PODCAST. What's Your ADHD Metaphor? Your Brain's Not Broken with Dr. Tamara Rosier.
Originally aired: November 8, 2023."Is it you, me, or ADHD?”
Sponsored by Futureforth—helping you master communication through keynote presentations, workshops, consulting, and coaching. Communication Matters.
I’m excited to share our interview with Dr. Tamara Rosier, founder of the ADHD Center of West Michigan and author of Your Brain's Not Broken - Strategies for Navigating Your Emotions and Life with ADHD. We naturally dove deep into ADHD, understanding how it shapes one's thinking and the transformative power of metaphors to navigate its challenges.
Dr. Rosier, an ADHD expert, shared insights into understanding ADHD and provided valuable guidance for those on the neurodiverse spectrum and their neurotypical counterparts. In this captivating and often hilarious conversation, we delved into the various facets of ADHD and how Wise Squirrels can better comprehend their neurological differences.
Discovering the Power of Metaphors
Dr. Rosier unveiled a unique strategy for helping individuals with ADHD unlock their potential. She encourages her clients to conceptualize their ADHD through metaphors, making the complex traits of the condition easier to grasp. By creating metaphors like a "two-legged race" or "operating system," people can understand how ADHD affects their lives and then work on addressing those issues.
The Role of Acceptance and Self-Compassion
One key takeaway from the interview is the importance of self-acceptance and self-compassion. Understanding one's metaphor helps individuals identify the specific challenges they face and accept that their brains operate differently. This self-acceptance becomes a foundation for finding strategies that work with, rather than against, their unique cognitive styles.
The Need for Open Dialogue
Dr. Rosier also stressed the significance of open dialogue between neurodivergent and neurotypical partners, families, and friends. Instead of traumatically bonding over the struggles, she urges neurotypicals to be curious and understanding. By asking simple questions like "Is it you, me, or ADHD?", they can foster empathy and bridge the gap between the two perspectives.
Resources for Understanding ADHD
For those looking to gain a deeper understanding of ADHD and how to support their loved ones or themselves, Dr. Rosier's Your Brain’s Not Broken is an invaluable resource. Her upcoming book also promises to be a comprehensive guide to decoding the ADHD mind, offering insights, strategies, and real-life examples that can lead to greater harmony in neurodiverse relationships and families.
Dr. Tamara Rosier's wisdom and humor offer a fresh perspective on ADHD, emphasizing the power of metaphors and self-acceptance. By embracing these concepts, individuals with ADHD and their neurotypical loved ones can enhance their relationships and learn to navigate the intricacies of neurodiversity with empathy and understanding.
We, Wise Squirrels, are big Dr. Rosier fans. You will be, too.
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0:00
Give me a 15 Things to remember right before podcasts. Oh heck yes. One of them story of my life.
0:06
You're like, No, I don't I don't know. I might have read a book about it once. It's like a miracle. I'm even here.
0:16
Oh, gosh, I've been so excited to talk to you and, and and have you on the podcast? Yeah, I can't say I'm a longtime fan because I only found out. I have ADHD a few months back. Oh, wow. Yes. You started a podcast about it. Of course, naturally, what are people do? Yes. This is what we do. Yes. Yes. So yeah, the quick version is at 50. i Yeah, I was diagnosed. So I'm now 51. But it was this year. So naturally, yeah, I started. Why squirrels.com. So I could kind of openly share what I was learning. And then as a veteran podcaster it seemed logical to, to have a podcast. So I did that as well. I've been podcasting for 18 years this year. Oh, wow. Which is insane. But, yeah. What's the new book that you're working on? Well, it's not titled yet, because that's a joint dance between my publisher in me. So it's the book that isn't named yet.
1:22
But it is about families, and ADHD occurs in families. And many of us have wounds because of ADHD, being in our families. And I'm speaking specifically about emotional control, forgetting to pick kids up, you know, all the things that affect us growing up. And so what I'm trying to do is offer, hey, here's what you do when you find yourself in an ADHD family. And here are some things that you can do to try to turn it around make it more positive. Is it more for the neuro
1:57
typical reader or is it are some more like, is it more for the parent or, or the kid? Yeah, so I literally wrote it for anyone. So anyone at a 10th grade reading level, can find themselves in this book. Okay, so I wrote it to my ADHD peeps. Yeah. But knowing just like, with your brain stuff broken, knowing that the neuro typicals will be looking over our shoulders, also reading it, knowing what I what I know. Now, I've learned a lot about how it's very hereditary. And yes, to your point about the book, I've learned that the uptick in diagnosis of ADHD in adults really started spiking during the beginning of the pandemic and quarantine when when our lives were all turned upside down. And suddenly, our schedules were out of whack. And we were working from home and dealing with kids and spending more time on social media falling down misinformation, rabbit holes, and, and legitimate information as well. But all of these things plus the added stress of the pandemic and life. And then many people also sought out therapy during that time, including myself, that these kind of combined things led to an uptick in the diagnosis of more people realizing oh, wait, I have ADHD.
3:23
So that's right. It's curious about sort of that hereditary aspect. Yeah. Well, Barkley, Russell Barkley, and I know you're familiar with him, he estimates above 80% of are so if you have a child with ADHD, nope. Okay, sorry, I've got to take a running start at this and say it right. So I'm gonna say try to say it again. That's fine. Oh, by the way, ADHD people, we never tell stories, really, in a sequential, logical manner. We kind of tell it from all sides at once. And you can't do that when you're sharing data. But that's what my brain does naturally. So that's what you guys just heard is just
4:04
my brain.
4:06
So let's try it again.
4:09
If you have a dad with ADHD, that child is 80% likely to also have ADHD, according to Russell Barkley.
