PODCAST. Entrepreneurship, Technology, and ADHD Coaching with Christal Wang.

Feb 12

Written By Dave

Christal Wang is the co-founder and CEO of Shimmer, the #1 ADHD coaching platform for teens and adults after her own diagnosis. Shimmer has since facilitated over 40,000 coaching sessions. Wise Squirrels save 30% on your first month using coupon code WISESQUIRRELS at shimmer.care.

Introduction clips in this episode featured Tommy Tuberville, Robert F. Kennedy Junior, and Dr. Russell Barkley’s “6 Principles for Raising a Child with ADHD.”

The Journey to ADHD Awareness

Chris Wang shared how her diagnosis came later in life, during her time at Berkeley while completing a dual master's program in business and public health. Before entrepreneurship, she thrived in structured environments—school, consulting, and highly regimented programs. However, the transition to starting her own business stripped away these external structures, leading to overwhelm and self-reflection. This pivotal moment led to her ADHD diagnosis, a journey familiar to many of us, Wise Squirrels.

Entrepreneurship, Support Groups, and Shimmer

Chris's first business venture involved running identity-based, CBT-driven support groups during the pandemic. While impactful, the business struggled to transition post-pandemic. Through this experience, she realized the immense value of behavioral support beyond medication. This realization eventually led to the creation of Shimmer, an ADHD coaching platform designed to help individuals build effective strategies for productivity, self-regulation, and overall well-being.

ADHD Coaching vs. Therapy: Understanding the Difference.

One of the key takeaways from our conversation was the distinction between coaching and therapy. While therapy often looks at the past to address emotional healing, ADHD coaching is forward-focused and action-oriented. At Shimmer, coaching integrates life coaching, executive function coaching, and psychoeducation to empower individuals with ADHD to build sustainable habits and systems.

Chris also touched on the complexities of ADHD medication. Growing up in an Asian household, she was initially resistant to Western medicine. Her ADHD diagnosis came with the standard prescription of stimulant medication, but she sought additional behavioral strategies to complement treatment. This holistic approach—combining medication, coaching, and behavioral adjustments.

The Power of Structure and Systems

A major theme in our discussion was the importance of structured support. Whether it's in personal productivity or business, having systems in place prevents decision fatigue and burnout. Chris emphasized using clear planning cycles—yearly, quarterly, and monthly—to ensure that projects align with long-term goals. This structured approach prevents the common ADHD tendency to jump from idea to idea without completing projects.

For solo entrepreneurs, she recommends creating personal accountability structures. Whether through a coach, a mastermind group, or a simple system of revisiting goals, the key is to maintain cycles of planning, reflection, and iteration.

Shimmer’s Vision for the Future

Recently securing a $2.2 million seed round, Shimmer is expanding its offerings to include ADHD coaching for teens and AI-powered tools to enhance coaching experiences. The platform is also moving beyond individual coaching to engage with employers, healthcare providers, and the broader neurodivergent community to create a more inclusive world.

Chris’s philosophy is clear: every neurodivergent individual deserves to reach their full potential, their way. We love this!

Final Thoughts

Our conversation reinforced a crucial message: ADHD is not a deficit but a different way of thinking that, when supported correctly, can lead to incredible success. Whether through coaching, therapy, or community, finding the right support system is essential.

If you're looking for structured support tailored to ADHD brains, Shimmer is an innovative and impactful resource worth exploring, and you can give it a try by using code WISESQUIRRELS to see 30% on your first month at https://www.shimmer.care.

What has helped you the most in managing your ADHD? Let me know in the comments or reach out—I’d love to hear your thoughts! Thanks for listening.

