PODCAST. Cognitive Diversity and Emotional Intelligence with Sandra Clifton.

Unlocking the Power of Focus: Overcoming ADHD Challenges.

Today, we speak with Sandra Clifton, a board-certified educational therapist. Sandra runs Clifton Corner to help adults, athletes, artists, and highly sensitive persons (HSPs); she also works with students of all ages at Sensitive Students.

Understanding ADHD: Beyond the Labels

Sandra began by emphasizing the importance of looking beyond the labels associated with ADHD. She stressed that every individual with ADHD has a unique story and set of strengths. Rather than viewing it solely through a medical lens, Sandra advocates for a strengths-based, talent-focused approach to ADHD.

Embracing Curiosity and Compassion

One key takeaway from the discussion was the significance of approaching ADHD with curiosity and compassion. Sandra encourages a deep understanding of the individual's story and context. It's about reading between the lines and recognizing the sacred text of each person's life.

Sandra's Journey: From Education to Emotional Intelligence

Sandra's journey into the world of ADHD coaching and emotional intelligence began with a certification in life coaching. She shared her transformative experience working with the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence (YCEI), where she collaborated with teachers and principals to implement emotional literacy programs in schools.

The Heartbeat of Emotional Literacy

Sandra emphasized the importance of emotional literacy, especially in educational settings. Creating a safe emotional environment is crucial for learning. Emotional literacy equips individuals with the tools to understand and communicate their emotions effectively.

Tips for Self-Awareness

When it comes to self-awareness, Sandra recommended two powerful tools: reading and music. Engaging with literature allows individuals to participate in the making of meaning, seeing themselves in the characters. Music also offers a unique avenue for self-exploration.

The Power of Imperfection

Sandra echoed the idea that embracing imperfection and focusing on the process, rather than striving for perfection, can be liberating. This perspective applies to various aspects of life, including creative endeavors, problem-solving, and personal growth.

A Glimpse into "The Bear" and Beyond

Sandra and Dave also shared their thoughts on the TV show "The Bear," emphasizing its unique style of filmmaking and storytelling. They explored how such artistic experiences can enrich our lives and provide new perspectives.

Looking Ahead: Supporting Parents with ADHD

As the conversation wrapped up, Sandra expressed her interest in returning for a future episode to discuss strategies for parents with ADHD. This topic would delve into how parents, particularly those with ADHD themselves, can navigate the complexities of parenting with compassion and understanding.

Books Mentioned

• The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk.

• Atlas of the Heart by Brené Brown.

• The Element: How Finding Your Passion Changes Everything by Sir Ken Robinson

• The Hidden Life of Trees: What They Feel, How They Communicate – Discoveries from a Secret World by Peter Wohlleben.

Connect with Sandra Clifton

If you're intrigued by Sandra's insights and expertise, you can connect with her via her websites:

• For adults: SandraClifton.com

• For students: SensitiveStudents.com

That's a wrap for this insightful episode! We hope you enjoyed this journey into the world of ADHD with Sandra Clifton. Stay tuned for more engaging episodes on a wide range of topics that matter.

Thank you for joining us, and remember, there's power in understanding, embracing, and celebrating our unique journeys!

Disclaimer: The content provided in this episode is for informational purposes only and should not be considered a substitute for professional advice. Always consult with qualified experts regarding any specific concerns.

• Transcript

  Dave

  You were a high school teacher. Is that correct?

  Sandra

  I was that is correct.

  Dave

  God bless you. Thank you. Because I was a high school student with ADHD, undiagnosed. And I can tell you right now I have a lot of apology letters to write. So, tell me a little bit about how your work as a high school English teacher, drove you to begin begin exploring and leading to your your coaching work with ADHD?

  Sandra

  Well, and what I want to track back and say is, maybe there's some educators who have the desire to write some apology letters to, we know a lot more now than we did then. And one of the things I say to my clients in sessions is, on behalf of all adults, I apologize. And they look at me and they shake their head, and they say, It's okay. And I say, Well, you know, actually, it's not okay. But I, you know, I think that's to answer your question. When I was teaching high school, I just, it was almost like, there was an invisible shingle outside my classroom door. That said, Clifton counseling, you know, and kids would show up for a variety of reasons. Sometimes it was for help with the content, right, or the delivery of their assignments. I would say a lot of the time, they just really needed someone to talk to, and someone who would hear them and see them and affirm where they were, without an expectation attached.