4:21
And certainly already in that, yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah, no one argues with Barclays. So, so this is really high. One time I had a client who's an anesthesiologist. And, I mean, those guys are the studs of medicine. You had to be exact. Yeah, she had ADHD. And, you know, just just, I'm highlighting that just to go, Hey, our people can be very smart, even though we lose our keys on a regular basis, right. But something she said to me was, listen in medicine, we would look at a point
5:00
01 correlation, we have a point five, at least, we should be taking this very, very seriously. And families. Yeah. And is this always really stuck with me? Well also that so many people are suspect they have ADHD, but they they're not willing, perhaps because of stigmas or anything else, but they're not really willing to get tested and to find out if they do, in fact, have ADHD when I, when I joke that I kind of came out of the Mental Health closet, so to speak, when I was diagnosed, because I'm very open. And so I went on Facebook, and I wrote a blog post and so on and said, hey, guess what, I have ADHD. And I started getting a lot of messages from friends who said, you know, I think I have ADHD. But you know, I'm not hyperactive. And so then I have to explain what I've learned very much from your book as well, by the way, thank you, from your brains not broken about how adults show the H. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Yeah, so we know that the DSM is woefully behind. And it's pretty sad when we can say, hey, tick tock has surpassed the manual that we use to diagnose ADHD. And I'm not saying tick tock is an authority. But tick tock is kind of showing us what more recent research is suggesting. And the very recent recent research, we can see the brain now. And we can see fMRI scans of it. Do you've had a lot of people on this. So I just want to I'll just do this very quickly, because I know that you have an educated audience. But just to remind people, that if you tap on your front, on your forehead, as your prefrontal cortex, that's the place where you plan and organize. Those of us with ADHD don't have reliable access there.
6:58
And we actually have to do more. With less connections. It's absolutely amazing that we can do anything. I'll sit in research, symposiums and almost get depressed and have to remind myself I have a PhD and I'm okay. Because the research is like, yeah, these ADHD saps, they can't do this, or this or this. And I'm sitting there as needy. She said, Boy, wow, they're right. And so the research is really damning toward our ability. But I want your listeners to understand and take a look at yourself, somehow you're making it happen. And you have this incredible brain that can rewire itself. But ADHD takes more energy to rewire.
7:46
And so if we just had a prefrontal lobe, I promise I'm going to the hyperactive question, Dave. Don't panic. Yeah.
7:53
All right. I've you're like, wow, she took a circuitous manner here. But
7:59
we all have the age the hyperactive, because we don't have that prefrontal cortex to go. Yeah, let's discard that thought. Go ahead and tune this thought in just this thought, focus on this thought we don't have that kind of language going on. In fact, in fact, we have about 1020 15 million thoughts bouncing around at same time. Right. Yeah. And so the hyperactivity can either it's more of a body thing, either. It's just encapsulated in the brain, ping, ping, ping all those thoughts, ping, ping, ping, or it slides out two of our body in our bodies, ping, ping, ping ping in our nervous system.
8:44
And so the H is always present. Yeah, either it's internalized, or it's externalized. But I want I really want your listeners just to kind of appreciate me and my brain so amazing, because in spite of all those pinging thoughts, somehow, I get something done. Yeah, we do. I mean, it is a miracle. In a lot of ways, like of some of the,
9:11
like, I, I'm still amazed that I was able, like I wrote my, my book, new business networking. I wrote that book with ADHD untreated not knowing I had ADHD it's an 80,000 word book, you know, it's published. I think the only way I pulled it off was like it first I had a contract and I received an advance so I had a contractual contract like I had to get in on time. And the other so it was that kind of virtual gun to my head, so to speak. And then I also had my wife understand that and I live in the south so she had a real gun to my head. No, I'm just I can't
9:52
really, but really, no, she but she, she constantly she was the one who was like, okay, yeah, get off the roof. You're out.
10:00
Kay, come back finish the chapter. And so she kept me on task because I wanted to quit so many damn times during that process. So, but as I read your book, by the way, like because your book was the first book I read about ADHD, and it was it was amazing because as I'm reading it, I'm like, oh, oh, like that's why, like you wrote in the book about something about like, soft T shirts. And, and I do I've talked about on the show before I do this. Like I feel the the sounds so creepy and weird, but I feel like the soft
10:37
it probably yes. So if you're like, oh, it's creepy if you if you do it What's your next sentences that makes it creepy?
10:45
So when I'm gagging someone with my soft t shirt
10:53
Yeah, but yeah, like just like touching my my soft shirts, or that's part of like the hyperactivity or chewing my lips or my inside of my mouth steaming as the kids say. Like just learning all about these these things. Even in your book, you also mentioned about this feeling of being like of hating and feeling overwhelmed by the spice aisle.
11:15
And me, it's malls just in general. mall parking lots and malls. Like I get turned around. I got lost. I hate them. That's the seventh seventh circle of hell right there. Yeah. And Dante's Inferno, the mall parking lot.
11:29
You know, Dave, this is such a good point. Because all of us whether or not the H is pronounced, or in turtle, all of our senses are turned up a little bit too high.
11:43
And so again, we don't have that prefrontal cortex. Go know, just ignore that buzzing or ignore that your shoes are too tight right now. Or ignore this. Our ADHD brains? Like I don't know, that seems like important information. Yeah. And if we don't, our brains don't know what to pay attention, attention to what not to. So we try to pay attention to everything. Which means then we develop feelings about what we're paying attention to, because that's part of the ADHD brain, right? If we had the prefrontal cortex online, in a steady way, we wouldn't have the Oh, I hate that scratchiness. Like I hate.
12:25
I'm very sensitive to touch too. And so, okay, see that? Yeah, my next sentence is really what matters, right.
12:33
And so, when I choose clothing, I choose chairs to sit on when I everything. I don't like certain fabrics.