[06:57.160 --> 06:59.040] For all intents and purposes, I grew up in Vancouver.
[06:59.040 --> 07:01.160] I was born in Calgary, which is also in Canada.
[07:01.160 --> 07:05.880] Tell me a little bit about how Shimmer was conceived because I believe it was after
[07:05.920 --> 07:08.320] and correct me where I'm wrong, but you were at Berkeley, right?
[07:08.320 --> 07:10.840] And then you were diagnosed with ADHD.
[07:10.840 --> 07:16.960] So I was at Berkeley doing my MBA, FBH was the business and public health masters,
[07:16.960 --> 07:18.040] dual masters.
[07:18.040 --> 07:25.560] And I actually originally took a leave of absence to start the old, an old business,
[07:25.560 --> 07:27.680] which was support groups at the time.
[07:27.680 --> 07:29.520] It was in the middle of the pandemic.
[07:29.520 --> 07:31.920] And people were very lonely.
[07:31.920 --> 07:33.520] They weren't seeing other folks.
[07:33.520 --> 07:36.640] And so that was kind of my first foray into entrepreneurship.
[07:36.640 --> 07:42.440] But it was actually the entrepreneurship, plus the COVID that kind of got everything spiraling.
[07:42.440 --> 07:46.120] I had previously been very used to very structured environments.
[07:46.120 --> 07:50.920] So whether that was school, then university, I had a very special program that there was
[07:50.920 --> 07:53.480] very, very strict boundaries.
[07:53.480 --> 07:57.200] And then after that, I had a job in management consulting that had very strict structures
[07:57.200 --> 07:58.200] once again.
[07:58.200 --> 08:04.880] And so this kind of business school to entrepreneurship was the first time where I had to not only
[08:04.880 --> 08:06.600] set at first structures for myself.
[08:06.600 --> 08:11.040] But then when I started my business, I had to start setting structures and goals and
[08:11.040 --> 08:13.960] deadlines and everything for other people as well.
[08:13.960 --> 08:18.760] And so it was in that process where I was starting to go on leave from school and I was
[08:18.760 --> 08:22.560] working on the business and the business didn't work out.
[08:22.560 --> 08:28.160] And that was when I was kind of in a self-reflection period as to why I was struggling
[08:28.160 --> 08:33.640] as I was suddenly struggling, why I never noticed any of these things before.
[08:33.640 --> 08:35.840] And it seemed like it was all happening all at once.
[08:35.840 --> 08:40.560] And I think through a lot of kind of reflection, self-awareness, I realized it was that I had
[08:40.560 --> 08:45.560] these structures that were kind of holding me in place for a really long time, and then
[08:45.560 --> 08:46.560] they suddenly disappeared.
[08:46.560 --> 08:53.200] And I think that I've now heard so many same-same but slightly different stories from folks
[08:53.200 --> 08:54.200] in the community.
[08:54.200 --> 09:00.920] Yeah, you hear that a lot about sort of the scaffolding as the kids say, but like that
[09:00.920 --> 09:05.800] scaffolding that goes away once, you know, a kid, and I have one currently in college
[09:05.800 --> 09:08.240] and then a second one about to go next year.
[09:08.240 --> 09:16.000] So, but it's when kids go to college or university or whatever, that the structure they had
[09:16.000 --> 09:21.640] at home with parents kind of keeping on top of them, hopefully as we have, as my parents
[09:21.640 --> 09:22.640] did not.
[09:22.640 --> 09:24.760] But that's a whole other story.
[09:24.760 --> 09:27.800] But having that structure in place, suddenly, you know, you go off and you're kind of on
[09:27.800 --> 09:28.800] your own.
[09:28.800 --> 09:33.800] Now, you were lucky enough to be in a program that was so, you know, diligent on deliverables
[09:33.800 --> 09:38.160] and knowing when things were due and all that, I assume that, you know, having that sort
[09:38.160 --> 09:43.880] of accountability piece I'm sure helped, but yeah, the overwhelm and then learning as you
[09:43.880 --> 09:50.520] discover about ADHD or certainly for myself about RSD and about all these things like rejection
[09:50.520 --> 09:55.560] and sensitive dysphoria and all these other things that kind of come along, not for everybody
[09:55.560 --> 10:02.520] with ADHD, but and maybe some with, you know, to a bigger, greater extent than others.
[10:02.520 --> 10:06.720] Tell me a little bit about the startup that you had started and that didn't, you know,
[10:06.720 --> 10:07.720] work out.
[10:07.720 --> 10:12.320] I know it was around people with social anxiety or something to that effect.
[10:12.320 --> 10:13.320] Yeah, yeah.
[10:13.320 --> 10:14.320] So, they were.
[10:14.320 --> 10:16.920] Which was everyone during the pandemic, probably, if you're right.
[10:17.720 --> 10:24.320] So, they were more or less identity based support groups that were CBT based as well.
[10:24.320 --> 10:30.440] So, it was primarily targeted at folks with anxiety, but we had some folks kind of depression
[10:30.440 --> 10:36.880] and anxiety or just people who were lonely and looking to work on themselves in a group.
[10:36.880 --> 10:39.840] And so, the methodology was cognitive behavioral therapy.
[10:39.840 --> 10:44.200] So, folks would come in for eight weeks, they would be in the same group with folks that
[10:44.200 --> 10:49.320] were in the same life stage and facing similar problems, which was really difficult to find
[10:49.320 --> 10:50.320] during the pandemic.
[10:50.320 --> 10:54.840] Well, just in life, it's still also hard to find and they would essentially be working
[10:54.840 --> 10:59.680] with a licensed peer support facilitator and they would be each week working on something
[10:59.680 --> 11:00.680] new together.
[11:00.680 --> 11:06.160] And yes, it was what they were working on, but the real value and why it was so sad to
[11:06.160 --> 11:07.160] shut it down.
[11:07.160 --> 11:12.000] But the real value was just folks who didn't have any connections in their life or weren't
[11:12.000 --> 11:15.800] able to share about what's actually going on, being able to actually do that.
[11:15.800 --> 11:22.320] So, that was what we were working on before and it, along with the pandemic, thankfully
[11:22.320 --> 11:28.080] slowly opening up, that was when it kind of, the way that we're doing it, being online
[11:28.080 --> 11:31.640] and all that, I think, wasn't a perfect fit to come out of the pandemic.
[11:31.640 --> 11:36.080] But we're very proud of the impact we were able to make during that time.
[11:36.080 --> 11:38.400] Yeah, and you learn a lot, too, right?
[11:38.480 --> 11:44.720] You discover a lot in, you know, failed businesses, you know, I mean, you do, like, so when
[11:44.720 --> 11:50.480] I lived in Ireland, this is back in like 98, dating myself, just a touch.
[11:50.480 --> 11:55.320] I created this forum called Spotted, Spotted Go away.
[11:55.320 --> 11:59.520] I lived in the city, Go away on the West Coast and it's a big college town.
[11:59.520 --> 12:05.800] And I created this website based on the alt weeklies that used to have, like, I spotted
[12:05.880 --> 12:10.520] you at the pub and you were wearing a red hat and you were with blah, blah, blah.
[12:10.520 --> 12:15.320] And it's like for singles, basically, and, and always a big college town on the West Coast
[12:15.320 --> 12:17.320] there. And so I created this website called Spotted.
[12:17.320 --> 12:21.800] And it was basically like a forum where you can, like, create an account, go in and then
[12:21.800 --> 12:26.520] say, I spotted you and, and obviously tons of moderation because people are idiots.
[12:28.440 --> 12:34.120] But the crazy part about that is I'm sort of a prolific creator a lot of the time and I'm
[12:34.120 --> 12:38.600] a nerd. So I love doing stuff online, too, even though I love, I'm extroverted and love
[12:38.600 --> 12:43.640] being with people. A lot of times I create things like, well, I scrolls was sort of an example
[12:43.640 --> 12:48.760] of this where I just get an idea to create something and I create it. And yeah, and it's like,
[12:48.760 --> 12:53.320] I did each day. I love it. Yeah. And so Spotted Go away ended up getting acquired
[12:54.040 --> 12:59.080] years later. And it was such like, it was crazy because I didn't even own a computer back then.
[12:59.080 --> 13:04.600] I had to go to an internet cafe and work on the site. I went in so often that the people
[13:04.600 --> 13:07.880] working there were like, Hey, hey, Dave, come on in. And like, they wouldn't charge me anymore
[13:07.880 --> 13:11.960] because I was like, spending all this money you're using there. So I didn't actually own a
[13:11.960 --> 13:17.480] computer. And then I was like, trying to sell banner ads to like the nightclubs and were,
[13:17.480 --> 13:24.120] you know, for college kids. And like, I could not sell any. I guess I couldn't, it was 98. So
[13:24.120 --> 13:28.680] I was like, I told my friend about this who's a new entrepreneur. And he was like, you created
[13:28.680 --> 13:34.200] a social network that was acquired. And I was like, well, we thought about it that way. But
[13:34.200 --> 13:38.600] you put it that way. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, oh, that's kind of cool. So yeah, I guess you do learn
[13:38.600 --> 13:42.520] these lessons. And I think coming out of the pandemic, I think a lot of people probably were
[13:42.520 --> 13:48.520] looking for in person again, albeit maybe a little skittish. Yeah, definitely. And I mean,
[13:48.520 --> 13:55.000] yeah, I think the quote is like something like failure is just lessons in disguise. And I really
[13:55.000 --> 14:00.440] love that. But I think, yeah, the other point you brought up, I think is interesting is that people
