PODCAST. Use Gamification For Your Goals with Caitlin Johnson.
In this energizing episode of ADHD Wise Squirrels, Dave Delaney sits down with Caitlin Johnson, a gamification strategist, leadership coach, and the founder of Bold Bird Consulting. Caitlin helps individuals and companies turn goal-setting into a fun, strategic adventure—think video game design meets personal development. While Caitlin doesn't have ADHD herself, she brings a powerful perspective as the neurotypical partner of someone who does, and her insights are a goldmine for Wise Squirrels looking to stay motivated and on track.
Gamification Isn’t Just for Games
Caitlin breaks down the concept of gamification — using the principles of video game design to inspire action in real life; her goal is to make progress feel like play.
The 4 Game Player Personas
Based on research by Richard Bartle, Caitlin introduces us to four core gamer types:
The Dominator – Competitive, strategic, loves to win.
The Achiever – Focused on learning, badges, and personal milestones.
The Connector – Wins by helping others succeed and building relationships.
The Explorer – Motivated by curiosity and side quests.
With ADHD, the odds are good that you’ll connect with The Explorer (hello, novelty!), but Caitlin reminds us we can shift between types depending on our environment and season of life.
ADHD, Motivation, and Keeping the Novelty Alive
They discussed how even when a strategy works for someone with ADHD, it can stop working once the novelty wears off. Caitlin shares how gamifying our goals in 90-day quests keeps things fresh, flexible, and motivating. These time-bound missions help bypass overwhelm and avoid the paralysis of massive long-term goals; even Dave uses SMART goals in his coaching practice.
The Power of Streaks (and When to Let Them Go)
Whether you’re using a streak to finish writing a book (like Caitlin is) or building new habits, she explains how 21 days can help build routines—and how 90 days is the sweet spot for meaningful progress. After that? It's time to reassess and adjust.
Find Your 'Why' with Ikigai
Dave and Caitlin nerded out on the Japanese concept of Ikigai—the intersection of what you love, what you’re good at, what the world needs, and what you can be paid for. If you’re feeling stuck or unsure of your next step, this framework is a powerful tool for clarity and direction.
Here’s how to find your ikigai with our ikgai exercise and ikgai PDF.
Neurodiverse Relationships + Strategic Partnerships
Caitlin opened up about how her relationship with her ADHD husband has deepened through open conversations and learning about neurodivergence. They also explored how neurodivergent solopreneurs can benefit from pairing with strategic partners who bring complementary strengths.
Listen Now If You Want To:
Turn your goals into fun, trackable quests
Figure out why you lose interest halfway through your goals (and what to do about it)
Learn why your “imposter syndrome” might actually be a sign of growth
Discover your game player persona and how it impacts motivation
Hear how a neurotypical-ADHD relationship thrives with gamified communication
Final Thought:
Your ADHD brain isn’t broken—it just plays by different rules. When you understand your play style, you can build a life and career that works with your brain, not against it.
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[02:14.160 --> 02:19.760] I am a gamification
[02:19.760 --> 02:26.880] strategist, which basically means I create games using video game design and I help individuals
[02:26.880 --> 02:33.040] and companies craft strategies to turn their goal achievement into a fun and epic adventure.
[02:33.040 --> 02:38.800] And so I've been doing this for 10 years with companies like the Ritz Carlton, Marriott,
[02:38.800 --> 02:44.080] Lowe's home improvement, Bass Pro, and then also working with my individual executive coaching
[02:44.080 --> 02:50.080] clients to help them level up in their career and using the the system and the process behind
[02:50.080 --> 02:56.560] video games to inspire action to move forward to take bold movement. And so my company name is
[02:56.560 --> 03:03.600] called Bold Bird Consulting and it's a bit of an avatar for me. I'm a five, three, you know,
[03:03.600 --> 03:08.560] female. My mom used to make fun of me when I was younger to say I always like pecked at my food.
[03:10.000 --> 03:18.160] And so I've always been this bird in that sense, but yet I do bold things. I identify what I want
[03:18.160 --> 03:24.480] in life and I put together a strategy and I go after it and one of the things I want in life is
[03:24.480 --> 03:30.000] to help people do the same thing. You know, it's scary to be in a stuck position or a
[03:30.000 --> 03:36.080] transitionary position and I've been in a couple, I've gamified my unemployment, you know,
[03:36.080 --> 03:41.680] I gamified everything. So I'm excited to be here and share a little bit about my knowledge
[03:41.680 --> 03:47.840] for your listeners and actually Dave, I also want to tell you my husband and I came across your
[03:47.840 --> 03:53.600] podcast several months ago and he was listening to it as he's getting to understand more and more
[03:53.600 --> 04:02.000] about ADHD and heard so much connection between your stories and the guests that you bring on to
[04:02.000 --> 04:07.520] the show that he was like, Caitlin, you've got to listen to this. And so it's actually helped the
[04:07.520 --> 04:14.480] two of us because he has ADHD. I do not. It's helped us have some really great conversations on how
[04:14.480 --> 04:19.520] to level up in our own relationship and we've been together since college. So, you know,
[04:19.520 --> 04:25.840] ups and downs, seasons, you know, all of that within a relationship. So thank you for what you're
[04:25.840 --> 04:30.880] creating because that was what prompted me to reach out to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was
[04:30.880 --> 04:36.240] listening to another of your episodes where you were speaking with a woman and said, gosh,
[04:36.240 --> 04:43.120] it would be so much fun to bring somebody on who doesn't have ADHD to think, you know, to understand
[04:43.200 --> 04:51.200] how does their brain process strategize? Yeah. And the fact, and I love the fact that you reached out
[04:51.200 --> 04:57.280] first of all and so thank you for that. And also, yeah, I mean, it's cool because yeah, you've been
[04:57.280 --> 05:03.840] with your husband for a long time and he has ADHD and which is an interesting approach to this,
[05:03.840 --> 05:10.720] right? Because you understand or you're learning at least about, you know, some of the challenges we
[05:10.720 --> 05:17.520] face with ADHD. And so if you didn't have that aspect, I'd be like, well, it's great that you,
[05:17.520 --> 05:23.360] you're, you're good at gamification and this stuff, which I'm a big fan of as well, just as a
[05:23.360 --> 05:31.680] recovering marketer too. But I also think about like, you know, not all the neurotypical strategies
[05:31.680 --> 05:40.160] work well for us. Yes. And even even the challenges we face sometimes when, which is like one of the
[05:40.160 --> 05:49.280] curses of ADHD, in my opinion, is that when we find a strategy that finally works well, it works great
[05:49.280 --> 05:56.480] until the novelty aspect of it runs out or runs off or yes, like that. And then, and then it doesn't
[05:56.480 --> 06:01.440] work anymore. It's like, damn it. We found this like great. I know the sweet spot. And then it slips
[06:01.440 --> 06:06.720] out of your fingers. Yeah. And that's that's actually where I find game design so thrilling. And many of
[06:06.720 --> 06:12.960] my executive coaching leaders, my clients, have either had ADHD or they're super creative.
[06:13.760 --> 06:19.200] And love newness, right? Just what's the next thing that I want to work on? And so when I was
[06:19.200 --> 06:25.120] thinking about what could I share today that would be helpful for your listeners as it pertains to
[06:25.120 --> 06:31.920] ADHD and how the brain functions. And I am by no means an expert in this space. But I understand the
[06:31.920 --> 06:37.920] psychology behind how we play games. And so the first thing I want to share with everybody are that
[06:37.920 --> 06:45.680] there are four ways that we play games. And this was researched done by Richard Bartle in 1996,
[06:45.680 --> 06:52.720] when he was studying gameplay. And two of the game players, I would say are more like in the box
[06:52.720 --> 06:59.520] based on society's norms of being disciplined and go getters. And then two of the other players are
[06:59.520 --> 07:06.240] more creative and freelance. You know, maybe the entrepreneurs in the world and perhaps have ADHD.
[07:06.240 --> 07:13.680] And I have seen some connection with that. So the first player is a dominator. This is
[07:13.680 --> 07:18.080] that go getter super strategic. They're going to read the directions forwards and backwards.
[07:18.080 --> 07:24.480] There's no friends and card games type of person. And they just want to annihilate the competition
[07:24.480 --> 07:30.800] and be first. So typically, I think stereotypically sales people, you know, I cut through it. I'm
[07:30.800 --> 07:37.840] going to get the business, right? But I would say when I explain these four players, I challenge the
[07:37.840 --> 07:44.720] audience to see which one do you connect with most, but then also ask yourself which environments
[07:45.440 --> 07:52.160] trigger these players? Because I'm not always a dominator, but I am writing a book on how to
[07:52.160 --> 07:59.760] gamify your goals. And I will tell you, I am competing against James Clear, author of Atomic
[07:59.760 --> 08:05.600] Habits, right? So I'm studying, how did he get his book out to be the top number one purchased,
[08:05.600 --> 08:09.120] you know, New Year's Resolutions books? And I hope to be better than him.
