive to join that support ADHD and, and there are tons of strategies there. Those just didn't exist a long time ago. So it's like we can if we put some perspective and context there, we can start to practice forgiveness and acceptance
10:00
It's towards the fact that we only we were only ever doing what we had what was in our power to do. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, I think I, you know, when I reflect on things a lot in my life, you know, most,
10:14
I would say most of my 20s Certainly, probably earlier and even later, were spent in bars, mainly, like kind of punk rock bars in Toronto, and I was very much kind of, in that sort of scene. And
10:32
it's interesting now, because, you know, when I, I've joked here before on the show that I kind of came out of the Mental Health closet, as it were, you know, what I want I was diagnosed and you know, so I posted on Facebook and wrote an email newsletter and a blog post and so on, just kind of sharing with friends. And folks, you know, that my, my diagnosis, and I heard from a lot of people on Facebook privately, from friends from back then who are like, you would be maybe surprised or maybe not surprised to learn just how many of us have ADHD and I think there's so
11:11
I don't know, with the correlation between sort of
11:16
the sort of punk rock ethos and the Defiance the creativity, the the talent, certainly addiction, you know, going around yeah, it's it's pretty interesting to learn that and then you know, even doing research digging into like some of my, the artists that I listened to most like Jello Biafra from Dead Kennedys and Henry Rollins from Black Flag and Ian Mackay from Minor Threat and food Ghazi and all these all these incredible talented artists who have all come out years later, some earlier than others talking about their their ADHD diagnosis. Definitely. And it makes a lot of sense. I mean, ADHD, or grew up, the neurodivergent community grows up in a neurotypical world.
12:04
So the world is not built for us. It is built for neurotypical people. And what that comes, okay, well, there's a bit of a rebellion kind of thing. It's like, alright, well, you're not built for me. So I don't want to do what you're doing, I want to do what I want to do.
12:21
So it kind of a lot of alternative, alternative kind of cultural thing, things feel very resonating for a lot of aged years, because those are counterculture things. And, and the, the culture right now isn't necessarily embrace of, of neurodivergent. So counterculture is embrace a lot of different things, a lot of a lot of the nuances, the niches of things. So it makes a lot of sense to me, that people who are like, hey, there's not a spot for me here. Like the punk movements of the retaliation against kind of, I mean, we can get into history of punk music of veganism and a lot of that stuff there. But that kind of resistance towards a lot of that that kind of order and structure makes a lot of sense for ADHD errs because they're often struggle with order and structure. So going a bit more of the chaotic route is a route that would feel very emotionally validating, I would imagine for a lot of at issues. Yeah, I think a big part of it. And, you know, I've developed I do a lot of presentations. I'm a speaker and performer and so I created this presentation since being diagnosed, sharing kind of what I'm learning and sort of my own experiences, I call it the route down. And it's kind of a process that I've been sharing on, on my background. And really, the purpose of it is really to help remove stigmas, obviously about it, but also to educate people. And also, you know, empower those who feel that oh wait, maybe these these symptoms or traits kind of fit me maybe I should go see a doctor, my doctor and learn, you know, maybe I do have ADHD or maybe my kids do and you know, and that's often the case is is that Ed to Bob possibly.
14:09
Yeah, so it's interesting, but part of that presentation I talked about, you know, finding your people and finding community and certainly with the loneliness epidemic that is been, you know, rampid especially during the pandemic and and even before that, really that in the sort of punk rock world there is this like a very accepting community who accepts just about anyone as long as you're not a jerk
14:35
and even some jerks I guess that it becomes sort of a family I guess if you will. Oh, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, a lot of
14:44
Yeah, I mean, that culture counterculture thing and it's it makes sense that you find a lot of connection with that. I did the same thing I went into I didn't go into punk but I went into metal and prog rock and prog metal, and like Dream Theater and and yes, and a lot of that come
15:00
stuff and found people who are counter clash. Their counter culture is there. And I connected with that. So I also had a bit of a phase where I, I wanted to be around people who are a little bit more comfortable being a little different than what people expected. Yeah, and that's actually I still feel better that way. I when I'm around people that just
15:21
that I actually just happened today, I went to a meeting, just group of people going to networking thing. And a couple of the people that I met were so stereotypical in this kind of industry, I guess. And I just cringed, I'm like, Oh, these people are so fake man. Like, just I mean, like, just be authentic, like, just be honest. And they're just so incredibly fake, that it just kind of drives me crazy.
15:51
And you're, you're a big, you're, you're into film, too. And you actually I remember talking, let's talk a little bit about that. Because, like, what were the were their
16:01
connections to your own, like ADHD as it applies to filmmaking, because I'm a big film nerd film fan as well and have dabbled, but not really anything seriously.