  Dave

  Hmm. And that's, that's huge, because I know that you sort of built in executive functioning skills into what you were teaching, without really realizing it. Is that right?

  Sandra

  Oh, I realized it. Oh, you didn't realize it? Oh, I mean, okay. I didn't know it was called executive functioning. But I absolutely, you know, I needed it for me. I needed Monday's to be, you know, for example, with my freshmen, they always walked in and saw the new vocabulary words, which were also they made me teach spelling to freshmen, but okay. So, which were also the spelling words, and they were also going to find those words in the reading they had that week. And they knew on Fridays, we'd have the Friday quiz, you know, and I, that was, in the old days, when, thank goodness, I saw, I always call my kids, I saw my kids, at the same time, every day, I got to see them each of the five days of the week. And so the, you know, the organization, I will call it have that old fashioned system supported, I think executive functioning much better than, but I you know, I had to have all of these systems and structures for me, and then I would teach them how, what I was doing and how I was chunking. And, and I didn't call it that, of course, I learned later it was called chunking, and scaffolding and planning. But I really had to, I really had to break things down. I can't imagine having not done things in that way. Because that's how I knew my my kids would be successful. And I would always say we're a team. You know, I would say, you can call me Miss Clifton Missy or coach, and they would look at me like I was crazy.

  Unknown Speaker

  Did they call you a coach or,

  Sandra

  you know, I would have loved that. If they had I had I was raised by a dad who wanted a boy. And he he taught me to love sports. And what happened because of that is i i love the spirit of competition. I'm secretly fiercely competitive and and I wanted I wanted my students to succeed. And so I've always had an affinity with athletes, also artists on the other side of the spectrum, but I really didn't feel as if if my students were not doing well. Our team wasn't winning. And that was what wasn't just hard for me it hurt. Yeah,

  Dave

  I mean, you want to see the results of your work, right, like the positive results. And and obviously they they did those positive results, right. I mean, it's,

  Sandra

  well, I wanted more than that. I mean, I've always been accused of having very high standards or standards that are too high. I just didn't want results. I wanted them to find themselves. I wanted them to discover what mattered to them. I wanted them to have their own to realize that learning is this path that will take them to whoever they were supposed to be. And that and that what we were or, you know, what we were doing in class was only geography, that, but it was it was a way to create a map to discover what gave them purpose and meaning and ultimately joy.

  Dave

  And so from 16 years as a high school English teacher, what what are some of the things that you took away from what seemed to work for you best that you carried into your your practice?

  Sandra

  Well, I mean, I hate to say this, one of the things I took away was, the more fun we had, and the more empowered I was to do what I knew did work. Yeah, the, the less comfortable the adults in power were, because it meant that my students were thinking and challenging and questioning and investigating. And I think those are all characteristics of authentic learning. So one of the lessons I had to accept was, that's not really what the administrators at my schools wanted, which is one of the reasons why I had to leave, because my students knew me too. Well, they knew that that's what the agenda was underneath, whether it was Shakespeare, or grammar, like, if you can write a business letter that has proper grammar, you have much better chances with that cover letter of getting an interview, and et cetera. So, um, but one of the things that I took away from my teaching was that discipline shows love. So when I noticed that a student was, let's say, for example, you Dave, maybe you were acting out, you know, you would have gotten an after school session with me if you stepped out of bounds. Like if you repeated something enough times, like, three strikes, and you've got some time with me, right? And what the one of the first things we would do is we talk about what happened, like, I would have you write a letter and say, you know, and it was actually to your parents to your mom and dad, I miss with Miss Clifton today. This is why, you know, and the second paragraph would be, here's how I'm going to prevent this in the future. And the third paragraph would be, my new goal is this. So I was doing, I was coaching them, I was doing metacognition with them, they had to improve the grammar. They had to, they had to clearly understand the rules of engagement. They had to have the parents sign it. And what happened usually, as a result of that time with me, well, I also, before they even sat down to write that letter, they had to straighten the desks to the wash the board that didn't pick up any trash at the end of the day. Am I done yet? I remember like, Am I done yet? I'd be like, Nope, I need this Nope, I knew that. They had to sit down and write the letter, then they had to talk to me. Then they had to go home and get the signature and bring it back. And inevitably, I would a couple couple of weeks later see little head, you know, peeking around the door after school. And I'd be like, Hey, what's up? Do you need anything with Clifton? Do you want me to straighten the desks? And I'd be like, Sure, I'm getting chills on this hot day, David, because what those kids needed was someone to notice that something was amiss, and to take the time to interact with them, and to say, here's how the game works. I'm gonna give you the inner rules of the game, because you are not getting it. And I know you don't want to mess up, I know you want to succeed. And I and I'm here to help you to coach you. So that tomorrow will be different. And so I think they also realized that they could make a difference that they could improve the quality of that classroom environment. And then it mattered. It mattered to me, and I think to other people, too. But, you know, you got to take the time to do that. So in my private practice, I am one on one. And I think that laser focus on each individual. One at a time is something I think is invaluable. So I'll just pause there. Yeah.