[08:09.680 --> 08:14.320] Yeah, that's a great, that's a great goal. I love it. I love it. And that is a good book too. So
[08:14.800 --> 08:23.840] that's awesome. Yeah, it's interesting. So do you think, like with that kind of number one
[08:23.840 --> 08:32.080] approach, right? Like that sales type of person, it's interesting because, and you know, you touched
[08:32.080 --> 08:40.560] on something there about like the gaming aspects in that, like, okay, so like I'm like when somebody
[08:40.640 --> 08:45.120] reaches out to me about hiring me to deliver a keynote presentation or a workshop for their
[08:45.120 --> 08:49.920] company, you know, this is what I'm do, this is what I do, this is what I'm, I'm very passionate about
[08:49.920 --> 08:59.840] or coaching clients as well. If it's not a good fit, then like, I'm not going to be able to sell
[08:59.840 --> 09:06.320] myself partly because I just don't, I know it's not, I'm not a good fit. And so for me, I get really
[09:06.320 --> 09:12.640] excited in a sort of sales discussion if I can help the person because I'm very honest. I don't
[09:12.640 --> 09:18.480] sell snake oil. There's plenty of people on the internet for that. Um, and out in the world.
[09:18.480 --> 09:24.960] So, uh, yeah, there's, there's, yeah, get rich quick and all that stuff. So, so, you know, I have
[09:24.960 --> 09:29.360] feedback once a long time ago and I've never been in a sort of sales role besides working for
[09:29.360 --> 09:35.440] myself. You have to, but before that, I had this feedback that like Dave, you would be great at
[09:35.440 --> 09:41.440] sales as long as you believe in what you're selling. For sure. Absolutely. Yeah. So tell me a little
[09:41.440 --> 09:46.480] bit about that approach to things like, you know, because if you're selling like mattresses, it's like,
[09:46.480 --> 09:52.800] well, yeah, I don't believe in it. Yeah. You know, okay. So I'm going to address that and then I'll
[09:52.800 --> 09:58.080] go back to another player type that I think you might actually connect with more than a dominator.
[09:58.080 --> 10:03.440] So to answer your first question. So if you don't believe in what you're doing period, whether it's
[10:03.440 --> 10:09.040] sales or whatever the case may be, you're not going to play. The first thing video game designers do
[10:09.040 --> 10:15.520] is identify what is the epic mission of this game? What is the reason for people to play and to keep
[10:15.520 --> 10:22.000] playing? So you have to have a strong, if I was to take that language and translate it into non-gaming
[10:22.000 --> 10:27.920] terminology, you have to have a strong why? Why are you doing this? What, you know, and do you believe
[10:28.080 --> 10:34.000] in what you do as a job and as a living, right? So absolutely. You have to have an epic mission
[10:34.000 --> 10:40.240] that you're going after and then you learn to play the game. So you may not directly relate to
[10:40.240 --> 10:46.640] a dominator in that sense, but let me tell you another game player type, okay? So the one perhaps
[10:46.640 --> 10:53.280] you connect with more is what's called a connector. So the connector game player prefers to play games
[10:53.360 --> 11:01.520] with other people. So a great example of this is Lord of the Rings, Samwise Gamji. He is more of a
[11:01.520 --> 11:07.040] connector. He wants to help Frodo win, right? And get rid of the ring and do whatever he needs to do.
[11:07.040 --> 11:12.240] He doesn't need the accolades. He doesn't need to beat Frodo to the top of the mountain, right? He's
[11:12.240 --> 11:17.920] going to go along the journey and help him. So connectors, it's all about the joy and winning
[11:17.920 --> 11:23.840] together with other people. Yeah, it's definitely me. Yeah, yeah, great. Okay. So you can find some
[11:23.840 --> 11:28.160] sales people. If we go back to sales that are connectors because they're in it for the long game,
[11:28.160 --> 11:33.920] they're building relationships. They're coming at it. They're not pitch slapping. They're saying,
[11:33.920 --> 11:38.640] help me understand your problems. And then I'll tell you if I have a solution or maybe I do have
[11:38.640 --> 11:44.080] a solution to help you. So it's a completely different game, completely different strategy.
[11:44.320 --> 11:51.760] Yeah. Okay. So that's two of the four, Dominator, Connector. The next one is an Achiever.
[11:52.800 --> 11:58.560] Achiever, that's the one I connect with the most. That's the one that really excites me. Achievers,
[11:58.560 --> 12:04.800] it's all about accomplishments. It's collecting all the badges, all the accolades. It's the joy of
[12:04.800 --> 12:10.880] learning everything along the way. I do like to come out first, but it's not at the
[12:11.600 --> 12:17.840] the sake of learning along the way. So I'm not going to strategically identify the strategy.
[12:17.840 --> 12:25.680] I'm going to really enjoy the strategy as I go. So I've done a couple Iron Man's half Iron Man's.
[12:25.680 --> 12:32.400] For me, that's an achievement of understanding how do I effectively swim? How do I effectively bike?
[12:32.400 --> 12:38.400] How do I effectively run and get through all of those touch points and check points as I'm going
[12:38.480 --> 12:42.800] through? Yeah. That's awesome. And good for you for that too. That's a huge achievement.
[12:42.800 --> 12:47.920] Thank you. So we got the three. What's the fourth one? The fourth one. Okay. This is where I
[12:47.920 --> 12:54.160] feel your listeners might really connect to you. The fourth one is an explorer. Okay. So they understand
[12:54.160 --> 13:00.560] the objective of how to win, but it's not about winning. It's about discovery and curiosity,
[13:00.560 --> 13:07.680] and they will go chase this world. They will go down the side quest path. It's all about the joy
[13:07.680 --> 13:16.160] in that discovery and curiosity. So for society's perspective, this explorer might come across as
[13:17.360 --> 13:26.000] spontaneous, unfocused, undisciplined, but yet it's not about that. They can do those things.
[13:26.000 --> 13:32.880] Should they choose to? It's more about the discovery of life. What can I experience along the way?
[13:32.880 --> 13:40.160] Yeah. It's not the destination. It's the journey. Yes. Yeah. Joy is in the journey, and it's all
[13:40.160 --> 13:45.520] about what can I discover here? And so it makes sense to me when I'm working with clients that
[13:45.520 --> 13:49.760] when people say, you know, for the first part of the year, I was really excited about learning
[13:49.760 --> 13:54.080] how to kayak. You know, the second part of the year, I don't know. I just lost interest in it,
[13:54.080 --> 13:59.760] and now I want to go do something else. Yeah. Yeah. So understanding which of these four
[14:00.320 --> 14:08.160] game player personas you connect with the most will help you understand tactics to keep you inspired
[14:08.160 --> 14:14.240] and motivated to keep playing. Sorry to interrupt. Have you created an assessment already?
[14:14.240 --> 14:22.560] Yes. Yes. Yes. If you go to my website, www.bull-bird.com, I have a quick little assessment for
[14:22.560 --> 14:28.800] you to identify which of these four game player personas you are, but you can pretty easily figure
[14:28.800 --> 14:34.240] it out. Yeah. But do you have like as a part of that, like if you do like a Myers-Briggs or
[14:34.240 --> 14:40.800] Disk Assessment or something like that, you end up with, you know, if you pay not too much, I think,
[14:40.800 --> 14:45.600] you end up with like, you know, a career strategy guide or like how to get along with the people
[14:45.600 --> 14:51.200] that work type of thing. And while, you know, I mean, I'll be the first to always preface with,
[14:51.200 --> 14:56.640] you know, strengths type assessments, you know, they're not, they're unscientific, but at the same
[14:56.640 --> 15:02.720] time, I always find the value in them most is to your point, like it's helping you identify your
[15:02.720 --> 15:09.600] strengths. And again, while it's not necessarily like scientific, so to speak, it does help you
[15:09.600 --> 15:16.240] identify that. And then if it's packed with extra direction as a result of that. So like if I do
[15:16.240 --> 15:22.080] the assessment and I find out I'm an achiever or a connector, let's say does it include like,
[15:22.720 --> 15:27.760] okay, information. What do I do next? Yes, yes. So you can download it and I have it for free.
[15:27.760 --> 15:32.240] So it's a free assessment and then you can get a free download of, well, then what do I do with
[15:32.240 --> 15:37.680] this information? And I agree with you on assessments. I think they're valuable awareness
[15:37.680 --> 15:42.720] data points, you know, to just understand. So when you take the assessment, you'll then get
[15:42.720 --> 15:47.520] some documents to understand what are the natural strengths of that player type, you know,
[15:47.520 --> 15:52.960] weaknesses, you know, for example, for the explorer, quote unquote, weaknesses would be easily
[15:52.960 --> 15:59.280] distracted, right? They're always curious about the next thing. They complete tasks to 90%.