16:15
Sure, like filmmaking for me was,
16:20
I have a very personal connection with with film for me growing up as an ADHD er, and, and having a lot of emotional dysregulation and struggles with my teen years, film was a way for and I'll get a little, little a little more heavy here. And film was a way for me to kind of experience my emotions in a way that's a bit more regulated. So instead of feeling like I don't fit in, and a lot of places growing up with film, I could I could safely go into areas of, of difficult emotion or difficult story. And since I'm watching a film, and it's not really happening in front of me, I can I can experience that emotion in a bit of a safer way. So film was a was a bit of a kind of a place where I could I can open up and truly feel all of those intense feelings and intense passions and all that kind of stuff, without without necessarily having people around me judging that or thinking it's too much that's a common thing for ADHD or is is, am I being too much? Or am I not? Am I not being enough? For I'm not paying attention enough? Am I not engaged enough? Or am I engaged too much, and it's too intense for other people. That's a big complication that a lot of at studios can develop. And I was I definitely had that. So film was a way for me to experience emotion and intrigue and story without having to worry about what other people thought of it. And I could deep dive into that. And then when it came to, that's one of the reasons why sci fi is a big thing. For me, I love sci fi, my biggest my favorite genre, because it allowed that interest component to kind of just just flourish and like my mind was just like a constant like, like wheel turning of ideas. And then I get excited, and I could be excited and super passionate, and no one was going to judge me for it.
18:07
And and actually, if you talk to other people who loved sci fi, you could get just as interested in it. And they're like, yeah, it's fantastic. So it was a wonderful kind of way for me to kind of find my own tribe, so to speak, or my own my own my own group of people. Yeah, for me, so Oh, yeah, sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, well, I gotta say, and then I, I had someone who I was so into film, I was writing scenes doing psychological work at rehab centers. And during breaks, I would sit there and write scenes and stuff. And someone told me, why aren't you trying to make any films and I was like, I don't know, I had a lot of lack of confidence back then. And someone said, that's good enough to make something. And then I tried it. And and then it became, it was a bit of a ADHD, wonder where ever I was getting feedback loops everywhere, like I get interested in and I would do it and then I would write a script, and then someone else would give me feedback. And then I would get more interested and then engage. And then I would have to learn all these new skills. I'd have so much novelty, novelty, novelty. And I was like, Oh, this is what art is. It's taking your experience experience and putting it out there and being vulnerable for people to see. And that felt very captivating.
19:17
Over time, I realized it wasn't my career path and psychology was but it was something that allowed me to before I came to it to allow myself to express my emotions on my own terms. And now I could show people my emotions on my own terms. And that's what filmmaking turned into for me. Yeah, it's interesting with with the filmmaking side, like I've done, like, again, I wouldn't consider myself like a filmmaker per se. Although, you know, I like noodling around shooting short videos and but I love like that the whole editing process I always found just riveting, you know, where a lot of you know, in sort of the Zeitgeist these days you hear you know,
20:00
Uh, you hear flow like everybody, you know, you try to get into flow when you're working, you try to get into your flow state and I'm like, Dude, I have ADHD. That's not a problem. If it's something I'm into, right, we're like editing video. It's suddenly like eight hours later you've been sitting in a video booth editing videos and and the time just flies by and so, so yeah, the world the world of film has been something interesting to me. And I was gonna say like, what we like it was sci fi. I was more into like horror movies growing up, and my best friend, as a kid and one of my best friend still today. You know, we went to like Fangoria this weekend of horrors conference in Toronto. And we met like, like, you know, Tom Savini. And like all these like makeup artists and stuff, and it was like, it was like the coolest, the coolest thing but like finding community around you know, Toronto is such a big film city and I used to live practically in a video store called suspect video, I would go there like every day, I'd rent movies. And so they all knew me really well and and they would rent out movie theaters to do screenings.
21:12
Sidenote, tangent here, they rented out, they got their hands on Drunken Master to the junk, the Jackie Chan old martial art film, and the party's the best one and the only theater they could find was this porn theater.
21:28
So it which was functioning as an adult theater, but they rented it out for like a day or two. And so there was a lineup we were there for the nine o'clock show and there's a lineup of people waiting to go in. There's a seven o'clock showing to to go in so like I'm sure people driving by are like, Whoa, I must be a great porn.
21:47
But I went the first screening lets out, it's Quentin Tarantino and Nia Sorvino come out of the theater. And we're like, no way. Like, it was just such a cool. Yeah, it's it's a cool, freaky, wonderful world like filmmaking. So
22:01
I agree. Yeah. Art, do you find like a lot of your clients?