12:44
Now, what separates us from just absolutely going bonkers, is we're like, okay, okay, what would a rational human do right now? Okay, a rational human would just get up and switch chairs and not freak out. Okay, okay. I could do that. Yeah. Okay. It's the desk kind of talk we have inside of our head. Yeah. Like, what would a grown up do right now? Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. No. 100% Yeah, I That's exactly. That's exactly what goes through my head. I guess that's part of like the, I guess the kind of coping mechanisms and sort of reframing as we get older and wiser to realize like how we can do it where the, the old like bouncing little boy can't do it. And the girl who's like overthinking, and of course, I'm generalizing here, but I know with ADHD, traditionally, it was like a naughty boys thing. And, you know, obviously girls had and have ADHD too, but I just think they're smarter than boys. And that's how they were able to learn to like, internalize it more than the boy bouncing off the blackboard. Well, yeah, let me let me just add to what you just said. If they can, and I've seen women who can't, but a lot of women can understand the girl territory, and the girl territories, not nice girls will cut you emotionally. And so girls internalize. Because let me tell you socially, ostracism. I mean, it's so is so bad out there. Starting emceeing it starting in third grade, a lot of girls learn to internalize it, and some really can't. So we're like, always out there and they're gonna pay socially and it's really sad. So I that's kind of my working theory on why girls go underground faster. Yeah. Also estrogen. The effects of estrogen on our bodies affect different thinking styles. So that's, it's a little bit of that. I've read that that there's like a three year delay in the development of the prefrontal cortex for ADHD errs. Is that Is that right? Okay, so, yes, and it's very consistently three years, except there's one wind
15:00
A lot of time. And it's a and I this is anecdotal. But I have seen 21 year olds regress back to acting like a 16 year old.
15:12
And it's almost like, oh, man, this grown up stuff, I can't do it, I can't do it. And they almost start to kind of take on behaviors of a 16 year old.
15:24
And so here's what I tell parents. Be cool, be real cool. And understand. If your daughter reaches 27, she's, she's gonna start to kind of see the light for your son, you're gonna have to wait to 29 because, yes, testosterone delays a lot of mental development. Sorry, that's not being sexist. This just
15:52
No, but I mean, I've always read. Yeah, somewhere. But I think it's 23 is typically like the age your, your, you know, the neurotypical, neurotypical brain fully developed. So both are, so my kids are now well, they're about to be 17 and 18, respectively, next week, or next, while my daughter will be 70 next week, and my son will be 18. And just a few weeks here, at the time of this recording, but they both are talking about like getting cool tattoos at some point. And we're like, just wait to your brains fully developed before you do. You know, like, we're trying to make the case that you're kind of way cooler not to have tattoos these days, because everybody has one. But I digress. Right.
16:36
By the way, um, can we just, can I just quickly say something to parents who might be listening like, hey, my kid wants to tattoo too. Yeah. Um, might one of my daughters wanted a tattoo. And she really, really wanted one. I'm like, awesome. Let's use a permanent marker. Draw what you want. Yeah. And let's, let's run a test for a full year. If you still love it after a full year, then let's do it. I'll pay for it. That's a great idea. That's a great idea. And she had ADHD and she still doesn't have a tattoo. And she's 2028. There you go. Success. Yes, good. Well, I'm not opposed to tattoos, guys, do you? Oh, but here's the thing I know about the ADHD brain. The reason I didn't get a tattoo is I couldn't commit to something that I would want for the rest of my life. And I got one because I was young and stupid. And just jumping into every idea. And yeah, so and yeah, again. Yeah, yeah. We're not opposed to tattooed people. To be clear. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I want everyone to know. Not that. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the Yeah, I have this on my body now. Kind of feel. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Hey, I'm curious to like what your take is on. You know, obviously, it hasn't been all like puppies and roses and diagnosed this year. I've been thinking a lot about I've been, I've said this kind of a lot on the show, but like, I'm trying to obviously avoid dwelling too much on the past and blah, blah, blah, because I don't want to go to dark places there. Yada yada, yada.
18:19
I know the traits of ADHD, and how they relate to who I am and the decisions and the things that I've done in the past, but like how much can I? I'm not looking to blame ADHD. But at the same time, I'm like, Is it is it me that made that stupid decision? Or is it ADHD that made that stupid decision? You know what I mean? Okay, Dave, I love this question. Okay. I love this. So imagine two circles, that overlap in a Venn diagram. Okay, in one circle, we have your personality, and in your personality circle, are all those traits that you've built on how to cope with the world? That's kind of what personality is. Okay? Is there there's sometimes that essence of yourself that lies in there, but a lot of it is It's stuff you learned on how to deal with your environment. Okay, the other circle label that ADHD and in there
19:29
are all the times you forgot where you parked in a mall parking lot, and how many times like okay, I have 15 things to do before this podcast start, and I only forgot five of them. So yes, I know I could have written them down, but I didn't guys, so you know, short term memories in there and all these things.
19:53
So now when we look at this Venn diagram, there is an overlap. And the overlap is
20:00
kind of that double whammy space.
20:03
And what something some things I help clients do is, hey, let's explore what's in your personality circle. And let's explore what's in the ADHD. And let's learn about your double Whammies. Because the double whammy is my friend, that's what's gonna get you in trouble. So I'll give you an example. my personality, my personality, so personality circle is highly impulsive
20:28
and intuitive, whoop sees. Now when I look at the ADHD, we know that ADHD exacerbates that trait in my personality.
20:39
So I have even more of a risk of making impulsive decisions.
20:46
And so I put myself on high alert, anytime I double Whammies come up. So it's almost like you have a list of these double Whammies
20:55
refer to or, I mean, I would imagine just just writing them out would probably be enough in some respects to make one remember what those are. Because like for me, you know, for me, it was it was drinking too much and smoking. Like too many cigarettes back in the day. It was like this thing around addiction where I mean, I quit smoking, I don't know, like 25 years ago, and I quit drinking three years ago.