[15:59.280 --> 16:03.840] They're not completionists, right? Because they're excited about the next things. Like I,
[16:03.840 --> 16:08.960] all right, I got this. I get the gist. I'm going to move on to the next challenge. And then from
[16:08.960 --> 16:13.840] there, I also include different tactics that you can incorporate. Because for an explorer,
[16:13.840 --> 16:22.000] it truly is about uncovering the unknown and that experience in life. It's a different way
[16:22.000 --> 16:28.400] of winning at life because it's more experiential. Yeah. And I thought I would be curious to see
[16:28.400 --> 16:34.240] like because I think, you know, I mean, some big, big points about ADHD. And you know, this is
[16:34.240 --> 16:39.760] the point that I always say, say like I'm not a doctor in order to play one on the internet. So,
[16:39.760 --> 16:44.800] you know, I'm sharing what I've learned along this journey in the last couple of years, really.
[16:46.080 --> 16:52.080] But that, you know, a point I hear a lot is that, you know, there's no two ADHDers who are the same.
[16:52.800 --> 16:58.560] So like ADHD is different in different people and different people have different personalities
[16:58.560 --> 17:04.880] and different strengths and so forth. So that's an important point. I mean, it is an acronym.
[17:04.880 --> 17:10.160] So it does stand for something and there are certainly commonalities and things, you know,
[17:10.160 --> 17:15.920] consistent about executive function and that kind of thing. But based on what you're saying,
[17:15.920 --> 17:23.840] in a way, I feel like I would be interesting to like do your assessment only for ADHDers in a way
[17:23.840 --> 17:30.400] and see what the results are because it might, I hate to say it, but it might poke holes in the theory
[17:30.480 --> 17:38.080] because everybody might be the explorer or the, oh, for sure. You know, like, I don't know. I don't know.
[17:38.080 --> 17:44.000] Be curious. You bring up a really great point because there's a lot of individuals that have ADHD
[17:44.000 --> 17:49.680] that also appreciate being an achiever. And so again, it's about the environment that you're in. So
[17:49.680 --> 17:54.160] if you are, and I've listened to quite a few of your podcasts and some of the experts that come on
[17:54.160 --> 17:59.520] and talk about like when they're structure and you have a process, it helps you stay focused.
[17:59.520 --> 18:04.480] That's true. So if you're in that environment of structure, that achiever might come out of you.
[18:04.480 --> 18:10.640] So you can bounce into all four of those game player personas based on the environment you're in.
[18:10.640 --> 18:16.880] And so when I think about structure, this is where I help people craft their game plan.
[18:16.880 --> 18:24.080] So I'd actually say just mix the big herodacious goals. It's just way too big, way too daunting.
[18:24.080 --> 18:30.960] Life moves very quickly. And we need to be able to move faster than a big herodacious goal.
[18:30.960 --> 18:36.880] Yeah. Now I will caveat it to say you still need an epic mission in life. So what do you
[18:36.880 --> 18:42.320] ultimately want? And there's two activities that I have people think about when it comes to epic
[18:42.320 --> 18:48.240] mission. The first is it's a bit macabre, but thinking about what do you want on your tombstone?
[18:49.200 --> 18:55.040] That impact. I was actually reading an article about the creator founder of Panera
[18:55.600 --> 19:02.240] that actually used that exercise to help him inspire action to build his restaurant business.
[19:03.040 --> 19:08.560] So really thinking about your ultimate finish line. What does that look like for you?
[19:08.560 --> 19:14.160] Right? The second is a Japanese concept called icky guy.
[19:14.560 --> 19:22.800] Yes, yes. Oh, it has been life changing for me. And it breaks down four things, right?
[19:22.800 --> 19:28.000] What are you good at doing? What do you love doing? Which are two very different things?
[19:28.720 --> 19:34.320] And then what does the world need or said differently? What problems exist that you would just
[19:34.320 --> 19:38.560] love to help support solving? And then what can you get paid to do?
[19:39.520 --> 19:44.240] Yeah. So here's what's interesting, David. Okay, so I'm imagining your audience and they're like,
[19:44.240 --> 19:51.120] oh, yeah, that's exciting. How do I get started? I would say look up an image of icky guy, pull it up,
[19:51.120 --> 19:58.080] and then pull up chat GPT and start putting in your answers because what I also find is hard
[19:58.800 --> 20:05.040] is to get a 50,000 view look at, well, now that I have all this data on this paper, what does it
[20:05.760 --> 20:11.680] mean? Because you got to find a sweet spot, right? The icky guy means reason for being, and it's the sweet
[20:11.680 --> 20:18.000] spot in which you play Connect 4 in each of those four quadrants line up to the sweet spot.
[20:18.000 --> 20:24.320] And that's what wakes you up with joy. Yeah, I love, yeah, I love, I love icky guy. And I actually have,
[20:24.960 --> 20:31.120] there's a blog post at wisegirls.com on the site that I wrote all about icky guy,
[20:31.920 --> 20:36.720] explaining how to do it. And I have a template that people can download from there.
[20:37.760 --> 20:44.720] And I actually just recently configured an icky guy inspired assessment
[20:46.320 --> 20:51.840] that's not live yet. It's on wisegirls, but it's not live yet. But for people listening,
[20:51.840 --> 20:59.120] if you want to check it out, shoot me an email, David at wisegirls.com, and I'll send you a link.
[20:59.120 --> 21:04.400] And I'll send you a link too, so you can try it. But it's basically, it takes all of the icky guy
[21:04.400 --> 21:12.480] questions. And I think it's more beneficial in this style. Like if you have like a form that has
[21:12.480 --> 21:20.800] a million questions, and again, it's, I base a lot of stuff off how my head operates, right? But
[21:20.800 --> 21:28.160] it's, I get overwhelmed by too many steps, and I don't do it. Or I abandon it. And so the way I created
[21:28.160 --> 21:32.480] is it's like, you know, just a few questions. It's like a couple questions at a time, and you kind
[21:32.480 --> 21:39.200] of just go through it. But I'm sure you're aware of that, you know, the strategies of gamification
[21:39.200 --> 21:43.520] when it comes to like filling out forms. Yeah, it's going to be quick. You guys see progress as
[21:43.520 --> 21:49.040] you're going through. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And I've been, I do appreciate
[21:49.040 --> 21:55.360] ChatGPT as a thought partner, right? Because you could even ask it to say, help me understand
[21:55.440 --> 21:59.520] my icky guy. What are the questions? You know, I've got Dave's form here. Like, how do I make sense of
[21:59.520 --> 22:05.200] this so that you can process with a thought partner if this feels like a daunting task? Because
[22:05.200 --> 22:09.120] sometimes it does feel like climbing Mount Everest. Like, what is my epic mission in life?
[22:10.000 --> 22:15.120] I do that a lot with icky guy or with icky guy with ChatGPT, where I've gotten to the point where I'm
[22:15.120 --> 22:20.480] talking to it now. Yeah. When I'm driving, I'll, I'll, I'll click on the microphone thing and
[22:20.480 --> 22:26.960] have a conversation with it. And it will give me like ideas or strategies or what have you.
[22:26.960 --> 22:32.400] And then I'll tell it, okay, I'm getting too overwhelmed and I'm driving. Can you create a PDF
[22:33.120 --> 22:38.560] checklist of everything we talked about? Like, the next steps of what I specifically need to do.
[22:38.560 --> 22:44.640] That's right. And then when I get back to my, my, you know, computer, I've got that document
[22:44.640 --> 22:49.520] waiting for me and I print it and then work from that. But it's very important also to include
[22:50.240 --> 22:58.000] because AI is so new. And a lot of people don't know much about it yet, even though sometimes when
[22:58.000 --> 23:02.880] you live in bubbles, you think everybody knows what you know and then you realize, oh, wait a minute.