[14:00.440 --> 14:05.240] with ADHD, well, not just people with ADHD, but especially people with ADHD will generally just
[14:05.240 --> 14:10.040] get involved with something and just run with it just because we're having fun or whatever it is.
[14:10.040 --> 14:15.640] And actually, like now thinking back about the support groups, that one we kind of landed on by
[14:15.640 --> 14:20.440] going through a more structured process of trying to do the right thing. And that's obviously not
[14:20.440 --> 14:26.280] the only reason, but it's funny that that one didn't work out. And now with shimmer, like current
[14:26.280 --> 14:30.920] shimmer of ADHD coaching, I didn't go through this like structured process of trying to find the
[14:30.920 --> 14:36.520] perfect idea. I just had I was diagnosed with ADHD and I was looking for behavioral solution. And
[14:36.520 --> 14:41.960] just like piece by piece, it was almost like every step I took, I could just see more of what was
[14:41.960 --> 14:47.400] in front of me. And I wasn't trying to over intellectualize it or try to start at the perfect point
[14:47.400 --> 14:52.120] or like have the perfect vision in my head. So that just sprung that thought on my head. And I
[14:52.120 --> 14:55.640] thought it was really interesting. And now I'm having a moment of gratitude.
[14:56.600 --> 15:01.480] Well, and also, I mean, you were in Y Combinator too, right? So yeah, with the first one, with the
[15:01.480 --> 15:07.000] first one, with the first one support groups. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, but you learn a lot of that
[15:07.000 --> 15:13.880] fail fast mentality. Yeah. So just pivot as you need to. And yeah, so I've advised some companies
[15:13.880 --> 15:19.000] I worked with a business incubator and business accelerator here in Nashville years ago. And
[15:19.640 --> 15:24.840] mentored and advised a bunch of companies and stuff. And I guess my proudest moment was helping
[15:24.840 --> 15:29.960] a company get acquired by LinkedIn, which was pretty sweet. Although, I really loved their service.
[15:29.960 --> 15:34.840] And I miss it so much because I was a user. So I was like, oh, like, I got enough,
[15:34.920 --> 15:39.880] eating out by LinkedIn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So tell me, yeah, maybe back in other bit, what
[15:39.880 --> 15:45.880] were you like as a kid? Oh, man. So it's a little bit nostalgic because I'm in Vancouver with my
[15:45.880 --> 15:50.520] family right now. So they've been telling kind of funny stories about me as a kid. And I just
[15:50.520 --> 16:00.280] sit there like, oh, no, not again. But I was, so I was the more stereotypical male kid, like,
[16:00.280 --> 16:05.800] boy bouncing off the wall, obviously not a boy, but the stereotype that people have. But I was,
[16:06.520 --> 16:10.680] yeah, I was bouncing off the walls. I was always getting in trouble, getting kicked out of class.
[16:10.680 --> 16:15.800] I had like my little special desk that either faced the wall or faced the teacher,
[16:16.440 --> 16:20.760] depending on whatever one was less disruptive to other folks. And I still have these like
[16:20.760 --> 16:25.480] random memories where the teacher returned around. And I'd be like, I'll just climb under all
[16:25.560 --> 16:29.880] the desks and get to my friend and be like, oh, she can't see me. Obviously she could.
[16:30.760 --> 16:34.280] Now I'm uncovering a lot of moments where my mom says that to me now, she's like,
[16:34.280 --> 16:39.800] remember when you thought that I didn't know about X? And she's like, well, I did. I just,
[16:39.800 --> 16:43.720] if I had thought you on every single thing, I would be exhausted.
[16:45.800 --> 16:51.000] That's amazing, though. And it's funny. You like being, because you had what I, what I've read
[16:51.080 --> 16:56.680] about you too, I mean, and something that's often misunderstood with ADHD is you can be highly
[16:56.680 --> 17:03.080] intelligent and get good grades at school and things. So I was, and I believe you did pretty well,
[17:03.080 --> 17:08.840] right? Like as far as that goes. Yeah. So there was two columns in my report card.
[17:08.840 --> 17:12.920] I find it's really hilarious, but there was like the grade. So you get from your tests,
[17:12.920 --> 17:16.520] and then you get like this other grade. I don't know if this is a Canadian thing, but you get this
[17:16.600 --> 17:22.280] other grade on terms. It's basically a grade for your effort that you put in. Or like how well,
[17:22.280 --> 17:26.840] I don't think it's just effort. It might be a little bit, just like a more holistic thing and you
[17:26.840 --> 17:33.080] also get graded on that. So I usually got close to straight A's on the left side. And then on the
[17:33.080 --> 17:39.320] right side, I would get like whatever was the minimum, the minimum you could get without failing.
[17:39.320 --> 17:43.880] So I remember the lowest mark I always got was there was a specific grade you got for listening.
[17:43.880 --> 17:50.280] Like literally listening, you got a mark for. And I got C minus on that every single report card.
[17:50.280 --> 17:54.600] And I think everyone is just perplexed. They're like, this looks like two, these columns are like
[17:54.600 --> 17:58.440] two report cards from two different people. Oh, that's interesting. So would it even,
[17:58.440 --> 18:03.400] would it even out in your ultimate grade then? Or would it, or would you just have the two?
[18:04.040 --> 18:08.680] Yeah, the good thing is the ultimate grade is the grade on the left. So I think the right hand
[18:08.680 --> 18:12.920] side one was more for the teachers and the parents that have conversations. And for, I don't know,
[18:13.000 --> 18:16.360] like I just thought it was an extra reason for me to get in trouble. I was like, why don't we just
[18:16.360 --> 18:21.240] look at the left side? I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I was, yeah, but I was always
[18:21.240 --> 18:27.000] getting in trouble for the right side. I feel like at some point, yeah, people just start not
[18:27.000 --> 18:30.520] caring about the left side. But then when I got older, eventually the right side disappeared.
[18:30.520 --> 18:36.760] And it was just the the grades itself. And then that was, yeah, then, then, then that was,
[18:36.760 --> 18:42.120] I was having different problems then with being kind of the rebel kid. And yeah, I'm just like
[18:42.120 --> 18:48.040] going through memories now because my, my, I'm with my mom here. And she, she loves to give me.
[18:48.920 --> 18:51.720] I don't know if I can swear, but give me brief about stuff.
[18:52.360 --> 18:58.840] Swear away, swear away. I saw, I was reading one of the interviews with you. And the quote is,
[18:59.720 --> 19:05.320] most Asian families are a little bit hesitant about Western medicine. Even when I was growing up,
[19:05.320 --> 19:10.840] when we were sick, we wouldn't take medication. So tell me about that process with your, with your
[19:10.840 --> 19:15.960] parents, your mom about your own diagnosis, was it, were they, you know, were they supportive
[19:15.960 --> 19:21.080] questioning? Like, come on. What's there? Because culture, it's interesting. I've learned a lot
[19:21.080 --> 19:27.400] about different cultural interpretations and thoughts around ADHD, both diagnosis and treatment
[19:27.400 --> 19:32.440] and so forth. It's interesting. Yeah. I actually think that being Asian has had the most
[19:32.440 --> 19:38.280] significant impact on my experience as a person with ADHD more so than being a woman or anything else.
[19:38.280 --> 19:44.760] But I guess on the diagnosis specifically, when I was diagnosed and I told my parents, it was
[19:44.760 --> 19:52.040] actually not bad, but because I had came out as being queer a couple years ago. And that one hit
[19:52.040 --> 19:58.920] them in the face. And so this time they're like, oh, it's just ADHD. And so, and I think it's
[19:58.920 --> 20:04.200] different to like, as you get older, and if they see that I'm figuring things out, I'm getting
[20:04.600 --> 20:09.000] support. I need, they're like, okay, like, she's managing. It's, it's going to be okay. So I think
[20:09.000 --> 20:13.880] it's different than if I was like 18 and I, I told them, what, one, eight, no, wasn't out as being
[20:13.880 --> 20:19.800] queer. So I think it would have been the first surprise that I threw at them, just throwing
[20:19.800 --> 20:25.320] surprises at them all their life. But on the medication, I'm actually quite thankful everything
[20:25.320 --> 20:30.440] happened the way it did because I think that I wouldn't have created shimmer if I didn't have
[20:30.440 --> 20:38.040] the background that I did. And so I grew up definitely taking no Western medication. My grandma
[20:38.040 --> 20:44.200] lived with us my entire childhood. And she would make these disgusting tasting like natural drinks
[20:44.200 --> 20:48.920] that were made of like roots and fruits. And I don't know, like, you'd go to our gardens backyard
[20:48.920 --> 20:54.840] and take stuff out of it and put it in the in the in the mix. And that was what I was always told.
[20:54.840 --> 20:59.960] And then if I got a fever, she would just wrap me up as warm as I could in like multiple layers
[20:59.960 --> 21:05.240] of blanket and just like, let it out. And I would just be lying there sweating it out. So not
[21:05.240 --> 21:10.840] that it's right or wrong, but that was how I grew up. And so I had a natural resistance to medication
[21:10.840 --> 21:16.920] when I first was diagnosed. And also, yeah. And then in addition, I also have a little bit of
