PODCAST. Decades of Mindfulness & Mindset Research with Dr. Ellen Langer.
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The Mother of Mindfulness with Dr. Ellen Langer. Win a copy of her book!
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Welcome to Wise Squirrels, the podcast created for late-diagnosed adults with ADHD. Today’s episode is a special one: I sit down with Dr. Ellen J. Langer, the pioneering social psychologist often called the “Mother of Mindfulness.”
Dr. Langer became the first woman to earn tenure in Harvard’s Department of Psychology. She has authored twelve books and more than 200 research articles, including her latest, The Mindful Body, which challenges conventional thinking about health, aging, and well-being.
To celebrate this conversation, I’m giving away two free copies of The Mindful Body. While you’re here, don’t miss the free ADHD self-test; it’s one of the most popular resources on the site.
Mindfulness vs. Meditation
One of the most eye-opening insights Dr. Langer shares is her distinction between mindfulness and meditation:
Meditation is a structured practice that allows you to step out of daily life and sit quietly, focusing on your breath—much more on meditation here.
Mindfulness, as Langer defines it, is not a practice at all. It’s a way of being. It happens in real time, when you actively notice new things or see familiar things in new ways.
This shift in perspective is powerful for adults with ADHD, who often feel stuck in autopilot mode or trapped by routines.
Why Certainty Creates Mindlessness
Dr. Langer explains that much of our stress and unhappiness comes from mindlessness operating like robots, convinced we “know” things that aren’t always true.
Take “1 + 1 = 2.” In some contexts, it doesn’t.
A pile of laundry plus another pile is still one pile.
In base-2 math, 1 + 1 = 10.
When we cling to certainty, we stop noticing. But when we approach life with curiosity and awareness, we give ourselves choices. And with choices, we gain freedom.
ADHD, Negative Labels, and Language Traps
As someone diagnosed late in life, I shared with Dr. Langer how adults with ADHD grow up hearing 20,000 more negative statements at school by age ten compared to neurotypical peers. This repetition shapes our identity through language traps and labels like lazy, troublemaker, or inconsistent.
Dr. Langer reminds us:
Labels are created by others. They are not absolute truths.
Rules and systems are designed by people who may be very different from us (think a 6’5” man designing sports equipment for someone 5’3”).
What seems like a “flaw” may simply be a mismatch between who you are and who created the standard.
For ADHD adults, this means reframing so-called “problems” as strengths: impulsivity can also be spontaneity; inconsistency can also be flexibility.
The Mindful Body: Breaking Free from Mind-Body Dualism
In her book The Mindful Body, Dr. Langer challenges the idea that the mind and body are separate. Her research shows that our mindset directly shapes our physical health.
Some of her most fascinating studies:
The Counterclockwise Study: Elderly men who lived for a week as if it were decades earlier showed measurable improvements in vision, memory, strength, and even looked younger.
Chambermaids and Exercise: Hotel housekeeping staff who were told their work counted as exercise lost weight and lowered blood pressure without changing diet or activity.
Wound Healing and Time: Small wounds healed faster or slower depending on whether participants believed time was passing quickly or slowly.
The lesson for ADHD adults: our beliefs and awareness can literally change our experience of symptoms, health, and energy.
Practical Strategies for ADHD Adults
Dr. Langer offers several practical mindfulness strategies that apply beautifully for Wise Squirrels:
Notice Three New Things: Each day, look for at least three new details about your environment, work, or relationships. This trains the brain to stay engaged.
Question “Certainty”: Instead of assuming “this is how it is,” ask, “What else could this be?”
Reframe Labels: Replace negative self-talk (impulsive, distracted, inconsistent) with their positive counterparts (spontaneous, otherwise attracted, flexible).
Stress Check: Ask yourself, Is this a tragedy or just an inconvenience? Almost always, it’s the latter.
Key Takeaways
Mindfulness is noticing, not meditating. You can start anytime, anywhere.
Language traps us. Labels are not destiny. Reframe them to see your strengths.
Your mind and body are one. Changing your perspective can improve your health.
ADHD is not a flaw. It’s a different operating system with unique advantages.
Everything is changeable. Rules, labels, and even symptoms are not fixed.
Listen, Learn, and Take Action
This episode is a must-listen for neurodivergent adults navigating ADHD, late diagnosis, or the heavy weight of negative labels. Dr. Langer’s research is a reminder that your story isn’t fixed; you have more influence over your attention, your health, and your life than you may believe.