[23:02.880 --> 23:07.920] No, that's not true. But when it comes to AI and I have a presentation and training about this
[23:07.920 --> 23:14.080] stuff too, a future fourth, but with AI, it's very important also for people not to share personal
[23:14.080 --> 23:22.480] information using AI. Because like how we got burned on social media, I mean, you're paying with
[23:22.480 --> 23:27.680] your privacy. I mean, tragedy BT. Yeah, I mean, there's a pro account. It's like 20 bucks a month
[23:27.680 --> 23:33.200] or whatever. And that's what I pay for. But I'm still, you know, I'm careful with giving it too
[23:33.200 --> 23:40.720] much personal information. So there's that point. And then the other point is that I have one of my
[23:40.720 --> 23:47.440] best friends in the world will always answer like he knows the answer of a question when he really
[23:47.440 --> 23:53.680] doesn't. He'll say like, yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure it's blah, blah, blah. And pretty sure it's
[23:53.680 --> 23:59.200] like, wait a minute. No, or not. That's great. I've been working on an idea about writing an article
[23:59.200 --> 24:05.440] about this idea of like the three most important words these days is I don't know. It's like,
[24:05.440 --> 24:10.400] instead of like curiosity. Yeah. Yeah. And if you're like a big popular podcaster and you're
[24:10.400 --> 24:15.760] platforming some freak instead, like just like say, I don't know instead of claiming you know what
[24:15.760 --> 24:23.520] they're talking about. And, and so this is, this is really key because chat GBT also will not,
[24:23.520 --> 24:29.760] if it doesn't know the answer, it will just give you the answer. And, and, and so be careful with
[24:29.840 --> 24:36.640] that, you know, buyer beware because yeah, it's, it's not always spot on. Even the references it
[24:36.640 --> 24:43.040] points out sometimes. Oh, yeah, study by a XYZ from 1999. And then you look it up and it doesn't
[24:43.040 --> 24:47.680] exist. It just made it right. So be careful with that too. I think that's a great warning to put
[24:47.680 --> 24:51.840] out there. And that's why I appreciate it as a thought partner to get me to thinking because I
[24:51.840 --> 24:59.120] can't trust it in its entirety. It's still pretty new. Yeah. But okay. So we've got let me go back to
[24:59.120 --> 25:04.880] for natural explorers. Well, really any of these game player personas, I say, you know, forget the
[25:04.880 --> 25:11.040] big Harry audacious goals. Yes, have a true north or an epic mission that's driving your passions.
[25:11.040 --> 25:18.640] But then I help people narrow them down into 90 day quests. So if you think about the world,
[25:18.640 --> 25:25.920] nature, there's seasons in most places in the world, right? So things change naturally in about
[25:25.920 --> 25:33.520] three months as a year progresses. And every time I've built game strategies over 10 years,
[25:33.520 --> 25:41.440] 72,000 people have played the games I've built 90 days is the sweet spot of impact. After 90 days,
[25:41.440 --> 25:48.080] it starts to become business as usual or we outsmart ourselves. And we're like, yeah, no, I don't
[25:48.080 --> 25:52.720] need to do that anymore. You know, that sticky note that was helpful for me. It's not helping anymore.
[25:52.720 --> 26:00.480] I don't even look at it. So another timeframe to be aware of is what I saw happen at 21 days.
[26:00.480 --> 26:06.160] So you know, there's general research that sources have said it's true sources have debunked it
[26:06.160 --> 26:12.240] that talk about 21 days to build a habit. Yeah. So what I have found is it takes 21 days to build a
[26:12.240 --> 26:20.080] routine. It takes 21 days of consistency for you to not have to remember so hard to do the
[26:20.080 --> 26:26.880] thing. It's it's in your routine. You still have to think about it, but it's not as hard. So 21 days
[26:26.880 --> 26:31.760] of consistency and then up to 90 days after 90 days, you have to switch your strategy.
[26:33.200 --> 26:38.800] You have to because we outsmart ourselves as humans or we get distracted, whatever that quest
[26:38.960 --> 26:45.120] we were on may no longer serve us anymore. And so that's where I feel so powerful about this game
[26:45.120 --> 26:52.000] design strategy is that it helps people make progress and feel success because they're moving
[26:52.000 --> 26:58.560] forward in 90 day increments. So it allows for changes. So backing up a little bit and that makes
[26:58.560 --> 27:06.960] so much sense too. I'm curious for your background, were you like a gamer as a kid or were you a
[27:06.960 --> 27:13.040] developer or were you like what are both like what where did you get this excitement about gaming?
[27:13.520 --> 27:20.240] Yeah. Nope. I'm not a gamer. So actually, so I'm on the top tier of a millennial. I'll say that.
[27:20.240 --> 27:26.160] I'll give you age range roughly roughly, right? But we did not grew up with Super Mario and Nintendo
[27:26.160 --> 27:32.560] or PlayStation in the house. We had a couple computer games that we would play. So I got involved
[27:32.560 --> 27:41.360] in this 10 years ago because a leader at Marriott that I was working with asked, how can we get our
[27:41.360 --> 27:47.840] hourly associates engaged? How can we get engaged with their hearts and their minds? And can we use
[27:47.840 --> 27:54.400] games to do it? So if you look at the gamification history, there's books we're starting to come out in
[27:54.400 --> 28:01.920] 2014 about this topic. And actually, I haven't even explained what is gamification. But it's just a
[28:01.920 --> 28:07.360] fancy way of saying turning something to a game that isn't a game to begin with. So applying
[28:07.360 --> 28:14.160] game mechanics to something that's not a game. And so what he said was change management essentially,
[28:14.160 --> 28:19.680] right? How do you inspire our frontline hourly associates? How do you get their hearts and minds
[28:19.680 --> 28:26.880] engaged? And can we use games to do it? And I've always been interested in supporting people
[28:27.440 --> 28:33.360] in their roles. And because we spend more than twice our life at work than with our loved ones.
[28:34.320 --> 28:40.640] And so for me, it's always been an inspiration of how can I make that work environment, a winning
[28:40.640 --> 28:47.600] environment? So you did it more on the employee side. I did. Yeah. Yeah. And so I then just dove into
[28:47.600 --> 28:52.960] any piece of research that existed around the psychology of game design, the mechanics,
[28:52.960 --> 28:57.840] researching and partnering with other people. And then that's how I came to build some beta
[28:57.840 --> 29:02.480] tested games that kept time and time again, getting the results we were looking for.
[29:02.480 --> 29:08.560] Do you gamify stuff with, and of course, you know, he's not present. So we're not going to be mean
[29:08.560 --> 29:13.520] or throw them under the bus at all. But for your husband, like, are there ways that you gamify
[29:13.520 --> 29:17.920] things for him to help him stay focused on tasks and things like that? Or
[29:18.560 --> 29:24.400] Or that's up to him to it. You know, you got to let each person design their own strategies.
[29:24.400 --> 29:28.480] So I mean, he does, he doesn't incorporate some of those things to stay focused and
[29:28.480 --> 29:33.680] given like little milestones to work on and see the progress. Because part, part of the challenge,
[29:33.680 --> 29:42.880] I think, is that it's easy to see your faults. It's easy, it's easy to forget that you do really
[29:42.880 --> 29:49.680] cool things. And so one aspect of this is tracking your progress, having some way to prove to yourself
[29:49.680 --> 29:54.320] and build your confidence and getting things done. And that's very much a piece of the gamification,
[29:54.320 --> 29:59.440] right? Because then you can visualize it if it's a if it's a game or virtual thing. You can then
[29:59.440 --> 30:05.840] gamify it and start to earn points, whether it's like collecting virtual tokens or Pokemon Go
[30:05.840 --> 30:11.360] or something. But we've used it for financial, yeah, we've used it for financial savings,
[30:11.360 --> 30:16.800] right? Just kind of like creating that temperature check board of like progress to see like all
[30:16.800 --> 30:21.040] of the hard work that we're putting in. And are we making our, you know, savings come together?
[30:21.040 --> 30:25.120] Yeah, and it helps us because then we're visualizing it too. I'll give you an example, like my wife,
[30:25.120 --> 30:34.160] he's neurotypical, created a, she had like a paper calendar on the fridge. And she keeps track of
[30:34.160 --> 30:42.880] like all the family stuff that we're doing on that, on that calendar. And I'm, as much as I love
[30:42.880 --> 30:49.440] analog, and I do, I'm a big believer in it, I am kind of a digital, not native, because I'm older
[30:49.440 --> 30:55.520] than that. But anyway, yeah, but I'm big in a digital. And so like, for example, and I was a speaker
[30:55.520 --> 31:01.600] for Google for like six years. So like I know digital really well. And so I have a Google calendar
[31:01.600 --> 31:05.680] for work stuff. And then I have another one for Y squirrels. And then I have another one for
[31:05.680 --> 31:10.960] family. And you can turn them on and off to see what's on and what's off. So you can overlay them.
[31:12.160 --> 31:17.520] And things started getting great when my wife finally agreed, you know, she wants to keep the
[31:17.520 --> 31:23.600] paper one awesome. The kids might look at it. But by creating the digital one, I can so simply add
[31:23.600 --> 31:28.560] that I'm, I'm going out tonight or that I'm, you know, so she knows I won't be home or vice versa.