21:21
And but I find that like it's it's this excessive thing. Like my wife and I have been together like 25 years so she is actually she actually would do this thing where she'd go excessive Dave like kind of under her breath. When I was like having one another beer. Really? Are we going to have another beer Dave? Excessive Dave or, you know, are eating like all the kids chicken fingers that they didn't eat on the table. I would clear their plate. Now you're meddling my addiction. Oh, really?
21:51
Well, no, I don't have the turn off button. Yeah. For food. Right? Yeah, no, yeah. So one of the double Whammies I have
22:00
is actually just recently found out. That's actually a genetic trait is Oh, Tamra. You're not allowed to do that. Because you don't have the shutoff valve. Yes. But it's not as simple as just stopping yourself, I suppose. I mean, with with chicken fingers, as delicious as they are. Yes. One can maybe stop. But when it gets to more serious addictions, right with with, you know, actual drugs and things. Yeah, that's when things can go south quickly. Right. Yeah. So addictions would actually when I work with clients, and they have, so all ADHD people have the ability to become addicted.
22:40
And it's in my head, it's whether that circle is present in infecting their infecting, affecting their life or not. And so if I work with a client, and I know there's an addiction present, I add another circle. And so then I watch where the all three of those overlap. And so then we really watch that hotspot, and we kind of learn where, how to navigate this. So when my girls turned 21, the ADHD girls,
23:12
you know, I have all girls, girls going to bars is a scary thing. Because of how women can be treated, right? Yeah. And so I really agreed on them, like, you cannot afford to get sloppy drunk in public, you cannot afford this. And I know I, I'm, I wasn't shaming them. I was scaring them.
23:39
But I wanted them to be very aware, you know that this is dangerous. So we talked about the ring method. So I would have had them say counter drinks, because what would happen is when I was their age, people would keep handing me drinks. And I'd keep drinking. Because at some point, if I have a Long Island Iced Tea, that's a lot of shots, folks. And by the way, I'm no spring chicken. I don't I don't drink anymore, because my body's like, hey, screw you. You can't handle this, right? But back when I was a kid, my rule was one Long Island Iced Tea all night.
24:16
And I'm like, That's plenty.
24:19
My second rule was if it was a single shot drink I was allowed so many but I would move my ring on my finger across my fingers so that I could keep track how many I had. Oh, that's interesting. And so I worked with the girls to kind of like what what's your way of keeping track
24:39
and I hope I'm not offending anyone by telling you that I scared my children but
24:48
please, I you know, I'm a positive parents I love my kids know, but you got to be realistic. I mean, you gotta teach make sure they're street smart and safe. I'm exactly yeah. 100% That's an ADHD kid.
25:00
It's and I know this I was an ADHD kid undiagnosed, went to a ton of college parties. And now I look back I'm like, only by the grace of God, nothing bad happened to me. Because I, I made stupid decisions. Like one time was handed out, I wanted to get out of this house. I'm like, hey, guys catch me. And so I jumped out a second story window. Oh, my God. And I know what the heck, while I was kind of handed down, it was a whole thing, like, reasonable people should not do this. And, and so I'm grateful that I'm okay. But I also wanted my children to know, you have ADHD, the likelihood of you not being able to handle this is
25:44
still with us? No, yeah, you're absolutely you're absolutely right about that. So what what do you recommend someone, someone do who has, you know, you know, the show is really for, you know, late diagnosed adults. So people like myself, who, if you don't mind me asking How old were you when you were diagnosed? You mentioned.
26:03
So it's a little bit complicated. It was until my I'm 40. I was in my 40s. I'm 55 right now.
26:11
But I was a high school teacher. And I learned about this thing in the 80s called ADHD or ADD, right? And I'm like, Wow, this just sounds like how everyone thinks. And, you know, it's really how all my family thinks. And then I taught high school, and I was really good at teaching one population. It was the at risk kids. And I had no idea why. But it's I understood how they thought, and I never wanted to teach a boring class. So it was a good fit. So in a way, I knew all my life, but I didn't take it seriously until my 40s.
26:52
And that's when you actually got diagnosed.
26:55
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, of course, I mean, this is, I mean, this is kind of so traditional.
27:05
It was when one of my children was in third grade. And then in fourth grade, she wasn't doing well. And we took her to get diagnosed for ADHD. And
27:18
she had ADHD. And so
27:21
I realized this little girl needed a guide through life. And I just said, Hey, your brain works like mommy's brain. And here's how mommy's brain works. And I remember those big blue eyes looking at me and said, How do you know?
27:42
Yeah, I'm like, Oh, all right, I'll get diagnosed to sweetie. But, yeah, so I was. Yeah.
27:53
I wanted to be a Sherpa for my children.
27:57
As it turns out, I have three biological, biological children. And two of them have ADHD. And one of them does it.
28:05
By the way, folks, she grew up like she was the
28:09
sober one at a frat party. That's very responsible. Yeah.
28:15
It is interesting. I remember in the book you talked about, and it also kind of reminded me of something I did in my childhood, which was, you mentioned, an 11 year old, who was doing experiments and cause damage to some property, and this like possibility brain and as a kid, I got thrown out of first grade, at around, I guess, seven or eight years old, I got thrown out of the school, in part for ruining a school play. I want to say that actually, I actually I actually killed in the school play, I should add, it was the only person upset and the only person that was my teacher.
28:57
Everybody else were laughing their heads off. But, but the other thing that that led to the I mean, that was certainly one of the last rounds. But the last straw was I was thrown out of the class like usual for just disrupting, and I was the class clown. So so I'd be out in the hall bored sitting there. While the class continued and I took out of my bag, I found an eraser and I found a paperclip and so I unwound the paperclip till it was straight. And then I stuck it in the eraser. And then I stuck the eraser with the paperclip stuck into it into the electrical socket in the hall of the school. And of course, I had no idea what I was doing at all of course, and so I touched the the eraser and I got like a little shock. And I was like, whoa, whoa, that's weird. And I did it again. That's where
29:51
you did it. And then your brace like that moment of the hyenas and The Lion King. Do it again. Do it again.
