PODCAST. Productivity, Mindfulness, and the SIPSLOW Method with Dr. Tina Schneider, Ph.D.

In this episode of ADHD Wise Squirrels, Dave engages in an enlightening conversation with Dr. Tina Schneider, Ph.D., the owner and founder of Monarch Counseling. Dr. Schneider shares valuable insights into ADHD, relationships, communication strategies, and inclusive leadership. The episode also touches on the SIPSLOW method, which Dr. Schneider introduces as a framework for improving working memory and long-term memory.

Episode Highlights:

• Understanding ADHD and Relationships: Dr. Schneider discusses how ADHD can impact relationships, including challenges with memory and communication. She shares personal anecdotes and strategies for navigating social interactions effectively.

• Communication Strategies: The conversation delves into the importance of understanding individual communication preferences, both in personal and professional settings. Dr. Schneider emphasizes the need for inclusive leadership and accommodating diverse communication styles within teams.

• Combatting Loneliness: The discussion addresses the loneliness epidemic and its impact on individuals with ADHD. Dr. Schneider explores the importance of social connections and offers strategies for building and maintaining meaningful relationships, especially during challenging times.

• Productivity and ADHD Management: Dr. Schneider provides insights into managing ADHD-related challenges in productivity. She discusses practical strategies for organization, time management, and task prioritization, tailored to Wise Squirrels.

• Improving Working Memory with SIPSLOW: Dr. Schneider introduces the SIPSLOW method as a practical approach to enhancing working memory and long-term memory. She explains how individuals with ADHD can benefit from intentional memory recall strategies, such as using post-it notes and setting specific goals for memory retention.

  • Sensory

  • Input

  • Processing

  • Short-term

  • Long-term

  • Output

  • Working Memory

• Inclusive Leadership: The discussion explores the role of leaders in fostering inclusivity and understanding diverse communication needs within their teams. Dr. Schneider emphasizes the value of open communication and setting clear expectations to support individuals with ADHD and other neurodiversities.

• Practical Strategies for ADHD Management: Throughout the episode, Dr. Schneider provides actionable strategies for managing ADHD symptoms, enhancing communication, and building stronger relationships. The SIPSLOW method serves as a practical tool for improving memory recall and cognitive function.

Conclusion: Dr. Tina Schneider, Ph.D., offers valuable insights into navigating relationships, improving communication, and fostering inclusive leadership in the context of ADHD. Listeners gain practical tips and strategies for managing ADHD symptoms, enhancing memory recall, and building more fulfilling connections in both personal and professional spheres.

About the Guest: Dr. Tina Schneider, Ph.D., is the owner and founder of Monarch Counseling. With expertise in ADHD, Dr. Schneider specializes in providing counseling services and support to individuals, families, and organizations. She is dedicated to promoting neurodiversity awareness and empowering individuals with ADHD to thrive in all aspects of life.

How to Connect: To learn more about Dr. Tina Schneider and Monarch Counseling, visit Monarch Counseling website. For inquiries and consultations, you can reach Dr. Schneider via email at T.Schneider.phd@gmail.com. Connect with Monarch Counseling on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter for updates and resources.

Stay Tuned for More: Don't miss out on future episodes of ADHD Wise Squirrels! Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform to receive notifications and access to insightful discussions on ADHD, neurodiversity, and personal development.

• Transcript

  0:00

  Tell me a little bit about your your background. You know, I know you've you've had, what 25 years experience in the field of psychology. Yeah,

  0:08

  started right after high school in 1995. And I volunteered for a local hospital with kids that had autism spectrum disorder was just called autism at the time. And it was so interesting because I walked into the room, and there's two other people and myself and eight to 10 kids walking around doing their own thing, having their own different types of issues going on. And it was just so fascinating and fast paced. I wanted to stay there, but it was just so intriguing. And just for the small amount of time I was there in the summer, I wanted to keep working with that population. So I actually, in college at Wright State in my practicum, I went on to work on bass with a family. And then I switched over to a home program, doing applied behavioral analysis working with kids with autism. So that's where I got my start. And a lot of those kids probably also had ADHD, there wasn't a lot of discussion of diagnoses and things like that, but pretty sure that was going on to. Then I ended up doing the ABA for a while, five or six years, and then I had two or three jobs at a time sometimes of the years don't add up. That's why in school, I decided to go into different aspects of perception, psychology and doing different coursework like that. And I really found I really liked working with people. So for my master's degree program, I went to counseling at people with learning disabilities, and people who were gifted, and so exceptional children covered both ends. And that was really fun. Dr. Diane Frey was my advisor. And she's amazing. Over at Wright State, then for my work experience, after that I did work in group homes for a bit, I worked in a center for kids with autism, worked in some other home programs, and then started my PhD program. And that's when I started my stint at the nursing facility environments and did that for a number of years as well. And then working for a group private practice after I got licensed and then now on my own with my own group private practice.

  2:34

  That's right, Monarch counseling. Right? Correct. Correct. Where, what are some of the differences that you've you've experienced in treating? You know, obviously, the audience for why squirrels is late diagnosed adults with ADHD? What are some of the differences you've experienced in, in treating, you know, children versus adults?