[31:28.560 --> 31:34.080] She can add in say she's going to meet friends or whatever. So and having a shared calendar has
[31:34.080 --> 31:40.400] been a godsend for us. Yes, for sure. That's like part of the gamification. It's maybe not so much
[31:40.400 --> 31:46.480] gamification, because you're not really measuring and seeing, but you know the success is that I show
[31:46.480 --> 31:50.480] up where I'm supposed to be at a certain time or vice versa. Right. Well, there is an element of
[31:50.480 --> 31:57.040] gamification there because it is a tracking system. You do need a way to track to show the scoreboard.
[31:57.040 --> 32:01.520] You know, there's the the theory rate of if there wasn't a scoreboard on a football
[32:02.240 --> 32:07.600] field, would you actually watch that game? Probably not the game. You know, what you'd be doing is
[32:07.600 --> 32:13.200] talking with the other people. So if the scoreboard's gone, maybe the dominator and the achiever of
[32:13.200 --> 32:18.400] you like who's winning would calm down and you turn around to the left and right of you to explore
[32:18.400 --> 32:23.120] like, well, what brought you here today? Like how you know, actually connecting with people versus
[32:23.120 --> 32:28.160] watching the game play. And I'm laughing too, because being the connector as we've discussed without
[32:28.160 --> 32:34.640] your assessment, I got I got I got I got scolded at a band at a football game at my kid's school
[32:35.440 --> 32:39.280] by a woman behind me. I think I've shared this story before, but she slapped me on the back
[32:39.760 --> 32:44.480] because I was on my phone. She's not like hard, but this older woman, she kind of hits me on the back
[32:44.480 --> 32:49.920] and she's like, you know, I'm in the sack. She's like, you all need to be watching the game, you
[32:49.920 --> 32:56.800] know, and not looking at phone. And I was like, lady, I'm here for the band. Both my kids are in
[32:56.800 --> 33:02.240] marching band. I'm here for the band and they're on a break right now. Yeah. And I don't even speak
[33:02.240 --> 33:07.120] football. I don't even know what's going on. When I go to games, I'm literally talking to everybody
[33:07.120 --> 33:13.280] around me. I have no clue what the score is. Nor do I care. And I always tell people all I care is
[33:13.280 --> 33:19.600] that nobody gets hurt. Yes. Great. Yeah. I don't care. The perfect example of an environment
[33:19.920 --> 33:24.960] that triggers a different game player persona, right, depending on how you prefer to play. So yeah,
[33:24.960 --> 33:30.480] yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we did, my husband and I did build a little mini impromptu
[33:30.480 --> 33:36.640] vacation where we decided just to drive. We didn't have any agenda, right? So we got the explorer
[33:36.640 --> 33:40.640] components going on it. And we were like, ooh, that looks fun. Let's go explore that restaurant
[33:40.640 --> 33:45.280] there, right? And so we just had great conversation because we were exploring different things. We
[33:45.360 --> 33:52.320] didn't have an agenda. Now, my mind wants an agenda. Yeah. My mind wants a plan. That's how I
[33:52.320 --> 33:58.240] just operate. But it was so much fun to just reform, connect with each other and just explore
[33:58.240 --> 34:03.360] whatever came our way on the path that we were on. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. And my wife and I
[34:03.360 --> 34:09.840] were similar. I mean, she's incredible at planning these wonderful trips. But and we're both,
[34:09.840 --> 34:14.480] we met, you know, backpacking in Ireland back in the day. So we've we've we love travel.
[34:15.360 --> 34:19.120] But I'm very much along for the ride that way too. Unless we're doing something like that,
[34:19.120 --> 34:24.080] like let's just go and drive and whatever. We can ask chat GPT for recommendations a lot of
[34:24.080 --> 34:29.520] the way, which I actually have done. Oh, fun. Yeah, it's cool because like if I have to be like,
[34:29.520 --> 34:34.880] if I'm in like I was in San Francisco and I had to be across the city at a different
[34:34.880 --> 34:40.080] location from the hotel. So I asked chat GPT between this location and that location, tell me
[34:40.080 --> 34:46.000] where like the cool bookstores are and the artsy kind of vibe places. And it replied and gave me
[34:46.000 --> 34:50.160] like all the names. And then I said, which I said, if I'm driving from this point to that point,
[34:50.160 --> 34:55.520] which one will I hit first? And it gave me like an itinerary basically. It was pretty cool. But
[34:55.520 --> 35:00.480] that's awesome. That's very cool. So let's talk more about gamification. So yeah. Yeah. So
[35:00.560 --> 35:04.480] all right, I've gone over the fact that there are four main ways of people play games and it's
[35:04.480 --> 35:10.000] really the environment that will trigger one of those four. You'll have a typical preference.
[35:10.000 --> 35:14.800] You'll default to one more than the other, but you can bounce around all four of them. And then
[35:14.800 --> 35:20.080] when it comes to actually gamifying your goals, thinking about that true North epic mission and
[35:20.080 --> 35:26.640] then breaking them down into quarterly quests of what can I accomplish within these next 90 days?
[35:27.200 --> 35:33.760] Usually a first quest is pure discovery. Like I have no clue. So I'm just going to go on this
[35:33.760 --> 35:39.760] discovery quest of what could I do? And then the next question after that is to identify what is
[35:39.760 --> 35:47.280] the consistent action or behavior that I should do to help achieve that quest? And this is where it
[35:47.280 --> 35:51.040] gets sticky because people are like, well, what does that look like? And again, you know, in that first
[35:51.040 --> 35:55.680] discovery quest, it could look like anything. You're just trying it out. Like so for example, if you
[35:55.680 --> 36:02.240] want to try a new organizational tool or strategy, you know, your wife has the calendar,
[36:02.240 --> 36:09.280] you're going digital, but in that phase of 90 days, you could be testing out. Does it really work
[36:09.280 --> 36:14.160] to put it on paper or does it work better to do it digital? And so for 90 days, you'll just try
[36:14.160 --> 36:19.360] these things to see which one works. And then again, you kind of have to sometimes outsmart yourself
[36:19.360 --> 36:24.880] because it'll work for a while. And then you'll need to find a new tool that works because we're
[36:24.960 --> 36:32.240] just bored of the other. But I'll give you an example. So I'm gamifying writing a book right now.
[36:32.240 --> 36:36.160] So I mentioned I'm writing a book on how to gamify your goals. It's actually going to be a
[36:36.160 --> 36:42.320] choose your own adventure based on your game persona. You'll pick which character you are and
[36:42.320 --> 36:50.480] follow that narrative and accomplish different challenges. And so I have a 136 week streak
[36:50.960 --> 36:58.080] where I am consistently taking action. I'm doing one thing every week to make progress on this book.
[36:58.640 --> 37:04.160] So it could be writing. It could be researching. It could be promoting and building my beta testing
[37:04.160 --> 37:10.800] group and you know, my marketing launch strategy. And so it's taking me a while because I have a
[37:10.800 --> 37:16.640] full-time job. You know, I'm an entrepreneur. I'm trying to, you know, pay the bills. And so
[37:17.280 --> 37:22.640] the important part of this is when you build a streak, it comes with some seriousness. Like, have
[37:22.640 --> 37:29.040] you ever done Duolingo, Dave? I'm trying to look down. Because they're really good at streaks. But
[37:29.040 --> 37:35.280] the downside is when you break a streak, it can be demoralizing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely can.
[37:35.280 --> 37:39.280] So it can move you forward because you don't want to break the streak. But you have to make sure
[37:39.280 --> 37:45.040] that streak keeps serving you. So in this case, I have a really strong epic mission of getting
[37:45.040 --> 37:49.840] this book in the world. And so the streak is helping me continue to do one thing because it's
[37:49.840 --> 37:57.600] very easy to be like, ah, not this week. I have too many other things to do. And that accountability
[37:57.600 --> 38:07.920] piece is essential for ADHDers, I know. My book was published by a traditional publisher,
[38:08.640 --> 38:14.640] Pearson. And I wrote it with undiagnosed ADHD, which is a bit of a miracle. It's like
[38:14.640 --> 38:23.600] 80,000 word book. But, um, but I wrote the book because I had contractual deadlines. Like,
[38:23.600 --> 38:29.680] I signed a contract. I had an advance from the publisher. So like, I legally had to deliver.