[21:16.920 --> 21:22.520] oppositional defiance, which is common with ADHD. So when my psychiatrist, the first thing she said was
[21:23.160 --> 21:27.800] here's some adderol come back when you want more or less. I immediately had, I think, an allergic
[21:27.800 --> 21:33.800] reaction to not just the medication, but the way that it was presented to me. So I now take
[21:33.800 --> 21:37.560] medication. So I've been on a whole journey. But in the beginning, I was like, this can't be
[21:38.200 --> 21:45.160] all that there is. And so I kind of defiantly went out looking for what is the compliment or
[21:45.160 --> 21:50.360] the alternative or what else is out there that that I can be able to approach as an option. Not saying
[21:50.360 --> 21:54.760] that I would roll out medication, but I just felt like I shouldn't just jump into the first option.
[21:55.560 --> 21:59.640] Because I kind of felt like I would just keep going down that same route if I didn't look now.
[21:59.640 --> 22:03.640] Yeah, I'm similar actually. And I think it's partly a Canadian thing too, because
[22:05.400 --> 22:11.320] well, first of all, I mean, for me growing up, yeah, I'm 52 now. And I've never been on
[22:11.320 --> 22:16.280] prescriptions for anything my entire life. And moving to the states, back in 2007,
[22:17.080 --> 22:20.600] every doctor's appointment, every doctor's appointment, they'd be, or you know,
[22:20.680 --> 22:25.160] go in for the flu or whatever, go see a nurse or someone, they'd be like, what prescription
[22:25.160 --> 22:29.080] are you on? And I'd be like, oh, nothing. And they're like, no, no, like, what drugs do you take
[22:29.080 --> 22:33.720] every month? I don't, I take vitamins. And they were always like shocked, like, wait, something's
[22:33.720 --> 22:38.280] not right here. Meanwhile, like for those listening who are not familiar, like in Canada,
[22:38.280 --> 22:42.840] in most places, I think, I think Singapore is the only, and the United States are the only
[22:42.840 --> 22:49.880] exceptions. They can't advertise drugs. So you don't go to your in Canada, you don't go to your doctor,
[22:49.880 --> 22:57.000] you don't ask your doctor about X, Y, and Z for Canada. Because you don't know about it,
[22:57.000 --> 23:01.720] right? It's really about the doctor's job to figure this stuff out and then propose it for you.
[23:01.720 --> 23:06.120] So it's not to say these medications don't exist elsewhere, like in Canada, for example,
[23:06.120 --> 23:11.720] coming here, my mother-in-law, God bless her, I love her. But she, she might as well be a pharmacist
[23:11.720 --> 23:15.640] or a chemist, like it's incredible. Like she, oh, are you on blah, blah, blah. I'm like, how do you
[23:15.640 --> 23:21.080] know about other stuff? So I think it's funny too, because, and I've shared this story on the
[23:21.080 --> 23:27.560] podcast before, but very quickly, I got naturalized as a US citizen and I hadn't got my passport yet.
[23:27.560 --> 23:33.400] And so I went to Toronto with my Canadian passport. And as I was coming back to the States,
[23:33.400 --> 23:37.800] I did not have an American passport, nor did I have my green card anymore because they take that
[23:37.800 --> 23:43.240] away when they give you the passport or when they give you the naturalization certificate.
[23:43.240 --> 23:47.960] So the, the guy's like, he's like, where's your passport? I'm like, well, I have a, here it is.
[23:47.960 --> 23:52.120] He's like, that's a Canadian passport. Where do you live? I'm like, well, in the States. And he's like,
[23:52.120 --> 23:58.280] and I'm like, okay. Yeah, I see the problem. So, but my joke since then is like, you know, until recently,
[23:58.280 --> 24:04.120] I was like, damn it, man, I'm in the US and not a year after becoming a US citizen. Now I don't have
[24:04.120 --> 24:10.760] a passport and I'm on prescription drugs. Like, it's all right. Yeah, yeah. All I need now is like
[24:10.760 --> 24:17.320] machine guns and things. But yeah, it's interesting growing up on, on these concoctions,
[24:17.320 --> 24:23.080] these natural medications or that your grandma would make you. And then, and then suddenly, yeah,
[24:23.080 --> 24:29.560] shifting to, you know, more Western medication that and not having that work quite right. Because for
[24:29.560 --> 24:37.640] me, you know, I was diagnosed. I started taking different stimulants. I had some side effects,
[24:37.640 --> 24:41.560] so I shift, I shifted to a different one. And then we're, you know, exploring the dosage.
[24:42.280 --> 24:49.960] But because my anxiety was so clear and depression, but especially in my anxiety, my, my psychiatrist
[24:49.960 --> 24:55.480] was like, okay, hold on a second. Let's pause on the stimulants. Let's introduce some stuff for
[24:55.480 --> 25:01.560] anxiety. Let's get the anxiety treated right. And then reintroduce the stimulants to get that
[25:01.560 --> 25:07.080] balance. And I wrote a blog post about this a while back because when you're on medication for
[25:07.080 --> 25:12.520] depression or anxiety or anything, you can't just stop. It's not safe. And I'm not a doctor,
[25:12.520 --> 25:16.920] nor do I pretend I am one on the internet. But you can't just, you know, you're not supposed to
[25:16.920 --> 25:22.520] just stop. But with, with stimulants, at least according to my therapist, I could. You can, you can
[25:22.520 --> 25:29.720] stop. And, and I did for a week under her, you know, recommendation. And I, I use the analogy.
[25:29.720 --> 25:34.440] I'm one of those people like you hear all the time where people say like, oh, or they say it online,
[25:34.440 --> 25:39.320] we're like, I started on a stimulant and the clouds are part of it. And I see the light. And
[25:39.320 --> 25:43.720] oh, my God, this is what life is supposed to be like. And, and all this stuff. And I wasn't one of
[25:43.720 --> 25:48.040] those people like I started taking stimulants. And I'm like, am I feeling any different? I can't tell.
[25:49.240 --> 25:55.080] Until I went off for a week. And then the analogy I use was that I was like, I felt like I was
[25:55.080 --> 26:00.680] treading water in like a really nice pool at a super shwanky resort. And I'm in the middle of the
[26:00.680 --> 26:05.640] pool. And I'm treading water. And it's great. And like I'll probably have a drink delivered.
[26:05.640 --> 26:10.760] Non-alcoholic, of course, at some point. And, and things are great. But my arms are starting to get
[26:10.760 --> 26:15.640] a little sore. And my feet are getting, my legs are getting a little sore. And, and next thing I
[26:15.640 --> 26:21.960] know, I'm like drowning. I'm like, oh, my God. And with the overwhelm of everything. And I wrote about
[26:21.960 --> 26:28.280] this. But a lot of people responded saying, yeah, that was similar for me when I paused on stimulants
[26:28.280 --> 26:35.000] because it was then that I realized, oh, okay. They were working. I don't know. Have you
[26:35.000 --> 26:39.960] experienced any of that with your own experiences with medication stimulants and such?
[26:40.760 --> 26:47.160] I actually, I did kind of feel a light version of that. Maybe not as dramatic as like the clouds
[26:47.160 --> 26:54.760] were parting. But I definitely felt like there was just this quieting in my mind when I started
[26:54.760 --> 27:00.680] taking even just a little bit of medication. I was lucky that I got to the right medication pretty
[27:00.680 --> 27:07.560] quickly. And it, yeah, it was like, it was like, there was just, there were like all these people
[27:07.560 --> 27:12.200] in my head. And then suddenly there was just like one person. And this one person like has a
[27:12.200 --> 27:17.960] goal and is like moving towards the goal at like all times. I'm exaggerating a little bit, but it
[27:17.960 --> 27:25.240] was clean. It felt like relative to what it was before it felt clean. And I didn't, I'm happy
[27:25.240 --> 27:31.080] actually that I didn't try it until a little bit later because I felt like I was in a better spot
[27:31.640 --> 27:38.600] because of because of coaching. I had some systems in place and some routines in place because
[27:38.600 --> 27:45.160] when I felt that, it definitely would feel easy for me to just want more and more of it. And I
[27:45.160 --> 27:49.960] actually have, so part of my experience too. And I think why I was a little bit averse to it
[27:49.960 --> 27:55.000] in the beginning is that I have several friends with ADHD who have been diagnosed as a kid. And
[27:55.000 --> 28:01.640] they're on very, very strong doses now. And when I asked them, I talked to them a lot about it
[28:01.640 --> 28:06.200] before making kind of all of my decisions. And they were saying, well, when you've been on it since
[28:06.200 --> 28:11.960] you were like four, there's multiple, there's multiple points where you just keep increasing the
[28:12.040 --> 28:18.280] doses. And so now this is what I'm on. And and just sometimes just seeing like the nervousness of
[28:18.280 --> 28:23.640] them, which is different from me of like what would happen if I didn't have it for one day or two
[28:23.640 --> 28:28.600] days. And that question, I would answer very differently. And so that was part of the reason too.
[28:29.320 --> 28:35.160] Obviously a personal decision and where I'm at, but to try to get as much kind of behavioral
[28:35.160 --> 28:42.200] foundation as possible so that I don't feel as I guess like scared or anxious that something is
[28:42.200 --> 28:47.000] going to happen. And I mean, I do that in my personal life too, like literally people always say,
[28:47.000 --> 28:50.680] like they're like, why don't you have a backpack or a purse or anything? And I'm like, because I'm
