PODCAST. ADHD Creativity and Connection with Dr. Holly White, Ph.D.
Today on the ADHD Wise Squirrels podcast, Dave speaks with Holly White, Ph.D., who is a cognitive psychologist and freelance consultant specializing in attention deficits, ADHD, creative cognition, neurodiversity, and educational design. Dr. White has written and spoken widely on creativity in adults with ADHD and is the author of several empirical studies on the topic.
Dr. White also collaborates actively with the Basic and Applied Cognition Laboratory at the University of Michigan Ann Arbor. The article that sparked our conversation is The Creativity of ADHD. More insights on a positive side of a “disorder” published in Scientific America.
Unlocking Creativity, Connection, and the Power of an ADHD Mind
The Creative Edge of ADHD
Dr. White’s research highlights how individuals with ADHD often struggle with traditional structures but thrive in creative environments. The ADHD brain is wired for exploration, making it more likely to generate unique ideas by ignoring conventional constraints. While others may struggle with design fixation—getting stuck on existing concepts—ADHD minds are naturally inclined to think beyond what has been done before. This ability to view problems from unconventional angles is a powerful asset in fields that value innovation, from engineering to the arts.
However, creativity alone is not enough. Many with ADHD enjoy the process of brainstorming but struggle with execution. Dr. White emphasizes that understanding personal strengths and weaknesses is key to success. Those who excel at generating ideas often benefit from collaborating with individuals who thrive on organization and follow-through. This balance allows creative thinkers to see their ideas come to life rather than remain unfinished projects.
The Power of Community and Collaboration
One of the key themes of the discussion is the importance of finding the right people to work with. ADHDers often feel isolated in environments that prioritize structure over spontaneity. However, by forming the right connections, they can create opportunities for meaningful collaboration. Dave and White discuss the idea of a matchmaking system or networking platform designed to pair neurodivergent thinkers with structured, action-oriented partners.
They also address the broader issue of loneliness, particularly among neurodivergent individuals who may struggle to find like-minded peers. Building a strong support network—whether through in-person meetups, online communities, or professional collaborations—can provide both creative inspiration and the practical guidance needed to bring ideas to fruition.
Imposter Syndrome and Self-Doubt
Even the most successful creative minds face moments of doubt. Wise Squirrels are particularly prone to imposter syndrome, questioning whether their unique way of thinking is valid or valuable. Dr. White notes that this is partly because their ideas often challenge conventional wisdom. While society frequently calls for innovation, new ideas can be met with resistance, leaving many creative individuals questioning their instincts.
The key, she argues, is to stay true to one’s voice. People with ADHD often have a natural ability to see connections others miss, but if they doubt themselves, they risk losing the confidence needed to bring those ideas forward. By recognizing the difference between constructive feedback and unnecessary self-doubt, individuals can push through hesitation and continue creating.
The Costs and Benefits of Hyperfocus
Another defining characteristic of ADHD is hyperfocus, the ability to become deeply immersed in a task for extended periods. While this can be an advantage in creative and technical work, it can also be a double-edged sword. Hyperfocus can lead to neglecting other responsibilities, losing track of time, or becoming overly invested in a single project at the expense of broader goals.
Dr. White explains that managing hyperfocus requires self-awareness and external tools. Setting alarms, using time blocks, and building in structured breaks can help harness the benefits of deep concentration without allowing it to take over daily life.
The Role of AI and the Future of Creativity
The discussion also touches on artificial intelligence and its impact on creative work. As AI tools become more advanced, they offer potential benefits for ADHDers, such as helping structure ideas, organize thoughts, and provide external reminders. However, there is also concern that AI-generated content could stifle originality if used as a substitute for human creativity rather than as a tool for enhancement.
Dr. White and Dave explore the balance between leveraging technology for support and ensuring that it does not diminish the unique perspectives that ADHD minds bring to the table.
Moving Forward…
The conversation concludes with a discussion of the future of ADHD advocacy, networking, and professional collaboration. Both White and Dave agree that neurodiversity in the workplace should be about more than just hiring practices—it requires an environment where different ways of thinking are not only accommodated but actively valued.
By fostering a culture that recognizes both the advantages and challenges of ADHD, individuals and organizations can create opportunities that allow creative thinkers to thrive. The key takeaway from this episode is that ADHD is neither purely an obstacle nor a superpower. Instead, it is a unique way of thinking that, when properly understood and supported, can lead to remarkable innovation and success.
For more insights, listen to the full episode of ADHD Wise Squirrels with Dave Delaney and Dr. Holly White and please consider supporting us on Substack or Patreon.
-
I am Holly White. I am a cognitive psychologist by training. And at present, I'm independent consultant researcher and author working on on a new book, as well as continuing to publish articles about my research and
at these days, primarily my research is in the area of creativity and it's overlap with ADHD or ADD or whatever we want to go with now for terminology. All the same beast essentially. And I think I'm really trying to do a bit more to connect with people both outside of academia and just all over the place because I think in the past so much important information has become very isolated in one context or another. And people need to kind of say
start talking and that's where you see all these great bits of overlap. As you said, you noticed an article I published in scientific American and that's where I received the most feedback, which is is wonderful, but it surprised me in that when you trained in academia, you really told you've got to publish in these, you know, in your peer reviewed journals and that's really the push and the impetus and it's great. You do that.
But then sometimes your things stay really isolated in that community and the message doesn't get out there. So when I had an opportunity to discuss some of my work and not just one of those sort of reprint blips, but actually to do a short article for scientific American it got out there to a broader audience. And that's when I started hearing from people and I realized how much this whole notion of anything from ADHD in the adult population to having some kind of creative energy.
And that's when you're at your age that really resonated with people and I started hearing much more from the community there.
Yeah, and it's great. I mean, so you did the, let's talk about that study from 2019. Yeah, and you were with the University of Michigan and Arbor, is that right?
Yes, yes, and I continue to collaborate. We have a collaborative relationship. I'm not actually physically at the university anymore now Massachusetts, but we continue to do some some work, but that's where we had done that study.
Yes, that's great. Yeah. So let's let's talk about that.
That particular study was one of the one of the latest in a series of studies that had done. I started this started the publications in this area in 2005 with my dissertation work.
So I had been looking for a while at creativity and creative advantages associated with ADHD in using a more theoretical perspective, really trying to kind of take a science based approach where I was using the same sorts of tools and measures that people were using to identify classic impairments and using those applying those to the same types of thinking processes, but how they lend themselves to
more positive things. You know, I essentially were stopped talking about the same brain mechanisms, but it's a context dependent thing where in some activities, you see a negative consequence from having maybe the distractibility, but in other places, that can actually be an advantage.
So I started early on with looking at some of these different processes. And so in the 2019 article, this was one of the later things that had done, but I was looking at just a couple more sort of, I guess, applications of this particular ADHD mindset.
So I was very interested in this case and the same things that I guess you'd say normally would shield the ADHD brain from distraction, which are obviously not not not in place, right, because there is a whole lot of traffic coming in and out.
And if you put that sort of brain in the context of anything that requires you to stay focused, you're going to notice those impairments or a classroom, that sort of thing.