[38:29.680 --> 38:35.280] And so I had these dates now, ADHDers, again, generalizing here, but we tend to leave things
[38:35.280 --> 38:40.320] to last minute and then knock it out of the park. Oh, yeah. So we like, we may like do like,
[38:40.560 --> 38:44.960] we just, yeah, we'll leave it. And then, and then, yeah, anyway, so we don't miss the deadlines
[38:44.960 --> 38:49.440] necessarily. Although some people might, but I was pretty good with that. But my next book that I've
[38:49.440 --> 38:55.200] been working on for a couple of years now, it seems I'm like 18,000 words in. And I'm just like
[38:56.800 --> 39:04.080] buffer. That's right. Yeah. When you don't have that deadline imposed on you, you need to self
[39:04.080 --> 39:08.480] impose a deadline. And that's where I feel the value of a streak is because it's got some
[39:08.480 --> 39:14.000] seriousness of don't break it because then you got to start all over. But then an achiever might
[39:14.000 --> 39:18.560] say like, okay, well, now I'm going to go after my personal best, right? And try to beat the last,
[39:18.560 --> 39:23.520] you know, a number of days and type of things, but that that can be hard. It can be difficult to
[39:23.520 --> 39:31.200] remotivate yourself, but it's a tactic. So I like to go after streaks within that 90 day quest.
[39:31.200 --> 39:38.080] And then do a hard line. Let me revisit. Do I still need this streak? Do I still want to go after
[39:38.080 --> 39:44.640] this quest? Or do I need to switch gears? So as I develop my business, I actually create quarterly
[39:44.640 --> 39:50.400] quests for my business development. And as an entrepreneur, I have to switch hats so many times.
[39:50.400 --> 39:55.680] So, you know, Q one, I might need to double down on sales. Q two, I might need to double down on
[39:55.680 --> 40:01.680] execution, right? And so I'll switch my strategy. Because you're a seller printer, right?
[40:02.400 --> 40:07.920] Or yeah, and me too, I often tell people that like one of the biggest things I've learned
[40:07.920 --> 40:13.120] about myself since being diagnosed and treated for ADHD is that I'm not created everything.
[40:14.160 --> 40:20.160] And it's the key point here is that I wasn't so big, big-headed enough to think that I was.
[40:20.160 --> 40:26.400] I never really thought about it. But I realized that, you know, I'm very good at delivering
[40:26.400 --> 40:32.160] for my clients. I'm great at doing the work. And I'm great at, I'm good at sales,
[40:32.160 --> 40:36.000] but I'm not great at business development. I'm not great at like having a line of people waiting
[40:36.000 --> 40:40.320] to talk to me so that I can see if I'm a fit and then ultimately sell something.
[40:41.680 --> 40:47.440] So where do you see that as like, well, first of all, what about you being the the achiever?
[40:47.440 --> 40:53.680] Achiever. Yeah, so you're setting goals and you're being diligent about sticking to those
[40:53.680 --> 41:01.600] strategies, gamifying them for yourself. Where are the weak spots for you in getting to that point?
[41:01.600 --> 41:07.360] All right, so I have two stories I'll share. So last year, I went on a quest. So from October to
[41:07.360 --> 41:14.240] December, I went on a quest to overcome my imposter. I was just sick and tired of that tiny little voice.
[41:14.240 --> 41:18.880] I mean, I've been doing this for so long, right? I've been doing gamification strategies. I do
[41:18.880 --> 41:23.760] leadership development, but yet I still have that tiny voice that's like, you're not good enough,
[41:23.760 --> 41:29.840] you know, and maybe that's the high achiever in me. And so by the way, writing a book is like
[41:29.840 --> 41:37.440] gasoline on the imposter. Oh, oh, it points out every possible failure or inadequacy that you have,
[41:38.080 --> 41:44.960] for sure. So for 90 days, this is what I did. My quest was overcome my imposter. For 90 days,
[41:44.960 --> 41:50.400] I focused on doing at least one thing every week that made me uncomfortable and to do it anyways.
[41:51.040 --> 41:57.120] And what I found and it always makes me laugh because I have epiphanies and I'm like, wait,
[41:57.120 --> 42:02.720] how long has it been? And it is freaking always 21 days into the thing. So I'm like, oh my gosh,
[42:02.720 --> 42:07.040] it's been three weeks. I've had this light bulb moment. And the light bulb moment for me, Dave,
[42:07.040 --> 42:14.080] was the fact that my imposter will never go away. And here's why. Here's why. Because I'm continually
[42:14.080 --> 42:21.280] moving with growth. And every time you step out of your comfort zone and you experience growth,
[42:21.280 --> 42:26.320] you feel uncomfortable because you don't have the skill sets yet. And so it's this continual
[42:26.320 --> 42:33.280] leveling up in life. And so I realize going back to Super Mario that my imposter is like Bowser
[42:33.280 --> 42:38.720] at the end of the level. He always shows up and he's going to show up right when you're about to
[42:38.720 --> 42:47.760] level up. So it's actually a good sign that you're growing. Yeah. Well, the flip side is the
[42:47.760 --> 42:54.000] Dunning Krueger effect, right? Where you don't know what you don't know, but you think you know.
[42:54.880 --> 43:02.480] And that's more dangerous. I would rather like yourself. I'd rather hit these imposter periods
[43:03.200 --> 43:08.640] where I'm feeling doubt, self-doubt, or obviously I don't want to feel that. But there are those
[43:08.640 --> 43:16.080] who are and I would imagine they're more the dominators perhaps that don't. They're just like,
[43:16.080 --> 43:23.680] God, sales and they go and sell. Like an example, I met a friend for breakfast years ago. I hadn't
[43:23.680 --> 43:29.360] seen him in a long time. And it was kind of this rural area. And after breakfast, I hadn't seen him
[43:29.360 --> 43:34.720] a long time. But he's just kind of kind of obnoxious sales kind of guy. And he's a close friend.
[43:34.720 --> 43:39.520] I've known him forever. And but he's always been kind of obnoxious. And he's been great at sales.
[43:39.520 --> 43:42.640] And I said, so what do you, what do you got planned for the rest of the day? And he's like, well,
[43:42.640 --> 43:49.840] you know, there's, I noticed a bunch of like warehouses from here to home. So I'm going to stop in
[43:49.840 --> 43:54.800] at them on the way home and see what business I can drum up. And I'm like, what? Like you're just
[43:55.440 --> 44:00.640] just going to call. You're just going to go in and try to sell stuff. I'm like, he's like, yeah,
[44:00.640 --> 44:06.400] yeah. And I'm like, man, like I wish I could do that. But yeah, but I also don't want to be that guy
[44:06.400 --> 44:13.520] either. Yeah, totally get that. Yeah. So for 90 days, I was working, I'm conquering my imposter.
[44:13.520 --> 44:18.880] And my learning was it will never go away. But now I don't look at my imposter with such fear.
[44:18.880 --> 44:23.760] I'm second guessing. You know, because when you feel that imposter, you already feel bad. And then
[44:23.760 --> 44:28.960] you feel bad again, because you're like, why do I feel like this again? Right? So now I just look
[44:28.960 --> 44:34.080] at it as that means I'm about to level up in whatever it is I'm doing in life. And that's really
[44:34.080 --> 44:40.160] exciting. So that was an example. And I had to do that for my business development. The other
[44:40.160 --> 44:46.320] quest that I'm on actually right now is to become better at sales. So kind of like you, I'm not
[44:46.320 --> 44:52.320] that natural sales person. And I don't love the whole sleazy tactics of sales. I want to
[44:53.200 --> 44:58.080] more organic. Like let me help you understand what I know. And if it could help you accomplish your
[44:58.080 --> 45:04.480] goals, right? And so here's how I'm doing it. I'm actually launching a goal getter community
[45:04.480 --> 45:09.680] in March with like mines who are wanting to go after the goals and set these quarterly quests.
[45:10.240 --> 45:17.840] And so one individual that is going to join is a sales individual. And so another aspect of games
[45:17.840 --> 45:23.120] is throwing games you can play by yourself. But many games you need to play with others in order
[45:23.280 --> 45:28.960] to finish. Like I think about even the movie Jumanji, right? If you watch the newer ones by any chance,
[45:29.680 --> 45:36.320] you have to solve the game by working together. Yeah. And so strategic partnerships are really
[45:36.320 --> 45:41.200] important. And so he's going to go after I'm not sure what quest yet. We're going to figure it out.
[45:41.200 --> 45:47.200] But he's helping me on my quest to level up my skills. And I asked like what books would you
[45:47.200 --> 45:55.360] recommend? And ultimately, I know it's my mindset around sales that I need to just edit. And so
[45:55.360 --> 46:00.880] he's my goal is that he's going to help me through that as we quest over these next 90 days.
[46:00.880 --> 46:07.440] But yeah, yeah. When I was talking to Holly, Dr. Holly White on the show. Actually, I've
[46:07.440 --> 46:12.160] mentioned it to a couple different people. But when I was working more in the sort of tech startup
[46:12.960 --> 46:18.160] that space that was working for a business accelerator entrepreneur at the entrepreneur center
[46:18.160 --> 46:23.040] here in Nashville years ago. And I organized a it was called co-founders speed dating.