22:06
Are more? Do they come from sort of a creative background? What like, what
22:12
are their commonalities there things that you see? Um, yeah, I think there are some, I think it's difficult. Well, there's a there's a, there's a economic struggle here, when it comes to really talking about this is that a lot of artists who might need it don't have the income to afford it.
22:31
So the artists I do have are usually well established artists. They're already working in Los Angeles, they're already screenwriters, they're already they're already editors are already and they're struggling with, with, with, with kind of managing the weight of it all, in their creative endeavor.
22:48
But the unfortunate reality is a lot of the people who are struggling artists who maybe may have ADHD, and, and don't know what to do with it, they unfortunately may not have the resources to be able to afford the treatment that might be helpful for them. So because of that the people that come to my doorstep, so to speak, end up being the more established artists and people who have the resources and funds to get something like that. And that's and I try to give as much support as I can to people who like I have a sliding scale to help that out. But I do know that there's a simple reality that often, if you're the typical starving artist, often if you're starving, you don't have you don't like this is the unfortunate reality of some bigger systems in our society that if you're, if you're struggling and starving, and you might have missile health struggles, the starving part 10 will always take more priority and mental health actual help and aid costs, it becomes a bit of a catch. 22 is like you need the mental health aid and help but you don't have the money for it. And to get the money, you need to do more work. But to do more work, you're struggling with mental health issues, and then it becomes just a bit of a struggle. So I've talked to a lot of in support groups that I've facilitated and workshops, which are more accommodating to lower income individuals, I hear a lot of that it's like, I don't know how to get my head out of water to be able to, to do the work, I need to be able to make something out of this kind of stuff. So that ends up being a lot more of a struggle that I hear the knot. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And it's, you know, I've, I've spoken to a number of other, you know, ADHD, coaches, and therapists and so on, and just researching things on myself and learning about how, yeah, I mean, as you mentioned earlier about addiction, but like, in some cases, it's easier to get your hands on a highly addictive, dangerous stimulant than it is to get your hands on an actual prescription of something safe that's been diagnosed and prescribed. And, and it's cheap.
25:00
Breathing in some cases, I suppose for people to get their hands on the wrong stuff. And that's, you know,
25:07
I had a guest on. I don't know if we've aired that episode yet, but he was talking, I remember he was speaking about the prison population and how, how it's just so clear how many people in that are incarcerated, have ADHD, and it was like that. You can't completely blame ADHD necessarily, but at the same time,
25:30
you know, it's a, it can be a wonderful thing, but you can make a lot of wrong decisions, bad decisions because of the, you know, not being treated. And so, yeah.
25:43
And you weren't a a suicide prevention hotline for four years. Definitely. Are were there correlations things that you found there?
25:56
Yeah, definitely. It's a, I was gonna, as you're talking about the prison populations, I had a thought in my head. I don't have any data around this. But I'll top my head. But I would say the Venn diagram of people in prison and, and mental health, mental health struggles, I would say that's almost two overlapping circles.
26:17
The people who are in prison are often suffering from anxiety and depression and struggles, even with even if they're out for their own crimes that they committed, they might be dealing with, with with a lot of mental health struggles with that kind of stuff. So that's a, that's an underpopulated under service. Mental health, in general, I would say is an under prioritize thing, when in society like government and policy wise, we can easily see that how a lot of mental health struggles people have, they will put them into anonymous programs, and that are free for the community. But if you actually get into a crime, you get put into a much more kind of a prison situation where you're supposed to have read about rehabilitation, but if it's just mental health, they don't really have places for you to go that are cost effective. So they give you to anonymous programs where even to own that, that dysfunction you might have or struggle you might have, you have to do it in a way that's anonymous. So you can't even truly there's not even even an accepting community within society to kind of really embrace that side of yourself. If you commit a crime, and you might have mental health struggles, the mental health part of it is often neglected and shamed or not treated as if it's like, just a common problem that happens. So I have my own kind of agendas around that. So we don't have to go down that route if you don't want to, but no, I mean, I'm open to Yeah, what what are your thoughts on that?
27:42
Well, it's uh, often, mental health is something that people this is my own kind of observation in society, is that people often look at mental health issues as something that you can do something about yourself.