But in the world of creativity, that distractibility can be an asset in a number of different ways in the research that we were just speaking of what we're talking about is when you are not, I guess, overly limited by a specific context, you're supposed to pay attention to right at that moment.
For example, the influence of prior knowledge or examples, then you're able to think outside of that. So really I focused in that study on having, I guess, an edge of not being constrained by what has already been created or invented.
So in a way, you're almost distracted from the thing that normally limits other people. So I guess kind of going back to this notion of design fixation, something they talk about quite a bit in engineering and art, this idea that it's hard to imagine outside of what already exists.
You know, we tend to think, you know, if someone says create a new such and such, we mentally pull up our image of what is there now and we sort of create around that.
But the ADHD brain is even in doing that, even in creating around an example, it's going to be distracted from that example and distracted from their own internal assumptions and constraints.
And that actually creates a lot of freedom in the creative process. And so, you know, other people might be sort of following the rules, so to speak.
And yet that is, that's the very thing that's going to keep you kind of constrained into a particular example or template.
And I think in the article two, I did talk about a couple different processes that are unique to the ADHD brain.
And one thing that as it turns out, it's difficult to talk about any any particular creative edge and ADHD without talking about a whole lot of different things that come into it.
So it's really not one of those situations where we could isolate one type of creativity to one part of, you know, the ADHD characteristics or brain settings.
It's actually a whole lot of things. So even with the distractability, but I will say that if you were to take a lot of different, say, creative tendencies or things that come up in the creative mind or process.
And you had that within a space, then you have on the other hand, all of those different traits and characteristics that make up a person's mind who has ADHD.
Those two spaces or circles would overlap and in the middle would be that creative generation space.
So it's not that everything about ADHD is going to lend itself to being creative, you know, like my, I would say my tendency to stub my toe may be more often than other people.
That's just not, there's no way I can make that into a good thing, but there's other things, you know, that there's going to be certain create processes or processes that help you to be more creative.
Things like taking an idea and really thinking it through completely elaborating on it or clarifying it.
Some of those things may be more challenging for a person with ADHD or even say implementing or launching something might be more challenging because it tends to be the case that many people with ADHD want to spend their time brainstorming and generating ideas.
And then it's like, that's the fun part. And once that's done, it's okay for someone else to take that idea and run with it, how they go back to coming up with more ideas, which is fine.
I think a lot of different types of minds are required to collectively come up with creative processes and ideas.
But it just seems that by virtue of the way the ADHD mind is put together, there are some areas within the creative space that just absolutely, you know, resonate together.
They're just the same things that cause some of the impairments in some context are an edge in those things that, for example, require us to think outside of, well, I don't want to say the box, it's overused, but it's true really to think outside of what already exists.
To think outside of what we know, to not let those things constrain us, to not really be very limited in our thinking.
And so you could imagine it really is very similar to the idea of the inverse of the process you need to sit still and pay attention in school, which is, of course, where this whole notion of a ADHD as a limitation comes up.
And I think a lot of times and maybe people in your audience too will recognize this tendency of maybe finding themselves diagnosed or self-diagnosing after their child or someone they know is diagnosed later in life, like, oh, looking back, I guess that's what was going on, you know.
And many times that happens too because they're the person as an adult has, they might think, well, looking back, things might have been a little bit easier and I would have appreciated XYZ had I known.
But then again, I kind of found ways to work with it.
And sometimes that kind of creative spirit and that if you have the right opportunities and things mixed in, you're going to have a tendency to pursue something that is a good fit and really calls to where your gifts are.
So I think in that sense, some people may not have known that they had something that's a, say, a disorder because in a lot of ways it didn't limit them or impair them in that many ways because again, it depends on the context and even with respect to attention.
So I really say what I think that attention is attentional difference more than anything. I think a lot of people who study at HD will say it's more of a difference than a deficit.
There's attention. It may or may not be directed where others want it to be or even where we want it to be at any given time, but it's there.
It's just a very unruly attention. So if you are in a context that allows you to say shift gears and do a lot of different things or have new opportunities or explore or create different things, all of those situations really work well for the HD mind.
So I think there's going to be time. So if you're in the right field, there's many people who will say, no, this is a great, this is a great fit. This is the best if I didn't have my mind wired the way it was, I maybe wouldn't be able to do this as well as I do.
And that said, I know that may sound somewhat overly optimistic and I would say there's you don't get to choose which side of the coin you have there all the time.
You know, you have these advantages at the same time, you can, you know, people might find that they're their own worst enemy or that they procrastinate or they do this that are the other thing that makes it very difficult to actually create or do whatever it is that they're ADHD brain wants to do.
So that's where I say, well, it's fine. I mean, you can certainly recognize those challenges, but it doesn't negate the fact that there are very real, I guess, synergies between the ADHD mind and the creative mind.
It's just a question of recognizing which processes you then need to kind of hone or which strategies you can use to make up for shortcomings and then also pairing together different types of minds.
I think as a society or as a social species, I think humans really are meant to be interconnected and interdependent and it isn't necessarily for anyone person to be able to be really good at everything.
Yeah, certainly we wouldn't expect that.
Right. And so once you recognize where each person's strengths and weaknesses are, then they can kind of be used to complement one another, you know, or just find out what.
So if a person say, I'm an idea generator, but I can't ever follow through rather than just feeling frustrated by that, finding a person who has a lot of energy and really likes to implement things or make a difference or maybe, you know, make do some action and might feel like, well, I don't really have any fresh ideas.
But I, but I can recognize when I see it, do something with it.
You touched on something there. There's a couple of different points that you've made that really stood out to me.
One of them is the need to find the others to collaborate to find community.
You know, I often, I work by myself for the most part and I do my best work when I'm with other people, whether it's standing on stages or delivering workshops or coaching.
But when I'm home alone, just the dog and I oftentimes that's when I'm at my worst. I'm at my best when I'm interacting with other people.
And so sometimes I think like with entrepreneurs, for example, you know, you almost have to, if you're a neurotypical or a neuro diverse entrepreneur, you almost have to find like a neurotypical business partner.
Or you know what I mean? There should be some sort of like speed dating or something to find the others, because I think that's a big part of it.
And it also applies to this loneliness epidemic that is very real and that is affecting our societies and our health and so on.
So what are your thoughts about finding the others? How can we find the others?
Well, first of all, just saying that I think you've given us a great example of just through it right out there, but off the cuff kind of, that's brilliant.
Like, whoa, what if we had kind of like some kind of brain matching type of app where you could find like minded or or complimentary minded people to join in on a project.
Those things, we have those different tools out there in psychology that can kind of get an idea of where people's strengths are in their preferences and that sort of thing.
And they're usually talked about in the context of a HR, a human resources and business applications.
But it really is true that maybe even post COVID and everything, I think there's so many of us at you and myself as well who are kind of working in our own bubble.
We don't want to be about, but we're maybe physically in our own home and are not necessarily going out to a big hub full of activity all the time where there's all these other people.
So how can you keep that energy and that momentum going on? I think for someone with ADHD, there's so much variability that's built in to just about everything associated with ADHD.
It's kind of throw that hyperactive component in there, but I know for myself sometimes I'm very energetic, especially when I'm talking to other people about something I'm interested in.