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[00:00.000 --> 00:15.320] Welcome to Wise Squirrels, the podcast for late diagnosed adults with ADHD.
[00:15.320 --> 00:18.120] I'm your host, Dave Delaney.
[00:18.120 --> 00:23.600] I am delighted today to introduce Dr. Ellen Langer.
[00:23.600 --> 00:28.360] She's a pioneering social psychologist and researcher who earned her doctorate in
[00:28.360 --> 00:32.200] social and clinical psychology from Yale University.
[00:32.200 --> 00:36.800] She became the first woman to gain tenure in Harvard Psychology Department and she's
[00:36.800 --> 00:41.640] often called the mother of mindfulness and you're about to find out why.
[00:41.640 --> 00:47.960] Dr. Langer has also authored 12 books in over 200 scholarly articles and her groundbreaking
[00:47.960 --> 00:54.960] studies on mindfulness and health and aging continue to influence both science and society.
[00:54.960 --> 00:59.720] In her most recent book, The Mindful Body, has been called the Game Changer and how we
[00:59.720 --> 01:01.920] think about health and well-being.
[01:01.920 --> 01:08.200] I am also excited to share that I'm going to give away two copies of her book, just head
[01:08.200 --> 01:13.360] over to whysquirrels.com for details on how to enter that draw.
[01:13.360 --> 01:18.080] Your known is the mother of mindfulness which I absolutely love and I've had a lot of
[01:18.080 --> 01:24.200] great guests on the podcast talking about mindfulness but also meditation and I know
[01:24.200 --> 01:29.040] you think of that a little differently so that's one thing I would love to jump in
[01:29.040 --> 01:30.040] on is.
[01:30.040 --> 01:32.040] It's a good place.
[01:32.040 --> 01:36.400] By the way, I did some of the very early research on meditation.
[01:36.400 --> 01:43.000] It's just that mindfulness as we study it, it's not a practice, it's a way of being.
[01:43.000 --> 01:49.440] All you need to do is actively notice new things or new things about the things you thought
[01:49.440 --> 01:53.760] you knew and then you'd see, gee, you didn't know it as well as you thought you did.
[01:53.760 --> 02:01.000] What happens is because we're so certain, we're not noticing and we're not aware that
[02:01.000 --> 02:06.960] we're not there because we're not there to be aware of not being there.
[02:06.960 --> 02:13.440] Mentally, the 50 years of research has shown me that virtually all of us are mindless almost
[02:13.440 --> 02:19.080] all of the time and it's very easy to become mindful.
[02:19.080 --> 02:24.080] When you meditation is a practice, so you step out of the world for 20 minutes twice
[02:24.080 --> 02:28.840] a day, do your practice, meditation isn't mindfulness.
[02:28.840 --> 02:35.800] Meditation is a practice you undergo, hopefully, to result in post-meditative mindfulness.
[02:35.800 --> 02:40.960] Mindfulness is we study it is immediate, so let's say you are to visit me at my house.
[02:40.960 --> 02:42.600] So Dave, you've never been here.
[02:42.600 --> 02:45.400] You don't have to practice anything, you'd walk in and everything would be new.
[02:45.400 --> 02:47.640] Oh, did she do that painting?
[02:47.640 --> 02:49.720] Is that strange thing over there?
[02:49.720 --> 02:52.200] You would clearly notice.
[02:52.200 --> 02:59.960] Now two ways to become mindful is top down and a bottom up, top down is general, which
[02:59.960 --> 03:05.840] is to recognize that uncertainty is ubiquitous.
[03:05.840 --> 03:10.520] There is no situation where we should be certain.
[03:10.520 --> 03:12.520] Everything is always changing.
[03:12.520 --> 03:14.480] Everything looks different from different perspectives.
[03:14.480 --> 03:16.880] So we can't know.
[03:16.880 --> 03:20.960] So that way you approach every situation as if it's new.
[03:20.960 --> 03:26.960] Now people don't fully appreciate that and if I'm doing this in person, I'll embarrass
[03:26.960 --> 03:29.360] somebody, so let me embarrass you, Dave.
[03:29.360 --> 03:35.520] So the one fact people think they know that they're absolutely sure of is how much is
[03:35.520 --> 03:37.360] one plus one.
[03:37.360 --> 03:39.760] So Dave, how much is one plus one?
[03:39.760 --> 03:40.760] Two.
