PODCAST. Teaching, Employment, & Coaching Women with ADHD with Christina Coravos.

Today, we speak with therapist and ADHD coach Christina Coravos, who specializes in serving women and their careers, at walkwithchristina.com.

Embracing Self-Acceptance: Christina emphasizes the importance of self-acceptance in managing ADHD, particularly for women. Understanding one's strengths and weaknesses and embracing oneself fully lays the foundation for effective coping mechanisms, especially in the context of job applications and career advancement.

Clarifying Goals and Priorities: Clarity in setting goals and priorities is crucial for individuals with ADHD, including women navigating job applications, by focusing on the "what" before the "how," individuals can streamline their efforts and channel their energy towards meaningful outcomes, such as tailoring resumes and cover letters to highlight strengths and accomplishments.

Navigating Job Applications: Women with ADHD often face unique challenges when navigating job applications, such as effectively organizing and articulating their qualifications and navigating questions about ADHD. Christina shares insights into strategies for success, such as breaking down the application process into manageable steps, seeking support from mentors or career coaches, and leveraging strengths like creativity and adaptability to stand out in the application process.

Communication and Advocacy: Effective communication and self-advocacy are essential skills for women with ADHD seeking employment opportunities. Christina discusses the importance of advocating for accommodations when necessary and communicating openly with employers about ADHD-related challenges and strengths, fostering understanding and support in the workplace.

Seeking Support and Community: Building a supportive network and seeking community resources are invaluable for women with ADHD navigating the job market. Whether through online forums, networking groups, or professional organizations, connecting with others who share similar experiences provides validation, encouragement, and practical advice for overcoming obstacles and achieving career success.

Body Doubling: Dave was so inspired by discussing and then trying body doubling that he launched Wise & Shine for you to give it a try. We hope to see you soon.

Connect with Christina: Website: Walk with Christina.

• Transcript

  Yeah, well, I think you invited me because of my experience with ADHD. And you found me on the internet as an ADHD coach for women. And I discovered ADHD when I was an adult. My late 20s, I was running a tutoring center. And I noticed that a lot of my students that I worked best with, and we seem to be on the same wavelength, had ADHD. And then I went to graduate school to get my Master's in Counseling and became a therapist. And as I learned about the diagnostic criteria and read them in the DSM, I realized, wow, this is quite relatable. And so I started working with clients both at the tutoring center, and then also in my practice as a therapist, and then realized that I worked from my own direct experience best with women similar to me and in career oriented capacities, and just really finding ways to set up systems and environments and support that are a natural fit.

  1:13

  Were there commonalities that you've come across, in? In women typically, with AD? I don't mean symptoms, necessarily, I mean, more like their backstories or backstories.

  1:26

  That's interesting. Yeah. I guess many of the women that I met, were diagnosed after their children got diagnosed, they they were in their 30s or 40s. And then their sons or kids in school, were getting a diagnosis. And as they were meeting with the doctor and learning about ADHD for the first time, they realized they fit the criteria and genetic connections.

  1:52

  Yeah, it's interesting. I I tend to notice that a lot where parents with kids with ADHD discover yet they to have ADHD, it seems that seems pretty common. It's interesting. Yeah.

  2:05

  And actually, for myself, too, once I was already in ADHD career coach, someone in my family came out to me and said, Hey, never told our family about this. But I was diagnosed like 10 years ago and figured Christy that you would understand, and I was like, wow, I do. No wonder I always got along so well with you, too.

  2:26

  Yeah, yeah, we all seem to get along. Well, I've noticed that too. I was hoping that maybe make it to the conference this year. The big ADHD conference. Yeah, I'm

  2:35

  going right in a few weeks. Yeah. I

  2:37

  was hoping. I don't know if I'll be there or not at this point. I was hoping to just because Yeah, it sounds awesome. And, you know, yeah, we all tend to get along well. Yeah. And as far as Tell me a little bit about your backstory, like what led to becoming, you know, to studying to become a therapist and sort of what? Yeah, what that background looks like.

  3:03

  Yeah. It's funny, the different kind of spontaneous connection that happened. Yeah. I another, I guess, relatable or common story I've heard in the career path that people with ADHD I have some connections with as well. And in my early 20s, after graduating college, had periods of unemployment of kind of unexpected roles in retail and stem cell research and pottery and banking in website design in. That's like a cashier, just a bunch of different jobs, and was really trying to find something that fit with my strengths. And I thought, back in my childhood, I'd always loved playing school, I used to make worksheets, I even made standardized tests. There was one called the core of a school standardized test. And something I did in my free time. And my sister and her friends would come over and they thought they'd get to, you know, play dolls or play outside. And I was like, No, teacher, Christina, it's here you have this test to take and it had like multiple choice sections. And I ended up sending score reports and percentiles to my parents and their, their parents. And so, as I thought back about my teaching background, okay, I also was a classroom teacher, I realized that I liked the one on one connection and the energy that tutoring provided and so I started working as a tutor. And then from there, I became a team leader and then an office director. And so during that time, I was learning my own strengths and then also seeing a lot of the stress I guess, that students and families were under so to answer your question about I guess the therapy background to I was trying to integrate some of my own experiences and help families navigate the anxieties of high school landscape college applications. And I found that it did help me working with my students. But it also really helped me in my own career in communication and management. So, I, since I was now, after years of finding a way to enjoy my work in a way that was natural for me, I wanted to help other people do the same. It's