  Dave

  No, it's It's, I What's cool about it, too, is I'm sure those students remember you fondly. You know, like I had, I had grade seven. I was held back that year by a teacher Pat Riley, Mr. Riley who was the best. And he he was like this kind of big Irish guy who everybody was afraid of until you had him and then you realize like, and he taught grades seven and eight. And, and it was and he held me back at grade seven. I think every teacher passed me in order to literally pass me to somebody, someone else did not have to deal with me again. And I believe that was the first you know, seven years until he got me and then he held me back. He's like, Well like you're not, you're not ready for aid and going into high school. So let's let's focus on some stuff. He also when I first had in, in my memory, I don't recall whether I intentionally skipped. You also use a different word for it. But you know, in the in my day it was detention. Yeah. What did you call it?

  Unknown Speaker

  After school session or

  Dave

  after school session? Yes, yes. Yes. I like that. Yeah. So he had, I guess maybe when I first had him, he, yeah. He said, You know, I want you to stay after class for detention, because I acted out or did something. And after school, I can't remember if I forgot, or I just in my defiant way, just left and went home. But I was, I remember it. So well. I'm in the basement of my house with my brother. And we're watching TV. It was probably Three's Company. And I hear the doorbell ring. When my mom goes upstairs, or my mom answers the door upstairs. And I hear her say, Mr. Reilly, like, what are you doing here? And he's dead. He said, Oh, you know, Dave forgot his detention. So I'm just here to pick him up. And he literally sent me along with Mr. Riley. And he drove me back to school and I had to do my detention. Yeah, something you can't get away with now so much, but this is the 70s or mid 70s? I guess.

  Sandra

  Yeah. I mean, I probably called it slipped into tension. And I think, I think that is a case in point for, you know, you're on my clock. This. And I think my clients know this too, like, if five minutes goes by, I'm going to text them if 10 minutes goes by, you know, I'm going to call them a 15 minutes goes by their parents are going to be notified, like you're on my Clifton clock, you are mine for this 50 minutes. And we're going to move heaven and earth to show up for each other. And, you know, one of my languages of love, I guess, is, is the gift of time. And I I guess this gets into maybe more than what your podcast is about. But we're all so distracted and fragmented in our attention, that having that focus on just one person and and that turning off everything else, I think is also a form of mindfulness.

  Dave

  I agree. I agree. 100% To that, yeah, I am I practice meditation daily, or most almost every day, I should say. And and mindfulness is part of that. And, yeah, attention is something that and time is something that I think we, we often forget. And it's something finite that we have a limited amount of. And so how we spend it is important. And if you're just staring Doom scrolling the news or, you know, Mindlessly scrolling through tick tock or whatever, you're you're missing out on a lot of life.

  Unknown Speaker

  Absolutely.

  Dave

  So your business plan is a mix of Mr. Rogers, Mary Poppins and Jerry Maguire. Talk to me about that.

  Sandra

  Um, well, I'll work backwards. You know, Jerry Maguire. The thing about him is, he talked about that time, right. And that attention, he had that one client, and he focused on that one person. And, and I think I saw the power of that like, and the bond, so I tried to explain to parents and sometimes psychologists to attachment and attunement are my cornerstones of the Clifton corner. And the, I think what's interesting and Jerry Maguire is, you know, again, they were a team, so and they and they had and they had to work together to understand each other. And in that was a bond and they what their success came as a partnership. So that's, that's Jerry. Okay, I'm thinking about the goldfish. You know, he was like, hello, bottom feeder, because you know, you do when you start with just one you're at the bottom, it kind of was what the world thinks, but I think that one is the whole world. Okay, so there's that. So then, Mary Poppins was one of the movies when I was little, of course. You know? I'm forgetting her name. Julie. Julie Andrews. There we go. Um, Julie Andrews, just was magical to me. And I saw how she took to kind of dejected kids and brought their world to to life and made the simplest things fun. And that's kind of partly him. My job too, taking the mundane and giving it a little bit. And I know there's a lot to compete with today. But, you know, giving it that, that spark and that that lilt. And I do sing. I used to sing when I taught I sing answers to my students. But there's, there's some acting and some singing and some dancing that goes along with how I approach learning. And then, of course, Mr. Rogers is the ultimate example of unconditional love. And I just remember when I was a kid, you know, my parents loved me, I adore them. They were, you know, they were doing parenting the first time around with me. So there's that. But Mr. Rogers was the first human who I really heard the words, I like you just the way you are. And I could start like, break down and cry right now talking about his message of seeing kids accepting kids, loving kids, and meeting them exactly where they were. And knowing there was nothing that they couldn't talk about, or they couldn't discuss and an address in those episodes with him. Yeah.