[03:40.760 --> 03:41.760] Okay, right.
[03:41.760 --> 03:42.760] That's what we've been taught.
[03:42.760 --> 03:44.560] You tune out, right?
[03:44.560 --> 03:48.160] But it turns out one plus one is not always two.
[03:48.160 --> 03:53.920] If you add one pile of laundry, plus one pile of laundry, one plus one is one.
[03:53.920 --> 03:58.720] If you add one cloud, plus one cloud, one plus one is one.
[03:58.720 --> 04:05.000] And it turns out that even if you are just doing it in terms of arithmetic, one plus
[04:05.000 --> 04:11.040] one isn't always two, one plus one is two if you're using a base 10 number system.
[04:11.040 --> 04:15.880] If you're using a base two number system, one plus one is written as 10.
[04:15.880 --> 04:16.880] So just think about it.
[04:16.880 --> 04:20.160] If next time somebody asks you, how much is one plus one?
[04:20.160 --> 04:26.920] You can say two, one, ten, nine, the answer is it depends.
[04:26.920 --> 04:30.360] And when you're mindful, you have choices.
[04:30.360 --> 04:33.880] When you're mindless, you have no choice.
[04:33.880 --> 04:36.960] And it makes you no different from a robot.
[04:36.960 --> 04:40.600] And so if you ask yourself a simple question, are robots happy?
[04:40.600 --> 04:46.120] No, you know, so you can't be happy unless you're mindful.
[04:46.120 --> 04:51.520] So that's top down, bottom up, start with the small things and go outside and notice
[04:51.520 --> 04:52.520] three new things.
[04:52.520 --> 04:57.160] Now you've walked outside your door every day for however long your life or have lived
[04:57.160 --> 04:58.160] there.
[04:58.160 --> 05:01.080] And so you're blind to almost everything that's there.
[05:01.080 --> 05:03.320] So notice three new things.
[05:03.320 --> 05:07.800] Notice three new things, three isn't magical, it could be four or five, but at least three
[05:07.800 --> 05:12.480] new things about the person you live with, the person you work with, the way you work
[05:12.480 --> 05:14.120] might be done differently.
[05:14.120 --> 05:18.960] Each time you do this, each time you notice new things about things you thought you
[05:18.960 --> 05:23.160] knew, you realize, hey, I didn't know this as well as I thought I'd do.
[05:23.160 --> 05:27.680] And you do that from over again and then you end up in the same place realizing we don't
[05:27.680 --> 05:29.400] really know anything.
[05:29.400 --> 05:30.400] It's very exciting.
[05:30.400 --> 05:32.760] You know, I was at this horse event.
[05:32.760 --> 05:37.680] And remember, I was an A plus, I mean, the person everybody hated in class or an A plus
[05:37.680 --> 05:38.680] thing.
[05:38.680 --> 05:43.440] When I'm at this horse event and this man asked me, would I watch his horse for him because
[05:43.440 --> 05:47.920] he wants to get his horse, a hot dog, hot dogs, what's he talking about?
[05:47.920 --> 05:49.760] What does don't eat meat, right?
[05:49.760 --> 05:53.280] Because I know as well as you know one and one is too.
[05:53.280 --> 05:55.120] He comes back with the hot dog.
[05:55.120 --> 05:56.120] I say sure.
[05:56.120 --> 05:59.600] He comes back with the hot dog, the horse ate it.
[05:59.600 --> 06:05.480] And it was then I realized, wait a second, you know, that I probably don't know anything,
[06:05.480 --> 06:10.160] which to me was actually exciting because it opened up all sorts of possibilities.
[06:10.160 --> 06:13.560] Now, lots of this comes from science.
[06:13.560 --> 06:17.280] And in science, you do a study and you get a result.
[06:17.280 --> 06:21.160] The result is only a probability, not an absolute.
[06:21.160 --> 06:25.240] So if you were to test horses and say, well, how big are these horses?
[06:25.240 --> 06:27.240] What was the last time they ate?
[06:27.240 --> 06:31.360] How much meat are we mixing with all of these things that are not listed?
[06:31.440 --> 06:37.040] When choices are made there, you'd find that most of them didn't eat the meat.
[06:37.040 --> 06:39.080] It's too much to say all of that.
[06:39.080 --> 06:42.880] So it's shortened to horses don't eat meat, you see.
[06:42.880 --> 06:48.160] And so our certainty leads us to be mindless.