  5:33

  interesting that the teaching thing kind of stands out to me too, because, like, you know, as we spoke before, but like, you know, I was diagnosed this year at 50, with ADHD and, and so obviously, I'm still learning here too, but but I find it interesting with, with teaching, because like, I've done a fair amount of that, not in any sort of actual teaching, like a real teacher. But more like you, you reminded me of something when you talked about your childhood and teaching friends because I, my mom found this old computer printout now like dating myself, but like, dot matrix printer designed, I did a computer class for my mom and my brother when I was a kid. And I created like an invite, with a picture of a computer on it. And it said, Come to Dave's room at 8pm for your computer class kind of thing. You know, and it had a picture of Yeah, and so and I taught them things about the computer. And as I got older, I started, you know, I studied improv with Second City in Toronto, and started performing improv a lot. But I also taught improv and, and nowadays, I teach communication skills to companies with workshops and training and a lot of, you know, keynote presentations that I do as well as the speaker. So yeah, it's just interesting how that kind of connects is, as you know, I find like ADHD years are such giving people typically, and they like to share and they like to learn. So but to your different jobs to that's also kind of reminiscent for me, because it's not so much like what you want to be when you grow up. It's like what you want to be the next week?

  7:31

  Yeah. Yeah, I do. I do see that. And yeah, the teaching thing I've seen as a common thread to like when you find something that or when I found something that I learned, like my poor sister, I was learning stuff in school, and then I was just a couple years older than her and just testing her on it or kind of teaching it to her right away. Yeah. But just you know, wanting to share what is interesting and helpful.

  7:56

  And you're still Are you still in the Bay Area? I am. Okay.

  8:00

  Let's Los Gatos, California. And yeah, I think the variety in my current role has been has made it really fun, I still get to do some of the, you know, hands on, still one on one teaching, but also teaching groups sometimes. And then even you know, management is like teaching to, you know, helping the tutors, who are newer to the team.

  8:21

  Do you find teaching, like being out in that neck of the woods? You know, obviously, the, and having having done work? You know, I spoke on behalf of Google of Google for five years. So I spent some time in Mountain View, and in that in that area, but but I do find that a lot of both entrepreneurs and technologists. ADHD seems to be quite common in those worlds. And so yeah, what are your What are your thoughts? What are you seeing? You know, in the field? In the field,

  8:57

  I get news in terms of Yeah, who has ADHD? Who's maybe not in my little? Yeah, the tutoring center? Yeah. I mean, yeah, a lot of the innovators do I've also Yeah, I guess I don't know if I'm as involved there. I've kind of yeah, I've stayed a lot in the education field, I guess. And in like, the mental health field, though, I have been giving some talks at companies. I had one earlier this week. And so maybe from there, I'll start learning what's broader in the field? Yeah.

  9:31

  Can you share the company? Well, what were they Yeah,

  9:34

  they Yeah, I think so. Um, I was first databank. They hired me for a talk about I guess, ADHD accommodations and how to support team members with ADHD as part of their mental health affinity group.

  9:51

  And what were some of the takeaways some of the things that you were sharing there because this is really applicable to a lot of people listening who you know I either work with folks or who are themselves, you know, who have ADHD. So, yeah, any any thoughts that there?

  10:09

  Yeah, I mean, I think one of my favorite parts was that I was kind of giving an introduction to like how ADHD shows up? How do you get a diagnosis? So you're noticing I'm noticing some of the symptoms, and then ultimately, what do you do to create an environment that's supportive, and it was fun to talk about some of the things that I've developed over the years, or just, you know, done in my own life and practice and then to hear that other people have had the same stories, you know, even simple things to just like, oh, timers, and body doubling and visuals and, you know, taking breaks and yeah, there's some follow up questions too, about kind of how to, you know, communicate about it? That was kind of an interesting question. I don't have a clear answer on it for because I've seen mixed, I guess, results on when someone does have ADHD, how do you bring that up to your team or manager. And, because sometimes, often, they may not have the solution, even if they want to help. So then it's kind of back on you sometimes with your solutions.