27:59
And, and if you're not doing something about it yourself, then it's your fault. It's you have to pick up your own your own self up and heal your depression, heal your anxiety, and it's your fault. There's some great book The Power of Habit. And in the back of that book, he talks about two different people who, who struggle with with routine habits. One person has a gambling addiction and gambled away their house. And the other person
28:28
was has a sleepwalking problem and ended up killing their wife in one of their sleepwalking things because they thought someone was was they thought they were their wife was an intruder. And then they killed it. Both people
28:42
said that they were they were blacked out at the time, the person who Gamble's was said that they walked into casinos, and they were a blackout. They literally do not remember two days later, they come out of that. And their whole house has been sold to put on the on the casino thing and they've lost their house in their home. And they have no idea what happened. The other person blacked out because they were unconscious and asleep and killed it away without even knowing it woke up. And we're like what the hell happened? I don't even know what happened. Both people went went to trial. The jury sees the person who's asleep and was like, holy, holy man. Oh, man. I wonder if that happened to me. I could I could see that. What would I don't I don't know what would happen if I woke up. And I had done all those things. So I can understand why why that why that person isn't guilty because if that happened to me, that would be a struggle. And that person actually was not found guilty of murdering his wife, murdering his wife, flipping to the other person. The casinos took that woman to jail for paying debts, not paying debts. And she was found guilty by the jury of her peers. And the author. Charles Duhigg. In that book says, well, the culture believes when addiction that's something that you should be able to do something about they could they put themselves in her shoes
30:00
Isn't there like, well, I can get into casinos without blacking out. So why can't she enter casinos without blacking out. And this is where the real issue kind of happens is when it comes to actual mental health conditions. Society, whenever you put a jury of your peers in front of you, there isn't necessarily a thinking like, oh, okay, I can see why why someone could lose control in that situation and not have the agency to, to handle it. Instead, it's, Hey, I've also been drunk. I've gambled before, and I was able to get out of it. So why couldn't this person, clearly they don't have enough effort, energy, or motivation or personality to get out of that. And that makes it very difficult for the person with mental health condition to actually accept and embrace the fact that they're struggling in society, when no one around them embraces that struggle. Does that make sense? Yeah, so it's almost, it's partly a lack of, I guess, in part, it's a lack of empathy. But it's also a lack of it's also kind of ignorance of just not even being aware
31:06
of these of these symptoms, or these things, right. Like, if you don't know what it's like, yeah. Sorry, way more severe. No, that's a verity of it. And people will know what it's like to want a drink of alcohol. They might not know what it's like to
31:23
lose consciousness and have blackout three day benders where you have no idea what happened. They might know what it's like to blackout in college. And, and it's like, oh, I blacked out it. That's, that's, that's unfortunate. And I got drunk and threw up on people and everyone's angry at me. They don't know what it's like to do that every single week, and to not be able to stop and have your whole life fall apart. That's they, they saw their own struggles. And they're like, Well, I did something about it. I grew out of it. Well, then why couldn't that person? Well, that person had different circumstances, they had different there had different stressors in their life and and had you had those stressors made? Maybe you wouldn't have pulled out, but they don't have those stressors. So it's harder, it's a little harder to put yourself in those shoes, because there are lower levels have that situation happening, that people can put themselves in those shoes, and they're like, Why didn't go that far? I have the I had the willpower to do that. Why didn't that person have the willpower to do that. And that's where the, the limit of empathy kind of can be seen at that point where it's like, okay, I can put myself in their shoes, but I can only extrapolate how far I would go in that situation. Instead of seeing that situation and seeing the context in their lives, and how, Oh, if this was worse, maybe I would have also been worse at the same time. What are some of the
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like some of the changes that you would like to see in like, if you you know, the, let's say, the genie in the bottle gave you three wishes, Matteo, like what would you? What would you like to see granted, as it pertains to this stuff?