  3:00

  So it's really about the identification of the symptoms and how they appear. So I know there's a lot of discussion about how come certain people weren't diagnosed when they were younger. Interestingly, when I was working in the nursing facilities, there were people that told me they were diagnosed when they were younger. However, I didn't have that on their medical record. And because they were adults, I wasn't allowed to give them a neurodevelopmental diagnosis, because that was supposed to be from childhood. So even when I was in my master's program, we were told people grew out of ADHD. And I said, that doesn't make sense. I challenge that. And they're just like, well, that's the way it is. And so it never made sense to me. But I really couldn't treat anybody that wasn't diagnosed as a kid. So we had to go with other things, and they couldn't get medication either. With kids, they're mostly identified, it seems when they are involved in multiple environments, so people that aren't homeschooled, because if you're not having difficulties in school, where other people can observe that in that environment, it's not going to be noticeable if people are also being homeschooled by their parents. That's the other group parents and school system and social settings. So a lot of my people that get diagnosed when they're older, maybe they came from a homeschooling environment, or maybe they had different backgrounds didn't really acknowledge the diagnosis of mental health conditions. Other times they were anxious and shy and scared about getting good grades in school. Quite a few people I've worked with are gifted. So if they're not struggling in school, and they're not outwardly behaving in a way that's disrupting the class, then they're not going to get tagged for hey, let's have an assessment of some kind.

  4:55

  That makes a lot of sense, especially from the homeschool perspective because yeah, even, you know, parents, they don't know. I mean, they don't know their kids compared to like other kids, when they spend so much time with them like they don't, they may not realize, right, right. Or there may be some sort of cognitive dissonance as well. But if they know that the likeliness of a parent or parents having ADHD when their kids have it as well, that's one of the most interesting things I've learned. Can you speak to that a bit, maybe about? Yeah.

  5:30

  So one of the statistics I often cite in my evaluations is how the CDC has indicated that when one biological parent is diagnosed with ADHD, there's a one in three chance that biological offspring will also have ADHD. If both parents have ADHD, and it means diagnosed or not, that there's a 68% chance biological offspring will have it. Then there's further evidence more recent to support that siblings of an older sibling who are diagnosed with ADHD are also even more likely to be diagnosed after, you know. So the oldest one may or may not. But everyone else that follows is more likely to get diagnosed, especially if an older sibling has already been diagnosed.

  6:16

  Ah, interesting. Yeah.

  6:18

  So the other factor that comes into when you're talking about families and genetics, if it's kind of the normal, say, more than one person has ADHD in the family, they already know how to manage with that, because they've been doing that, right. So the other thing is, when there are parents who are teachers, or educators or work with people with disabilities, or myself, I wasn't diagnosed till I was 41. And I remember the assessor kind of asking me like, well, you're saying these things are significant? I'm noticing that a little bit, but it's, it's there, but it's not as much so and I said, Well, I'm a psychologist. So you know, I know how to take care of these things. And it's only when the symptoms get to where they are difficult to manage and affect your overall functioning in two or more environments is when the diagnosis ends up happening. So a lot of times, there's no noticeable difficulties. Or if kids are living at home with their parents, and they have a background in knowing how to manage these things. It's only when they leave home and are on their own for the first time, that they have to figure out how to do these executive functioning type things and planning without someone reminding them, and they might not even have the awareness that they were getting as much support as what they were getting at home until they leave.

  7:39

  Yeah. Yeah, that certainly rings bells. For sure for me. Yeah, it's it's. So when you were diagnosed, I 41. Like what led what led to that for you personally.

  7:54

  So COVID, actually, and I can speak to that. I mean, so I was starting an ADHD certification training online, I was trying to get ready for my switch to my private practice and doing all these things. And I think it was March 17 was last day I was in the office, if that was a Friday, and then I had to start working from home and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, now I have to get updated on telehealth and how to do all these things and pause everything else that was doing. For me, contextual learning is really important. So not that I didn't feed the dog. But I almost forgot to feed the dog because I would do a series of activities before I leave to go to the office. And I wasn't leaving anymore. So all of my steps were out of whack. Working from home, I also didn't get a physical break from home. Being in the home office, I could step outside and take a walk in the neighborhood. But I felt like I didn't get the break that I needed the transition time that I needed, like I got from being in the office and driving home 30 minutes the cooldown time that I needed to transition between being at work and being at home.

  9:10

  That's interesting. I haven't really heard that come out much. And speaking of folks, can you speak a little bit more about that, that that that importance of transitioning time?

  9:19

  Sure. Um, so I take a while to process new information that is brand new for me. And when I'm in a headspace like today to be talking to you on the podcast, I had to kind of mentally prep for that what's going to be happening. I also like to take my days and say, you know, these are the days I'm in the office. And then here's other days that I do other types of appointments. Here's when I do laundry and things like that and I kind of have to get in the mental mindset of this is what I'm going to be doing and prepare for it kind of like what I did for sports when I was in high school if that makes sense. It feels like when you're going from one thing to the next to the next for myself anyway, that sometimes I don't have time to make that switch or enough time to mentally prepare for the next activity, even if it's something I've done numerous times and have significant experience

  10:15

  is that where time blindness kicks in as well.