And other times I'm just blah, and I can't push myself where I have no motivation, depending on what it is I don't want to do.
And so there's a lot of now sometimes to keep the energy and momentum up, especially self motivation and to do those components of the everyday work or even the work you love that are going to be required to facilitate the goal, but they're not necessarily the strong points.
Just to keep up that momentum and energy, I think requires those interpersonal connections and all these other people. And I think it's so important for us to remember that we are not not intended to be isolated and to maybe use use these tools like this opportunity to you know the podcasts and the different communication opportunities and going out there to just remember that that we have all these opportunities to connect with one another that are.
And as I think I've found that I've kind of struck up conversations with more diverse voices and people all over the place through things like podcasts and invites and the internet, you know, and so there's there's that, but I do think sometimes people who have the sort outside the box thinking styles what will gravitate toward one another.
And then we'll get into this big idea storm where we have so many ideas and I'll be sure where to start. And I think I have found that for myself when in the past I worked with a lot of different students and mentor research projects, some of the best, most rewarding collaborations that I would have is between myself and a more linear thinker or a group of us that had people who were kind of at different places with that level of, you know, organization.
And so I think just as I said that the distractibility opens us up to ideas. If you took the other extreme and had somebody that could really see justice straight line and what's exactly in front of them, they would be able to do things in a way that's very careful, very objectively focused one goal at a time.
And so I think it's so important to recognize the value of of that and recognize the value of the sort of opposite of that and other things in between rather than getting caught up in sort of this, this, I guess, narrative of which one is better.
Yeah.
And I want to always avoid that because I think in the past, it's, you know, there's been a lot of negativity about ADHD.
As you know, this is not the way we want to think, but then it became a whole conversation about fixing it.
And I don't think it's up right to think of something as broken, but rather just different because you focus on the differences.
There is that opportunity for complimentary strengths to say, no, a person who's very much thinking in a specific linear way rather than criticize them as being unimaginative.
Right.
I think of them as potentially having the tools to make it happen.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I almost imagine, I almost imagine like a, like started interrupt.
I almost imagine like a, like a dating app, right?
Where like you can swipe the people based on their neurotypes, but also based on their creative interests, their business interests, their professional aspirations from an entrepreneurial sort of point of view or an artistic point of view.
And which the two go hand in hand anyway.
But, but, and then you could drill down by like geography to say, okay, hey, I'm in Nashville and you're in Nashville.
Let's go get a coffee and see what we can dream up.
Awesome.
So we have a, we have got like a hybrid between indeed Tinder research, gay and a classic Facebook.
I love it.
Right.
Well, if we were to just move past a lot, you've got just one of those things where I think if you have a very individualistic society and, you know, culturally United States is one that is a bit more individualistic and we tend to
want to succeed and have that feeling of that personal success and independence and that notion that we should be able to be good at most things and be self sufficient.
And those are all important things, but to a limit because of course we are, we're not lone wolves where we're humans are very social.
They're meant to have a sort of diversified strengths and that are complimentary.
So if we were to say capitalize on this amazing digital technology that we have now and connect with one another.
So rather than the internet becoming a space where you see these clusters of people who are all thinking the same.
You don't want to promote a group thing, but instead you say, I want to sort of cross pollinate ideas with other people and I can recognize it.
You know, I don't know how you feel about this, but for myself, I feel sometimes like I have ideas now and again that maybe could end up being those silly as a scene on TV products or something.
If only I had the energy to bother making them or so, you know, but it's like, wouldn't it be fun to have something like you were saying like this app when you go and say, well, what are your interests?
I mean, I love dogs. I love anything related to animal welfare. I love like that. I'm interested in climate change stuff or whatever.
So those things and then say and maybe take a little quiz or something to talk about that preferences or strengths and imagine having something or even like a meetup type thing where then you get together.
And go somewhere and do a project. And at least in theory, this synergy would be amazing.
Yeah, and I'm actually, yeah, and you've sort of you're you're reminding me of my interest that I've shared sort of not on the show, but I shared offline with some friends and colleagues how I would love to create a wise girls event to have people come out and and have some guest speakers who are ADHD experts.
But then also, you know, have the audience as wise corals mid, you know, mid career people that are recently diagnosed and trying to get a handle of that but finding their community.
And then, you know, sharing their networks to I wrote a book years ago called new business networking. And so I'm all about the power of people, the power of coming together and the power of using both in person and online to build relationships and meet new people.
So yeah, maybe we need to design this app and get it out in the world so people can start connecting. But I love I love that. Now you talk to also about the the fact that wise corals, ADHDers tend to be more creative because of their distractibility from ideas that might knock them off course from that creative endeavor.
If I'm sort of paraphrasing what you said there. And if if I'm on the right path with with that and what you what you mentioned.
Well, first of all, am I on the right path? And then secondly, when self doubt and imposter syndrome kick in which unfortunately seems to be rampant among ADHDers, as well as any high achiever really.
But tell me a little bit about that like how we can navigate when that self doubt kicks in and and starts to starts to scare us from doing the thing or finishing the project.
All right. Well, I would say firstly, yeah, absolutely. You're on the right path as far as that that is one of these gifts, this idea that when you don't have these constraints stopping your creativity, this guy's a limit. But and by the same token, I think there are times when you know the old adage that necessity is is the mother of invention.
I think sometimes if you're forced to sort of figure things out as you go or invent new ways of doing things because the standard way does just doesn't work for you.
Then sometimes just by by virtue of adapting to your environment, you can come creative, you know, come up with different ways to do things.
But I think if your default style of doing things is very original and let me just jump for a second before we talk about that and imposter syndrome to say creativity because there is sometimes some misunderstanding about the idea of that word.
I'm kind of thinking in terms of anything that is innovative and potentially valuable. So it could be in any of the traditional sorts of fine arts or visual arts or culinary arts performing arts, but also improv or music.
But then there's also innovative approaches to doing things or actually the creativity that I would just say is happening in the discussion of this creating an app or an innovation in terms of how we view ideas space or pulling people together.
So anytime you have an approach that's very different or very new and there's a lot of different characteristics of ADHD in addition to the distractibility that contribute to that very original thinking.
But I think that the original thinking can make people feel a bit isolated.
But then there's also times where if a person with ADHD is kind of growing up and coming through the world being told enough that the way they think really kind of needs to be fixed.
And that adds another layer onto the traditional sort of imposter syndrome that I think we all get, especially as we start to gain success or something really cool happens.
Like we see this great logo for our company or our business cards come out or whatever it is that all of a sudden we feel like a little kid or maybe I wait, I don't know am I good enough or am I this or am I that.
And I think to that that that's of course like you said that's going to happen for a lot of people and especially if a person values doing well then they're going to always wonder am I doing well.
But I think sometimes there's in addition to maybe an apostor syndrome is almost this feeling of at times that maybe like a stranger alien type of feeling.
And I add enough I'm just speaking from my from my own experience.
I say something and it's like, am I the only one thinking this maybe you know what was wrong with me.
Okay, or other people like me like, where did that come from?
Okay, I don't know, but yet if I'm with other people who sort of think like I do they're like, yeah, I get it.