30:00
Okay, yeah, it was like Bart Simpson with electric cupcakes.
30:07
Exactly. Yeah. So what happened next was the kids started filing out after class. And I started showing them. And next thing I knew, like all the kids were lined up doing this touching and I kind of walked away. And as I was walking away, one kid went to approach to touch it or maybe touched it. And like the whole thing exploded in and all these like, sparks flew out of the wall. Thank God everybody was nobody was hurt. Everybody was okay. But the power was knocked out. I mean, we're talking like the late 70s here probably mid 70s. Show like the power for laughing. Okay, this is so ADHD of us. Yes. Yeah. No, it's It's incredible. So like, and the power was kicked out of at the school for the remainder of some time. So yeah, so that was kind of last round. I got I got thrown out. But I was curious about like this, this possibility brain that you wrote about, okay, so So let's just take your scenario. And by the way, dude, getting kicked out in first grade? Yeah, that's low. That's low. But here's what happened. So. So I want your listeners to picture little Dave in like, okay, there's nothing malicious in his body. He's not even mad that he got kicked out. He just accepts it as a fact of life. Like, yeah, clearly I couldn't manage this. And so he's he takes, there's nothing bad going on in his head. He just has this what if brain? So he's like, Oh, well, I found this paperclip. And obviously, every ADHD person is gonna pay play with a paperclip that's just begging to be straightened out. And so he's like, well, well, I have this eraser. You know, I can put these two together. And then he's like, cool. What are we going to do with this cool new tool? Okay, look for an orifice. What orifice? Can I stick?
31:57
And unfortunately, his teacher didn't set him far away from every outlet. Because, guys, that's what you need to do when you have ADHD kids. And so here's what if brain his possibility brain goes, I will insert this here. And then he did this fent. Fabulous. He's only in first grade guys. And he's running experiments. Right? Yeah. I mean, this is actually incredible. In actually speaks to your intelligence. I know people don't agree with. But this what if brain is like, what would happen if, and this is the misunderstanding that comes with ADHD? We have what if brains? Well, what if this happened? Yeah. And by the way, some people use what if this happened and create an anxiety force around though?
32:47
Little Dave's, you says What if brain to go? Well, what if? What if this new tool does this? And he and you know, maybe little Dave even named it like, oh, I created a separ? Yeah. And so
33:00
and, and so he was testing the bounds of electricity in first grade, not knowing any of the concepts really.
33:10
Because, you know, you and I are in the same generation, guys. We're kind of in the Forgotten generation, like people didn't house proof. No, our kid proof their houses. They didn't. I mean, if you saw the playgrounds we played on it's a miracle. We're alive. Oh, yeah. But
33:27
the only hard knocks the only medicine in my house was scotch, and the only
33:33
and my dad would be the only one administering it to himself. Yes, yes. That's exactly. True story, though. One time I was sick. And my parents gave me whiskey in a cup of tea to cut the flow. Oh, yeah.
33:51
What the? What the damn hell? Yeah.
33:56
So I'm just saying, like, I got sapping my hair and my grandfather in lovingly he wasn't being rude. He poured gasoline on my head to get the sap out of my hair.
34:08
Oh my gosh, it it burns. It burns Dave it burns real bad. So all those I'm kind of defending little Dave here because you have to take this like if this happened yesterday with this Gen Z.
34:24
Gen Z knows about electrical outlets because their parents have been covering them for decades. Yeah, right. Yeah. But for our generation no one really kind of went through this so he's like, hey, what if Yeah, and it's a great example of now we're gonna punish you for your What if brain
34:48
and so your listeners especially late diagnosed right have already been punished for their What if praying?
34:56
A lot. Yeah, yep. No, guys, you
35:00
It's beautiful that we have a what if brain? It's lovely, it's a gift. But like with every power comes great responsibility.
35:09
So we have to learn how to manage or what if brains and learn how to govern them, so that it's a gift and not a curse? So what are some tips in doing that? Like maybe like something that that a listener can do? Who is recently diagnosed? Hmm. Okay, good one. Um, so, first of all, we want to understand the difference between convergent thinking and divergent thinking. Divergent thinking is what we do naturally, I can refer to my divergent thinking earlier, when I said, Okay, I try to tell a story from the inside out. That's not going to work here, slow down until it sequentially, we naturally do the divergent work. In other words, what if how is this connected? Let's take this one idea and blow it up into pieces. Yeah. Right? Well, the rest of the world works on convergent time. And convergent time is sequential. It waits for people to take turns when they're talking.
36:17
It's a, you know, I can hear one of my clients go, it's a boring way to think it is. It's like a linear way of thinking. Yeah.
36:28
And guess what most of the world wants us to think like that. And so we need to understand when to use our divergent brain and when to use our convergent. And so it's like knowing the difference between a gas pedal and a brake. Convergence, like the brake divergence, like the gas pedal, we just need to know when to use what sometimes, Dave, I can look like a freaking genius. When I see a divergent thing in the presence, especially of neurotypicals, they'll be like, Wow, that's a great idea. I can buy. And you know, my ADHD counterparts is like, yeah, I could have gotten there. But, but if I'm meeting with a whole bunch of neurodivergent people, and I'm only using my divergent thinking, I'm going to be highly irritating.
37:18
So I need to kind of learn how to tap on the tap on the brakes, slow down, do this sequential thinking. So when I'm in a meeting, I have a ton of divergent things popping through my head from the colors that someone's wearing, whether their hair looks good that day, like all of these things are popping in my head. So I open up, I have a remarkable Pat. But you could do this old school on a piece of paper, and I start keeping track of the things that I want to blurt out.