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Well, I, as it pertains to this stuff, I would say on a more of a systemic level. i This is a big thing. Education is one of my biggest kind of causes. So I'm a big fan of psychoeducation, trying to educate people of what's going on. And right now, we teach people about currently in in the United States, we teach people about emotions, we teach people about management strategies, but we don't necessarily have a systemic way to train people in emotional reactions, instability, it's kind of we give them the information. And then it just kind of we'll figure it out. And I hope you do it. But it's like, well, you need to take deep breaths here, you get told that when you're young and like, take timeouts and do and take content and all that stuff, but you're just kind of expected to do it. And that's kind of hard for a lot of people, when they don't have a system there to do it. So I would advocate change adjusting the education system currently right now, towards something that's a bit more practically useful for emotional management. I say this because emotional management is one of the fastest things if you can bring awareness to that, you can often prevent a lot of cognitive spiraling. A lot of a lot of the other kinds of ruminations and avoidance and other things that happen if you can quickly be aware of the situation as it comes up, and then be able to manage it and use use strategies to to augment your reality, faster and faster and faster. So the faster we can get people doing that the less we have people being angry at each other, the more compassion we have, and the more emotional responsibility we have as a society. So I think that's a big thing. Because for ad steers pulled us into our topic of the day ADHD, ADHD, kids have a lot of big emotions and difficult managing that emotion. So if everyone is more attuned to everyone else's
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emotional capacity and emotional understanding, then we have a lot more compassionate and empathetic environment, when people might be a bit more dysregulated, we can see them as someone who is struggling with something, and instead of a problem in society that they need to be managed in some way, shape or form. Instead, that's as someone who is struggling and we need, they need their support. And with that comes systemic and not just education, but also systemic support on an insurance and financial level. Right now, medical things are covered often, and are covered in medical plans, but therapy and coaching or not. Now I understand why coaching isn't because it's not regulated. I am for the regulation of coaching, specifically mental health coaching and ADHD coaching. But so I understand why insurance companies don't tax go on to offer and connect with coaches. But I think there could be a path to changing that that would be beneficial for everyone involved. So we can we can start truly treating therapy as a bit more of a need. I want to throw dental and vision into this. I've always been very surprised why those end up being extracurricular things, but people need to eat and people need to see. So I've always found that to be strange. But mental health is another thing that seems to be neglected and put off to the side where I think having a systemic support would allow people to feel oh, when I'm feel sad, or I feel depressed, or I feel like I can't handle it. My society and community has already a path for me to seek help without judgment and without going bankrupt just to try to help myself.
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Yeah, and you touched on dental there too. And they're, you know, there's direct or at least believe direct correlations between dental health and mind health. And even, you know, the possibility. And again, not I'm not a medical professional here.
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But I do have a deep
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interest in dementia and Alzheimer's and how poor dental health can can certainly contribute to that
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is something that I've been reading quite a lot about lately.
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Talk to me a little bit about mindfulness. I think meditation and mindfulness are two things that often get quite misunderstood. I've had a daily meditation practice for really since the pandemic, but I dabbled before that, but I got more serious about it during that time.
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And in my own sort of novice experiences here, I kind of find that like mindfulness, in a sense comes as a result of meditating. And a lot of people that I speak to who have attempted to meditate, you know, friends, and so on, they just they misunderstand, like, I can't focus on my breath, I think about something and that doesn't work for me. So talk a little bit about that.
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Oh, I could this is one of the branches of my work is mindfulness and meditation. So this is a topic I love. And I could talk about demystifying meditation is one of my passions. Okay, yeah. Because I think it's kind of easy once you start once you get into it to demystify. So let's talk about what is the act of meditation, it is, let's understand, I think it's helpful to understand that first, and that is
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to have a focal point, and to try to stay with that focal point. And when we get distracted from that focal point, we bring our attention back to that focal point.
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So that's from my understanding, meditation, that's kind of a broad stroke kind of definition there. Some people will use their breath as that focal point, some people will use their body scanning as a focal point. Some people will use body sensations as a focal point, some people will use a flame or a light or something in the distance as a focal point that are all the focal point. And as something to focus on. Some people will use like a visualization in their head to focus will focus on that there are all kinds of X, X, focus on x. And while you're focusing on X, your your your brain will naturally distract itself from that. And when that happens, you kind of bring yourself back. And that's the act of practicing meditation. I wonder what it might argue that without the distracting thought, you can't actually practice the that because the act of practicing meditation is returning yourself back to the focal point. And if you don't actually get distracted, then you have nothing to return yourself back to. So we're distraction is kind of not kind of it is built into it. It is part of it. We our brains will naturally get distracted and that's perfectly okay. Especially with very few students. Gonna get distracted.
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So, knowing that we can practice letting go of it, and and then going back to our focal point, and we get a lot of resistances around that we have a lot, a lot of people, a lot of parts of ourselves come up and say, Oh, well, we're doing a bad job here. We're not doing this. We took too long doing that. But honestly, I'd like to demystify it by saying, it doesn't matter if in the span of five minutes of meditating, if you got yourself only back to the breath once you've succeeded, that's it. This as much as that you can, you could spend the whole five minutes lost in a thought. And at the end, when you hear like a gong or something, and you go back to the breath, and you just had that one couple of seconds back in the breath. You still got back to it, though. Yeah, deal, did it? Yeah, one revelation I had. I was from a guided meditation. But it was that as you get the thought, let it play out like a movie, like instead of like letting it stop letting it play out. And so like, for example, I might think like, Oh, I've got to go pick up my wife from work today in the car. And so I think that and so I play it out in my head, like me getting in my car, turning it on driving to pick her up, she smiles, I smile, kiss her, whatever she gets in the car, we drive home.