It's so funny because I think, okay, so there's this this thing too that when it comes to things that are highly creative or innovative or different.
By definition, they're going to be rare.
I mean, you say that if something is new and has to have that novelty that's a component of the creative definition.
Then it means that it isn't out there yet, at least not in that form.
And the more creative it is, the less it's already out there.
Right.
And so you get into other psychological variables like people's comfort zones.
I mean, people are saying they want innovation, but they don't want too much innovation depending on their comfort zone.
It's like, well, yeah, I want something different.
And then you go and you're like, here, how's this? And it's like, whoa, I didn't really mean that different.
I mean, just tweak this. So I think sometimes teaching people that it's safe to move outside that comfort zone.
And then if you're a person who thinks like that anyway, you think I'm comfortable with my wild crazy ideas.
But then you go to approach them with others and you get a mixed reaction along with this feeling of, am I the person to talk about this?
Am I, do I even know what I'm talking about?
So I think sometimes we tend to doubt ourselves.
But I think maybe as far as a solution to that, I try to remind myself is just, no, this is just, this is how I think.
And I've got to go with it because, you know, if I doubt this, if I doubt the process, that's usually when I mangle it.
If I look back at the things I've done, like, I'll have this idea and I'll think this is my intuition and I really just know.
I'm not maybe sure how it'll turn out, but I, but I want it and I actually want it for the outcome and what it can do.
It's not about the ego. So in the beginning, I have that enthusiasm. I'm not worrying about how I might come across and I'll go with it.
But then once that idea is received or at least in its beginning forms, it's received, depending on how it's received.
If I get, if I get any sort of negative feedback, I sometimes get, I think, pull back a little too much.
Like, oh, okay. And then I kind of withdraw and go back into, okay, maybe, maybe that was a little too much versus thinking, maybe I need to be the ambassador in the new space.
Maybe they weren't ready for something. I just threw something at them they'd never heard of before.
So rather than being put off by their reluctance, let me see that they're going to experience some discomfort because it's a new idea.
So I'm coming from the right space and I think, well, okay, I might not be ready to continue talking to them about this or I can't persuade them, but I could at least hold on to my own conviction by saying, well, let me, let me stay with my own voice.
Let me be true to my, my voice. I think because people that think differently have a different perspective and a different voice, they're very often going to come up against things that maybe
look cleaner and more organized and well put together and they may think, well, is it supposed to look like that?
Right. So I think we might doubt the very things that are the source of genius.
Yeah, it's almost like, yeah, go ahead.
Oh, no, I was just going to say it's almost like we just need to keep pushing forward on ideas.
I think I often use the internet, I do a lot of public speaking and I talk about innovation and things and some of the content that I have.
And I often talk about like Steve Jobs, who's like, you know, a great example of someone who, but he's an example, like he did not invent the MP3 player, nor did he invent a mobile phone.
Right. So like he was the one that he took existing ideas and made them better and made them incredible.
But it's also really important getting back to that point about finding the others is that he also didn't do this stuff alone.
Right. And so appreciate. Yes, he was one that was maybe coming from, he could appreciate that as, as you can see from the, the Apple model, the think different.
He would embrace that way of thinking. So even if he wasn't generating himself, he could recognize the utility.
So I think for us, finding our advocates too. So finding people that can look at something and say, OK, I don't quite understand it and it's really out there.
But I'm going to trust you on this. Let's go for it. I'm going to try to back you and give you some of the guidance and structure that you need to make this happen.
Right. Right. So, you know, because there's other times or if you look back in history that you'll see that so and so maybe propose this idea and he was totally shot down and thrown out as a, you know, this wild renegade idea.
And then later you think, ooh, that was your loss because this person came up with this or this person came up with that.
And then, you know, even when I say undoing little things. So just as there are some people very good about continuing to adapt ideas.
And I think those things are important too because a person who is very innovative, if they're not constrained by existing ideas.
Well, let's say they're not constrained to say by anybody. If you are a designer and you maybe you want to build a bridge and you have this fantastical idea and you bring it to the architects.
And then some of the engineers are thinking, the bridge, the bridge kid, what? Yeah.
It's going to collapse. What are you thinking? So, but if you have the right people in the right space, you can think there's not a superior way to think. And I think we can all accept that. Right. So if we all agree on that there isn't one best way to think. And if we are coming at this not because we want to feed our egos or get rich, but because we genuinely believe in an idea.
Yeah. Then maybe this is overly optimistic, but I think that it's hard to go wrong with that combination in this sense of at least not being thwarted by other people's opinions or by, you know, maybe this just wasn't meant to happen.
Brilliant ideas are not always recognized in their time, but it's also because sometimes there's people aren't ready. But the more you have, I think a network, sort of a supportive network.
The more you have, that makes me think I'm most of a family, but a fairly, fairly functional or at least loving family where you can have some distress in some aspects of that family and some of the other family members will kind of step in and give support and nourish and have your back. And I think that feeling of that. And even maybe we don't always have that on a professional level. Maybe that's important too to say if we were to have our app to say, I have this new idea I was kind of playing with.
I don't I'm almost not sure about it. I'm feeling like I'm questioning myself. Let me throw it out there to my network and even hearing from people that have a very high tolerance for wild crazy ideas. It's going to feel good. It's going to say something like, you know, if the only reason you were really doubting yourself is because of a regular amount of self doubt that we all feel or just because the idea is very is very different.
At least we have that support and we can realize all right. So maybe some of the, you know, the pushback I'm getting is because people aren't maybe quite accustomed to something this different, but not because it's a bad idea and not because I can't execute the idea.
And as the architect of the idea, you certainly have a place in it, as long as you can also feel like there's a time to step back or invite somebody else into that space or maybe allow other people to help you implement that knowing that maybe each person's not going to be recognizing all of the different
constraints in the field. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. So someone else might be able to, but still stay true to the original idea by listening to your guy.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so much of it is about, you know, a lot of what I'm hearing today is a great reminder of of getting out of your comfort zones and meeting people in your community who maybe
have a compliment you, not like compliment you in a sort of bringing something to fruition synergistic kind of way. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
You know, yeah, because I've actually, you're in Yang, right? Right. Exactly. Because I've been on this cake lately where I've been writing about how I wrote a blog post recently on white squirrels about, and I've been trying to get feedback from the community.
And I haven't got a lot yet, but I'm curious what your thoughts are on this. So I have this hypothesis, this theory that the more so there is this phrase, we hear a lot, which is ADHD is a superpower or ADHD is awesome or whatever you want to, but superpower is the one you tend to hear quite a lot.
My theory is this, I was listening to, and this came upon, came into my head when I was listening, I heard a Paris Hilton song, a pretty new song about her ADHD. And it's basically like the course is something to the effect of my superpower is my ADHD or something to that effect.
And with all due respect to Paris Hilton, I feel that, and I'm not really a Paris Hilton fan, I'm not even really a pop music fan, but I digress.
My theory is that the more privilege you have, the more likely you will say your ADHD is a superpower, the more money you have, the more freedom you have, the more social status you have, the more you can say, oh yeah, ADHD is a superpower.