  11:14

  That's something interesting, too, that I've been talking to a few folks about, which is nowadays, when you apply to a job, nine times out of 10, or probably 10, out of 10, you're doing it online. And when you apply to a job, now you get to a part of the application that asks you Do you have like a mental illness or something to that effect? And ADHD is listed in in that list of things? And you have the answers to say yes or no, or I don't want to answer I prefer not to answer. And so as a like, if I put myself in the shoes of a HR person, not to encourage discrimination, but like if somebody is hiring, and they they don't know enough or anything about ADHD, they may choose to not choose that person for an interview, because they said yes. And if they said I prefer not to answer that probably means yes, because why say that instead of no. And I was speaking to somebody about this the other day, and they said they put a big X through that whole section back in the day when they would apply to something, but because it's online, now, you don't have a choice to advance in the process without choosing one of those. Yeah,

  12:36

  I I appreciate this topic. And yeah, the power of relationships when you know, someone, and yet the requirements. It's part of the job application process right now that you can't really, I guess, get around it. I mean, even in my own life, I I heard from my psychiatrists that I had all the traits and could complete the assessment. But then I thought about, like, what are the real benefits of the diagnosis? And I think for there are many benefits to having the diagnosis. But I guess the two that came up for me were like, Okay, well, then I could get accommodations, or I could get medication more easily. But if I'm not planning on using medications right now, or if I'm already kind of setting up my own accommodations, is it beneficial to have the diagnosis? So because then kind of, as you said, what impact will that have in future? job applications or life?

  13:43

  Yeah. Yeah. Because, I mean, certainly, this isn't to like scare people off from applying for jobs because at the same time, many companies now many savvy smart companies, at least are, are hiring neurodivergent team members because of all of the great traits, great, great skills. Folks have, you know, being very adaptable, being very creative and things like that. So yeah, I suppose it is interesting in choosing whether or not to be diagnosed because for me personally, I suppose one level one aspect of this and this is also my understanding of what of what psychologists or psychiatrists look for in the diagnosis would be for you know, late diagnosed fellow why squirrels listening is, you know, is ADHD or is the potential for having ADHD, causing problems in your life, causing disruptions causing enough issues to be diagnosed?

  14:49

  Exactly. And when I was reading the DSM for the first time, I remember seeing the line about the symptoms have persisted in in a way that causes a significant impairment in Akkad. I'm like, occupational or social functioning. And so you might have all of the traits. But yeah, that I guess, final piece. Yeah, the impact.

  15:11

  So one of the blog posts that you wrote, or I guess, medium posts that I really loved was reframing your strengths. Oh,

  15:19

  that was one of the most popular. Yeah, things I've done in my workshops. Yeah.

  15:24

  Yeah. Tell tell us a little bit about reframing ADHD traits.

  15:29

  Yeah, it's funny to even hear the word reframe, because this is the way I've naturally seen things. So it's been, I guess, I realized, as I was working as a therapist, and a coach, that all of these traits that I saw as positive things, or neutral, had negative connotation. So I'll give some examples. A common trait that someone with ADHD might be told they have is that they're forgetful. And I see that as being very present. Meaning not stuck in the past being absorbed in the moment. And so I think it's great when my mind is clear. And I'm not ruminating or thinking about things. And I'm able to be be still. Yeah, and so I've, I've always thought of, yeah, forgetful. It's like, great.

  16:28

  Right? Well, you also think like neurotypicals are all are always talking about, like, you hear a lot in pop culture. You know, and this, this, folks are striving for flow, like getting into flow. And that's not a problem for us.

  16:49

  Yeah, exactly. Oh, man. hyperfocus. There. Yeah. And so yeah. Like, I never really thought that I should remember things. I'm like, oh, no, I definitely need to write this down. Oh, I need to set an alarm or I need to send myself an email. And so yeah, it's just such a fine, like, a lot of these traits are just natural and easy to work with. I'd like to share actually a few more. Yeah, please. Any other common ones? Oh, yeah, I think disorganized when I, I think that one actually maybe did stick with me a little bit. That, and I realized, like, Oh, if someone's disorganized, that simply means that they're spontaneous, or adaptable, or the system that they had before isn't a natural fit for them. And so it's like, they can create, you know, new things rather than be boxed in. I'm like, Oh, that's a great trait. And then, like restless, like, oh, this person is alive. They're energized. They're engaged, engage. Yeah. What are some of the other ones that people often think are like, negative traits? Or like, oh, yeah, I'm motivated, like, nobody's unmotivated. And I noticed this a lot with students and with clients, and even myself, it's like, everyone wants what they want. They're motivated to get what they care about. But well, the mother,

  18:08

  to your point about that, I think of myself as a kid in school, and I was such a pain in the ass, because I was a class clown to the teachers. But now reflecting on that, I know that I was that way trying to get laughs, which is something I've done through my whole life. But that laughter is a response. And that's a dopamine hit. Oh, yeah. Right. And so if you're not medicated, you're lacking dopamine. And so finding ways, healthy ways, hopefully, to get dopamine, then that's that, that accounts for why I love being on stages in front of audiences. Yeah,

  18:48

  yep, I enjoy that too. Yeah, the social the intensity of the speaking exercise, too. And I also think that whole you know, motivated or unmotivated or so you're not doing homework, you're going for laughs I think that people with ADHD are really good at focusing on impact and things that matter. And so they, it's easy, I can think of a student who was not attending classes, not completing assignments. And ultimately, like, it didn't really matter, because it wasn't having a significant impact. And they were in classes that weren't helping them toward the move toward the future they wanted to create, and so and they knew they could just drop the class and so but when there is a real reason or, or benefit, I ended up working with the student and they're now in like a new school and in a new program and what do you know, it's aligned with their interests, their desires, and their, you know, completing their assignments and showing up to class. So.