[28:50.680 --> 28:55.240] going to lose it. So like, so you just don't have, you just don't have one. I was like, yeah, like
[28:55.240 --> 29:01.880] the best way to not lose things just to not have things. So like when I go to even like a festival
[29:01.960 --> 29:07.800] or a bar or anything like that, like I, I don't bring things. I just bring myself. Yeah, yeah.
[29:07.800 --> 29:12.600] That's a good strategy. Anyway, the random tangent. Now, what was that Bob Dylan line? It's like,
[29:12.600 --> 29:17.560] if you, if you have nothing, you have nothing to lose or something like it kind of, it kind of fits.
[29:17.560 --> 29:23.320] It works. Yeah, that's great. Actually, I like that. Yeah, it's interesting. Like I think
[29:23.320 --> 29:28.040] your point about getting the foundations down, especially for late diagnosed folks or people that
[29:28.040 --> 29:32.840] are recently diagnosed. It's not to, not to poo poo medication. Of course, like, like, do you?
[29:32.840 --> 29:38.360] Yeah, of course. Dr. Suggest and whatever you agree with. That's a given. But I was really lucky
[29:38.360 --> 29:44.760] because in 2020, you know, obviously the world was imploding and we had a tornado in Nashville that
[29:44.760 --> 29:48.760] destroyed my kid's school. And then we had another storm that knocked us out of our house for three
[29:48.760 --> 29:53.640] months. And my business as a, as a speaker and I was serving, I was speaking for Google for six
[29:53.720 --> 29:59.320] years back then, you know, everything sort of froze and sorted my bank account as an entrepreneur.
[29:59.320 --> 30:06.280] I'm like, Oh, crap. So it was a very stressful time. But it was during that time that I started taking
[30:06.280 --> 30:12.840] my fitness more seriously. I started taking my mental health more seriously. So I started meditating
[30:12.840 --> 30:18.840] and like a daily meditation and mindfulness practice. I quit drinking and have been sober for
[30:18.840 --> 30:25.560] more plus years. I did a sleep apnea test out of curiosity. And part of this was also because
[30:25.560 --> 30:31.080] my dad was sort of at the ladder stages of dementia and Alzheimer's. And so I was like, well, I'll
[30:31.080 --> 30:38.200] be damned if I'm going to get dementia or Alzheimer's. And as I researched it, things like sobriety
[30:38.200 --> 30:43.240] will really help exercise will really help mindfulness or really help journaling and things,
[30:43.320 --> 30:50.360] which I do. And also sleep apnea is a big problem because your oxygen gets cut off to your brain
[30:50.360 --> 30:56.280] at night. So I got a test. And now it, you know, sure enough, yeah, I got sleep apnea too. So now I
[30:56.280 --> 31:05.560] got the, the mask. My dad, my dad has that too. We make fun of him. We are not making out tonight.
[31:05.560 --> 31:15.080] Nothing spices up the bedroom like a CPAP mask Darth Vader. But I digress. Yeah. So I think,
[31:15.080 --> 31:22.680] but doing all these things and handling being an extrovert during a pandemic and all these things
[31:22.680 --> 31:29.240] and the loneliness that went along with that really helped me prepare for the diagnosis later
[31:29.400 --> 31:36.120] of ADHD and subsequent treatment as well. Because I'm already, I'm already, you know, meditating. And so
[31:36.120 --> 31:41.480] and not just in mindfulness and things. So, um, yeah, I think that's a great, great point.
[31:41.480 --> 31:46.760] Yeah. I think the foundational at Shimmer in it's part of our coaching model, but we call
[31:46.760 --> 31:51.960] behavioral medicine of fitness, nutrition, sleep, mindfulness. I would probably add to that as well
[31:51.960 --> 31:56.680] is so important. People come and sometimes they're like, no, I just like want the productivity
[31:56.680 --> 32:03.160] strategies now. And we're like, well, okay, it's kind of the same version of like that desire to
[32:03.160 --> 32:06.920] have a quick fix or a magic pill or whatever it's called, even in coaching, there's those quick
[32:06.920 --> 32:12.040] fixes, which is generally like, I want, like, I want to be able to work more hours during the day.
[32:12.040 --> 32:17.960] And I want the, the, the tips to be able to do that. And the first thing we try to encourage
[32:17.960 --> 32:22.440] folks to do is like to take a step back and say, okay, well, first of all, like in order to show
[32:22.520 --> 32:28.120] up to do that, um, let's try to address like how are you doing with your foundational things?
[32:28.120 --> 32:32.680] Because if you're not doing well with them, you can, you can, you're just going to spin your
[32:32.680 --> 32:37.240] wheels faster and faster, but you're not going to move anywhere. And if you just fix these things,
[32:37.240 --> 32:41.720] you are probably going to just become productive automatically. Like you, your battery in your mind
[32:41.720 --> 32:46.680] and your body is literally, if it's not charged, you wouldn't try to like, I don't know, like,
[32:46.680 --> 32:50.600] I think this is the bad analogy, but like upgrade and like buy more apps in your phone, you're just
[32:50.600 --> 32:55.720] like charged the battery, you know, I can move faster. No, that's true. And let's talk about
[32:55.720 --> 33:02.200] Shimmer too, obviously, because, and, and coaching too, because I think the perfect sort of mix for
[33:02.200 --> 33:07.800] people, at least in my own experience is, so I have like a psychiatrist who handles the medication
[33:07.800 --> 33:13.880] for the most part. And I have a little chat with once a month or so. I have a therapist who
[33:13.880 --> 33:18.920] specializes in CBT, so cognitive behavioral therapy is just kind of helping me through that side.
[33:18.920 --> 33:24.440] I had an ADHD coach who said, Dave, you know more than I do at this point.
[33:26.440 --> 33:32.040] So because of the like, you know, being hyper focused on this topic and all in on the podcast and
[33:32.040 --> 33:39.240] things. So, but obviously having an ADHD coach can also help. I think it's, it's such an important
[33:39.240 --> 33:44.920] mix of at least in my experience of sort of the medicinal side of things, the pharmaceutical,
[33:44.920 --> 33:51.240] the, you know, the doctor side of things. And then the coach to support you and to help you
[33:51.240 --> 33:56.840] with strategies outside of that. But I do know it's a bit of a fine line sometimes. And a dance,
[33:56.840 --> 34:01.880] you have to, as a coach, you have to, you know, be careful because you're not advising on medicine
[34:01.880 --> 34:06.760] and things like that. Yeah. Tell me about that dance between coaching and therapy or, and,
[34:07.720 --> 34:13.400] yeah, how Shimmer fits into that. Yeah. So I would say there's largely three buckets that you
[34:13.400 --> 34:19.240] mentioned, kind of medication therapy and coaching. And the one that people get confused about is
[34:19.240 --> 34:24.520] obviously therapy and coaching because they might look the same from the outside. And so I'll focus
[34:24.520 --> 34:30.520] on those. But therapy and coaching are actually very different. There are coaches who are trained
[34:30.520 --> 34:37.160] in both. So sometimes it feels a little bit similar. But coaching is forward oriented and action
[34:37.160 --> 34:42.840] oriented. And it's for folks who are in a solid foundation, a spot, you're not here to heal, you're
[34:42.840 --> 34:49.320] here to move forward and move towards a goal. And therapy, on the other hand, the modality is
[34:49.320 --> 34:55.480] more past looking. So it's about conceptualizing where you came from, what that means for you,
[34:55.480 --> 35:01.560] and kind of how to reframe those things. And then there is a focus on healing as well. So therapy
[35:01.560 --> 35:06.360] more traditionally for depression, anxiety, can obviously be applied to everything. So this is
[35:06.360 --> 35:12.280] more general. And then coaching, you even span to like exact coaching, right? So folks who are
[35:12.280 --> 35:18.360] CEOs or see sweet, who are looking to be able to manage their employees better or whatever it is.
[35:18.360 --> 35:23.480] So those are kind of the two spectrums. But there is going to be a little bit of overlap. And I
[35:23.480 --> 35:28.840] think the challenge with the coaching industry that we found kind of especially before Shimmer
[35:28.840 --> 35:35.400] existed was that there were a lot of coaches who were going into coach therapy territory. And
[35:35.400 --> 35:39.960] that is a problem. They shouldn't be. So when coaching is done properly, it actually should have
[35:39.960 --> 35:46.040] way less overlap with therapy than what a lot of people think that there is. So that's one of the
[35:46.040 --> 35:53.400] things that we're trying to fix. But on coaching specifically, it's interesting what your coach said
[35:53.400 --> 36:00.440] about that you know more than more than them already. So coaching, we'd like to break it down
[36:00.520 --> 36:06.520] 80 HD coaching specifically covers three things. It's life coaching, executive functioning coaching
[36:06.520 --> 36:12.040] and cycle education. So I think that coach that you had is probably referring more to the second two
[36:12.040 --> 36:17.800] pieces. So maybe the executive function coaching and the cycle education. There are coaches who just
[36:17.800 --> 36:21.800] call themselves an executive function coach, which would probably cover more of the second two.
[36:22.440 --> 36:29.640] And I think the part that is less understood and maybe practiced more loosely is the first part
[36:29.640 --> 36:34.520] of life coaching. So depending on where you're at in your 80 HD journey, you'll get a lot of