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Oh, that's it. So it's over. So now I can get back. Like, just let it play out. And by learning to do this and giving myself permission to do this, it was like, oh, yeah, definitely. And that whole thought was like, that whole little scene was just seconds. Like, it wasn't even a minute. It was it's like it's played out. Oh, okay. Well, let's say that that that's not that hard. It's not that bad at all. Yeah. Have you heard of noting? No. Noting is a meditation technique that kind of does what you're talking about. In a real like, efficient way. It's a process of like, like, what you're talking about there has some foundational kind of same similarities as noting, in the sense that when something comes up, when we try to avoid it, it becomes often louder.
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So it's like don't avoid it. So when you're talking about giving that some attention, so then it naturally just kind of exhaust itself. And then you can kind of go back to the thought. So noting is a way to kind of cut that thinking kind of down a bit. So you note while you're meditating, and you have a distraction come up. Like what is that distraction, like I'm thinking about argument, I have my partner, okay, I'm not in a noting situation could be once you catch yourself lost in that train of thought, you can say, Oh, I'm thinking about that fight with my partner, let's return to the breath. That noting gives that thought, the validation that it does exist, it is there, it is something, but it's just something and we can let go of it. And let it be. Because something that can happen, if we just let it kind of run out is sometimes it can stir other thoughts and other feelings and other emotions. And now that one thought piggybacks into
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12 to 15 minutes of thoughts. And and then it's hard to get out of that. So noting can be a way to kind of like, once we realize that we're there, we can say, oh, okay, I'm tall, I'm thinking about this. Let's go back to the breath. So then we at least address the fact that it happened. And later on when we're done with it, we can look back, okay, I thought about this, this and this, do we need to address any of those things, but we don't allow it to kind of consume or we put some boundaries around it to kind of make sure it doesn't become the breadth of our entire meditation practice. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. What are some other thoughts and tips around around meditation and mindfulness? Sure, with with ADHD, there's a lot of them that I would say are couldn't be effective other places, but environment? What kind of are you trying to meditate while sitting on a bench that's across a busy street. Not the easiest way of doing that? Are you trying to meditate while you are at a baseball game, but not going to be the easiest thing to do?
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Because meditation is inherently a low dopamine activity. So our brains may struggle with it. So being able to have one coming from a high dopamine activity, it's our brains are going to struggle going into a low dopamine activity. So often, it can be helpful for going to meditate having that be one of the first things we do in the day, because we'd haven't been inundated with a bunch of other dopamine to kind of want to maintain and chase and risk getting into hyperfocus. Like we sometimes we can with our phones. So if we can do a meditation first in the morning, before we get into that, then we can kind of all right we can kind of then let's say we might work out afterwards. Now we're our dopamine levels are kind of building as the morning goes instead of picking up our phones early in the morning and then getting inundated with like Instagram or Reddit and then having tons of dopamine and then expecting ourselves to transition into a low dopamine act when our brains like no, I'm
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I want to stay here at this high dopamine thing. So knowing when you're going to be meditating and what's happening before it will inform you as to what kind of what mental state you're going to be in, to be able to sit down and focus on your breath, or whatever your focus point is, because that's actually quite a low amount of dopamine just sitting there focusing on your breath. This is so not to interrupt, sorry, this is just No, no, this point is really good. And I have found that this to work for me just like literally over the last like week or two weeks, where in the morning, now, I've got a kind of a crummy back and I have stretches that I need to do. And I know I need to do and I often neglect and then end up paying for it later. So what I've been doing in the mornings now is I go into my office, and it's still dark in my office, and I put them out on the ground. And I do like a 10 minute meditation, and then I do my stretches. And then I have my coffee, like I reward myself with the coffee after that. So to your point, because exactly to your to what you were saying, I often do a lot of my thinking when I'm walking the dog. And what was where I was failing at this was taking the dog for the walk in the morning, and then coming back to do what I just explained. And so often, I'm so lost in thought that I get right to my computer and start doing the thing that I was thinking about, and then it's like, forget about it. It's not happening today.
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100% that brain wants to perpetuate the dad was before it wants to keep it going. Yeah, great. Great points. Do everything you can. Yeah, definitely. That's a that environmental kind of awareness of like, Am I in the right space to do this? And that's a big thing.