  Dave

  The and not just kids to adults as well. Like, that's, that was one of the coolest things about Mr. Rogers. Retrospective. Lee speaking like, I remember, when will you be my neighbor, the documentary before the Tom Hanks film, the documentary came out, and we went to go see it in the theater. And it was packed, it was 2018. And I'm a big movie nerd. And I love I love seeing movies in the theater still, you know, the good movies anyway, like that one. And my wife and I went, and with our kids who were somewhat familiar with Mr. Rogers, but you know, and we saw the movie, and I remember thinking, this is 2018. In America, right. So we are, you know, very, very, very, things are very heated, everybody's very divided politically. You know, it's not, not the not the greatest part of the country's history. But we're in this movie theater, watching a documentary about somebody who we all know, and most of us grew up with, regardless of our politics, or religion, or lack of religion, or any of that stuff. And it was just a movie theater filled with strangers. And it was such a special moment. Being in there and and realizing that I'm surrounded by people, like all these different people, and in the movie, even. You know, they they cover, they talk about some of the inclusivity and some of the stuff that he did back then, which was just so inspiring, which was pretty cool. So yeah, coming out of that theater, it was just such a nice kind of feeling. And I think everybody, I think there's this collective kind of sigh and breathe and breath of relaxation. Have everybody realized that? You know what? We're all kind of humans, and we should stop being stupid. Yeah.

  Sandra

  Everything I ever needed to learn. I learned in kindergarten. Did you ever see that poster? Yeah, yeah, I'll ever needed to learn. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. In my classroom at one point.

  Dave

  Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. And you've done work in, like, cognitive diversity. Tell me a little bit about that.

  Sandra

  Yeah, so I am a doctoral candidate, I started. I never had the intention of working on my doctorate. I, you know, I did many certifications when I moved to New York. And I decided, you know, to, to work in education, but outside of schools, and I've worked 1617 years on all those certifications. And I finally got board certified as an educational therapist, and I said, Okay, you know, my case study took me five years. This is like a dissertation. I'm done. But then COVID hit and I thought, oh my gosh, I'm a celiac I'm not going to learn how to bake bread, like what in the world is, am I going to do I saw the, you know, the whole world imploding, so

  Unknown Speaker

  you could find the yeast anyway, so

  Sandra

  yeah, yeah, there you go. So I I heard about this program from another educational therapist, and all I was going to do is have this like 10 minute phone conversation with her and find out what you know what she was doing. It ended up being two hours. And she told me about this program. a doctorate in cognitive Diversity in education, and I found myself applying. And so at this point, I'm, I'm in my, I'm writing my dissertation. And I'm, I'm in chapter four of five chapters. So I'm plowing through the process. Have you ever known somebody who can take a test? And they may know a little bit of the information, but on a multiple choice test, like they just seem to know what to answer and to score pretty well? Yes. Okay. So that's what we would call neurotypical. In that there's, you know, there's kind of a grid of information. And it's an approach to and its approach to knowledge as like, sequential and linear, cognitive diversity, if you would hear what's going on in my head when I have to choose between all those multiple choice answers. I'm having a huge debate. Right? Yeah. And I'm going in circles, and down tangents, and through all these rabbit holes, and it is really exhausting. And so, you know, I was thinking before this call was like, wow, I was trying to teach poetry and drama, and literature that's created by these artists who are obviously cognitively diverse, to a lot of kids that are on the grid. You know, they're like, A plus B equals C, who's Clifton, what are you talking about? And I was trying to help them be more cognitively flexible, and see a more diverse, multifaceted perspective, when they were really liking the approach to history facts. I mean, at least back then, like this happened, the end, right? Or math? Do this equation, get this answer the end. And I think a lot of the way school is taught is, you know, learn this scientific fact, you're done. But when we really look at learning, my goodness, that's just the beginning. Quantum physics is like, the further down you go deep down you go, the more chaotic life it is, which is so fascinating to me. Anyway. So cognitive diversity is about folks who see those, all those different moving pieces, a kaleidoscope of options, and had a pretty tricky time fitting into the box called school. Does that help at all?