  19:52

  Yeah, do you have tips for people who have to do work? They don't want to do Yes.

  20:00

  So I mean, I deal with this all the time in my own life, the main thing that I do is I try, I tune into the reason, I guess, there's a few different things. One, I believe everyone is ultimately doing what they want to do. It might not, let's say it's nice if there's an example, like, I don't love cleaning up in spreadsheets, or like cleaning up my desk. So instead of focusing on like, I have to do this, I'll focus on I want this done. And sometimes that means I don't even have to be the one to do it. And people with ADHD are very creative about getting things done, or connecting with other people who like to get things done for them, at least I've noticed that and in my life. So I'm trying to think of something else that

  20:47

  so you're saying, like outsourcing or delegating everything, but also realizing

  20:51

  I ultimately never have to do anything that I don't want to do. Sometimes I'll also go to the extremes. And I'm like, you know, I don't want to sleep on the sidewalk. I would like to be able to pay my rent. And then suddenly, I'm like, Okay, well, the easiest way for me to show up that at work, you know, I already have that little system in place. Yeah. But then I might think like, you know, I think I'd like to make a little more than in a way that's, you know, easier. And so to really get to the extremes and identify, like, what outcome Do you want? Oh, and I also love this game to another game I play with myself when I don't want to do something. I have a test myself. And I say, like, Christina, do you have the guts right now to just not do it? And the moment I give myself that freedom of like, you know, what if I don't pay for my car registration, or what if I don't, you know, respond to this message, then I have the freedom to realize like, oh, you know, what, I don't want to get stopped by the police. Or like, oh, you know, what I really do like this person, I'm just kind of confused about what to say. So, you know, try so giving myself that freedom and that consequence of not doing it. Yeah, helps me shift into the authentic reasons for why I want it done. It also helps

  22:07

  to put things in perspective, too, right. Like, you know, I often, like a lot of the some of the training I do is in public speaking, you know, performance with, you know, teams and companies. And I say like, I'm not, I'm not here to teach you like brain surgery, or how to fly a plane, right? Like, like, if you screw this up, it's not the end of the world, like, don't worry, you know, because, yeah, I mean, you can make little mistakes, and certainly, and public speaking and things like that, like, if you night, you know, my kids are both ill my daughter, especially as more of a theater bug. And my kids both are musicians, so they both played band at school and stuff. And I say like, you know, if you hit a wrong note, with a with a band playing, the chances of it really standing out. And even if it does, people forget pretty quick, people are pretty forgiving pretty quickly too. But even in a play to like if you're doing a performance, and you flub a line or you forget your line, just say something else, it just keep going forward. And then you know, the audience doesn't know that you just picked a line out of the out of the air. And hopefully the other actors are good enough to pick up on that. And you know, the beauty of improv, I guess.

  23:25

  Yeah, and I just noticed, like, when I see somebody else make a mistake, how empathetic I am and how impressed I am that they like had the courage. And so the more I can see myself and like, Hey, you went for it? At least you did something or like that took some guts. That's just that helps the, you know, going for it. Yeah, I

  23:46

  think anything's that's it. Yeah. Yeah, no, no, no, I was gonna say that this is something that I'm noticing now to where I'm more, I've always tried my best to be empathetic, but I'm more I think I'm more empathetic now. To others, because I'm starting to suspect that like, all these people that I come across are people that I know, they probably have ADHD, and they don't even know. Or they know and they haven't done anything about it. But so, you know, if somebody you know, like, if I'm trying to build a relationship with a new friend, and they kind of ghost me for a while. I just now I'm, I'm thinking of approaching it that way, instead of like, you know, feeling all rejected and jumping into like, RSD and all these things. Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

  24:42

  the whole ghosting thing. It's funny how often people have told me like, Oh, I'm sorry to get back to you for a while and I'm just like, Matt was already out of my mind. Happy to see you again, or to hear from you. And so when I have those moments of like, Oh man, I got a little backlog like oh, I should start with I'm sorry. And like, you know what? Maybe they're not thinking of it either. Right? I do.