[36:34.520 --> 36:38.680] different value from your coach. So if you're just starting off, maybe you'll be getting a little bit
[36:38.680 --> 36:42.840] more cycle education as you're learning about your 80 HD. You want to learn about how your 80 HD
[36:42.840 --> 36:49.080] in your brain works and what's causing all your symptoms and how you want to move forward versus
[36:49.080 --> 36:54.840] I would say now in my journey, my coaching is mostly in the life coaching realm actually with
[36:54.840 --> 36:59.240] the 80 HD spend to it. I would say that we don't talk as much about cycle education or executive
[36:59.240 --> 37:06.040] functions specifically, but obviously it comes up in conversation as well. So I think it's a very
[37:06.040 --> 37:11.400] beautiful, but obviously I'm biased, but like the nuance of 80 HD coaching and kind of the skills
[37:11.400 --> 37:18.600] that are required and then also when a member comes kind of assessing where they're at and then
[37:19.240 --> 37:25.400] meeting them with the side of a solution that is best for it. You know, I always go back to this
[37:25.400 --> 37:30.440] line about which I learned years ago from therapy, which was, you know, if you think too much of
[37:30.440 --> 37:36.040] the past, it can lead to depression. If you think too much of the future can lead to anxiety
[37:36.040 --> 37:41.160] and so part of the key is being present and it certainly fits and mindful and so on.
[37:41.720 --> 37:46.200] But obviously when you run a business, I mean, you do have to look back at like last year and
[37:46.200 --> 37:51.000] compare it to this and see what growth is there, hopefully. And then on the other side of that,
[37:51.000 --> 37:56.440] you know, looking forward by like actually planning for the year and and you know, all that stuff.
[37:56.440 --> 38:02.200] So from a business perspective, but I like the analogy to you because yeah, with with a life coach
[38:02.840 --> 38:11.960] who also is trained as an 80 HD coach who so like shimmer coaches who is aware of your potential
[38:11.960 --> 38:19.160] challenges because of 80 HD. So they know your neurotype and they know they they can help you kind
[38:19.160 --> 38:25.320] of move forward in a good way and plan and move forward in a in a good and safe way. You know,
[38:25.320 --> 38:30.920] whether it's growing your business or your career and so forth. Yeah, tell me so
[38:32.600 --> 38:39.160] yeah, feeling like even myself, right? Who is? I am without a coach right now and I probably need
[38:39.560 --> 38:47.160] certainly for the life. You know, because I do hit those walls and I do get overwhelmed and
[38:47.800 --> 38:55.720] a lot of I keep thinking of myself now is just like 2.0 version of Dave who now with therapy and
[38:55.720 --> 39:04.200] support and and knowledge of my operating system as I call it in my head. I feel like the best
[39:04.200 --> 39:11.640] version of me is is just launching. Maybe it's kind of alpha right now or I'm kind of getting
[39:11.640 --> 39:19.160] there and because I'm now aware of the challenges I have and why I have them and understanding too
[39:19.160 --> 39:26.120] that like, Hey, here's an idea. Give yourself some grace and it's okay. You're out of steam.
[39:26.120 --> 39:32.120] Like go for a walk with the dog. Like it's fine. Like it's okay. As long as there's not fires to
[39:32.120 --> 39:38.600] put out, you know, or anything like that. And I think traditionally like, where do you stand in
[39:38.600 --> 39:45.000] the terms? Because like life coaching has like it's kind of like the presentations idea. Like the
[39:45.000 --> 39:50.520] route down I do is about knowing yourself, respecting yourself and connecting yourself. And it's about
[39:50.520 --> 39:56.760] ADHD as well. And this is my next book I'm working on, but it's much more motivational. But like
[39:56.840 --> 40:02.920] if I said I'm a motivational speaker, it just feels kind of cheesy. And life coach is a term to me
[40:02.920 --> 40:09.000] feels kind of cheesy. But maybe because it's sort of, I don't know, like, you know, old and and
[40:09.000 --> 40:15.800] have seen a lot of like kind of scammers and all this stuff. So yeah, what are your thoughts on all
[40:15.800 --> 40:22.920] that? Is the language right wrong? Or like, yeah. Yeah. So I think the the challenge with the word
[40:22.920 --> 40:27.640] coach is that it's an unprotected term so that anyone can call themselves a coach. And what
[40:27.640 --> 40:33.880] that results in is definitely there's going to be bad actors. And so I try to think of it as not
[40:33.880 --> 40:39.640] like what are the worst coaches out there? But what does a good ADHD coach look like? And so I bring
[40:39.640 --> 40:46.440] out life coach as one of the three pieces of ADHD coaching. But we actually don't often refer
[40:46.440 --> 40:50.680] directly to that. It's only when people are like, well, what exactly is ADHD coaching? And we say
[40:50.760 --> 40:56.280] that, well, in our opinion, the best version of ADHD coaching includes the foundations from life
[40:56.280 --> 41:01.880] coaching, from executive function, which includes knowledge and coaching and then also psychoeducation,
[41:01.880 --> 41:07.240] which is more around neurodevelopmental conditions and what those actually look like in the science
[41:07.240 --> 41:11.640] behind it and staying up to date with it. So those three things together, when a person has all
[41:11.640 --> 41:18.120] those three, that's what enables them to become and to apply for a shimmer of coach. And so we don't
[41:18.200 --> 41:22.680] often say life coaching by itself because I agree with you. And I think that the reason is because
[41:22.680 --> 41:27.640] there are always going to be bad coaches. There are always going to be life coaches who just
[41:27.640 --> 41:32.120] went through a random certification and then called themselves that and then say a lot of stuff
[41:32.120 --> 41:38.840] on Instagram, become a motivational speaker, whatever it is. But I try not to, yeah, try not to
[41:38.840 --> 41:44.840] and encourage others to not base your decision on the worst version of insert word here. But
[41:44.920 --> 41:49.800] really look for and define for yourself or look to other thought leaders to define what good
[41:49.800 --> 41:53.800] actually looks like because there's obviously good that comes from all of these things or else they
[41:53.800 --> 42:01.720] wouldn't exist. And kind of maybe separating out the separate actions that have made these things,
[42:01.720 --> 42:07.880] made these things look bad. Yeah, totally. I always encourage people to, I always recommend
[42:08.840 --> 42:17.640] to ask for referrals. And not necessarily with, I mean, so I've done a lot of business coaching
[42:17.640 --> 42:22.360] over the years, especially pretending to like content marketing and digital and all that stuff
[42:22.360 --> 42:27.480] before social media became completely evil. But that's another story for another day.
[42:28.520 --> 42:34.520] But so I've helped a lot of companies grow and independent entrepreneurs build their businesses
[42:34.520 --> 42:42.280] online. And so I am still a coach with full disclosure to people that I'm not an ADHD coach.
[42:42.280 --> 42:48.040] However, I've learned a thing or two. But I don't position, I don't, I don't say I'm an ADHD
[42:48.040 --> 42:53.160] coach and I'm fully disclosed that up front too. But I do always recommend, yeah, check,
[42:53.800 --> 42:59.560] check recommendations, check testimonials. I have like roughly 150 recommendations on my LinkedIn
[43:00.520 --> 43:05.080] profile. And so I always tell people like connect with me on LinkedIn and you can go peruse
[43:05.080 --> 43:09.720] all those reviews. And the beautiful thing about that is it provides social proof because it's not
[43:09.720 --> 43:14.840] John S says Dave Delaney is wonderful. But it's actually like, yeah, John Smith and you can click his
[43:14.840 --> 43:19.720] link and go to his LinkedIn profile and message him and ask like I saw your recommendation for Dave
[43:19.720 --> 43:26.680] is you really all that. So I think that's, that's important to do, do diligence. But I think
[43:27.240 --> 43:34.120] what's really impressive with Shimmer and watching your success and yeah, I mean, it's and I
[43:34.120 --> 43:41.000] haven't tried shivers. I probably should. But it is, yeah, yeah, no, I would love to. It's it's
[43:41.000 --> 43:49.080] been great. And I think it's awesome to see you embracing your own operating system and then
[43:49.080 --> 43:55.320] building a business around that. I think, I think that's a lot of the times with with things where
[43:56.120 --> 44:01.080] it's like I sometimes think that every productivity expert has ADHD. They just don't know.
[44:04.760 --> 44:10.200] Yeah, they're like hyper focused on solving these challenges they have not realizing that like,
[44:10.200 --> 44:15.720] yes, everybody has productivity challenges, certainly. But we tend to have maybe a little
[44:15.720 --> 44:23.000] yeah, the people who like make it their life probably have some deeper challenges to begin with.
[44:23.080 --> 44:29.240] Yeah, so you just landed, I was a 2.2 million seed round, which is awesome. Congrats on that.
[44:29.240 --> 44:34.840] That's huge. And that's fantastic. So what are your plans for Shimmer moving forward? What's
[44:35.480 --> 44:39.800] yeah, what is the future seems pretty bright? So what's what are you doing?
[44:40.600 --> 44:46.520] Yeah, thank you. So our mission is to help every person who's neurodivergent reach their full
[44:46.520 --> 44:53.320] potential and then italics their way. So helping them define that as well. So right now we