  10:19

  So timeline is is more associated with the whole thing about Time flies when you're having fun. So if something is more enjoyable if you actually perceive time as going faster, and if it's boring, it feels like time is dragging. So one activity that I like to do with families, when I'm working with kids, and they're talking about time blindness, I'm like, Okay, let's do something. So I'll set a counter on my phone, just to count up. And I'm, like, stop this at some point between now and the end of the session. And I'm going to have everybody Guess how much time has passed? And it's just interesting to hear the discrepancies among the family members. Okay. That's

  10:58

  interesting. Yeah. So yeah, and that's something. Yeah, it's something certainly I experience a lot is, you know, and it's interesting too, because like, for a neurotypical, and in even in like pop culture, you know, you hear flow, like everybody refers to flow where like, you want to get in the zone, and you want to get into flow. But at the same time, you know, if a flow is, or this time blindness, you know, if you're working on something that you're enjoying, great, but like, wait a minute, the days over, and you still have all these other bills to pay or emails to write or

  11:38

  write. So it's actually an aspect of executive functioning. And when you're really interested in something, and people talk about going down, the whole of like, I'm on the internet. And suddenly, it's hours later, and I really meant to be doing this thing. Instead, we follow where we want to go, instead of saying like, okay, what are we needing to do next and be more mindful about that. So what I try to teach people in being mindful which mindfulness is intentional, it's in the moment, and it's non judgmental, is to say, like, I'm making a choice to be on the phone for two hours. And I know this because I set an external timer. And I'm noticing that I stopped the timer now, after so many minutes of my break, and I'm choosing to go beyond that. Or I'm not. So it's a choice. It's not judgmental, but it's not going to be mindless in that suddenly, it's two hours later, and you don't know where the time went. So teaching that kind of thing. Are you using,

  12:39

  like physical timers for that? I know there's some interesting ones out there.

  12:43

  Yes. So for kids timed timer is really good. There's online stopwatch.com. That is something that a lot of schools use, and it's free. And you can pick different timers to use. A sand timers have been researched as not exciting enough for kids. So although they might like them at first, they're not going to be beneficial. can always go with an egg timer as well. But some way to externalize the time. So you can see the amount of time passing the time timers actually have a red bar, where you can see that increases and decreases based on the time. There's a few other timers for kids where an activity starts and stops and so green when you're supposed to be doing the activity yellow when you're getting close to stopping and red when the time's up as well. And

  13:31

  the Pomodoro Technique is pretty popular to write for, for folks. Yeah,

  13:36

  so I actually tell people to use that technique, but not necessarily 25 minutes, especially for ADHD. So there's some things I can only do for five minutes. So I ask people to get a baseline for an activity that they want to have more focus on. And if they're like, Well, I'm doing this for five minutes. Before I get distracted or feel like I'm zoning out or wanting to do something else. Am I okay? Let's say your goal is three minutes. Then you take a two minute break, maybe stretch, get a cup of coffee, walk around, listen to a song really quick and then come back. Because consistency in that kind of way is most important. And I think the 25 minutes for the original Pomodoro technique isn't necessarily for people with ADHD.

  14:21

  Yeah, what about as far as like, you know, things for mental health in general. Like, you know, I'm getting better at managing my time as it pertains to that like meditating in the mornings spending some quiet time offline in the morning and then like taking the dog for a walk, things like that. But yes, it seems for me at least as soon as I get into my inbox, I'm like squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, all day. And then it's like, Oh, my God, my family's home from work. School and it's like, that's not good.

  14:56

  Yeah. So when there's something that I Want to do and usually dive down the rabbit hole, I usually scheduled something that I cannot miss that I have to be on time that I must be at. So then that's a way that it stops me. So if I'm not gonna stop this event that I've already pre scheduled, well, the other thing I do is, I say it's okay to procrastinate really, as long as you do it in a smart way. So if I've got reports to write, and I like to procrastinate on them, I might set up a luncheon with friends to happen at six o'clock. And if I tell people, I'm going to have something to you by 7pm, I'm gonna have to have it done before I go out, and I even tell my friends, I'm writing this report. And when I'm finished, I get to go with you guys. And if not, then I don't. So with rewards. And some people kind of confused, this was punishment, but it's the threat of losing something works better for people with ADHD. So if you don't do this, you won't be able to do this.

  16:01

  What about other reward, I recall, hearing this, and I did it for a time and I forgot to keep doing it. But I thought it was really impactful, which was anytime you have like a small when to like grasp your arm, like almost like a self hug anyway. So

  16:19

  that's more of attaching like a tactile feeling with it. I haven't done that. But it makes sense because it's incorporating the senses with a success, right. And instead of getting emotional about it, yay, let's celebrate. It's so awesome. Because that's that's riding on the emotion. So if something doesn't go very well, then you're like, oh, it's not going well. So to just say I've had a success, this is wonderful. This is what happened in the new grab your arm is a way to stay in the moment because you touching your arm is like, here I am right here and now and you're not getting caught up in your emotion. So it's a way to do that in a mindful way as opposed to getting on the emotional roller coaster.

  17:04

  I've been finding, speaking of like, some of the being online and like I'm a pretty early adopter. And a lot of social media and content have kind of been online forever. And so the the internet, and even pre Internet has been a lot of you know, where I've done a lot of my work over the years. And I've been finding, I've recently changed medications and started seeing a psychologist who has adjusted because she commented that the medication I was on earlier for my GP was just too low a dose to really have enough effect for me, and I wasn't sure what was working if it was working or not. Uh, but one thing that I've noticed now I'm very mindful also of the dangers of social media, how, you know, I'm pretty plugged into addictive technologies and how these things are designed them, and why they're made the way they are, and algorithms and all that stuff. So I'm already aware of the dangers associated with like internet addiction, or, you know, that kind of thing. But one thing that I found, and I'm also kind of jaded by the state of social media, as you know, with algorithms and advertising and just garbage online. But I've been finding that I've spending time, less time on social media, and I commented commented to a friend about this, noting that I've been thinking a lot less about social media since changing medication, and realize, Wait, maybe, maybe part of it's possible that I that I have some form of addiction to the internet, and that the meds and the therapy are actually helping me curb that without realizing it. Any thoughts? Yeah,