  25:07

  Yeah, it's my own narcissistic way. Why? Don't you know who? Who I think I am? Like, why were you thinking about me at every moment? Come on? What's wrong with you? So the women you see are typically what 30s? And 40s? Is that right? Is that a fair number? And

  25:27

  they're their 20s, too. But yeah, I think mostly women in their 30s and 40s, a few men every once in a while, if they're good, a good match, working on the same things that my skills are a match for, but um, give women? Yeah, I think in the ADHD fields, you there are a lot of male psychiatrist and male, I think just diagnosed in boys when they're younger, historically, and so to find someone who's a woman who has experience with it

  26:01

  can be beneficial. I know. I like being with someone, it's like, Hey, do we have some shared experiences?

  26:11

  Yeah. I mean, certainly as a Yeah, as a naughty boy syndrome, or whatever. It was considered back in the day. And I think yeah, I think a lot of people are still are still learning about that, um, what are some of the challenges you face in your business in your, in your like, you know, in your practice and

  26:31

  challenges. The first one that comes to mind is I'm trying to structure myself and make the same systems that I help my clients with. Yeah. And then you also mentioned, I think, RSD, rejection sensitive dysphoria. And so I, yeah, the perfectionism, the anxiety. A lot of the women and myself were, I guess, I guess, diagnosed first with anxiety before they realized that ADHD is a more, I guess, useful term or more specific term, rather than just generalized anxiety. So

  27:14

  well, people don't realize that too, that anxiety is a symptom or I can never remember the word Cormo core morbidity. Is that it comorbidity? Yeah, yeah, that that anxiety is actually and depression can be a symptom of ADHD. And I was diagnosed with anxiety before ADHD as well. Yeah.

  27:39

  Yeah. So yeah, thanks, think working with the emotional side. And so that's one of the things that I like to include by having small groups as well, because being diagnosed as an adult woman, and then not knowing anybody, or only knowing about the, the male or kid symptoms that are more familiar, it can be isolating. And so it's really liberating and comforting to know that. I guess one of the main things is just like the house stuff is often challenging with ADHD to like, be maintaining tedious maintenance and cleaning specs. And so we when we share our tricks for different routines are the emotional exhaustion that can come with that. That's helpful for everyone.

  28:39

  What are what are some of those tricks to help with that?

  28:45

  Well, I guess I often like someone else who helps me with it. And actually, also for the past few years, I've lived in like furnished places and small places. And so having small manageable spaces that I keep clean so that I'm not distracted, and really valuable. I also don't do a lot of cooking. That's a common one that comes up like I'll buy food. But I won't spend a ton of time preparing it. And you know, I have my little bag that has, you know what I need in it, and I have things set up in a particular way on my desk. And so, yeah, having an environment that just makes sense to my brain and getting other people to help out with some of the basics, whether it's friends partners.

  29:32

  Yeah, yeah. And my son and I were watching he, he put on some YouTube video. We were watching the other night of like, these ridiculously expensive houses. And there was one that was just like, epically ridiculous and I think it was like 150 million or something insane like that. And, I mean, it was pretty badass. I mean, a lot of it I was like, I don't I need a basketball court in my house like this one. But but it also has like a wonder Park thing, which was pretty cool. I love a good waterpark, but, but seeing it I just commented to him, I'm like, that place would be so cool at first, and then so lonely most of the time. Yeah, like, 99% of the time when nobody's visiting you and you don't have people over. And you're by yourself, it would be so lonely.

  30:26

  Yeah. And tying back to your question, it's really nice to have friends who have different things that they want to share. Like, I don't have a basketball court or a pool recline, kind of do have a pool, actually. But yeah. But yeah, connecting with, you know, people who want to share resources. That makes it alive. A lot nicer. Yeah, no, that makes sense. I don't have to maintain it all myself.

  30:54

  Yeah, that that too. Yeah, it takes away that takes away. So what you're saying is like cutting, maybe cutting back? Or? Or, you know, or almost even downsizing? Or, or, yeah, just just having what's manageable and what, what's really needed, which I think it's important for anyone really went yeah,

  31:16

  and you can be part of like a gym or a pool place. Or you can have colleagues at the office who help out with different things. And so it's I like to use, you know, my own strengths. Yeah, be responsible and take care of what I need to. But why not let other people who really enjoy that part?

  31:35

  Yeah. What about the with group group group sessions? Are you doing that virtually or in person, I

  31:42

  am primarily virtual right now. And one of the main reasons for that is that it's helpful when people are my clients are in their own environment. And we can set up things immediately and directly, whether that's, you know, screen sharing your calendar or, you know, communicating with colleagues or friends. Whereas, in person, to be in an environment, and then to have to, like, you know, remember and apply things I can be less impactful. So the most of my, my sessions or groups are online, though, I do actually have a group that's starting in person next month.

  32:21

  Yeah, I find, certainly, as it pertains to like loneliness and things like that, that in person tends to work well. Yeah. Yeah. Is that something you found?

  32:32

  Yeah, I mean, my own life, I have a lot of in person contact. When I'm going to the tutoring center or meeting up in person, with my students. And so I definitely think that's an important component, especially just from the stimulus perspective to for ADHD. If I'm just like, you know, at my desk, and there are other people around, it can be more challenging to be, you know, prompted and inspired to get moving on the next project, even if it's fun.