[44:54.120 --> 44:58.920] have our flagship program with our adult ADHD coaching program. We actually recently launched
[44:58.920 --> 45:04.520] our teen ADHD program as well, which is one of the biggest undertakings that we've done. And then
[45:04.520 --> 45:11.080] yes, just yesterday, we also launched a suite of AI tools for our coaches and our members.
[45:11.080 --> 45:16.840] So I bring those up because in the beginning of this conversation, I was talking about how
[45:17.960 --> 45:22.760] it kind of feels like every step I take, we open up something in front of us. And that's a little
[45:22.760 --> 45:28.040] bit different than I think other companies, but that's kind of how we approach the way that we build.
[45:28.040 --> 45:32.760] Every time we build something, we find more problems and more challenges or more opportunities
[45:32.760 --> 45:37.880] that we see in those respective spaces. Even for example, launching the teen program,
[45:37.960 --> 45:41.720] we thought it was going to be a short endeavor. And the moment we opened that up and we started
[45:41.720 --> 45:46.760] talking to experts and we started designing the methodology we realized it was a very large effort
[45:46.760 --> 45:51.400] and we've now launched kind of two or three versions of it already since we built that out. So
[45:52.040 --> 45:59.080] I think going forward, it's continuing that spirit of looking for what else needs to be solved
[45:59.080 --> 46:04.120] in order to enable that mission to come true. So some things, for example, right now we're
[46:04.120 --> 46:10.280] very focused on the individual. And even if you give the individual all the tools, if they're
[46:10.280 --> 46:15.560] sitting in a system that doesn't work for them, it's going to be an uphill battle and we don't
[46:15.560 --> 46:20.840] put all of the responsibility and onus on that individual, creating a new, inclusive world requires
[46:20.840 --> 46:27.080] all of our work. So we're starting to do more events for the community, events for employers,
[46:27.080 --> 46:35.640] events for healthcare providers and health systems as well to essentially create that external
[46:35.640 --> 46:40.600] environment that is going to be welcoming, that is going to be your inclusives. And at the end
[46:40.600 --> 46:45.400] of the day, I mean, everyone benefits from being more near-inclusive. So I think those are some
[46:45.400 --> 46:51.880] of the directions that we're exploring and heading in. But I think that I'm not the type of founder
[46:51.880 --> 46:56.280] who is like this would be exact version of the world 10 years from now and that's what we're
[46:56.280 --> 47:01.160] building towards because I think I've lived long enough to know that we're constantly discovering
[47:01.160 --> 47:06.920] kind of the next step. And I think that our team is also, because our team is mostly neurodivergent,
[47:07.720 --> 47:12.280] we're very much so like follow the passion, follow the problems. And that's how we do our best work
[47:12.280 --> 47:17.240] because we get hyper focused on whatever step is in front of us. How do you do that with like,
[47:18.600 --> 47:24.040] I was going to say mature way, but that's not right. But how do you do it in a sense that so
[47:24.040 --> 47:33.000] I did. So I bought a hot tub in 2020. I've always loved a hot tub. And every time my wife and I get
[47:33.000 --> 47:38.120] into it like every night, we're always like, this is the best decision we've ever made. You know,
[47:38.120 --> 47:45.080] it's great. But I'll go in there by myself. And sometimes for a long time, I bring my phone. And I
[47:45.080 --> 47:50.280] realize like I'm wasting so much time here with my phone, which is designed to be distracting. And
[47:51.000 --> 47:58.120] other topic I can talk a lot about. But so what I started doing was not bringing it. And instead
[47:58.120 --> 48:04.360] as an experiment, I brought like a legal pad of paper and a pen. And I as I was just sitting there
[48:04.360 --> 48:11.000] with nothing else, thinking I would just write down my thought that I would have picked my phone
[48:11.080 --> 48:20.360] up for. So like was Brad Pitt in Moneyball or whatever, right? Like just random. And I wrote like a
[48:20.360 --> 48:27.960] list of like 10 or 15 things. And then I reviewed the list later and realized like most of this
[48:27.960 --> 48:33.320] is kind of pointless or irrelevant. And maybe there was a couple things. Yeah, I need to look into
[48:33.320 --> 48:39.240] for work or for business and such. But then I also did the math where like, you know, each time you
[48:39.240 --> 48:44.280] pick up your phone. And this is my own math. So you know, it might be different for different people.
[48:44.280 --> 48:49.800] But I would say when you pick up your phone, you're going to spend maybe three to five minutes on it
[48:49.800 --> 48:55.960] probably. You know, you're going to have a notification and blah, blah, blah. So you're going to get,
[48:55.960 --> 49:03.400] you know, distracted. And I did the math. And like for each, it was something like 40, 45 minutes
[49:03.400 --> 49:09.240] total. Had I been in the hot tub at the time with my phone, I would have spent like 40, 45 minutes
[49:09.240 --> 49:15.560] of that time looking out pointless stuff with my phone. And I realized that like pulling back.
[49:16.520 --> 49:25.080] And the question here is in that mature point that I mentioned is that where is it that you're
[49:25.080 --> 49:30.360] obviously coming up with different ideas for Shimmer, different products, different services,
[49:30.360 --> 49:34.200] different target markets, different directions. You mentioned events and things like that,
[49:34.200 --> 49:41.160] which we should talk more about. Where are you in that process where you're like, okay, hold on.
[49:41.720 --> 49:46.360] Let's let's can this idea for a little bit or put it on the back burner rather than like,
[49:46.360 --> 49:51.960] oh, squirrel, like idea, idea, idea, you know. Yeah, totally. No, I see what you're asking.
[49:53.400 --> 49:59.080] I think there's a couple things here. I think one is I'm very big. Like I mentioned before that I
[49:59.080 --> 50:03.400] had structured my life and then that disappeared. That was really hard for me. So now I think a lot
[50:03.400 --> 50:10.760] about how to create that structure in my company. And well, therefore for myself too, because I spend
[50:10.760 --> 50:16.280] so much of my time working. And I try to think of like, you know, a metronome when you
[50:16.280 --> 50:22.040] see a piano and it just runs. And then because it's running, you automatically get paced. And so I try
[50:22.040 --> 50:28.200] to create as much metronomes in my life to like take that burden off me. So we have like a very
[50:28.200 --> 50:32.440] specific yearly planning, a very specific quarterly planning, a very specific monthly planning,
[50:32.440 --> 50:36.680] and then we work from that. So we're always working towards our bigger goals and our smaller goals.
[50:36.680 --> 50:41.160] And then obviously at any point when we're looking at the next one, we can change them. Like if we
[50:41.160 --> 50:45.080] decide that we can change them, then we can change them. So I think that is like the first thing that
[50:45.080 --> 50:49.080] helps a lot. And then the second thing, which actually this is, it's funny that you asked because
[50:49.080 --> 50:55.160] this is an exact thing that I've worked on recently with my ADHD coach is having very clear
[50:55.160 --> 51:01.880] definitions of like where a project is in. So when a project, when someone has an idea, I used to
[51:01.880 --> 51:06.280] always say like, oh, that's a great idea. And because I genuinely did think it was a great idea,
[51:06.280 --> 51:10.680] but then people would think that because I said it as the CEO, it's going to happen. And so they'd
[51:10.680 --> 51:14.440] be like, well, where's the thing? You know, you said that it was a great idea. And I was like, well,
[51:14.440 --> 51:20.040] I actually just met it was a great idea. And so now I try to communicate and like, okay, that is a
[51:20.040 --> 51:24.520] great idea. We're going to move that into phase one, where we're going to look at it. And it's
[51:24.520 --> 51:29.080] going to spend this much time looking at it. And only if we like it, we'll move it into phase two,
[51:29.080 --> 51:34.120] which is we will scope the project and put a timeline on it. So that way we can want a lot of
[51:34.120 --> 51:39.560] things, but they don't all actively make it into phase two or phase three. So that when, and then
[51:39.560 --> 51:43.320] this way, it also helps with everyone in their time and not getting burnt out because if I,
[51:43.320 --> 51:47.720] if anyone puts on the table like, hey, here's another idea, they're like, okay, well, I'm working on
[51:47.720 --> 51:53.320] two other things that are in phase two. I can't do all three of them. So do you want this more than
[51:53.320 --> 51:57.240] these? And so it gives everyone a common language. So it's not like, oh, I don't want to do work.
[51:57.240 --> 52:02.040] It doesn't, it doesn't feel like you're, you're turning someone down or looking lazy or whatever
[52:02.040 --> 52:06.600] all the things that we tell ourselves. But it's like, okay, like, I like that idea too. And so
[52:06.600 --> 52:10.360] it would mean that this one would drop off. Are we okay with that? And so having all of this
[52:10.360 --> 52:16.360] common language, I think, helps with this whole not being pulled in a million directions. And
[52:16.360 --> 52:21.240] then also not feeling like we lost a great idea. You know, it's just in the parking lot. And we can