37:51
It's a whole list. And like, if someone's talking like, well, I have five ideas for what you're saying. And I don't want to wait until they're finished. Because it's impulsivity. But it's also I'm going to forget these ideas. So I start writing out the ideas. And here's what happens. I look like I'm really smart and taking notes. Yeah. Right. This is the biggest hack, guys. Yeah, because I just fold neuro typicals that I'm taking notes. Really what I'm doing is taking my metacognitive notes. Here's what's happening in tamaraws head. So I'm just quickly jotting down my ideas. That's it's a great, it's a great strategy for that. I think as long as it doesn't say like, you know, all work and no play makes Tamra adult girl.
38:45
Actually, I have a code for that. Oh, so here's the shining reference. If, if anyone lists Yes, not for me.
38:54
That means we've completely lost the plot. Yeah.
38:59
So I love the reference, by the way. So I have a code for that though.
39:04
And the code is if I start writing sentences, just using first letters, that means I'm actually swearing people. And, and I'll just kind of do a quick sentence. And then, you know, move on, because we're not staying on my idea of, hey, I wish this person would, you know, shut the heck up. Yeah. Um, and then I just kind of write it all in an abbreviation and then move on. It's smart like I do the same when I medicine so like, if I when I'm when I'm focused on my breath, and I'm fully on in on like a 10 or 20 minute meditation. I do keep a pad of paper and a pen next to me. And while I'm, you know, my clothes usually but my mind is going to go to places and think of things and one of the ways that I handle that is just to jot down what I'm thinking
40:00
And then like very quickly that just like you're describing here, jotting it down, and then getting back to the task at hand, in that case is really just meditating. In that moment. You've, you've written about like, or talked about, in some interviews about like pink marshmallows and toothpicks as it applies to convergent and divergent thinking, we're using sure and share that because I find it really interesting. Oh, good, I'm glad I'm so this came from what I was teaching educational psychology as a professor, I gave my students a pile of they were they happen to be pink marshmallows, because that's what I found at the store that day.
40:45
And they were the mini marshmallows. I said, Okay, pile them up. And so they would pile it up. And I'm like, so these pink marshmallows represent ideas. And look how you stacked ideas on top of each other. Now in I was teaching this thing called schema.
41:03
And so I now then I handed people toothpicks. And I said, now make a structure out of these. And so my students were making these, you know, very interesting structures.
41:19
Sometimes people collaborated, because you know, there are divergent big pool in my class, to see how big their structure could get. And, and so I hope your listeners are imagining little marshmallows connected, lots of marshmallows connected with toothpicks, right, so it kind of a lot of them turned out like a sphere, some of them look like a tower. And when we do that, that's called schema. That's when we put a lot of ideas and connections together. And then in psychology, that's schema. Now the interesting thing is, we have different areas of focus. So neurotypicals tend to focus on the marshmallows, the ideas, those of us with ADHD, we tend to be the toothpick people we want to focus on. But what's the connection between these? So if this mark, Mount marshmallow is connected to this marshmallow, what does that mean? So we're the toothpick, people. And by the way, that's what can make us look like geniuses, if we put it together. By the way, one of my favorite games I used to play with students is when they would, would be studying to help them build their schema to focus on the toothpicks. So I'd hold up two flashcards and say, how are these two related?
42:42
And it could be really random different things. And by the way, I'm a cruel game player. So I would add in my shoelaces and mitochondrial ratchet like
42:56
I was used to related Yeah, but the thing is, it would increase their learning because they focused on the toothpick. We remember toothpicks. I wonder if every improviser has ADHD, because I studied improv we Second City in Toronto, and I performed improv a lot over the years and have done a lot of corporate workshops on communication skills and using improv. G. I'm curious if you've had any experiences with with that. Oh, yeah. So first of all, the only people that truly like improv are ADHD, divergent thinkers.
43:33
Right? Because we're like, yeah, Put me in coach. This is how my brain works. Yeah. You can actually if you go back and look at the comedians, and how their sticks, you can tell if they're ADHD or not. Now, some of them actually talk about their ADHD. And it's a little bit harder now that shows are really rehearsed. Well, and you can tell,
43:58
but I can tell the difference between an ADHD comic and a non ADHD comic. It is because there's something there's a look, they get in their eye, because they're getting dopamine from the laugh. They're getting dopamine. And their brains are like, cool. More toothpicks. I can bring it. Yes. And so they love.
44:22
One time I was doing a presentation. You know, ADHD people have different careers. In one career. I was a college professor and I spoke a lot at other colleges, teaching faculty how to teach. And someone came up afterwards and said, Do you do improv? Your timing is impeccable.
44:46
And I've laughed. I'm like, no, just had some caffeine does pre diagnosis. Yeah.
44:53
But now I know. No, they were laughing. And my little 12 year old girls like
45:00
Hey, let's go after those dopamine hits and make them laugh more. Yeah. And so I think a lot of people with improv really, probably having ADHD tendencies. Yeah. Last Last year I did.
45:15
And true ADHD forum. I've always like, as a public speaker, I do a lot of a lot of speaking. It's a big part of my business and teaching speaking skills and things. And so as a speaker, I study stand up comics, and I've always been a big comedy fan anyway. And class clown, as I mentioned earlier, same year. Yeah. So So by studying what they do, so I took a course last year and then I did six open mics and six weeks
45:43
of for the first time ever, I'd 50 men and pre diagnosis by the way, and I was doing stand up comedy. And it was just a facet. And I yeah, I mean, after doing that, by the way, if anybody has to deliver a presentation, oh, my god, like six open mics. It was I did well, I think but but you know, it was as rough as you would expect as well.
46:06
And after those six, six weeks, I had a paid our keynote presentation I was delivering and I was elated. I was like dancing on the stage. The audience were laughing their heads off. I was having the best time. Because I was like, Oh my gosh, these people are here to see me. They're not like other comedians in the back of the room talking over you.