  33:02

  Yeah, makes sense. Hey, what are your thoughts on having ADHD versus being ADHD? Interesting, I, this is something I was delivering the press, I have a new keynote I'm doing called the route down, which is partly about my own diagnosis with ADHD. There's more to it than that, but and as I was speaking, and delivering it, you know, I announced I have ADHD. And then I started thinking, if I've been, if my, if I've always had ADHD air quotes had, then am I ADHD? What or have you run into that? Like, as far as language goes, and what are your thoughts? Yeah,

  33:51

  having versus being and I guess, the identity component, and I know comes to mind first is like, I've just skirted around that issue by being an ADHD coach. So I guess the diagnosis isn't required. And so I see it more I often use the word traits as well. So like, if, if you have certain traits, and there are certain perspectives and strategies that work for you to help you get what you want, or, you know, live life in the way that you want to, then let's do that. And so I guess I'm the having versus being I guess, I think of it as more as like, Who do you want to be and what do you want to create? And so I haven't, I don't know if I have many? A strong feeling about having versus being presently.

  34:52

  But there are days so like, I want to be neurotypical. Yeah.

  34:56

  I guess what I would ask them is like, what do you think neurotypical is?

  35:02

  That's a good question narrowed, so what are

  35:03

  you trying to, like accomplish or create? And is there a way to do that naturally the way that you are?

  35:10

  Yeah, that's a good question. I'm trying to think of an example of that. Because we I mean, we did talk a little bit about, you know, outsourcing or delegating the things that you're not great at.

  35:22

  Yeah, there's an intense piece of self acceptance here. Yeah, imagine, you know, someone who is neurotypical doesn't have to think about, like, it might just be obvious for them to do things in a linear way. Yeah,

  35:36

  I don't know. I mean, I think there's self acceptance is certainly a core part of life in general, regardless, because I mean, everybody's certainly different. I mean, there's, there's general groups, you could say neuro divergent, neurotypical, whatever, but But obviously, there's introverts extroverts, and you know, the list goes on. So accepting your own. And everybody, you know, different people have different strengths and different weaknesses as well. So you know, wishing that I was, you know, physically bigger or faster, or whatever, whatever it may be. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah,

  36:14

  I do election, I love this question in this topic to get into, like, what is it that I want to do? Or that you might think someone who's neurotypical can do? And then like, how? Yeah, I think we can still do it. And it's funny. I actually, I was talking with a friend the other day, and they, I was describing someone was like, Yeah, I don't think they're ADHD. My friend was like, that's like a compliment, isn't it? When you say they people are HD? And I just was like, Yeah, I just see so many, so many positives in it. So,

  36:50

  but there's so I mean, there's so much misinformation out there, especially like on like, tick tock and places where, like, ADHD has become like a verb, like, I forgot my keys. So, you know, I was, you know, or, you know, I ADHD today or something. And, and yeah, I mean, you, you, you do have to be diagnosed in order to be to know you have ADHD or that you are ADHD.

  37:20

  Yeah. And that's why I think the identity piece is is kind of risky. And it can be, it can. I know, it could hold me back if I thought all the negative perspectives on ADHD were true about me. And so,

  37:38

  but it's not a walk in the park. I mean, it's not I mean, you know, we often talk about ADHD strengths as like, you know, superpowers and things like that. But I mean, it's also it also is debilitating sometimes.

  37:56

  Yeah. It's, it can be very hard to do things that seem like they should be simple. Yeah.

  38:03

  Yeah. So what do you tell somebody who is facing challenges like that? Who has,

  38:11

  we find out what it is, I mean, what staying in the abstract is often can be confusing, and debilitating. And so getting that clarity of what you want. Like, when I was in a different environment, and like had COVID. Last week, I got really behind on some messages and started getting overwhelmed. And I felt like it should be easy to like, you know, read and reschedule and do a lot of like, tedious cleanup tasks, and even fill in time sheets and all that. And it was really hard to pull myself to do that. And so I don't know, maybe other people would find it. Easier to do that. But then I also see like, well, maybe those things really weren't the highest impact and when I am clear on what I want. Yeah, I think that shift into focusing on what before how I think I've seen a lot of people with ADHD focus so much on the strategies and like the how like, oh, how do I do this? How do I do that? And it's like, well, what is it that you want to aim toward? Because often, you can come up with a better way that maybe it's easier for you? Hmm,

  39:26

  give me an example of that.