Because I don't have bills to pay because I've got millions of dollars and I don't have, you know, I've got lots of social friends and things, so I don't need to worry about that.
So that I can just go out in the world and do my best work and not have to worry, then hell yeah, it's a superpower.
But to me, I'm like, I still have bills to pay. I've got two kids going to college and I need to figure out how to help pay for their two ishians.
And so to me, it's like where I identify the wonderful attributes of why squirrels, there's still challenges. It's not to say that this isn't a challenge, right?
And so what are your thoughts, first of all, on that?
Yeah.
Well, I would say in the case of someone who is lucky enough to perhaps have, you know, be an ares, then it's, there's a little bit of a confound.
You can't really, it's hard to know a person's not maybe self-made or I shouldn't say that because I don't know what aspects this person has that she is doing on a road.
But if you're talking about someone who claims this is my superpower and here's how this has in the sense that this is my goal and I wanted to do this and whatever it is that I'm endeavoring to do, my ADHD is what absolutely powers it.
And as you said, I think when you're talking about something like a person who has all these other resources, to some extent they have a lot of things that are taking care of those everyday things that are so difficult for a person in the real world with ADHD.
So I think they have the, maybe the luxury of focusing on the superpower part because they can't make too much of a mess using the rest of their not so superpowers if somebody else is there to compensate for them.
Or if they have enough money, it's such a, with the, the ADHD is awesome.
And I think of, you know, like Penn Holderness's book, the title is the ADHD is awesome.
And I love watching his, the different things that he has created with his wife.
And I think wow, his wife is so wonderful.
And all ADD people should have one life in their life.
Yeah, yeah.
And so I'm thinking and the big joke is, you know, he'll show, you know, she'll put a post it note on his forehead or something with a reminder.
And he's free to be as ADD as he wants to be.
And I don't mean that I'm trying to oversimplify it, but if you have a life partner who, you know, your pluses and minuses come together in a way that it's just more than it could ever be, then you don't feel the negative part.
So I think to the extent that we can create our support networks, then we can recognize the good part.
But you know, when you even say to the super power thing is anything that's real world, I think it's going to have pluses and minuses.
And I think where we get into the language of talking about it, framing something in that positive language.
To some extent, I think that it's people's attempt to really compensate for a lot of negativity that's out there.
But they do so at the risk of maybe I think it might almost be offensive to some extent to people who really are a little bit more constrained by the negative aspects.
So I think in a way you could think of, I mean, ADHD is ADHD. And so it can be in some context, it can be an asset.
But in a certain fields, you might excel even more so if you had ADHD than if you didn't all else being equal.
So I think that's where I really am interested because there are some very real things where because life is complex and tasks are complex and the brain is complex, you're rarely if ever going to have a situation where there's a perfectly built brain for one particular task and that's that it's much more complicated.
So with your, there's tradeoffs, you know, and so I would say that to the extent that even, you know, if you look in the book, ADHD is awesome.
How much panel say, well, you know, there's certainly a lot of caveats with that and, you know, most of the time or sometimes and it becomes more of a, okay, throughout my life, this has been a huge challenge.
But I've come to appreciate that it's also what might be behind the things I really value about myself.
So I think when you get to the full, full message there, if we don't short-change it, I think that it doesn't have to become, you know, we can say there are people talking about it using some of the catch phrases.
But if we can see that there's more than that, that's important for the discussion.
I mean, to think about when people would talk about different trends in body image or weight loss that sometimes too sort of combat a lot of the negativity surrounding obesity, the message became big as beautiful.
Well, and I think the idea would just be, you know, don't be too hard on yourself, embrace yourself, but at the same time obesity is unhealthy and you don't want people to overly embrace that because it's not.
Yeah, yeah, there's a middle ground there, right? So I think sometimes you, you hear people creating a message because their intent is to offset the stigma and you think, if enough people say it's good, then maybe people won't think it's bad.
But I think we always run the risk of oversimplifying something and maybe doing it a bit of an injustice because there can be a boomerang effect there too.
Yeah.
We're not, I mean, we all know very well that, I mean, my gosh, I don't know if it's just me or if, but my hypothesis is people with ADHD, like myself have a lot of bruises, I swear, walk into things all the time.
I mean, my head is wherever it is and I may or may not walk into a signpost or trip over route, but I, you know, and I'm not going to say that's a good thing.
I'm lucky that, you know, I haven't fallen, I've fallen up a cliff, but, you know, it is what it is.
So it's like, but and that's obviously not, you know, I say that kind of fun, but there's other things like, for example, I have more data, more research than I know what to do.
I could fill volumes and people and I want that to be out there if I could snap my fingers and make it happen, but I struggle with my own pulling in a million directions or taking on so many things.
And I think with the ADHD mind, sometimes we're like a computer that has so many open windows that it freezes.
Okay, I've decided to open 100 applications and now I can't think.
Right.
And I think our brains do that and all of a sudden it's hard because it's like on one hand, we know we have something to offer and something to say.
But if we open our mouths and it comes out all jumbled and garbled and we get lost, it's really easy to think what the hell was I thinking.
Yeah.
I guess you can believe that I'm sorry.
Oh, no, no.
And then we can go hide again in our isolation.
I think that maybe it's so important for people to find that middle ground.
So, for example, I think we had this shift toward people making accommodation, say in school context and such, making accommodations for people with ADHD and giving additional time and all of these things that that were also very controversial.
And I like to think of rather than trying to say, I mean, in a way, I think maybe it's important to consider changing the entire approach and system and not just making changes for one person, which implies there's one best thing way to think.
And if you don't think that way, let's change around you.
But still sort of, you know, instead of just saying, gosh, the brain is, is amazingly unique.
And even if 80% of the people tend to think one way and so it's easier to say, shape a curriculum around that way of thinking.
And then if you don't think that way, we'll, we'll make special exceptions so you can do your own thing.
Yeah, yeah.
But still the implication is that's not really a good way to do it.
And instead, just say, you know, what I'd say to kids is, you know, nobody looks at your elementary school transcript.
I mean, they don't even look at your high school transcript points if you go on to college.
So it's, you know, if you get a C, you get a C, C's not even failing.
I mean, just that whole sort of teaching kids that first of all, you know, let's have some balance.
Let's chill. You know, it's okay.
It's so much better to be able to think for yourself than to say, be able to memorize facts and spit them out in a straight line.
But also, if we teach kids not only to, you know, think for themselves and learn concepts, but to learn about how they learn and learn about how other people learn.
Yeah.
And have them start to learn to act as though they will in the real world in groups and in activities and in self-inspired endeavors and so much is changing so fast that I'm finding a lot of tools in the digital age are really starting to even the playing field too.
In such a way that when we can use a people who don't have that imaginative type of mindset can use certain tools to help inspire imagination and people that have very scattered minds can use some of these tools to kind of streamline their thoughts.
I've had success using like AI like chat GPT and things.
But I've also savvy enough to know that and I believe the line is whoever invented the ship invented the shipwreck and with AI obviously with not a lot of time left to talk about it.
Obviously that is a big can of worms for, you know, what the future looks like and talking about, you know, these ideas and creativity of, you know, like Austin, do you know Austin Cleon, he's got a book called Steel like an artist.