[46:24.160 --> 46:29.600] And the idea was to like bring founders together to kind of rapidly your speed dating. So you're
[46:29.600 --> 46:35.920] getting into each other and what ideas you have for a business instead of like anything romantic
[46:35.920 --> 46:41.280] or anything. And you're basically talking business about the ideas you have and the ideas to like
[46:41.840 --> 46:51.040] connect sort of the the the MBA sales type people perhaps with the more maybe extroverted with the
[46:51.040 --> 46:58.160] more introverted developers who you know could build the thing. So like, you know, everybody talks
[46:58.160 --> 47:04.240] about, you know, Steve Jobs and nobody talks about Steve Wozniak. Right. Right. So and the like
[47:04.240 --> 47:09.280] Wozniak, I mean, Apple wouldn't exist without Steve Wozniak. But nobody talks about Steve Wozniak.
[47:09.280 --> 47:14.560] They talk about Steve Jobs, which is okay. And he's in the background and whatever. But I really am
[47:15.280 --> 47:20.800] starting to think about this idea more and more that how because as it pertains to ADHD too,
[47:20.800 --> 47:27.360] it's almost like we need like a neurotypical partner business partner, you know. Yes. Well,
[47:27.360 --> 47:33.440] think about this thing. Think about this for a second. So like stereotypically CEOs are more
[47:33.440 --> 47:39.040] the visionary big picture futuristic thinkers, right. And then you've got your COOs who are more
[47:39.040 --> 47:44.960] operational process and systems and things like that. Because actually what you said mean says a lot
[47:44.960 --> 47:51.840] when I look at the partnerships I've had in my life that magic truly has happened. They are more
[47:51.840 --> 47:58.080] that creative person because I have more strategy and structure in my strengths. And I love gallop
[47:58.080 --> 48:04.240] strengths finder to identify like your natural talents. So I have strategy, focus, you know, all
[48:04.240 --> 48:10.480] these go getter strategies, you know, in my top five. And I find that ideators, futuristic folks
[48:10.480 --> 48:15.440] and the visionaries I partner really well with. So what you just said, I think there's a lot of
[48:15.440 --> 48:21.520] validity to whether you have ADHD or not. If you are creative and you're always coming up with new
[48:21.520 --> 48:27.440] ideas, find somebody who's got more of a structured like project management background or something,
[48:27.440 --> 48:32.960] right. And then the the brilliance you'll be able to create together will be amazing.
[48:32.960 --> 48:37.680] Yeah, but it's hard, right? Like it's hard to find that chocolate and peanut butter. You know,
[48:37.680 --> 48:44.240] it's it's it's it's it's not I would say it's even probably easier to date. You know, where you can
[48:44.240 --> 48:50.560] I mean, I haven't I haven't done that in a long, long time. Nor have I. Yeah, thank god. I don't
[48:50.560 --> 48:55.360] I would swipe the wrong direction or something. Actually funny funny story because I wrote a book
[48:55.360 --> 48:59.520] about networking. And I'm very passionate about networking and bringing people together and things.
[48:59.520 --> 49:05.760] I I and because of being the the nerd that I am, I try all the new apps and things and I'm sure
[49:05.760 --> 49:12.400] when Bumble was introduced, it was, you know, women's it's sort of a dating app where the woman kind
[49:12.400 --> 49:18.400] of flips the woman's mainly in controls. The woman, the female person using it chooses the men
[49:18.400 --> 49:24.960] ultimately or a same-sex partner or whatever. And but it also had like this networking
[49:24.960 --> 49:30.800] business professional component to it. So I installed it to check it out. And right away,
[49:30.800 --> 49:36.320] my friend's ex-wife reaches out to me and says, Dave, private message like, I didn't know your
[49:36.320 --> 49:42.080] single now. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
[49:42.160 --> 49:45.920] happily married, very happily married, 25 years. No, no, no, no. And I was like,
[49:45.920 --> 49:50.320] delete, delete, delete, delete, yeah, yeah, kill, kill the app. And then like as soon as my wife came
[49:50.320 --> 49:54.640] home, I'm like, honey, we've got to talk. It's like, what if she finds out? And it's like, no. So
[49:54.640 --> 50:00.160] I like, I had to like sit her down. Okay, listen. It was just, I mean, a terrible mistake to it. Yeah,
[50:00.160 --> 50:05.360] yeah, I swear. Um, anyway, so sorry to take a step back. No, but you know what? I'll, I'll, I'll
[50:05.360 --> 50:09.440] double click on that rabbit hole for a second and just talk about networking because I actually,
[50:09.440 --> 50:15.040] so I was unemployed for eight months during the pandemic. And I mentioned gamifying my
[50:15.040 --> 50:21.040] unemployment. And so the, the name of the game was to find a job. And I actually found one in,
[50:21.040 --> 50:29.360] in three months, 90 days. Here's what I did. It was a nightly networking. And so my streak was every
[50:29.360 --> 50:36.160] week, reach out to five people, five people every week. And that's uncomfortable because who wants
[50:36.160 --> 50:40.960] to really say you're unemployed and looking for a job, right? But you've got to be bold and go
[50:40.960 --> 50:48.640] after it. And so after 90 days, it was kind of a miraculous, but I was able to find a job with
[50:48.640 --> 50:53.280] that streak of networking because it's all about who you know. And what that, that's what I was going
[50:53.280 --> 50:57.760] to ask the five people that you're reaching out to, these, these friends, colleagues or strangers.
[50:57.760 --> 51:03.360] It was everybody. Yes, I did people who I knew first to kind of build my confidence and saying,
[51:03.360 --> 51:07.680] you know, here I'm looking for a job. Here's what I'm looking for, things like that. And then I
[51:07.680 --> 51:12.320] actually kept a list of who I reached out to because many times I'd have to go back and say,
[51:12.320 --> 51:16.480] hey, I'm still looking, you know, and that's the worst feeling when you are looking for a job.
[51:17.040 --> 51:21.120] But then I would also reach out to people I'm linked in and say, hey, could we do a coffee chat?
[51:21.120 --> 51:26.720] You're in the industry that I've been in or I'm trying to get into. And you know, I, I have such
[51:26.720 --> 51:33.200] faith in humanity. Like there's, there's a lot of challenges in the world period. But when I was
[51:33.200 --> 51:41.600] unemployed, so many people were kind to offer their time. And it just warmed my heart to know that
[51:41.600 --> 51:45.760] there's so many good people out there that are willing to help you if you just ask.
[51:46.480 --> 51:50.560] And getting back to the dating analogy. And I, of course, I wrote a book about networking, right?
[51:50.560 --> 51:54.480] So like this is something near and dear to my heart. And in fact, the coffee strategy actually
[51:54.480 --> 52:01.440] works really well. I've done it myself where you do that. You say, I'm, I'm either, I mean, it helps
[52:01.440 --> 52:07.040] if you're a student or if you're like new to the town or a city, but you, or, but either way,
[52:07.040 --> 52:10.560] you could reach out. Yeah, like you said, reach out cold and just say, like, I would love to buy you
[52:10.560 --> 52:15.440] a coffee and just take 10 minutes of your time. I'll come in your office to learn about your industry
[52:15.440 --> 52:21.760] because I'd like to, you know, yeah. And then you go not under the guys that you're looking for a job
[52:21.760 --> 52:26.560] nor even mentioning that necessarily. But when you meet with that person, that 10 minute meeting,
[52:26.560 --> 52:30.720] if you're using active listening when you're speaking with them, they're going to do all the talking.
[52:31.920 --> 52:37.120] And you bring them the coffee cup with the stir stick with the sugar and all that. And what happens is
[52:38.160 --> 52:43.760] they may not hire you necessarily. But at the end of that meeting, you say, Hey, who else in the
[52:43.760 --> 52:48.480] industry should I meet? And then you ask them for an introduction. So they introduce you to
[52:48.480 --> 52:53.520] somebody else in the industry. And then when you leave, you send them a thank you card in the mail
[52:53.520 --> 52:59.920] because it's better than email. And what happens is that coffee cup sits on that person's desk all day.
[53:00.640 --> 53:06.160] And maybe even the next morning, and it reminds them all day of encounter with you and that you're
[53:06.160 --> 53:10.400] a person of your word because you actually brought the coffee like you said you would. That's right.
[53:10.400 --> 53:16.560] So this is a great. I like that. Yeah. For, yeah, for finding a job and things. Yeah, I love that you
[53:16.560 --> 53:21.120] did that. That's awesome. I have two fun more things to tell you about now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[53:21.120 --> 53:25.840] Okay, because I think we could talk about networking all day long. So my first attempt at the
[53:25.840 --> 53:32.000] networking too was just to send out into the LinkedIn world. Hey, network, who do you recommend
[53:32.000 --> 53:39.040] that I reach out to? And actually through that strategy, I did land a job with a mentor of mine said,
[53:39.040 --> 53:43.440] Hey, you know, these handful of people I really love following. Why don't you connect with them?