  Dave

  It does, it does. I'm curious to like from your own, from your studies, and from your experiences to like in the in the education system? Did you ever see, Sir Ken Robinson? Oh, talk? Oh, my gosh, yeah. So it was for those who are not familiar. It's called Do schools kill creativity. And it's actually the number one at least last I checked, it was the number one TED talk not TEDx, TED Talk. mainstage. And I actually ended up reading his book, or one of his books, called, I think it was finding your element. I think it was that one. And I read it, because in part, I mean, well, first of all, I had two young kids at the time, they're teenagers now. And so and they were going to a Montessori school, which I really appreciated that methodology. But, um, so I enjoyed that book. But I think, you know, it's interesting, because being diagnosed with ADHD at 50. This year, you know, within the last several months, I've obviously done a lot of reflection on my own life and my own career and education and all the things without, without dwelling on any sort of negative aspects to that, or at least try my best not to do that. Not, you know, the what ifs and all that stuff. But where do you see? Or do you see the education system in this country being reformed or updated somehow, in order to help serve all types of people, neurologically speaking, or anybody for that matter? It? Is it in the cards even Is it possible to reform how we educate so that we can serve and help everyone?

  Sandra

  I think I mean, I, I feel in pictures and the whole time you were talking, I just there was a whole montage of images going through my head. And one thing I can say is, you know, again, I'm on behalf of all adults, I would say to my students to I'm, I'm sorry, you know, and I would start this thing to to, to make my myself Who better to I would say, well, at the Clifton Academy? Yeah, we would, you know, and I would say on rainy days, instead of just snow days, on rainy days, we'd have a rain phone tree. And we'd get a call and you'd say, it's raining today, grab your book, go start the fire, sit by a window, grab your cat, stay in bed. We're going to read today, and then we're going to talk about what we read. And you know what I say? Well, in the Clifton Academy, there wouldn't be bells you'd hear on Mondays, it'd be jazz Mondays, and by the time it you know, by the time the music stopped, you'd have to be on your seat just like musical chairs, and they loved hearing my stories, because it meant I wasn't teaching. You know, I went into that Julie Andrews entertaining Mary Poppins mode, but um, reform, just even the word reform scares me. Right, because I think reform school.

  Unknown Speaker

  Hey, yeah, sorry, update, or Oh, reboot?

  Sandra

  It's okay. You know, but at the same time, I think we're in a quandary, because the reboot, reboot for me, again, I feel on images is, is a mechanical or technological thing. And I think this could be a huge symposium, right? Have a panel of people hitting around ideas about what, what kids need, and and we're so off the mark. And we're so far away from reaching them, and it gives me it gives me so much concern. And I one thing I one thing I can tell you right away is one of the I don't think there are many answers, and I but I do think there are environments in one environment that our kids need, and I don't care what kid you are, where you are, you know, what you're learning what your IQ is, or isn't. Nature is one of the answers I really believe is true for every every human soul, really. But we I don't know if you've heard of that book. Nature Deficit Disorder.

  Dave

  Have you Dave know, it sounds interesting. Uh huh. And it talks

  Sandra

  about, you know, the Japanese had the studies about tree bathing. Yeah. And the benefits of that, right. And then HeartMath here in the States took on some of that research, and the benefits of well being and focus and connectivity and peace that come from being outside are exponential. So that is one thing I can say that I would I wish that we could think about.

  Dave

  Yeah, and even Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. Yeah, no, go ahead. I was just gonna say I mean, right away. I was I was really disappointed as my kids moved into a different school. That's a little more traditional than Montessori. Where like recess was cut. Yep. Yep. You got it, or like, it seemed gradual to is like, Well, no, it's an hour, then it was 30 minutes, then now we're not doing anymore. And it's like, you're not even going outside. Like I said, at least it sucked because it was all concrete. But still, at least I got outside and got air even in the dead of winter.

  Sandra

  Yep. Well, and you know, Steve Jobs when he was processing it. First thing he would say is take a walk with me. You know. And that that getting out energy and playing and social skills and endorphins, there's just there's, there's it's an all when it's an all giving teachers a break, like it's all for the good recess all the way through. I think I think adults need it. I think kids need it. I think the elderly need everybody needs recess.