  39:30

  Like, I guess in preparing a presentation, it's very easy to like I just gave one on, I guess, accommodations for students. And so when I was thinking about preparing a presentation, and I was like, Oh, I could give all these like different strategies. Like how long and then you can just kind of stay stuck there. But when I realized like, Hey, I'm here to show tutors, ways that they can help their students be more successful. That it's easy to put together the the timing the breakout rooms, the types of strategies. So you're thinking first, it seemed overwhelming, like, oh, how do I do this? How do I prepare for this? Yeah,

  40:12

  yeah, you sort of envision the results, like the actual like, What the what, what you're trying to, this is something I run into where. And I think it triggers self doubt, and impostor syndrome, sometimes to where I don't think about the effects I'm gonna have, like, I know, I'm a good speaker. I know, I'm a great speaker, because I get the like, I have the feedback. I have 150, frickin LinkedIn recommendations.

  40:39

  Like, look at those again, no, yeah, it's yourself. No, I

  40:42

  totally, I totally do. But But again, it's, I think about it from the client side, when in reality, it's, it's the audience. And, like, if they have a great time and lots of laughter, and they come away learning new things that they can apply, then then I've done I've been successful. And and so that's kind of the the positioning I think, but also to your point about like, and what we're talking about earlier to like, with the presentation examples, a good one, because it's very near and dear to me, is what I'm spinning my wheels on creating a new presentation, let's say, I shift into a different method. So for example, I might write it out as a script, like write it out as a story, like just just write what I want to say. And so I almost like write it out that way, and then build the slides kind of backwards from that. Or I have like a storyboard template that I that that says blank of slides, like blank slides with notes. And I print like 10 pages of those with like, you know, several per page, and then just start like, I'm a terrible artist, but I'll like sketch like a stick figure of what I would envision to be on that slide, and then sketch it out that way, and then build it. After that, yeah,

  42:15

  the more quickly, I can create a visual for myself, then I have something I can respond to. So I love your example of like a stick figure, or even just like the story of like, this is, you know, the end result, I often think of like the done state, like what does done look like? And actually, that's something I've seen with a lot of my clients who are overwhelmed at work, and they have like, a lot of different projects. And it's like, well, what, what are you trying to create? Do you have clarity from your manager? Do you know what the, the what you're aiming toward here? Because if that's not clear, then you can just have no infinite creative, overthinking? Yeah, yeah, about what to do.

  42:56

  Yeah, I have. I wrote about this in my book and new business networking, but I also talk about it in presentations, and some of the communication training workshops that I do with the tea. I go through an acronym for listen, and the T stands for test your understanding. And so it means like, like, repeating the information. So if you give me a task like Dave, I need you to deliver the report by 9am on Monday morning, repeating the information by saying like, so what you're saying. So what you're saying is you need that report, 9am Monday morning, is that what you're saying? So, and by saying that you then think, Okay, well, I trust Dave, Dave knows, because he just repeated it. He's good. But by repeating it out loud, I also retain that information, it helps me remember it because I've said it out loud. So I've tested the understanding. And then and then I could say like, so what you're saying is Tuesday, 10am. Okay, got it. And you're like, No, no, no, no. 9am Monday morning. Yeah. And that's, that's where you can correct problems before, before they occur.

  44:05

  I love that example. That was honestly, I think one of the best things that I learned in graduate school was the value of reflecting back what someone said, and how not only then do I understand what's been said, but I can be corrected. And then there's the I just have that agreement. And this is also so important to at work and in meetings to send a follow up email, like okay, my understanding is this is the action item. Like this is you know, what I'm planning to do let me know if it's not right. Yeah, so

  44:43

  yeah, that's especially helpful too, because like, for me, personally, might my email. Well, there's certainly ways I could do this. Probably better, but luckily, my email has a pretty nice search engine built into it. So I could search for keywords into RMS to remind myself, so I can go back to the email and say, okay, yeah. So like, this isn't what I outlined. Christina replied. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. Now I know. So I can go back and remember what it was that I needed to do like to your point, like you're recapping that information, and then it's in the email, so you can find it later to go back to? What was that other thing? Oh, yeah. Right.

  45:24

  Yeah. So nice to have it in one spot with some visual reminders. Oh,

  45:29

  yeah. Big time. Big time. Yeah, what I'm gonna be mindful of time here. But tell me tell us a little bit about body doubling, because that's something that comes up a lot. And yeah, we'd love to share some more information about doing

  45:41

  that man body doubling. So I have it twice a week just for myself, just hopping on a zoom call, and somehow doing the work with someone else in the room, whether it's physical or virtual, it's so much easier than when I'm just like, alone, trying to drag myself to do something. And so to hop on a call and say, Okay, I'm going to work on my taxes, or I'm going to respond to some emails, or I'm going to clean up my kitchen, or I'm going to work on that spreadsheet. And then to know that someone else has like, heard that. And then at the end of the call to share some wins celebration and accountability on what happened. It's just, it's so valuable. I yeah, I have you use Bondi doubling before?