It's a great book, but you know, and his idea is that basically like everything is stolen like and not not advocating for stealing things verbatim or specifically, but what I'm saying is that, you know, rock and roll didn't be rock and roll without blues.
So like things things change and pivot and evolve and we take what exists already and when you, you know, I've done a fair amount of work in technology companies.
And so so often now with startups that you always phrase things like, well, you know, Airbnb, it's like air and Uber. Well, it's like the Airbnb of X or the Uber of Y so that people understand what it is.
And so it's taking existing ideas and then making them better improving upon them like like Steve Jobs. Of course, we are in a time now where we have no idea.
We can't even fathom what is coming in the future from AI, which I think is exciting and horrific.
Actually, I have kind of my hybrid science and science fiction ideas on that, but I'm looking at a couple different.
I guess you come sort of speculative type fiction books on this, but it's a whole new, it's a whole new frontier and a lot, a lot of levels.
So I think that one thing that without getting into a whole discussion that could be agreed on is that we have maybe every generation says this.
I don't know, but it feels like there have been so many advances, so many changes in human, you know, living in structure and society with, I mean, in our life,
internet, even, you know, these kids now that have never known a time before it when you had to go to books and the library to do a paper.
So everything is changing very, very quickly and almost exponentially. And so if one of the things basics that we know from human evolution is that when the environment changes, that's when differences become potentially advantageous or, you know,
deleterious, it could be either way. And so if you, if you can adapt, if you can change, if you can move with the times and be flexible, you're in a power position.
And one of the good things about being able to think differently or be flexible about that is, you know, that you can adapt with these different ways of thinking.
But I think probably in the interest of time, even to go back to this idea of, so, so what are we talking about? I think that ADHD and non ADHD brains are going to certainly be more alike than different in the sense that we have our human brain.
And we have a lot of our basic processes. And even with creativity, they'll say, there's nothing new on earth. I mean, to some extent, you know, we don't create in a vacuum.
And as you said, each thing is going to be an extension or hybridization of other things that have come before it.
And so when we talk about differences, we're just talking about relative differences of how much one person could take, you know, item X and make it incrementally slightly different versus much, much, much different.
And yet, comparing those to one another, there's still just different versions of the same inspiring source.
It's just a little bit of a difference there in terms of how you're thinking. So I would say that it wouldn't be the case to say that ADHD is either going to be, you know, the, the saviors of the world or the way to think or is even necessarily, if it is a superpower, it's going to be in context.
It's super power sometimes, depending on what you're doing. And it can be the exact opposite in other times.
And I think it's just important to certainly to recognize that. So it's not to say to somebody, it's great and to really undermine their experience when they're struggling.
Again, when you first mentioned it, it made me think of children, a person say that has has four or five kids who then has, let's say they also have a supportive extended family and lots of resources and they're very well off.
And they say, the children are the joy of my life. I can't imagine anything more wonderful. And now imagine a single mother who's in, you know, in poverty and has the same thing and she loves her children too.
But my God, you know, her, her, it's not a wonderful fabulous thing. It's hard work and it's difficult. So I would say, well, which, which one's right?
And they could see it's all about you have elements that change their look, depending on their context, but in a way that's understandable and meaningful so that we could say, well, maybe there are joyful things about children.
I mean, certainly they're not, you know, just terrible, terrible things that happen to people, but they're certainly difficult.
Yeah. And there's some things that make them more difficult. But as we recognize some of those, those same things that create advantages, you know, even if we don't have the ability to say, well, we don't have any disadvantages with ADHD and you say, yes, most, if you have ADHD, you do.
So let's not pretend you don't, but they affect people to different extents. And it's not even sometimes it's a question of what else you have going on in your mind and not just maybe what you have for resources.
But if you also have say, you know, a learning disability or a developmental impairment or extreme anxiety or just many of the things that can also come along with, you may have a very different presentation of this.
I think it's important not to take one section as say, this is representative of the entire experience. But likewise, I don't think it would be fair to do the other extreme and say anybody who has these characteristics is doomed because of XYZ.
But just to find some middle ground and maybe for us not to, or if we do use the terms that that, so again, I keep thinking of the, you know, big is beautiful or good to be this or good to be that sometimes those are part of a counter culture.
And they're just to sort of offset that if we see them for them, think, okay, that's obviously an oversimplification. We don't want that to be too much of the take home message.
Right. And so when people say, let's bring neurodiversity into the workforce and recently talked to Deloitte about this and I'm thinking, you sure you want to do that before you just know what you're asking for and be ready.
And I mean that in the sense that don't just expect to bring in superpowers, but bring in minds that think a certain way and be prepared to make it work for everybody.
You've got to have a climate of innovation. You have to have an environment that supports all these different things.
Give people an opportunity to express what they, what they need, what they can give, where they can interconnect and they can thrive.
You don't just sort of bring in, you know, little units of neurodiversity and they're going to spark innovation.
It's just that people are more complex than that. And I think all of it is more complex.
But I think my, my message with it just is that there's more to ADHD than just say a disorder.
It can, it can be disordering, but it isn't necessarily a, I don't see it as a disease in the same way.
You know, I wouldn't say that I see anything good about maybe having a condition like diabetes or cancer.
I mean, there might be some lifestyle things that are, that you do to compensate that make it better.
But by itself, I don't see positive things about that.
And yet with something like ADHD, though there are impairments, there really are some actual advantages in terms of the way that think that are not, that simply don't exist in the non-ADHD mind.
What are some of those advantages?
There's so much, but I would say just about any of the main core symptoms or characteristics of ADHD have a counterpart.
So I mean, let's just say in inhibitory control or like the mental breaks, the things that keep us focused in, I say us, let me just say the things that are intended to keep the mind focused on one topic at a time and keep out interfering information.
That's inhibitory control. It's like the break fluid and it keeps our brain, you know, organized, it keeps it on track.
And it is necessary when the objectives stay on track. But if you would like to diverge from the path and come up with something different, by definition, you got to loosen up the break so you can move off the path and think differently.
Well, ADHD people, we don't have any break fluid, so it's always going off the path. So when that's a good thing, it's a good thing.
When it's a bad thing, it's a bad thing. And, you know, I would say that that's going to be the case for a lot of different things in a fort.
So one thing, for example, is this idea that people can sometimes hyper focus.
And I had colleagues that would study the hyper focus and had really done quite a bit of a seminal work in that area.
And as one who's experienced plenty of not so helpful, hyper focus, they were really so optimistic about it. And there were not ADHD people. And I thought, OK, guys, just so you know, there's also the chance of burning the house down. There's also the chance.
So one thing is I'm like, I know you guys say, OK, you can just hyper focus on something, but just knowing, OK, there are costs like, for example, sometimes I'm so into something.
And then if I'm interrupted, I just lose my train of thought. And if I might get irritated or, you know, and I have to kind of catch myself with that, or I'm so into one thing that I neglect other things, right, or I can't pull myself off of an activity.
So there's any number of costs that go along with that. But yes, I guess I can acknowledge that sometimes you get that gem of time when you're just in the zone.