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Starting off with I think when people go into meditation,
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like kind of routines or stuff, they're like, how long should I do it for. And then they hear stuff like, if you go to the pasta, they recommend an hour in the morning, an hour in the evening. That's for days, it's like you're asking me to sit still for two hours a day, I can't sit still for five minutes, let alone two hours. So. So then there's like, there's Transcendental Meditation, which recommends 20 minutes, twice a day. But I say, studies have shown that three minutes or more our benefit can have great benefits for ADHD ears. But I'll go as far as to say that if you can just sit for a minute. That's, it's better than nothing. And if you can try to get into the habit of just doing that for 60 seconds, you can do that on the bus, you can do that in your car before you started. You can do that kind of in transition points. Like before you begin something you got in your car and you're about to go somewhere. Right? When you get in the car, do a six, one minute just kind of breathing exercise, or when you arrive at a place before you leave the car, do a one minute breathing exercise, run metta meditation kind of thing, these little tiny moments where we can attach systemic routines to can be very helpful. Where we're having it's only a minute, how often can we fit a minute into our day? know if we can do a minute Are we able to do five minutes once we can get used to doing a minute and get used to sitting there with low dopamine and get used to challenging those those struggling emotions that come up when we're trying to sit there quietly and in solemnly we get used to that, okay, let's pressure that up and get used to five and, and then we can start building our actual meditation habit. So I just like with any ADHD stuff, if it's too overwhelming and abstract, break it down and make it easier and more practical. What I like to say is break it down to the smallest hurdle, where it's almost ridiculous to not do it's like, Can I do a minute? Come on? Can I can do a minute Come on. I can I can do it. I can really do a minute. It'd be really ridiculous if I couldn't do a minute, a minute kind of thing. Yeah.
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I love that. It's really great advice. I mean, yeah, people people should definitely give it give it a minute. Give it a go. Tell me a little bit about
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I I've been on the fence about TM Transcendental Meditation. Only because I haven't flipped the bill. I'm buying it. I'm paying for it. But it's something that I've been intrigued by I've I have friends who swear by it and being a film nerd. I love David Lynch and David Lynch's all over to Yeah.
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What are your thoughts? I know my understanding, like you said it's to 20 minute
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meditations per day which does feel like a lot to me a little bit but but also with a mantra and I don't really understand and like in order to get to properly to do TM you have to be assigned a mantra or something. Do you know about this? Yeah. So I got some
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personal and professional gripes with the T and the tenant strengths and
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Mental meditation people, not not people who practice it, but the people who run the organization around it.
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I say that because with most meditation, Buddhist meditation, Hindu meditation, most of those avenues are free.
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Buddha specifically like that it's part of Buddhism to not charge people for meditation, because of it is a gift to the world, so to speak. So when someone takes that and then adds capitalism to it, I am like, Okay, you're kind of this isn't. This doesn't need to be charged, but you require people to do it. And you won't train anyone else outside of that unless they pay you much money. And that's perfectly fine. But I think it can, it further mystifies something that is not that mystical. Like, the actual thing of meditation is a specific act, like I mentioned earlier, whether it be a mantra of a focal point of having a mantra, having a breath having a flame to look at. It's all, it's all the same, just different focal, some things, some people resonate better with using a mantra, some people resonate better with using their breath. Some people resonate better with body scans, there's different results, and you get different things out of each of them, but like to say that it's some thing that must only be done by specific people, I don't know, if I buy all that you can, there are certain avenues right now on the internet that you can find out exactly what happens in a transcendental meditation seminar. And, and I've looked at these things, and they're not, I don't necessarily think the currently what I've understood of it, I don't necessarily think it needs to have such pageantry wrapped around it. I think that it's the pageantry keeps, keeps,
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keeps it more mystical than it needs to be. And also kind of reinforces the capitalistic nature that TM tends to have compared to all other meditation practices, where they don't really care about having money. They're just trying to provide a service. And obviously, you can you can pay for people to teach you meditation. That's not my point. My point is that the they act as if TM is this kind of, like, this golden, golden goose that will give them will give everyone everything and you can only do it if you go to these classes. It doesn't if you do it anywhere outside of that. It's not right. It's not true. And I'm like that I don't necessarily know if I agree with Yeah, sort of a sunk cost fallacy where you pay you pay for it. And because you've paid for it, you're gonna swear by it to everybody, you know, and that word will spread. And it's meditation. So it's probably is helpful, but I don't necessarily know if it needs to have that kind of restrictions around it. Just to be helpful. Okay. Yeah. All right. God bless America.
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I know I our time is just racing by here. And yeah, this is this has been mind a helpful thing on my one last thing on meditation. Absolutely, please, please do. Um, so there's a lot of things
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you can do to help ADHD in general in life. But in my experience as a mental health practitioner, ADHD, mental health coach and counselor,
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like if we understand what inattentiveness really is, and that is, the thing in front of us isn't enough dopamine to engage the brain to turn on and activate, it's all of the things that he's activate. So the brain goes looking for things that can activate it. So you don't like doing the homework assignment. So your brain starts flooding things that would be more interesting. And then you go off and do that. So then it can be engaged and continue going forward. So that is kind of the biology of what's happening in in attentiveness. And that's a pretty, pretty common aspect of ADHD. So inattentiveness and and the combined type. Even hyperactive people struggle with an intention that sometimes.