  Dave

  Yeah, yeah, no, I agree completely. I actually, I've developed I do a lot of public speaking. And I've developed a new keynote presentation that that I call more than a tree, reaching your roots standing tall and branching out. And it's about, partly about my own discovery of ADHD. But it's also like the key takeaways is really like the first is to know yourself, and I share some tools to help with that. The second is to respect yourself. And then the third is to find the other so find your community. And I keep going back to this motif around forests and trees and and I was speaking to somebody recently I read a great book last year called it's it's something to do with like, the forest is talking or the trees are talking and and it's fascinating because the the researcher and writer proves that trees do talk. Oh, yeah. Through electrical currents. Yeah. And emitting chemicals through the forest and all this stuff. That's fascinating. Yeah.

  Sandra

  Yeah. Richard Richard powers wrote a book that I got the Nobel or whatever. And I'm going to know it's called the understory. Now, that's not my favorite work that he did. But it was based on some of that research about the the trees are communicating with each other warning each other. Yeah, yeah. forest fires. And yeah, they have a whole Yeah. Intricate.

  Dave

  It's really wild. Yeah, the fascinating. I just picked up the book off my shelf. It's called the hidden life of trees.

  Unknown Speaker

  Yeah, exactly.

  Dave

  So, you know, we, we talked a little bit about, you know, the education system. One thing I'm curious about, you know, obviously, this show is for people like me, who are late diagnosed adults with ADHD, and I know, you, obviously serve a lot of a lot of children and have served a lot of children. So like, what are some strategies or techniques that you've, you see, that that tend to work? Maybe I don't know if it's more so or differently, but that tend to work for, you know, adults with ADHD?

  Sandra

  Yeah, it's such an interesting question. Because my span of clients is from second grade all the way through college, I have lot a law student, I have a person right now who's, you know, crafting songs and the music industry, and I work with parents and other professionals. So I'm going to tell you something, that's going to be a frustrating response. Because it's not an answer, and it's, every case is so different. I think one thing that concerns me in some of the literature that's out there is this. You know, neurodiversity is not fitting in a box, and then someone takes these, sometimes these characteristics that can apply, and they boil them down, and they say, you know, twice exceptional people are usually this and I'm thinking, well, sometimes, that can be true, but I am very much about the individual case. And, and peeling back those layers and finding out what, where that spark is for that person, where they feel interest and purpose. And, you know, like, I don't know, curiosity. And I think that's where when we can start to tap into that. That's our goldmine. So, for you, for example, I'm guessing that you'd like to connect with people. Could this be true?

  Unknown Speaker

  Yeah, definitely. I wrote a book about networking.

  Sandra

  Okay, so you know, if I were working with you, Dave, I would be saying to you, Hey, your daily vitamin is connection. Who are you connecting with today? And we could build a whole curriculum for you about, okay, well, but how are you going to find those people? And how are you going to schedule those people? And how are you going to, you know, record what you learned from those people or whatever it is, so that it becomes completely and totally focused on your pulse, rather than bringing a program and trying to apply it at you? Or to you? Does that make sense?

  Dave

  Yeah, it does make sense. And I can, I can completely see where you're coming from? I mean, like, I guess I would, I would push back a little just to say that, you know, in these conversations I've been having. And in my kind of, you know, poor man's research here, very early days of, of kind of reading up and learning about ADHD, especially with with adults. While Yeah, I do hear that a lot that it is it does show very differently in different people. But are there any I mean, surely, I mean, there's an acronym there. So there's similarities between those who are neurodiverse as it applies to ADHD, specifically versus neurotypical, as you mentioned, so like, what are those differences? And how does treating or even just being empathetic to those in your life with ADHD? Like, what are those? What are those things that people should be aware of? And ways to maybe support them?