  18:58

  so I actually switched medications and what I was given at first, it was not the primary choice by my physician because the other one wasn't covered by insurance. But one thing that I heard Dr. Brown talk about the one that develops the executive functioning attention skills, he said in one of his lectures, if you feel like you're just hyper and have enough energy to do things, and that's it, and then it's done. And that's how the medicine works for you. It's probably not the best for you, you probably need something different. So the medication I changed to I really don't feel anything but suddenly I'm able to focus concentrate less forgetful. Less stumbles and trips on things and less dropsies and things like that. So the thing is, is like when the medication works, and this is why, I think when Dr. Russell Barkley talks about people that get on medication When it's deemed as appropriate for that person, the reason why it helps us because it helps activate with the dopamine. If it's gonna leave it there, you know, you don't need to chase anything, you don't need to chase substances or the internet or whatever gave you pleasure, whatever made you feel good, that's quick to access and gives you a reward immediately. So you search something on the internet, find what you want. And it's instant reinforcement, right? That the medicine kind of makes it like, yeah, we're doing this for you with the medicine. But here's some other important things you might want to look at that you were saying you wanted to do remember?

  20:38

  That makes sense. Yeah, it does. It does. What about your your sips slow method? Tell me about this. This is pretty cool.

  20:48

  Sure. Yeah. So this was something that I started with in 2019. And I started asking a series of questions, I was kind of just all up in my head. And then recently, a couple years back at the International ADHD conference, I presented this and what it's based on is sensory input, Sensory Learning, and which styles apply to you best, to best improve working memory. Working memory, is taking in information, processing it or coming to understand it, putting that from short term memory into long term memory, and then being able to access it at a later time. How I came up with this was I was thinking about how we were taught to do testing and assessment in my PhD program. And we were always to watch the verbal and the nonverbal behaviors. And I just kind of noticed that certain people might have talked to themselves when they were answering questions, reading the question out loud, or they might fidget with their pencil or something like that. So I started to explore how I learned best. And then I thought of a time when I was in grade school, were one of my teachers. And I was not sure what was going on here. But she says, Okay, everybody that likes to read and take notes, come over here. And I was in that group, who likes to put together projects and present you come over here. And so she had different spaces throughout the room. And this was a science class, and she was like, Okay, you guys get chapters one, two, and then three, and four, and five, and six are present Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, she sat in the desk. On each of these days, while our classmates presented, not only did I learn my information, so very well, but because I was interested in my classmates presenting, I actually looked and paid attention to their stuff to because I was actually interested in what they were saying because they were my peers. But that kind of solidified like, I think there's something to this. And then I did further research to say like, yeah, people do this. I actually do the SIP, slow interview with all of my patients, because I want to learn how to present information to them, so that they can remember it. So anyway, the acronym CIP, slo s is sensory input, and the P is processing, S is short term, and then L is long term memory. And oh is output and W is working memory. So you mind if I ask you the questions for CIP slow, so then people would know how it works? Yeah, please. Okay. So Dave, if you were to learn something brand new, let's say, putting together a bookshelf. In what way or ways would you like to receive the information. And this could include having somebody tell you how to do the instructions, it could be reading the directions, referring to pictures or diagrams, watching a video, figuring it out by just putting it together yourself, interacting with a small group learning in a specific type of environment or some other way?

  24:04

  I would say probably either somebody showing like somebody somebody explaining the steps, or or video images tend to help. Okay,

  24:17

  and then if you were to process information, so this is providing meaning and understanding to new information, if you were to think about math class, if you were learning a new concept, what type of skill would you use verbal repetition to yourself out loud or thinking about the instructor and repeating the information, writing down the information, choosing to do one or more the math problems that focuses on the new concept and then doing that, using math manipulatives, like objects or some other hands on material to externalize the information, discussed or problem solve with a small group or some other way

  24:58

  probably I mean, the small group stuff also, I think is always there. So I think even previously, I would say small group is part of that. I would think in this case, I find often that I, I tend to remember information better when I repeat it. So like, whether orally like whether whether I say it out loud, or whether I write it down, but like repeating it tends to help.

  25:24

  Yeah, I think it's important that you stated both, I actually worked with someone who needed both writing and repeating it out loud. And when this person was working on remembering something in my office, so I could show them how it worked. Forgot to say it out loud when they were writing it multiple times, and was like, I didn't remember it. I said, What didn't you do? And they weren't sure. And I said, you didn't say it out loud while you were writing it. So let's try it again. And then this time they remembered it. So yeah, sometimes multiple steps are definitely important. So if you were to transfer the information to long term memory, some people continue to do the verbal repetition or any of those other things, some people choose to physically do something. So if you were to think of a code that you might need to remember to get inside a door, but you weren't able to write it down. Some people might imagine their fingers going over the keypad, or they still might write down the code using mnemonics, or something else. So how would you make sure you were to remember that at a later time,

  26:26

  my iPhone, I always make a note, I make a note on my iPhone, like something like a gate code is a great example. Because I actually just had to do this. We've had our boat at the same slip for a year, and I couldn't remember the gate code still. And I had to look it up on my phone. So adding a note helps.

  26:48

  Would you do that physically or auditory? When you're putting in the note?

  26:53

  In that case? I would put it in physically.

  26:55

  Okay. And when you are recalling it later, do you see the numbers in your head? Or do you actually see the screen of your phone? What do you recall?