[52:21.480 --> 52:25.640] revisit it the next time we go, we do our quarterly planning and we can look at these things and say,
[52:25.640 --> 52:30.760] okay, do we still want these things or not? And oftentimes it's like an impulse purchase. Sometimes
[52:30.760 --> 52:35.160] we're like, well, actually, that wasn't really a good idea. I probably should have left it in my
[52:35.160 --> 52:40.520] cart for another day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, what about for, for solar burners? Because I think a lot,
[52:40.520 --> 52:46.360] like, speaking for myself here, right? Because, you know, you have a team to support you and to bounce
[52:46.360 --> 52:52.600] ideas from and to help prioritize things. What about for a solar burner? Besides, get a coach,
[52:52.600 --> 52:59.480] which obviously would be a really wonderful idea. Any thoughts about that? You know, and I'll add
[52:59.480 --> 53:05.320] to that with my diagnosis and treatment and understanding my OS, as I mentioned, I realized,
[53:05.320 --> 53:11.560] like, I'm not great at everything. And it's not to say that I was like, that I ever thought I was.
[53:11.560 --> 53:16.120] It's just that I did everything without thinking I'm not great. Without that realization,
[53:16.120 --> 53:21.400] like, oh, wait a minute. Yeah, I need help. What are your thoughts on that?
[53:22.280 --> 53:27.000] Yeah, I think it's such a blessing and a curse to be a solar purer. I think I was that in the
[53:27.000 --> 53:32.440] very beginning for a little bit. And it's because all the things that you set, you technically,
[53:32.440 --> 53:37.080] if you just worked harder, you could, you could just do it, you know? So I feel like it almost gives
[53:37.640 --> 53:42.120] you, it gives you less accountability because it's not, now I'm like, oh, no, this is like,
[53:43.080 --> 53:47.160] I don't know, this is like Elizabeth's time, you know? Like I feel more like I'm treating it
[53:47.160 --> 53:51.160] well because it's someone else's time versus this is Chris's time. It's like, oh, just work a little
[53:51.160 --> 53:57.800] bit harder and I'll get it done. So yeah, I think that you have to be almost even more strict about
[53:57.800 --> 54:03.800] the structures that you do set and kind of setting aside time to actually think about the structure.
[54:03.880 --> 54:08.200] So you can do that with yourself or with a coach, you can just, and then committing to those
[54:08.200 --> 54:12.360] structures, I think is the biggest thing because it's very, it's easier to commit those structures
[54:12.360 --> 54:17.080] and write them out when you're in like planning mode, then when you get into execution mode,
[54:17.080 --> 54:21.480] if you still have these loose structures and not, you haven't really made commitments to yourself,
[54:21.480 --> 54:25.080] it's very easy to get into a slippery slope of like, oh, I'll just do that other thing.
[54:25.080 --> 54:29.320] Oh, if I just push a little bit harder, I can actually get both of these things done. So I think
[54:29.880 --> 54:35.800] it's about designing that system and then having touch points maybe like quarterly or whatever it is
[54:36.520 --> 54:43.880] to revisit those systems and say, okay, like in the last three months, I have been exhausted.
[54:43.880 --> 54:47.800] Let's look at what about this system is not working. So I mean, you've done coaching for a while,
[54:47.800 --> 54:52.680] you could probably do some element of self-coaching to be able to get you to that point because I think
[54:52.680 --> 54:58.440] it's all just about cycles, doing the thing, looking back, then setting the next cycle,
[54:58.440 --> 55:03.240] then looking back, it's just about making sure you get those cycles in because I think with
[55:03.240 --> 55:07.880] people with ADHD, it's so easy to conceptually understand that you want these cycles, but then
[55:07.880 --> 55:14.040] when in practice, it just lifts off your list of things to do and then you end up just like pummeling
[55:14.040 --> 55:18.200] through through life and they just all like all the baggage just miles and piles.
[55:19.000 --> 55:24.760] Yeah, I hear you there. Yeah, and that time blindness can be pretty pesky too. As it has been
[55:24.760 --> 55:34.120] today because man, the time is flying by here. Yeah, I'm like, oh my god. So as we wind this down
[55:34.120 --> 55:38.680] because I want to be respectful of your time and know you're busy, do you have any questions
[55:38.680 --> 55:44.040] for me that I didn't or anything that I didn't ask you about or that you'd like to ask or
[55:44.040 --> 55:49.640] and thank you for drinking from the Toronto mug represent. Yes, I brought that just for you.
[55:50.360 --> 55:57.640] Yeah. So one of the thoughts that came and then gone and now is back again,
[55:59.320 --> 56:05.080] I was thinking about when we were talking about finding a good coach and going off references,
[56:05.080 --> 56:09.640] I do think that this is this is rooted in a bigger topic that we don't have to get into, but I do
[56:09.640 --> 56:16.440] think that we're in an interesting time in the lifespan of neurodiversity and ADHD and that it is
[56:17.400 --> 56:23.080] slightly distinct destigmatized enough that people are talking about it, but it isn't so understood
[56:23.080 --> 56:27.160] and completely destigmatized that people have completely different views of what it is.
[56:27.720 --> 56:34.280] Not just individuals, but even healthcare professionals think of ADHD very differently.
[56:34.280 --> 56:38.520] There's kind of from the extremes of like the medical model of here, your symptoms and here
[56:38.520 --> 56:43.720] deficits to the neurodiversity model of, hey look, there's all these different identities and we're
[56:43.720 --> 56:48.680] more beautiful and stronger together and obviously everything in between. So I think it's also really
[56:48.680 --> 56:54.200] important to take that lens into account because at this point there is no right or wrong,
[56:54.200 --> 56:59.000] maybe there will be in the future, it's just your personal opinion and how you view your ADHD and how
[56:59.000 --> 57:04.600] you want to view your ADHD. So I think whether it's finding a coach or any other healthcare provider or
[57:05.560 --> 57:11.160] just following people on Instagram either I think it's really figuring out what their philosophies
[57:11.240 --> 57:15.320] also are and the methodologies that underpin those philosophies because if you
[57:16.760 --> 57:22.040] believe that ADHD is a strong part of your identity and you want to have a good relationship with it
[57:22.040 --> 57:26.040] and then your first coach, I don't know, has a very, or healthcare provider has a very deficit
[57:26.040 --> 57:31.320] driven model that starts basically focusing on all of your symptoms. So this is not how we do it at
[57:31.320 --> 57:36.760] shimmer, but it starts focusing too hard on your symptoms, then you will end up in a very different
[57:36.760 --> 57:41.800] spot than let's say someone with a positive psychology background or a strength-based background
[57:41.800 --> 57:46.600] that immediately starts drawing attention to your strengths. And again, I think we're still at a
[57:46.600 --> 57:49.960] point where I don't think there's a right or wrong, I think it's just the approach that you want to
[57:49.960 --> 57:55.800] take and this is part of the reason why we started shimmer too because it's so hard to come to these
[57:55.800 --> 58:04.760] conclusions if you're just diagnosed like who knows, you know, know what you believe in yet and you
[58:04.760 --> 58:11.480] have maybe some hunches and so really if whether it's shimmer or not, but going to somewhere that
[58:11.480 --> 58:16.520] you trust where there is maybe a variety of practitioners and asking these questions and going through
[58:16.520 --> 58:21.560] this reflective process and also feeling okay to yourself and giving yourself the grace. If you get
[58:21.560 --> 58:25.720] it wrong or if you feel like there's a gut that you don't drive with your coach or with your
[58:26.440 --> 58:33.720] practitioner to feel okay with just leaving them and just going on to the next one, it's totally fine.
[58:33.720 --> 58:40.120] I think don't feel like you're stuck in the situation that you're in because you have the agency
[58:40.120 --> 58:46.360] to switch and make that decision. No, I love that. That's great advice and yeah, I was, yeah,
[58:46.360 --> 58:52.520] I have me thinking of something there, but I can't remember what it was. Never mind. Well, Chris,
[58:52.520 --> 58:58.440] this has been incredible. I do want to say thank you again for joining me here and yeah,
[58:58.440 --> 59:02.040] let's keep in touch if there's anything I can do for you. How could people find shimmer?
[59:02.520 --> 59:10.920] You can find us at Shimmer.Care, so www.Shimmer.Care or on Instagram, we're at at Shimmer.Care or
[59:11.640 --> 59:17.880] on my Instagram, I'm at ADHD.Crystal, so I'm sure Dave will drop some links in the show notes.
[59:18.440 --> 59:22.120] Yeah, I'll include all that and thanks again for being here.
[59:22.760 --> 59:24.520] Yeah, thank you so much. This has been so fun.
[59:27.240 --> 59:30.680] Hey, if you liked what you heard today, would you do me a favor?
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[59:37.800 --> 59:44.840] patron by supporting the show. You can advertise on the show. You can also record an audio comment,
[59:44.840 --> 59:50.840] question, or even email me a question that I can include in an upcoming episode and you can
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