  46:30

  Not really, I am certainly not since I was diagnosed with ADHD or ever heard of it. So I have a couple of friends who are both working on their books. And I always love this idea where they did the Pomodoro Technique of like, you know, 20 minutes working five minutes off. And what they would do is with Zoom, 20 minutes would be spent writing. And so they would just be writing, no talking. And then every 20 minutes, they would have five minutes to either share what they just did, or talk about the weather, or whatever. And once that five minutes was up, get back at it for another 20. I know the timing isn't, isn't probably ideal necessarily for for folks for why squirrels listening maybe. But tell me a little bit more about like, how you how you plan, like, if you were to propose a body double session with somebody, without them knowing what that is? How would you explain what to expect? Hmm.

  47:39

  Good question. The there are so many companies actually that offer like online body doubling. And I think my clients maybe even introduced me to this at first. And so yeah, body doubling is, you know, having the presence of someone else who who cares or knows what you're doing can somehow just inspire. And I noticed this all the time with like my students. You know, even if I'm, you know, I have a math tutoring session. But somehow when I'm there, they'll like, you know, open their planner, they'll start looking at the textbook, they'll start working on problems and maybe just need a little, you know, intention and encouragement. But don't necessarily know that. Yeah. So

  48:25

  if you're, if you're working with a colleague, what does that look like? For body doubling isn't an hour long, just silently working on your webcam? doing your thing? Is it two hours? Is it 24 hours? Like, what is it exactly?

  48:39

  I mean, you can set the time. I mean, my sessions are usually 15 minutes. Yeah. And, I mean, sometimes I'll just invite a friend in the room, like, at my office, like if we both have like work to do. You know, we're working on some spreadsheets, presentations, emails, like, Hey, do you wanna work together on stuff, and it's just having someone's presence there is really great. I signed up myself, too, when I was like, trying to study for a test, it was really hard when I was getting my, I guess, like therapy, law and ethics exam. I realized, like, if I set up body doubling sessions with my friend, then I wouldn't want to let down my friend and like, not show up. And once I can get myself to show up, I'll often pull stuff off that I don't even expect. And so I would, you know, complete my practice tests. And then ultimately, because I have those sessions scheduled, and I just worked on my practice test during those times. I took the real one and passed.

  49:36

  Is there danger in in proposing a body double session with a friend and spending that hour talking about what you did last weekend?

  49:48

  That is, I think, why these other companies that offer body tumbling sessions and like co working sessions they'll call them have been popular, or why people will hire coaches. Because yeah, I often yeah, having a having a friend who, you know, cares about you and wants to chat might not be the most effective, consistent support system for your. Yeah.

  50:12

  I mean, when you describe a body double service, and now that you mentioned that I do recall seeing one right away that makes me think of like, back in like AI, or like early, mid 2000s. As social media was kind of getting popular, there was a website called Chat Roulette. Have you ever heard of this? Well, I

  50:35

  do remember that.

  50:37

  And so Chatroulette was amazing. It was just such an interesting thing. Because so basically, you know, you would, you would go to the website and see someone's webcam, they knew that you could see them, and you would see them for a minute. And then there'd be like, a little timer, and then it would switch to someone else's webcam. And so it was, and they could see you. So you would be looking at each other for a minute. And, and or two, or whatever it was, but you couldn't like communicate beyond that. And inevitably, somebody with a penis would ruin it for everyone. Typical. And and I remember showing this to colleagues at work. And of course, that's like, the third video was a dude. stark naked. And I was like, Oh, please don't call HR. So how does that compare to? Because I don't,

  51:36

  I never thought of those as similar because I guess there are companies like, like, focused, or I guess, like focus may or the other ones. I mean, they're just, and sometimes they'll have like a professional facilitator guides you into, like, what the project is that you want to complete during that time. Okay, that's interesting. So yeah, may have like a little video chat for like, a few minutes, and then you put yourself on mute and work for whatever the set time period is. And then check in at the end. And then there's also accountability, because you have names and it's not random and yours and signed up. And you may have developed relationships with the host and your colleagues. So it's

  52:16

  interesting, okay, and everybody's fully clothed.

  52:21

  All the ones I've been to.

  52:23

  Okay, well, that's good. That's good. All right. Well, to be mindful of time here, and because I just went to weird places. Once you need to. Tell us a little bit. Are there any questions that I didn't ask you anything that you wanted to share? Before we wrap, wrap up our conversation here?

  52:46

  I'm just thrilled that you have this Dave, honestly, it's really great to talk with you and to connect with people who are finding what works for them. And you know, sharing all the great things and all the challenges that come with ADHD. So I really appreciate your your courage and your leadership. Well, thanks for making this happen.

  53:07

  Thank you, and how can people get a hold of you, Christina? How can they learn more about what you do and get in touch?

  53:13

  Walk with Christina, you can find me on the internet. You can email me or Facebook, Instagram. I would love to hear from people who resonate and who I might be the right fit to help.

  53:28

  Cool. So walk with christina.com Right? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Great. Great. Well, thanks so much. This has been fun. Appreciate it.

  53:35

  Dave. Have a great rest of your day.