[06:48.160 --> 06:57.240] In fact, a cute way of understanding mindlessness is frequently an error, but rarely in doubt.
[06:57.240 --> 07:03.520] And so another thing about this, which is really important, is that whenever you're having
[07:03.520 --> 07:06.480] fun, it's because you're mindful.
[07:06.480 --> 07:12.320] This act of noticing the neurons are firing and all of these decades of research has shown
[07:12.320 --> 07:15.840] that it's literally and figuratively in liveny.
[07:15.840 --> 07:22.080] Early studies, we make elderly people more mindful, active, and they live longer.
[07:22.080 --> 07:29.280] And again, if we just think about robots, robots are a program to do whatever they did before
[07:29.280 --> 07:33.600] and just keep doing it over and over again, which is the one we're mindless.
[07:33.600 --> 07:37.400] And of course, nobody would think robots are happy.
[07:37.400 --> 07:41.760] Not yet, anyway.
[07:41.760 --> 07:46.160] When they are happy, we will definitely be unhappy, but I digress.
[07:46.160 --> 07:50.240] Not necessarily, it's as contagious, no, but anyway.
[07:50.240 --> 07:52.800] That's another discussion.
[07:52.800 --> 07:57.640] So tell me, like, yeah, and you said a lot there, which is amazing.
[07:57.640 --> 08:04.560] I think one thing that I find a quote that you said about language trapping us and how
[08:04.560 --> 08:12.360] negative self-talk can become real, but in addition to that, there's a lot of talk about
[08:12.360 --> 08:15.720] how, and I think I don't remember the exact studies and things.
[08:15.720 --> 08:19.880] And I should preface this by saying, I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on the internet.
[08:19.880 --> 08:30.640] So, but with ADHD as a child, you are, it's said that you hear at least 20,000 more negative
[08:30.640 --> 08:34.040] feedback by the time you're about 10 years old.
[08:34.040 --> 08:41.920] And I certainly can attest to that, and most people I speak with also can who have ADHD.
[08:41.920 --> 08:48.840] So when you're told so many negative things as a child, you start to believe that, and
[08:48.840 --> 08:52.360] this language starts to trap us, because then we start.
[08:52.360 --> 08:57.880] And if you're undiagnosed with ADHD, then, you know, the comorbidities that are strange
[08:57.880 --> 09:00.160] bedpillars, yeah, like anxiety and depression.
[09:00.160 --> 09:05.600] So tell me a little bit about how language traps us and how we can overcome some of that.
[09:05.600 --> 09:11.880] There's so much that we've just packed in there, but the first thing language traps us because
[09:11.880 --> 09:17.600] it takes on life that exists on a continuum, for instance.
[09:17.600 --> 09:22.920] You know, so we have, you're good, you're a little better, you're better still.
[09:22.920 --> 09:28.760] We attach numbers to that, you're an A student, the B student, the C student, and we act
[09:28.760 --> 09:31.000] as if that's who we are.
[09:31.000 --> 09:37.280] We realize the whole continuum could have been labeled differently.
[09:37.280 --> 09:44.000] Let me give you, gee, there's so much I want to tell you, you know, the more similar
[09:44.000 --> 09:52.080] you are to the person who named the thing, the easier it is to do well.
[09:52.080 --> 09:54.280] The reverse of that, the more different you are.
[09:54.280 --> 10:02.000] So let's use, when I give talks, and I'll have somebody, I'll ask, is there somebody very
[10:02.000 --> 10:06.840] tall, and usually there's somebody six, five, a man, and we'll ask them to come to the
[10:06.840 --> 10:08.040] stage.
[10:08.040 --> 10:09.520] And there we are next to each other.
[10:09.520 --> 10:11.160] We look pretty silly.
[10:11.160 --> 10:17.320] His hand is three inches larger than mine, okay, and so I don't even have to say anything.
[10:17.320 --> 10:19.400] We look ridiculous.
[10:19.400 --> 10:25.360] And then I say, should we do anything physical the same way, because it seems bizarre, right?
[10:25.360 --> 10:31.240] I mean, even if we were using the same, not at the same time, but the same toilet, it's
[10:31.240 --> 10:36.600] the same height, one of us are not getting our biological needs met.
[10:36.600 --> 10:38.200] But he designed the game.
[10:38.200 --> 10:44.320] This is how you hold the tennis racket, the hockey stick, the golf club, the more different
[10:44.320 --> 10:50.560] I am from him, the more important it is for me to find my own way to do it.