46:27
That's exactly it. Yeah. You know, there's one time people kept laughing. And I said, into the mic very low. I'm like, Listen, if you keep encouraging me this way, we're not gonna get through this presentation. And they they died laughing even more. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, okay, so it was kind of serious. Like, I love you guys. You're cheering me on here? Yeah. Um, is there's nothing worse than speaking to a dead audience. Oh, yeah. It's, it's really kind of funny, because I have two preferences when I speak. I like to be able to see who I'm speaking to. Yeah. Like if the crowds too big and I can only see the lights that kind of creeps me out. Yeah. Because like you and I bet I would put money on this. You read people's faces? Oh, you go. What can make them laugh now? Because as an early class clown, you learned Yeah, this is boring. But if I make people laugh, so you studied faces to know, like, Oops, nope, too soon. Okay. Don't Don't make that joke. Do this. Instead, it's wild to look back at all the content I produced over the years, the blog post the podcast emails, or like, newsletters, all that sort of my books, looking back through it all and realizing like, like, I could take it all and, and repurpose it all now for ADHD folks, because like why squirrels listening? Because it is. It's weird, because like I was writing sort of stuff to help other people. And while it was helpful and is helpful, It's especially helpful for people like us, because yeah, it's it's such an interesting thing. And now you just have a name for it. Yeah, for you didn't have a name. Yeah. And now you're like, oh, that's the ADHD difference.
48:24
Oh, my God. Yeah. Sorry. I mean, it could Yeah, no problem. I was gonna say I could I could talk to you for hours. And I can't believe an hour is already flown by. Are you doing okay, on time right now? i Oh, yes. Yes. I just wanted to make sure. Tell me about the this process you have that you work with your clients on? For finding their metaphor. I think this is Oh, yeah. impactful. Oh, thank you so much. So the reason metaphor is important to ADHD people in this is most ADHD people, when I say this, you know, obviously, I'm kind of generalizing. But because that prefrontal cortex tends to be quite literal. There's a spot behind our brain, the dmn. That's the seed of inspiration, reflection, and metaphorical thinking. And many of us go there to access that. It is kind of I mean, guys, when I tell you, our brains are so amazing, because crazy research, we shouldn't be able to do any of this. And yet, neuroplasticity, we go the dmn to try to do prefrontal cortex functions. Enough nerdiness. So, I found that if my clients can conceptualize their ADHD into a metaphor, then we'll solve for that metaphor, and that's a good place to start in coaching. Because if I just go hey, so
50:00
What's bringing you here today? And they're like, Ah, I am going to get fired at work. And I have to turn, you know, turn in my sales reports on time.
50:09
Well, you're right, we need to solve that problem. But it's not going to engage their entire system, as a metaphor would. So instead, I say, Hey, I get you're here for some good reasons, I promise you, we're gonna get to them.
50:26
But first, could you talk to me about what your ADHD feels like, in a metaphor?
50:33
And some people can think about it immediately. And others will need to just kind of, can I have a week to do this? Like? Absolutely.
50:44
So Dave, I'm going to ask you if you have one in just a second. So you've been warned.
50:50
So my metaphor for ADHD is a two legged race, or a three legged race.
50:59
But I'm in a two legged race, I'm in just a normal race. Yeah. But every morning, I have to get up, strap my leg to this chicks leg that I call ADHD Tamra, and we have to wind them together. And we have to learn how to do this. And frankly, I get really mad at her. Because you don't she does halfway through the race. She sits down. She doesn't do watch. She wants to pick dandelions. And I'm dragging her. And this is a bit dark. But I'm going to confess this to your group because you guys are mature. I used to I got through my PhD just by knocking her out and dragging her body across the finish line, right.
51:41
And that's not very self loving guys. And I had to learn other ways. But I had to do I had to solve that metaphor. A couple of my other clients, one of my clients says you don't ADHD to me is a piece of toilet paper on my heel. It's just always there embarrassing me. So so we start to solve the metaphor.
52:06
And when we address the metaphor and fix the metaphor, that's a, that's a great place for people to kind of start to
52:15
address their ADHD issues. So Dave, what's yours? Yeah, it's a good question. The way I've been referring to it, is my operating system. Because I'm a nerd. I'm nerdy that way. And so
52:28
I always feel like it's like, like, like the, like Apple's iOS operating system and an Android device.
52:38
Or vice versa, right? Like, it's like it does not compute. And it's not, it's often not running, it might even run, like certain programs will run. And some will run better than others. But the but it's running slower, it's sluggish. Things aren't quite what they are, it's not running well, a lot of the time, and it's not running to its full potential a lot of the time. And that's, that's how I feel a lot of the time is that I'm,
53:09
I'll and I do a little bit of,
53:13
you know, I'll fall into the comparison trap of looking at others, and wonder what the hell what do they have that I don't have? Why am I not where I need to be in my career. And things like this year, for some strange reason this year has been slower than previous years for my business, and I work for myself, so I only have myself to blame for that. So So yeah, anyway, operating system tends to be Yeah, my metaphor. Yeah. So. So to your listeners, if they were a client, I kind of say, Okay, so here's what I heard. You feel like you have an operating system in the opposite. Like, it's not, it's not congruent. And so you're feeling a lot of like, frustration with a lack of congruence. See, and and so through talking, you know, I'm rushing this because, you know, this isn't coaching. But, Dave, do you mind if I continue talking about?