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So, meditation is the only, in my opinion, the only direct act where you are literally combating in attentiveness. Your brain tells you, hey, this is not enough dopamine. go think about this over here. Like go look at the fire truck. Kids in class like, oh, a fire truck crossing the street that's more interesting than this paper in front of me. Go pay attention to that. Meditation in my experience is the only practice that trains the brain, the skill of disengaging from the current thought,
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like, we don't really have a built in method to kind of train that skill. We often just follow the flow of consciousness and follow and keep following. This, the meditation is an actual, like, deliberate skill to train the brain to not follow it all the time. And now you can choose when you're going to
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Follow it not and build that muscle up. And that muscle needs worked out because it's never been worked out. It's constantly Oh, thought goes into my head, I chase it. I another thought, because man, I chase that another thought chase it. Meditation is something that kind of pauses that and says, Oh, I'm thinking this, that's okay, let me disengage from that and focus on what I was supposed to be focusing on, which is kind of, if you look at it from an ADHD kind of thing is kind of getting back on the task of for an ADHD or so that meditations actually strengthening that muscle in a very direct way. And that's one of the reasons why I think at a meditation, so helpful for ADHD is now great point. And the mindfulness side of that comes as a result, is that right? Because you're being in the moment of distraction, exactly. They're more aware of what's leading them to distractions, the more mindfulness they get, the more the more awareness they are of their experience, and able to make more intentional choices with it, the more agency they have, and the more awareness they bring, and the more mindful they'll be going on in the future. Because if they get in the habit of, I'm just getting wound up here, I don't need to worry about this. I'm gonna go go back to what I was doing. And you keep doing that it goes faster and more efficient and easier and easier and easier and faster and faster and faster. And that's the skill. We're kind of building there with meditation. Yeah, makes sense. I mean, I, in that presentation, I mentioned the route down I talked, I talked about, I won't get into the weeds on it, but But you know, a moment when I was on a hike on a walk, and I was feeling really blue, just not good. And and in a moment,
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I started I questioned my thoughts and realize actually what I should be feeling as joy. And I say, like, what I wrote a blog post about it at the time, calling it about perspective. But really, now I've learned it's more about like, or I guess another word for it is reframing. And it's really like, because I was being mindful of the moment and the thoughts, I was able to reframe those thoughts and realize, like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on a second. This is not a sad moment. This is actually a really happy moment. And Delaney Get the hell out of your head here. You know, think about this. And and it it actually did, like, change my mood in that moment. And it was really rewarding. That's incredible. It sounds like gave yourself some some compassion. In that situation. That's incredible. Yeah, I did it. Yeah, it was it was, as I said, yeah, it was really rewarding. This has been awesome chatting with you. How can people get a hold of you? How can they learn more about what you do and get in touch? Yeah, well, anyone can visit my website, just my name, Mateus ashton.com. And they can find out what I do, I also, I'm starting up, I've worked with ad.org. But as of yesterday, actually, I am moving away from them and starting my own support group soon, in January, it's kind of already getting up and going. But the first session will start being in January and and that will be a free place for people to go and get some support. Because like I was talking about earlier about the struggles that people have been able to have access to stuff, I'm I'm a coach, I'm a trained professional, I want to be able to provide more services for that. So in January, I'll be starting a free support group that people can go to. So I really wanna get the word out for that on top of my other services I want, I want to be able to provide help for people who have resources to do a lot of different things. And also people who don't have the resources, but still need support. I want to be able to provide that for that. So I'll be launching that in January. I love that. And I'll be sure to spread the word. And I hope listeners do that too. Yeah, I'm a fan of Sam Harris's work and he's got a great he's actually the person that I don't know personally but I've I've been using his app with with
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the waking up app. But one thing that's really cool about that is it is a paid app. However, he always has the the fine print there. And he talks about it too, on his podcast is that if you can't afford it, just email them and they'll give it to you for free. And I like that approach to things so that you know, yeah, so that it makes it accessible to all. When I was in counseling school, I took him up on that offer and sent him that email and did and did get that app for free for a period of time. Yeah. Good for you. Yeah, I find it I find it very helpful. Well, this has been Yeah, this has been great. Excuse me. Thanks so much. Yeah, I agree. Fantastic. Yeah, thanks.