  27:05

  Usually I'll see the screen on my phone. I think I've I've done exercises in the past to sort of envision numbers like characters like seven, it's like a hockey stick Canadia. You know, things like things like that. And that helps me remember the numbers. Sometimes when I think of like images associate like an eight looks like a snowman, again, Canadian. So I've done that in the past to help me, but I don't do that often. But so I would say my phone, I guess going back to the end, okay. Well, actually,

  27:41

  the mnemonics that you mentioned in the visuals, and the images are also important, because I think if you have the time to do that, you would probably do that most of the time. It just probably doesn't allow for that. Always. Yeah. So how would you like to be assessed? And this is the last question, auditory format like question answers, multiple choice essay, a project, a research paper, a group project?

  28:11

  Probably, like assess probably. What was the first option like in your story?

  28:17

  So that a Tory? Yep.

  28:18

  So that would be like an interview kind of format? Or? Yeah, I'd say that.

  28:22

  So based on your answers, if I was looking at what you currently do, it's interesting, because you have a lot of people showing and explaining to in the podcast, new information, and you get to see videos, and you get to interact with others in a conversational kind of way. So you're doing that in your work. So you're also learning while you do this. The processing with a small group is interesting, because some people say I do best alone, but other people need that interaction. I would also think you might also work on contextual cues where if other people around you are doing something, say, say you're in grade school, and they're like, Okay, I have a clean up after snack, but you kind of zone out, then you might look around to see what everybody else is doing. Like, oh, they're doing this, and that's what I'm gonna start doing. Does that sound familiar at all? Yeah, for sure. Okay. So with the short term to long term memory and the codes, sometimes it's important for people to do multiple things, and I think this might work for you with doing something physically by itself can be helpful, but you also have it to references a visual later. But if you needed to just remember it in your head, you probably do try and make associations with visuals, images, possibly mnemonics, along with being physically involved in something in that physical involvement can also include writing notes or taking notes. So that's that yeah, and auditory. That's what you do here with the podcast too. So I think like what you're doing right now with your career really aligns with your life. Earning style in that kind of way.

  30:01

  Oh, that's awesome. That's good. That's good to know I with some of this stuff like, you know, I wrote a book a number of years ago called new business networking and, and part of it when I talk about remembering people's names that you meet, right, and I talk about this and some of the communication workshops and presentations I deliver. I talked about repeating the person's name several times. So it's great to meet you, Tina. So Oh, tell me Oh, how did that make you feel Tina? Like, oh, what do you do next? You know, and then, you know, it was great to meet you, Tina. Well, no. But by saying it several times, it helps you like, it helps you retain that information. So, right. So I've always tried to practice that. It's amazing, though. Like, I find it very interesting, reflecting on my own career, and the content I've created. You know, whether it's blog posts, books, podcast, podcasting, whatever it is. So much of the stuff that I've advised people on was really, not to say it doesn't work for everybody, because I think a lot of it would, but of the, the, the tips and skills and things that I tried to teach her things that I needed myself, before I knew I had ADHD, I think it's part of the reason why I've been able to kind of remain, okay, after the diagnosis, is, it's just already having these ways to kind of navigate my adult life, if that makes no sense. No,

  31:35

  exactly. So a lot of the adults that come in, will say, Hey, this is the field I'm working in, and they might not have even known what the environment was going to be. So I tell people, when they're looking for jobs, or if they're looking to change, it's like, think of a time when you did your best, and you didn't have to put a lot of effort towards it. And it was fun, and describe that to me. And it's like, okay, describe to me your current work situation. And if there's quite a bit of opposites, like you need to move around and interact with people, and now you're at a desk answering a phone, it just different types of things. And who well, I thought I was gonna be doing this and this. And that's not the way it happens. So the impulsivity nature of taking a job when you're offered it or not sitting on something and thinking about for a little bit before you make a decision happens quite a bit. And so what we perceive something's going to be like when it's not actually that and then you're like, Well, I'm already here. And it's not that bad, right? Or I think I could get through or it pays me enough money. And really, you know, that's probably not going to be the best environment for you, you probably won't be happy,

  32:41

  reflecting on my own work. And the things that I do that, I'd say the worst part of my work is that I work alone. And I'm very extroverted. And so I enjoy talking with people and meeting people. And I don't do that when I'm at home, working alone. And, excuse me, the flip side of that is when I'm speaking at conferences, and delivering presentations, or workshops, and networking, because I know that's my best work. Because when I'm like standing on a stage, and I've got the audience learning and laughing and having a great time, after speaking, of course, I have lots of great conversations with people from the audience as well. And being on stage for me. You know, my experiences with improv and performance. I know now, knowing what I know about ADHD that it was the dopamine that I was receiving from the audience. On stage it was like a massive amount of dopamine because everybody's laughing and applauding and, and as I said, like working for myself in at home alone, while with Peggy, my mini Ozzy. But like, I've shared this before in the show, but you know, and especially during, like, these days, where my kids are now both teenagers one's more introverted, one's more extroverted, my wife is very introverted. And so and she's a school teacher and a librarian. So she deals with everybody, right, like kids, parents, and, and faculty. So when she gets home from work naturally, she just wants to go to the bedroom, close the door and read a book and have quiet, which makes complete sense. And even for the biggest extrovert, it makes sense for that because she's dealing with chaos all day. So I get that and then the kids get home and they're teenagers. So they don't want anything to do with me now. Like they get home their clothes, their bedroom doors, one's probably gaming and the other was watching tick tock. And so it's just me and the dog again, when everybody's home and I'm and I'm like, wait, but so during being being who I am, you know, during the pandemic, especially I was I wrote something online about it. Like, you know, there's so much information and out there about introverts and and how to support introverts and how to, to, you know, cater to them. And I've always been very mindful of this as well in running events and networking myself. And you know, I wrote about networking, and supporting introverts, but at that time, I'm like, okay, introverts. Listen, it's time to help your extroverted friends. Like it's time to reach out as much as it pains you sometimes it's, it's now it's time for the introverts to reach out to their extroverted friends to check in with them. And I think it's also plays a part. And it's part of the reason why one of the topics of the route down of this keynote presentation I'm doing right now, and some of the writing is around loneliness, it being the epidemic that it is, and Vivek Murphy's, you know, Surgeon General has has written and talked a lot about this. About, yeah, like, how it applies to loneliness. And so I've kind of rambled here. I don't know if I have a question there. But what are your thoughts up?