54:16
tearing me apart? Okay. No, I would say so, something we have to work on, is, what do we expect from ourselves? You're clearly an intelligent person. So let's work with
54:31
you know, this. You do? I mean, I think your metaphor is incredibly accurate. Right? Like, I have an accurate metaphor, like, it's a three legged race everyday folks. I just hope I can make it and just try to run with a two legged people as well as I can. So it's accurate. So what is it that you have to accept? So what are the things that we can accept about your metaphor? And what are the things that we can address in your metaphor? Yeah,
55:00
because there's a lot of, you know, well, you said you're newly diagnosed. So there's a lot of acceptance still. Because you're you have to grieve some, some systems and you wish you had a different operating system. But how could we accept the metaphor and work on what we have? Yeah, I mean, personally, I think, obviously, I'm currently working with ADHD coach, and I'm now seeing a therapist, like a psychologist.
55:28
I've changed my prescription to something better, that good, more appropriate and seems to be helping. And I think also just for me, yeah, just it helps for me to be open. In fact, my my wife and I just had a really deep heart to heart yesterday, conversation about kind of everything and, you know, and she's neurotypical, so for her, like, and she's a school teacher. So you know, she's, she said, I had ADHD for years.
55:59
Yeah, the lesson is listen to your spouse, people. Yeah. So I'm, I'm, yeah, I guess that's kind of how I'm handling things. I'm just trying to.
56:09
So you're Yeah. And you're still you're, you still don't even know fully what your metaphor means. Right?
56:17
And so the important thing is, like, Okay, how do I keep addressing this metaphor? And because you have a partner, who can, you can trust, you can go, Hey, honey, here's my metaphor, and sometimes you're gonna see me get frustrated, because I'm still working with a sluggish system. And they're not made for one another. And I get frustrated about that. But feel free to go. Hey, Dave, I think that's an operating system issue. How would you don't sweat the small stuff here. And so really, the next thing is to share your metaphor with people you trust. Because you'll keep getting more and more
57:01
feedback from your metaphor.
57:05
You know, there's times you know, my eating she version of myself does, she will not run if she's hungry. So I got to keep that girl fed. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, oh, by the way, my mind for some reason, she's 12. So I gotta, I'm like, Oh, we don't want to stop for lunch. But I've got to feed her are all she's gonna sit down for the rest of the of the day.
57:28
So I keep incorporating my metaphor, into how I understanding ADHD, so that I can actually come up with good strategies. It sounds also like your, like, part of this strategy is, at least for you, is to
57:49
almost I don't want to say, obviously, split personality is definitely not what I'm, I'm going for here. But it's almost like there's, you're referring to, you know, your, your other version of yourself, which is with ADHD, and yeah, and how to handle that. Are there any tips for approaching that without?
58:09
Yeah, Dave, thanks for the opportunity to promote my next book, ah, I actually go into this, okay, in a lot of detail. So in chapter three of my next book, I talk about our ADHD monkeys. And I go through and we go through in name the ADHD monkeys that we each have. Now I have monkeys that you might not have. And so I have to deal with my top five cookies daily, and okay, maybe some of your clients are like, Whoa, now you're mixing metaphors? Yep, you're right.
58:40
And I was an English teacher, that is the shameful act. But when we go through and named the parts of our ADHD, that we learn to talk to those parts. So for example, one of my ADC monkeys is critical Kelvin, and critical Kelvin pops on my shoulder and it's like, well, clearly, you're going to fail at this. And on some days, I really want to believe him. And then sometimes anxious, ami pops on my shoulder and goes, You know what, I would listen to him because he's probably right. And so now I have two monkeys ganging up, right. And so I'm kind of picturing or ADHD kind of breaking it down into different parts. It's really important. Yeah, that's, that's great. And I think that's, yeah, that's a great approach to it to identify these different,
59:31
these different sources of, of self doubt, or just beating yourself up. I think that's really important. And I know we're gonna we're gonna wrap things up here in a moment, but I did want to ask you to, you know, talk about my neurotypical life. And it sounds like your next book will be a good source for this too. But like, are there other resources for neurotypical spouses to read or watch or you know,
1:00:00
Learn from to better understand how their their spouse operates. So, you know, I mentioned Barkley, he's he's a good person to watch.
1:00:11
So here's my advice to neurotypicals.
1:00:15
Please, don't trauma bond with other neurotypicals about how lousy your EDC spouse is. Okay, so we have to start there. We're dealing with a neurological difference. So Dave isn't a big dummy. He's not a big jerk. He has neurological differences that he's finally understanding what they are. And so we want to open up the dialog, and we want to be curious.
1:00:43
And so I, you know, I don't want to shamelessly promote my book, but your brains not broken. I read I wrote it, so that neurotypicals could read it, and go, Oh, okay. Okay. So this is why when Dave tries to tell a story, he tells the punch line first. Yeah, no, you probably have more training than that. But that had been an ADHD thing, right. And so I really want to encourage,
1:01:14
I really want to encourage all neurotypical spouses to just start by being curious and open and learning. And that's really,
1:01:27
you know, Dave, you just got really frustrated in the spice aisle.
1:01:33
Can you talk to me about that? And obviously, not when you're still ticked about the cinnamon where the cinnamon was? Right, right, but, but after that, hey, can we talk about that?
1:01:45
And I think the biggest gift is saying, is it you me? Or was that ADHD? Yeah. And I think you just named your next book.
1:01:55
What that is that is on the block to be talked about. There. Yeah, that's a good name. How can I have to say thank you so much for for this and for your time. I really do appreciate it. I really am thankful for the work you're doing. How can people get a hold of you and learn more about what you do and find your books and all the good stuff that you did? Yeah. Well, Dave, I like you. And I'll be back anytime you ask me. So
1:02:22
so people can find me at Tamra rosier.com ta M. Ara R O. S. I e. r.com. Awesome. Well, thank you again for joining me. And yeah, this has been fantastic. So I appreciate it. Oh, you're great. I can tell you've done this for a long time. So thanks. Thanks for having me on today.
Try our free ADHD test or download a copy of Now What? for late-diagnosed adults with ADHD, you know, wise squirrels.