And I mean, this conversation is an example, I mean, compared to the hour before this, I'm much more engaged at my height right now. And that's a good thing.
Unfortunately, my dog is asleep in her bed because it can tell you if she were not, she would be saying, yeah, that's great. You've been ignoring me for an hour.
So she hasn't been at the door trying to go outside because she probably have what the carpet.
But again, it's like if we can find tools to say, all right, you know, working with it, recognizing what it is and what it isn't as good.
So if I say I could really get into my zone for such and such and I find that tools like alarms and things like that are good.
I've got a little cube that I got on Amazon. You can flip it over to different numbers. And then that gives you that amount of time before the little alarm rings, flip the cube.
But it doesn't, and I'm always flipping it like, give me another like snooze for 10 or flip to 16.
And I think, you know, let me just go wild on this one thing for this amount of time. Maybe it'll be playing with graphics design.
That's one of the things that really I can get very absorbed in or my writing.
And, and then it's like, I have to shift gears or I won't get other things done that I need to get done.
So sometimes I need the external alarm. Again, that's an ADHD feature where just, but while we could become very distracted, sometimes you get locked in to a very narrow focus.
So I tend to think of the issue with ADHD with respect to focus as being a problem with that function that controls the lens of attention.
It's not the attention per se. It's the thing that either narrows it or expands it, like sometimes we're too expanded, too distracted.
Sometimes we're so laser focused. And I would say that in both of those states, there are both good things and bad things that laser focused, you are putting all that attention in and you can come up with such good stuff during that time.
But at the expense of anything else going around you on around you. So I've learned to say, I don't cook when I'm writing.
I can't. I'll sometimes put something on this stove, like boil water, and then I go and do something on my computer intending to put pasta in.
And next thing you know, I smell smoke. I realize I've been sowing to what I'm doing, that that water's boiled away and I'm going to burn the house.
But those are things where with life experience, you realize, this is just how my mind works. I'm not going to beat myself up over it.
And also, what are my priorities? Do I care about exactly when I'm cooking or you know, if that I don't care about that, I'm going to do my work.
And I realize that I might have to take time out just to focus on that one or the thing where I can work my life around it. I can make changes.
That's a great point. That's a really good point too, because you know, I see myself with my hyper focus on ADHD.
My ADHD coach said like, you know more than I do at this point, Dave. Right? Because for the last year, I've been hyper focused on this.
It's my diagnosis with with the podcast, speaking to experts and smart people like yourself. And you know, and reading books and learning so much and in therapy myself.
I've learned so much about ADHD. I don't claim to be a doctor nor do I play one on the internet. But you know, so I'm still learning, but at the same time, I've learned so much about it.
And my challenge is always, okay, so I've got this great podcast. I'm having a lot of fun with it and I'm sharing a lot of stuff and I'm hearing wonderful feedback.
And I've got some people on Patreon who are supporting the show. But like, I also have other bills to pay. And so like, how do I shift my focus away from Y squirrels or how do I shift my focus into like the business side of Y squirrels?
Like, do I do a conference or an event or a retreat or do I do do like I'm 18,000 words into my next book on the topic and yet my wheels keep spinning because I talk myself out of it because this what I'm doing here is not a business right now.
It's a hobby and it's taking up so much of my time away from the business. And because I work for myself, it's so and the universe keeps pushing me towards Y squirrels because I really feel like this is important work.
Then if you can afford it, do it for now. And then see where it goes because I am a very similar boat where the things that I spend my heart and soul on right now are actually not not paying the bills.
I and at the bill pay stuff, I kind of do separately to pay the bills while I'm nurturing the things that I want to go somewhere.
But I know that I'm starting to head towards something that will be something and I hasn't quite taken shape yet. So I think there are times where maybe we just have to remind ourselves to have faith in that.
And then to hear back from people and the very people who are probably getting a lot from what you're doing, you might not even hear from because there are times where people sometimes like, I meant to say something about that.
I definitely was thinking it in my head and I meant to get back to you. But then I think this is a, this is the kind of resource that could be a platform to pull together all these different things.
And there's times where I wonder if maybe sometimes people who are innovative and have new ideas, if we need patrons like artists, like, you know, the starving wise squirrels or the people who we have all these ideas, but it's hard sometimes to do both the implementation of the next day.
And the idea because some of those processes do oppose one another. So the very things that create this brilliance and this energy in the program are also going to detract maybe from the time you could take to monetize it or to do the next step.
So I think to going, I could recognize from just taking a look at this and seeing your panelists in the discussion, the conversation that this is such a great potential resource in whatever direction it takes next.
I think sometimes we, if we could give ourselves a little bit of time and not be too critical of ourselves and to say, let's do what we do so well, which is to question our own assumptions about what we're supposed to be doing or to not say, like, if this is something that isn't, you know, make money yet to, should I really be spending this much time on it.
And I've tried to do it for myself, even say something about rotating blocks. This has been something that's really saved me, I think, from being resentful. I end up resenting five to 10 too much time on one thing I've resent it because it's taking me away from the other thing I really want to do.
And instead going, let me just do rotating blocks where I say, you know, use my little cube time and say, I am dividing this much time. And then sometimes if I say, I'm going to just take this 30 minutes or so to think about this other thing. And then I actually devote that time to that thing that I've been maybe procrastinating on because it isn't, it could just be that we have time.
We're not putting the energy there because it's not the, it's not sort of our default setting, at least for myself, if I say, what's a, what's a straightforward way to apply this and take this to the next step. And it requires details and those different things that are not my calling.
Maybe don't pull out my creative energy. I get a little bit stumped.
So that's where I think if we loop people in once the conversations established and you loop in people who can see it for its potential, but can add their own skill set that it becomes something where other people can kind of pull it along and add that sort of that.
Give it some more direction and that kind of thing, but I think it has to get a, get kind of established and caught on.
So I try to think of something like this as the front end investment of something that is going to support other things that will come out of this.
Yeah, well, let's, you know, I mean, like let's keep in touch. Let this be the first step here toward pulling this together, maybe inspiring other people to use either this or the.
To be coming up. I don't know.
Yeah, I think to identify their synergy, their network and how can we get this? How can we get things done? I imagine there's a lot of people who have amazing skillsets who might be in jobs.
In fact, I know I recognize them. I sometimes I'll see people who are maybe in a customer service or some position where maybe they're, they're just so good at what they're doing. And yet, I get the sense that I would love for them to be.
Um, you know, production counterparters, something because they just got it all together. Right. Yeah, I feel that way. I mean, there was somebody and I don't want to downplay as a, as a job, but they were, you know, I know it was maybe it was temporary or not, but they were working at the window, the drive through window at Taco Bell.
And I remember probably says I go, I used to go through there way more than I should have, but, you know, but this person, I, she would talk to me and that you'd be taking the next order and filling in what she could do like 30 things at a time.
Oh, she was amazing. Yeah, I never did that thing where ask you over the speaker and again, in person, if you want the sauce with that. Yeah, yeah.
It's like she had it all together. And I thought, oh, wow, can you imagine her working with say some of the groups of workshops with the ADHD kids that I work with are doing this. I can imagine her just being like a conductor of an orchestra.