  36:07

  So with loneliness, and actually, boredom that's been researched as the number one factor for relapse for drugs and alcohol. So when people are bored or lonely, when you talk about reaching out to extroverted friends, I mean, most definitely, because I'm a mix of both. So it's like people can appear extroverted, but maybe they still feel lonely. And that's quite possible. When it comes to ADHD, and you're asking about rewards and reinforcement. I set up an extroverted event for myself as a reward, but also tell myself I can easily just take that away as well. Because usually the stuff I don't want to do involves me having to be introverted while doing it. With mindfulness to, it's really important, when you're working with other people, or just talking to other people, there's what people say and do externally. But then there's also what you notice, that could be going on internally. And if there is a conflict between what you're saying and doing on the outside and what you feel on the inside, that's probably going to contribute to more feelings of depression or anxiety because it's incongruent. So the number one thing I tell people is to try and be congruent with who you are throughout. And that's probably going to be really beneficial for you. Depression is more about thinking about the past. And anxiety is about thinking about the future. And if you're in the moment, and I've got a little fidget here, it's a little dinosaur rubber fidget thing. Holding on to that looking at it, it's pink with black eyes, I'm not in an emotion when I'm in the moment. So anytime you feel anxious or depressed, and you need to center yourself, it's okay to have a little coin in your pocket or have a necklace that you grab on to, you know, something like that, to bring you back to where you are out of your emotions, and just take a deep breath in and out to just bring yourself back. So it doesn't always have to be sitting and meditating for hours on end, it can be walking in the hall or just holding an object, you know, using your senses. Yeah,

  38:21

  that's great advice, I think with with Yeah, with me personally with my with, I think mindfulness has come for me personally from meditation practice, like a guided meditation practice. And that's taught me some about, about the idea of mindfulness and, and also like reframing, which is something I didn't know the word for. And I wrote a blog post a while back, that I call like perspective, and it was more like changing your perspective on whatever. Whatever the scenario is, that is being that is negative. And the the example I use in the route down and in that blog post is during the pandemic, especially I was I was feeling Yeah, I was feeling kind of crummy. So I decided to go to like a local park. There's this beautiful park in Nashville called Bradner lake. And it's like, you know, the lake and you know, beautiful trees, and it's a trail and blah, blah, blah. And so I went for this hike on a Saturday afternoon, and I was feeling really bummed out and just kind of dark and, and then I saw these parents with their kids, and their kids are kind of frolicking around on the leaves, climbing trees and doing their things. And I started reflecting on my kids and how they used to want to go with me, they would jump in the car eagerly when I told them let's go to dread Radnor lake. And it started making me feel worse because I started seeing I started reflecting on this and now my teens don't even want to do that anymore. And and then in a moment I thought Oh, wait, hold on. First of all, I should be feeling joy because I had these experiences with my kids and that I didn't neglect them, I brought them on this trail with me hiking. And so I have photos to prove it, like I have these great memories with them there. And I also should be feeling joy because these kids with their parents are also now experiencing this. And so I started thinking a lot about that. And ultimately, I did, I felt joy, I felt happy. I was like, What am I doing? Like, why the hell am I thinking negatively? Right? In this moment, when I should be celebrating, I should be feeling really joyful. And so I turned it around in my mind. And again, I wrote a blog post about it about perspective. But realize, like, what the language I understand now and correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand it's around reframing instead, in a moment. Right.

  41:05

  Right. It's thinking about something differently. Yeah. So with reframing and cognitive behavioral therapy, which one of the very first things that I teach to patients is like, there's a thought. And then there's an emotion associated with that. And then there's a behavior associated with it. And the classic example is, you know, Suzie Q walked by me in the office today and didn't say hi. And then what are my emotions? Susie? doesn't like me, Susie, ignoring me. I didn't, I must have done something. And now here's what I'm gonna do about I'm ignoring Susie forever, stuff like that. Yeah. Or a different perspective of what else could that be? So we're using a reframe within that Susie might have been really busy, Susie might not have seen me. Maybe she's got a lot going on right now in her life. What am I going to do now? I might check in on Susie and make sure she's okay. So you can use a reframe in the context of considering alternative perspectives, I think of that as what we think about a situation is just a hypothesis that may or may not be correct. And so if the emotion attached to that is something other than neutral, to consider some other possibilities. Yeah,