  Sandra

  Yeah, I mean, I'm going to pull back and also push back in that honest qualitative. Yeah, I'm a qualitative researcher now. And what that means is I study the individual stories of each person And I'm thinking of Brene Brown, who says I collect stories, and she is able to boil down to a key theme, right? That. And one of her key themes is people who are vulnerable are strong. And that, that the reason that they've been able to make connections is because they're, they're willing to go to those soft places. But in terms of characteristics, again, like Sally Shaywitz, at the Center for Creativity and dyslexia at Yale University said, and I love this, she said, if you've met one person who's dyslexic, you've met one person who's dyslexic. And so I am careful about that. And I think it is tricky, because we've got this whole eclectic mix of sometimes co occurrences. So you could have, for example, a person with ADHD, who does have dyslexia, who, or who has clinical anxiety or, you know, trauma, or aces or something. And so all of these things go into the mix. And I think that's, for me, sometimes why I was just approached the other day, from somebody who was labeled as bipolar and medicated, and has now kind of come to another conclusion, and is looking back with a lot of grief, trauma and anger. So for me, I tried to be really careful that way, and. And there's some, I guess, things in the DSM, for example, that are a checklist, and that's fine. And people who work with those checklists are in the medical model and the medical model, Dave is deficit based. So it says you're broken. It says that you are you that you don't work according to how you're supposed to. And one of the reasons why I am in this program, and I am working on my doctorate is my program is strengths based, talent focused. And so not to whitewash it or rose colored glasses. But you know, I people come to me a lot and say, Well, let me tell you three things. Tell me what I'm what I should do. And I think that gets us into a real quagmire there, because it does, it does put a person in a position of taking an answer approach. And I think I want to stay in a place of curiosity, and compassion. And the story that is unique to that person, I the text of a person is sacred. You are my sacred text. So I want to read really, really carefully. And I want to read between the lines, and you can hear me getting kind of quiet. And I want to honor the fact that the there's mystery there, there's interpretation there. And sometimes we need to be really careful and process before jumping into those easy responses. Because I don't think this is an easy journey with whatever diagnosis you may have.

  Dave

  You mentioned Yale and yeah, you start your program, coaching and master trainers that correct? For the Center for emotional intelligence intelligence at Yale, is that correct?

  Sandra

  So once upon a time, you know, I went to New York, and I said to my, my family, okay, I want to become a certified coach, life coach, and I like what you're spending how much to become what? And so I earned my initial certification in coaching. And luckily, for me, I was I was tagged on LinkedIn as one of those. It was still in the early days of coaching, I was tagged in the center for emotional intelligence that Yale had five spots for coaches who were had earned that credential. And so I joined a team at the Center for emotional intelligence and began learning that program of emotional literacy with Dr. Mark Brackett and it was life changing because a lot of the things I'd been doing in the classroom right, they thought I was a maverick, you know, they thought they thought all the things. And actually at Yale, you can have some minions do a lot of hardcore, quantitative and qualitative data collecting and get some real science behind these theories. And so I was very lucky to work with teachers and principals in a program of emotional literacy in the in the Catholic schools of Brooklyn, and Queens, for fifth and sixth grade classrooms the first year and then seventh and eighth grade classrooms the second year. What were

  Dave

  some of The revelations are some of the things that stood out to you from, you know, that studying like, er II I motional intelligence specifically.

  Sandra

  Yeah, I mean, I just, it's the heartbeat of, I just think it's the heartbeat of learning, right? Because emotional literacy means that at the beginning, middle and end, we want to create an environment of safety. If you're not safe, you cannot learn, I don't care who you are, your brain shuts down, you know, your amygdala flips. And you don't have access to the higher parts of your brain with the prefrontal cortex, Speech, Language, memory, all of that jazz. So, I love I absolutely loved it. And we don't in school teach and emotional vocabulary. And we kind of default to those four happy, angry, tired, sad. Well, speaking of Brene, brown, have you heard of Atlas of the heart? I have. So she she has her own curriculum of sorry about the loud noise. She has her own curriculum of emotional literacy that where she teaches, you know, overt anguish, right, she has a quote, and then she talks about it, she gives examples of it. And I, you know, I think, having the tools that were in what they call the ruler method, it's just one example of what you can do in a school curriculum and or a private practice. But having those tools and using those tools are real, they're really helpful in guiding communication between two people, but also the communication that goes on inside of the self.

  Dave

  Yeah, and I think we could all use assistance with that, for sure. At least I speak for myself that way. Definitely.

  Sandra

  That self talk, I mean, having that conversation with the person, or persons inside is huge.

  Dave

  Yeah. Yeah. What, what, when, tell me a little bit about like, the self awareness, like any tips around self awareness for folks to, you know, whether it's, I mean, we've mentioned some books here, but some activities, anything that, you know, that listeners can do to help with with that, obviously, self management and social awareness and relationship management are all important, too. But I think it always starts with the self. Yeah, any any tips there?