Yeah. And I'm thinking there is a skill set, but it's not like somebody's walking up to her going, gosh, you've got a great set of skills. They're probably more like, thank God you're on, on the schedule tonight.
When you're here, you make up for five other people, but it's sort of like they're just so good. And yet, maybe they're not being quite appreciated for their full skill set, but they're out there.
It's just, we don't always know. I think so many people who are good at their jobs that could thrive and excel at a different job.
And I think that while we've been saying that's true for ADHD for so long, like we're saying, okay, we can get out of the things like these detail oriented jobs that we can struggle through, but not for that.
And then we put ourselves into these creative ventures, you know, like a Y-score also are some of the different things that I'm working on for ADHD outside the box resources and go, we want to do all these things.
But now we're sort of out there and in space floating around and not sure where to anchor our next initiative instead.
You have maybe people who are very organizing thing and they might be thinking, I'm not sure what I'm contributing here.
I'm doing the same thing each day or maybe I'd like to contribute more, but I don't necessarily know where to start.
And I don't want to, I don't know, you know, because again, these are going to be people who work better within a structured maybe a structured design.
They'd like to have that structure and that, and that's where we could benefit from that structure and that organization and that forward momentum.
Yeah.
And somebody to kind of clarify to say, okay, guys, you know, back on course.
Yeah.
No, something I'd found with faculty meetings back in the day is we'd always have someone in the small group who would be our person.
We'd like to kind of listen and kind of direct, but then at some point if we went too far off, he'd say, say, these are great ideas.
Okay, let's get back and let's focus it to this end now.
Yeah.
It's like you gently shaped like a lump of clay until it goes exactly where you wanted to go.
Yeah.
And I think maybe I'm not sure how that would look yet, but I do feel like there are all of these different mindsets.
And I think also that's where we need to go with it, just like any other initiative we're talking about appreciating diversity of any other kind.
Say, ethnicities instead of it being this is better or worse, it's just different and complimentary.
Well, and good things come, you know, I have a presentation idea in the book that I'm working on is called the root down.
And it's about knowing yourself and respecting and accepting yourself and loving yourself and then connecting yourself, finding the others, as I said.
Yes.
So with the root down though, like part of one of the points I make about it is I use a lot of metaphors around the forest and trees and things.
And how, you know, when a what a forest is diverse, it can last longer because it's diverse because there's different species of trees.
And it's the same thing that we need in our lives being surrounded by different people.
So that way they can inspire things. And to your point about food and things like that's your different cultures.
I mean, you know, a great example of that is a restaurant in Toronto that I used to go to all the time.
There's a little hole in the wall and the couple that ran it was Jamaican and Indian.
And they would take Indian food and stuck it stuff it into like Jamaican rotis.
And I was like the best thing ever, right?
So like, yeah, it's the it's the old chocolate and peanut butter thing.
You just got to find where that peanut butter is to bump into them and then and then create something great.
Right.
Are you okay?
You sound like you were dying there.
Are you okay?
Oh, I'm sorry.
I had.
I know you're good.
I just took my inhaler because I'm fine now.
But if I talk for too long, just get dry throat.
No worries.
I have a cold as well.
So I think you're right.
And I think if chocolate and peanut butter don't take so long to fight over which one's better,
it really helps.
Yeah.
So I think I mean, can you imagine if just to extend the analogy to make it silly,
if peanut butter was trying to be chocolate or medicated till it be chocolate or wear a chocolate suit or whatever.
And it's just like did you're not your peanut butter deal with it.
But that's okay.
And also it's okay to be this chocolate bar and if you put these elements together,
it can be more than the sum of its parts, which is the whole point.
Yeah.
Just like separate chords and notes can create a synergy, you know, and a bigger sound.
You have these emergent qualities that come up.
It's just maybe part of it is identifying it and rather than getting too caught up in the end point where some people
just say, okay, well now that we know there's good things about ADHD,
let's claim that it's awesome and stop there.
And I don't I don't think that's a good idea anymore than saying that it's okay to have like my thousand pound life,
but embrace it and not try to change it because it's not healthy.
Right, right, right.
Yeah.
It's just not.
But you can certainly say that there's no need for the extreme stigmatization or no need to
characterize something as excessively negative.
You can find that balance.
And yet I think the conversation should not stop it just saying either stopping it saying well there's good things.
So now you guys go out and find them and we'll all be fine.
It's not that simple.
And it's also one of those things where I also don't want people to then go back to this kind of handling with kid gloves
and sort of fixing these or sort of taking off, you know,
anything that sticks out kind of trimming it so that it all can be uniform and look the same.
Yeah.
I think very much our value is in our differences.
However, by virtue of the fact that there are differences, there's going to be some conflict in opposition,
whether within ourselves or between each other.
And so that's where I think the appreciation for it comes in to realize this is an opportunity for us not to.
And not to be afraid.
I guess if you take away the stigmatization and people can say, all right, here I am.
I have this type of brain.
Sometimes it's obnoxious.
Sometimes I'll interrupt you and cut you off.
But I mean, wow, and I'm happy for you to tell me to shut up.
Just tell me.
And I will.
I'll back off.
I won't be offended.
And also I could appreciate you putting me in a straight line.
And if you need ideas, I'm happy to give them.
No, that kind of thing where you can have that honest discussion.
And each person can kind of feel supported.
Yeah.
No, I love, I absolutely love this.
Holly, this has been amazing.
How can, how can people get a hold of you and learn more about what you do?
Well, I will try to have my, my presence a little bit stronger on, but we'll be coming soon.
I'd say it's called ADHD outside the box.com.
Okay.
It could go there now.
It will tell you that the site is in coming soon or something like that.
But it is.
I promise it is this time.
Yeah.
But I also.
Or I, if anybody wants to shoot an email, I'm happy to follow up to in a ADHD outside the box at Gmail.
Okay.
For, to continue the conversations are that as far as this, I'm still kind of in the process of compounding a lot of these different resources and putting them out there.
And, and similar to practice to develop this outward facing tool that people can use to access different things and to, you know, have different links to the publication, but I'm playing with it.
And so I haven't made it live yet.
Doesn't live out there yet.
So I will be doing that.
Maybe I could give you some email, some things to you too in case you wanted to have a link when this goes a lot posted or so, but.
Yeah, for sure.
For sure.
Yeah.
No, I definitely want to support you and, and promote you and, and get folks to visit your website when it's up and sign up and all that good.
Well, I don't have a link.
It'll have a link to yours as well.
I think there's a, and then also there's, there's a couple of my colleagues that have done the same thing and it's funny the way we reach out and strange ways to each other.
There's not any other feedback or any other overlap other than maybe we stumbled across each other's things or read this or read that reach out.
But we can also make this sort of connection this network.
And I like to do that through different things and not just a standard LinkedIn or something like that.
So when I have my absolutely would want to encourage people to go and to, to visit and communicate on, and, you know, the, the wise scrolls.
And I'm hoping maybe something can arise where there's, whether it be a virtual event to start with and maybe something more where people could just jump on and talk for marathon, I imagine.
Yeah.
No, this has been great.
Holly, thank you so much.
This has been fun.
Oh, absolutely.