[53:43.440 --> 53:48.640] And one of those people ended up having a coffee chat with. And at the end of our virtual
[53:48.640 --> 53:53.840] hour discussion, he was hiring me as a consultant. That's great. Yeah. So it really does work.
[53:54.400 --> 53:59.040] Just to be clear was the message that you said, Hey, I'm looking for whatever. Like, did you send that
[53:59.040 --> 54:04.800] as a post online? I did. I said, yeah, I said LinkedIn network, you know, get the algorithm
[54:04.800 --> 54:09.760] sends you the same handful of people, right? On your feet. I was like, I'm looking to expand
[54:09.760 --> 54:15.280] my network. And I'm just curious, who do you follow? Who do you feel inspired by? And then
[54:15.280 --> 54:19.920] based on that, I looked at someone and had a pretty nice warm introduction at that point, right?
[54:19.920 --> 54:25.120] Like so and so recommended that I reach out to you. Can we have a chat? And then it just
[54:25.120 --> 54:31.280] organically ended up into a job offer at the end of that. So there's that piece. And then the one
[54:31.280 --> 54:37.440] other thing I wanted to mention to you, hold on, let's just escape to my mind. It was about LinkedIn
[54:37.440 --> 54:45.280] networking reaching out to everybody with a post saying you're looking for. And you're talking
[54:45.360 --> 54:51.280] about networking, networking strategies. Oh my goodness. Getting the job, getting people to help you
[54:51.280 --> 54:58.560] maybe or was it through messaging maybe like through private messages? It's completely escaped my mind.
[54:58.560 --> 55:04.640] That's okay. That's okay. No, I mean, I think I think all these things, that's why LinkedIn is
[55:04.640 --> 55:11.280] such a valuable social network. And probably the only one worth spending much time on these days
[55:11.280 --> 55:16.320] anyway, is because of that and building relationships. And that's why I like a big
[55:16.320 --> 55:22.320] proponent of LinkedIn. But yeah, no, and just looking at the time, I'm like, oh my god,
[55:22.320 --> 55:27.120] our time is flowing by. I know. And actually, sorry, I just remembered what it was because you said,
[55:27.120 --> 55:32.720] you said send a thank you note, which I absolutely agree on. But I'm uncomfortable asking people
[55:32.720 --> 55:39.520] for their home addresses. So a clever solution that I want to share that is getting really great
[55:40.000 --> 55:45.760] feedback from is that I either have their phone number that I can text, right, or their email.
[55:45.760 --> 55:52.080] But what I'll do is I'll hand write a note with like my name on the top of it, just like a nice note
[55:52.080 --> 55:58.400] card. And then I take, I take a picture of it. And then I email that or I send that via text. So
[55:58.400 --> 56:03.920] it's like you're writing a handwritten note, but in more of a digital, like safe, you know, environment.
[56:03.920 --> 56:08.640] And people are just blown away. They're like, oh my gosh, the fact that you went that little extra
[56:08.640 --> 56:15.280] mile is just means the world. So I'll give you another tip to depending who you're networking with,
[56:15.920 --> 56:21.840] like a friend of mine's pretty high up at a creative agency in Toronto. And I didn't know him very
[56:21.840 --> 56:26.480] well at first. So I read his book and I noticed in his book, he talked about how much he loves BBQ
[56:26.480 --> 56:32.640] chips and diet coke. And so I reached out to him and we had like a couple hours mentoring kind of
[56:32.640 --> 56:36.800] a session where he gave me some advice and stuff. So as a thank you, I sent him, I bought
[56:37.600 --> 56:44.400] on Coke's website, I bought a personalized diet coke bottle for him. And then so, so Coke
[56:44.400 --> 56:49.200] shipped that to me. And then and he's in Canada. So he doesn't have his good BBQ chips as I do in
[56:49.200 --> 56:54.400] the South. So I bought and so I bought a whole bunch of like five or six different, different brand
[56:54.400 --> 56:59.200] BBQ chips from the South. And then I and with the Coke and with a thank you card, I put it in a
[56:59.200 --> 57:05.600] box and I shipped it to his office. And yeah, he was blown away. So I do that too when I'm reading
[57:05.600 --> 57:12.240] an author's book, where I'll take notes of the brands and things they talk about in the book,
[57:12.240 --> 57:16.000] because you can start, especially nonfiction business books, you can start to get a feel for what
[57:16.000 --> 57:21.120] they're really into. And so another example, as I sent a thank you card to an author who wrote a
[57:21.120 --> 57:25.920] business book, who talked about how much he loves Ben and Jerry's like one of their ice creams.
[57:26.640 --> 57:31.120] And he also mentioned that he had a public grocery store near his house, but he lives kind of rural.
[57:31.760 --> 57:41.360] So I sent him a thank you card with a public's $20 gift card to only be used on his flavor Ben and Jerry's
[57:41.360 --> 57:45.840] ice cream. Oh, nice. And I said, I would have shipped you the ice cream, but you know, that would
[57:45.840 --> 57:49.920] that wouldn't have worked so well. So, you know, those are great examples of connecting day,
[57:49.920 --> 57:54.480] if you like want to go back to game player types, like such wonderful ways to connect and win
[57:54.480 --> 57:59.760] together with others and just recognize other people. One question I have for you too is a like
[57:59.760 --> 58:06.080] and I'm being mindful of the time here, but as far as like keeping score, I think that's the most
[58:06.080 --> 58:14.080] challenging thing for people. Like I could send things out. I mean, yes, they're like CRMs
[58:14.080 --> 58:18.960] and software and so forth, but like any tips for like keeping the score, whether it's for personal
[58:18.960 --> 58:24.080] development or for outreach for sales or whatever. Yeah, specifically for personal development,
[58:24.080 --> 58:30.000] I vary my strategies. So there are some things that I keep track like my 136 week streak with my
[58:30.000 --> 58:35.680] book. It's a very simple swipe. Did I do a thing or not swipe, right? But if there's something that
[58:35.680 --> 58:43.520] I'm really trying to create as new, something visually that I can see every single day is more helpful.
[58:43.520 --> 58:47.440] So whether that be a calendar, whether it be a tick mark, whether that be a sticky note,
[58:48.000 --> 58:53.360] or I've even seen creative things where it's a marble that you add into the jar and then the jar
[58:53.360 --> 58:58.160] gets colorful, right? I did that. I did that with you. I did that with two jars. Sorry to interrupt.
[58:58.160 --> 59:02.240] I did that with two jars and I looked at my desk and I found like because I was going to do five
[59:02.240 --> 59:07.440] things a day and I actually did it and I was looking for five things to use and I used like
[59:07.440 --> 59:14.880] car wash tokens that I found in my desk. So I use them and then it occurred to me my car was filthy
[59:14.880 --> 59:20.880] and so I took the coins out and I went and got the car wash and then the jar sat empty for like
[59:21.440 --> 59:26.640] forever and now I don't have them anymore. Yeah. So that would be that would be a great example
[59:26.640 --> 59:31.920] of that at the end of that 90 days. You would realize, okay, don't use the car to use something else.
[59:31.920 --> 59:40.480] Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Any other tips? Yeah. Those are my first tip is create something.
[59:41.360 --> 59:47.120] It's so easy to just skip that part and then the something play around with what's going to work
[59:47.200 --> 59:54.560] with you. There are Habitat app is one of my favorites. There's actually a streaking app out there
[59:54.560 --> 59:59.120] of a community of strikers and you know, the ones that are actually taking action on doing things,
[59:59.120 --> 01:00:03.840] not other types of streaking. What about what about for people that want to strip naked and run
[01:00:03.840 --> 01:00:12.240] across the soccer field? I mean, I'm sure they have that app for that. Okay. So you try something
[01:00:12.240 --> 01:00:16.480] and just look to see what's going to work and again, something that works for me for my book is
[01:00:16.480 --> 01:00:23.120] digital. Something that is a brand new streak that I'm trying to build into a routine. I put that
[01:00:23.120 --> 01:00:27.520] front and center next to my desk so I don't forget about it. Yeah. That's great. Caitlin, this has
[01:00:27.520 --> 01:00:34.640] been so fun. How can it's like a game? How can people get a hold of you and learn more about what you
[01:00:34.640 --> 01:00:40.080] do? Thank you. Yes. So follow me on LinkedIn. If you look up Caitlin Johnson and gamification,
[01:00:40.080 --> 01:00:48.080] you'll find me. And then the other is through my website, www.bold-bird.com. Awesome. Well,
[01:00:48.080 --> 01:00:51.200] this has been a blast. Thanks a million for joining me. Thank you for having me.
Try our free ADHD test or download a copy of Now What? for late-diagnosed adults with ADHD, you know, wise squirrels.