  Sandra

  I mean, I'm gonna tell you two things. One, I'm going to, again, work backwards. I am, I'm so grateful for this app called Marco Polo. And I've been able to exchange videos was with my college roommate, and I don't know if she'll ever hear this, but she was so smart. She, she didn't have to go to class Much, much. She's a brilliant individual. And, and one thing that we're doing is we have a show that we're watching together, and then we talk about it, and she'll say, oh, my gosh, I'll take a picture of the screen. And I'll say, do you see the statue and how they, you know, film the scene, this moment of the, you know, the plot where this is happening? And that's in the background. She'll be like, Oh, my gosh, I would have never seen that. Right. Nice. Yeah. So and we talked about the character development and the plot and the, you know, those camera angles and the different the different choices that directors are making, and et cetera. And it's just so invigorating film, I think we've talked about Jerry and Mary and and Mr. Rogers, so obviously, I'm, I think film, and TV is an incredible venue, but also I'm going to go back to my roots, my roots are in in reading. Well, also, I guess I would include music there to date. Because in terms of self awareness, I think every time you pick up a book, every single time you are engaging with yourself, you and I used to say this to my students who hopefully reading is engaging on the page, you are participating in the making of meaning. And in that apt you are not just connecting with those characters, but you see those characters in yourself.

  Dave

  Interesting. So maybe, yeah, read, read more fiction, and watch more quality films and television. I wonder, I have to ask and I'm being mindful of our time. What is it succession that your friend and you are talking about?

  Sandra

  Oh, that's so funny, because it's getting so many awards. Well, right now, we've watched a ton of shows together. I could talk to you for a whole other episode about it, but because they've been really really interesting. I've learned a lot. Right now we're watching the bear.

  Dave

  Oh, I love that show. Yes, it's right up there with succession but it's very different, obviously. But it's a it's a fan. tastic show. Yeah, the the episode in the first season, I think it's episode six, when the ticket machine goes awry, and all these orders are coming through that whole episode was shot without an edit. So the whole thing was shot. Handheld? No edits,

  Unknown Speaker

  and I'm not there yet.

  Dave

  Yeah, no spoilers, don't worry, but but that episode is when you see it. Yeah, like notice the the fact that it that there's no edits at all and, and it's it, it makes it even that much more that much better and that much more impactful. And the other thing I'll mention without spoiling anything, because I'm very intentional with that is that that show, the director of that show would only allow one or two takes for the actors each. That's it, so they wouldn't do a third. And I think that really helps to capture the sort of awkwardness and the stress of the actors, as they're portrayed in the characters. So it's pretty fascinating on the big film nerd, but I wish we had more time for that.

  Sandra

  I guess I would comment on you know, that's part of what my work is to is, I'm trying to help my clients step away from the perfection and the procrastination and get back into the process. And I think, you know, when you were saying, Is there anything that we can help with ADHD or cognitive diversity, I have so many folks who are anxious because they are looking at the, at the process as a one time only thing. And for us, it's about getting in there and going well, let's see what we can do right now with the five minutes we have left, right? Yeah. In terms of what that director two is also doing, it's kind of like this dichotomy of, let's give it one take and see what we can get. It's gonna be like, it's good enough. You're good enough? This is okay. Right? Instead of trying to have this perfect. Product.

  Dave

  Yeah, it's it's taking the ingredients you have getting in the kitchen and seeing what you can whip up. And you might come up with like the best new dish that didn't exist before. They might be chocolate and peanut butter. Who knows? This has been awesome. And being mindful of your time here. Is there anything I didn't ask you or anything you wanted to share? Before we wrap up?

  Sandra

  Well, I would love to come back down the road, Dave and talk about parents and what maybe parents can do to support students. But maybe the parents you would be thinking about our parents, you know, like you you're a parent, how can you as a dad with ADHD, have compassion for your kids. Right? And also navigate negotiate all of the different worlds that you're juggling? I don't know. It's just an idea. But um, thank you for having me. It's been an honor and a pleasure and a delight.

  Dave

  Yeah, thank you. It's been Yeah, it's been lots of fun. What? How can people get a hold of you and learn more about what you do and get in touch?

  Sandra

  Yeah, they can go to you. I'm gonna give you first the website. For adults. It's Sandra clifton.com. And then if you have someone who is a kiddo, it's sensitive. students.com.

  Dave

  Right. Well, I will make sure to include links to everything we talked about here in the show notes so people can click over and learn more. So yeah, thanks again for joining me today. This has been fun.

  Sandra

  Oh, thank you, Dave. It's been a joy. Thank you so much.