  42:27

  I love that. That's a great, that's a great example, I ran into something years ago, where, you know, I'm a, I'm a people pleaser, like, I'm such a stereotypical ADHD case, it's insane, like the like, well, first of all, getting back to what you just said, I, knowing what I know now about ADHD, it's actually already helping me now be more mindful, in that the people that I'm communicating without in the world, could very well have ADHD. And, and maybe they're not even aware of it. And that would explain some so an example here. And because I want to be friends with everyone, and, you know, there was a, there was a guy that we were, we met up for coffee a few times, and I really, you know, we enjoy each other's company, and just super nice guy. And I thought, like this guy, and we were kind of shared interests and blah, blah, blah. So I was like, Oh, this guy would be a great, great close friend. Like, you know, I wasn't thinking about it that deeply. But I noticed that like, he never reached out to me. And it was always me instigating getting the call getting together for coffee, or talking or whatever. It was always me reaching out to him. And I started resenting that thinking like, Well, why is he why is this all one sided? Does he not want to be my friend? And I actually, like, eventually texted him like, Hey, I haven't heard back from you in a while. You know, if you want to ever hang out, let me know. But it was something kind of blunt prop, you know, it wasn't rude or anything or aggressive, but it was probably blunt enough to put him off to be like, What the hell's wrong with this guy? But yeah, so any any thoughts to that or like, relationship building friendship building for folks with ADHD or not?

  44:26

  So my closest friends are ones where I might not see them. There's somebody I didn't see for seven years. And my spouse and I met up with her because we went to college with her for undergrad. It was like, we were crying and laughing so hard because of all the funny stuff. It was like nothing ever changed. So a lot of my close friends are the same way. It could be the out of sight out of mind. So those people that misplace things unless they can see where they're at kind of thing. If people aren't close to them and proximity and proximity determines a lot of people was relationships, you just might not be in close proximity to them, whether it be online or in the workplace or something like that. So it could be out of sight out of mind. And so I always think of it something like that. Or if it feels like too much pressure, like, oh, gosh, a friendship, that means that we have to remember all the holidays or birthdays and this that and that. You can set it out at the beginning, like, Hey, I'm not one to like, get gifts for people, or you just kind of say how you do things. And they can either accept that or not. Listen, I don't have a lot of time. I know, in my PhD program, I had to tell people, I'm not going to be around as much right now, because I'm shifting my focus and the people that were left on the other side, when I finished, were the ones that were left. But I know I lost some people for the very same reason they couldn't reciprocate that as much anymore. So I have a lot of friends that are just similar. So we all accept each other for that. Yeah.

  45:57

  And it's interesting, too, with my, like, my childhood best friends, the guy like the group of guys that I grew up with. Yeah, they're all in Toronto. And I was just back there a couple months ago. And but every time we get together, it's as you described, I mean, we're like laughing our heads off. It's like, no time has passed. And you know, and I know, they're my best friends in the world. But they're way over in Toronto, and I'm way over here in Nashville, and social media. I'm very much convinced. I mean, there's certainly benefits of social networks like Facebook or whatever. Like there's certainly benefits. But I think, I think, well, I'll pick on Facebook here, but I think it sort of, I think it fools us into thinking, we have proximity. And I think it's the proximity, and like actual touch, like hug or high five or whatever. There's something there about the physical touch, and also about how I think it seems that people are close proximity wise or not through social networks, because we see them in our feeds all the time. But if we're not like really reaching out much and actually having any substantive conversations or interactions, I think mentally it feels like I'm there. But when I dwell when I think about it enough, I realize like, wait a minute, like they, we haven't really conversed in years, like I'm not talking about my childhood friends, but like anybody else does, right? Yeah. Yeah.

  47:32

  So it all depends on whether physical touch is something that's important in your relationships. So there's some people who are like, Oh, I'm not a hugger, or whatever, people just like to hear someone's voice. So it all depends on the level of that in the importance in your relationship. So some people do feel just as close to people who are online, and some don't. So it's just a spectrum of preference. So it's, it's good that you recognize the importance of that. And it's important to communicate that, like, I need to see my friends from time to time and, you know, yeah,

  48:06

  but it makes it it makes it more difficult. And I mean, we could talk for a long time about, about building relationships and friendships, because yeah, like, you know, as I mentioned, this this sort of loneliness epidemic that's going on. I mean, it's just factual that as you get older, it's harder to make friends. And it's, that's just the way life is so. Yeah. Well, I want to be mindful of your time. Are you doing okay, on time right now? Yes. Okay. Yep. I just want to be respectful here. Yeah. Any other any other topics or things that I didn't ask you about that you'd like to talk about? Oh, sure.

  48:42

  So with the sips low, and you were talking about relationships, one of the things of improving working memory and long term memory is so that people might intentionally choose to remember things about people they meet. So I'm the classic case of I go to a party. And I'm like, if I don't introduce you, it's because I don't remember their name. So feel free to go ask.

  49:05

  I laugh because my wife knows the My wife knows this routine. Like, if I don't introduce the person to my wife right away. She knows to say, Hey, I'm having her what's your name? Like, right? Oh, sorry. And then they say the name Bill. And I'm like, oh, sorry. Hi, there. Yeah, this is Bill. We have a whole routine. So Sorry, go on.

  49:23

  So what's interesting about this, I have to carry around post it notes in my pocket. Or if I'm in my office building, and somebody's like, meet someone. So if I don't come up with something to remember their names, some kind of way to remember it. I forget it. And so I have to write down their name. I have to say it to myself. I have to say it out loud. And so I kind of set the goal of I'm going to meet one or two new people and I put down something in my phone like this is Joe they like Pittsburgh Steelers or something like that, instead of trying to remember everybody so I set goals around some people that I think I might want Want to connect more with later? But with communication in families with kids with adults, if everybody can figure out how people best learn? And then keep that in consideration when you're communicating? Oh, do they like auditory? I might send them a voice message instead of a text, I hit the microphone instead, I might speak that, or are they more responsive with emails? Or do we need to be face to face to have this kind of conversation, and just take that into consideration and communication just improves in the families, and also considering this with school environments and accommodations. So the book that I'm working on is associated with describing this method. And then the specific recommendations I make for people of all ages pertaining to whatever environments they're in, based on Sensory Learning strengths. I think a lot of recommendations are very general, if somebody just says, we'll just get a journal, it's like, well, that would work if you're a kinesthetic hands on learner who uses text and needs to see to read it. But if you're a project based kind of person, you're not going to be journaling. And so to consider the strengths in Sensory Learning for anybody is really important in that way. Yeah,

  51:19

  you touched on a good point there too, about, you know, I'm thinking more for adults, and I'm more in like the workplace, but being I suppose, as a leader, you know, of a department or a company, you could be, you could find ways to, you know, ask your team members like how they prefer to be communicated with or, you know, and then and then you strive to do it that way, so that you're aware of their preferred communication techniques, it's not to say that you, I mean, obviously, you're not going to be able to like write an email and a voice memo, and, you know, like, smoke signal, whatever it is, but you're not gonna be able to do it all. But but you may find that, like, if you manage us, a team of five people and like 90%, prefer voice, you know, that may be a good thing, or there may be a way to like use, like a transcription of that voice for that for that other person that that prefers reading, or, you know, any any thoughts to that? Yeah, as it pertains to like communicating with a team. Yep.

  52:24

  So exactly. I would offer that up in communication at the interview. And maybe you ask the management team, like, hey, how often are we going to check in a lot of times, people with ADHD, whether or not they disclose that to their bosses or managers need more frequent check ins? So you might say, How often do we check in with each other? How are we going to do that? And then you say, I like this, how do you like that? So it's just a conversation. And that really helps. Also, to be able to communicate deadlines that have deadlines that are hard deadlines. can't just say, Oh, just get to it whenever because that doesn't work for people with ADHD. But I also don't think it works from anybody really, if it's kind of that lacks, I guess, with Zoom meetings and things like this, I remember telling my kid because she's a hands on kind of learner, she goes, Mom, we have to sit here during COVID. And listen to these lectures, I said, you have to be on video. She's like, now, it's like, okay, I was like you have laundry to fold right? As like, that's kind of mindless, right? So she would listen to the lectures and fold her laundry because she wanted to be engaged in hands on activity. So the incorporation of fidgets if you can use those if they're quiet, and they're not disrupting other people, that's kind of moving or having a separate piece of paper where you're doing your little doodle art while you're listening. Just because you might not be making eye contact and you're doodling doesn't mean you're not listening. So to communicate, these kinds of things are give each other walking breaks, or just say, hey, if anybody needs to get up and leave, just do that quietly, and just let everybody do that, you know,

  54:03

  yeah, it's almost like being if you're in like a leadership role. It's, it's taking that initiative to be a more inclusive leader, you're more accepting of others, other people's communication styles, you know, like making sure that they're comfortable and that they're aware that, you know, Hey, it's okay, if you prefer to communicate this way, then they do it that way. You know, just making sure that it works for for everybody. Yeah, yeah, my brother drives me crazy. He lives in Switzerland. That drives me crazy to a lovely place. But he, he records audio messages to me on WhatsApp. And it absolutely drives me crazy. And I've said it to him numerous times, like Dude, I'm not gonna listen to these to the point that I don't anymore because he rambles on for like three minutes about nothing. And I'm slowly The offended by it too, because I'm like, Look, traditionally when you record a message like this, it's on an answering machine of self. Right? And it's you're only reaching the answering machine after a failed attempt at reaching that person. They weren't home. They weren't available. So you're leaving a message. In his case. He doesn't want to talk to me, because he would have called me instead, he just wants to record some, some thought. And I'm like, screw that. Like,

  55:31

  anyway, but yeah, interesting.

  55:35

  It explains our relationship really well, too.

  55:37

  I know, with my parents, because I seem to be long winded with them that I told them straight up, just let me know when you need to go. We're just we're just really honest. It's like, Hey, I got other things I'm doing today. So I'm gonna go. It's just we're openly honest about that. So

  55:53

  yeah, yeah, I'm definitely that way too. Yeah. I'm gonna ramble here forever. So until that point, this has been tons of fun, Tina, of course, how can people get a hold of you and learn more about what you do? Sure.

  56:08

  So website is monarch counseling, O H, my email is T dot Schneider, S C H, nei D r.phd@gmail.com. Also have Instagram for monarch counseling, LinkedIn, Twitter, and I'll respond mostly to email first phone calls don't usually work because phone calls if I'm in sessions with patients, I'm typically not going to be answering the phone. So email is best. Yeah,

  56:43

  I live in I live and die by my inbox. Like it has to be like if somebody if I have a message with somebody on LinkedIn, like messages or Facebook Messenger or whatever. I always like, take it to email because that's where like, that's my brain on. That's where it all lives in my inbox. I can search it and find it. Otherwise, I forget. So yeah, well, I'll

  57:07

  make sure to do that. Yeah, yeah, please.

  57:11

  All right. Well, this has been tons of fun. Thank you so much. I really do appreciate it.

  57:14

  Thanks for having me, Dave.