[10:50.560 --> 10:51.560] Right.
[10:51.560 --> 10:59.480] Okay, so what happens is when people label things, we act as if those labels in some sense
[10:59.480 --> 11:04.520] were almost handed down from the heavens, rather than they can be rearranged to better
[11:04.520 --> 11:06.000] meet our own needs.
[11:06.000 --> 11:12.680] The instructions people are given are based on, for example, that six foot five person,
[11:12.680 --> 11:15.320] not for a five three female.
[11:15.320 --> 11:16.320] Yeah.
[11:16.320 --> 11:22.560] Very different, because if I design the game or the furniture or anything, he'd have difficulty
[11:22.560 --> 11:24.160] fitting into it, right?
[11:24.160 --> 11:25.160] Right.
[11:25.160 --> 11:27.400] And then he would feel there's something wrong with him.
[11:27.400 --> 11:34.160] So the point is, very often when we're led to believe there's something wrong with us,
[11:34.160 --> 11:39.160] it's just that we're different from whoever wrote the rules.
[11:39.160 --> 11:40.960] All right.
[11:40.960 --> 11:46.720] So if you're talking about ADHD, how quickly is one supposed to switch topics?
[11:46.720 --> 11:49.480] How many things is one supposed to notice?
[11:49.480 --> 11:56.760] There are no rules for this, but the person who wrote the rule lays out a plan and you
[11:56.760 --> 12:02.160] differ from that, like me and the six foot five person, you're going to suffer.
[12:02.160 --> 12:07.720] Now the problem is, once we put ourselves into a category, or somebody puts us into
[12:07.720 --> 12:13.000] a category, into any category, linguistically, right?
[12:13.000 --> 12:16.480] And we want to see, do we fit in that category?
[12:16.480 --> 12:18.000] We look for evidence.
[12:18.000 --> 12:27.880] So if I want to look for evidence, am I stupid, am I a troublemaker, am I ungenerous,
[12:27.880 --> 12:32.120] whatever we call ourselves, you're always going to find evidence.
[12:32.120 --> 12:34.680] No matter what you ask.
[12:34.680 --> 12:39.920] So if I said am I smart, I'm going to find evidence for that.
[12:39.920 --> 12:44.480] If I say am I stupid, I'm going to find evidence for that.
[12:44.480 --> 12:48.240] No matter what you ask, you have to be careful.
[12:48.240 --> 12:54.600] If you ask the negative questions, you're going to get negative evidence that that's negative.
[12:54.600 --> 12:55.600] Yes.
[12:55.600 --> 12:58.720] So that's the first most important thing.
[12:58.720 --> 13:04.320] And so two things when you're talking about any special population is to realize that
[13:04.320 --> 13:07.000] everybody in the world is different.
[13:07.000 --> 13:12.320] Some people have decided what the rules are and we're supposed to all fit into that.
[13:12.320 --> 13:19.400] You know, I imagine, so I was in Vietnam many, many decades ago.
[13:19.400 --> 13:22.400] And the Vietnamese are tiny people.
[13:22.400 --> 13:26.320] And so the furniture is tiny.
[13:26.320 --> 13:32.920] And you know, I'm not big, but still I couldn't comfortably sit in the chair that I was trying
[13:32.920 --> 13:34.520] to sit in.
[13:34.520 --> 13:40.560] You see, so now what am I likely to do is to think what's wrong with me, I'm different
[13:40.560 --> 13:46.880] from everybody else, rather than realize all I am is different from the person who decided
[13:46.880 --> 13:49.080] the size that chair should be.
[13:49.080 --> 13:50.080] Right.
[13:50.080 --> 13:51.080] Okay.
[13:51.080 --> 13:52.880] Is any of that clear?
[13:52.880 --> 13:53.880] It's absolutely clear.
[13:53.880 --> 13:59.760] So let's say that, let's say an office has tiny chairs and you've been hired at that
[13:59.760 --> 14:04.840] office and you've got a job now, but you're unable to fit in that chair so to speak, right?
[14:04.840 --> 14:05.840] Easy.
[14:05.840 --> 14:07.080] That example.
[14:07.080 --> 14:09.080] What do you do?
[14:09.080 --> 14:10.080] Yeah, what do you do?
[14:10.080 --> 14:16.200] I mean, what you do the first thing is that you recognize that and the only problem you
[14:16.200 --> 14:21.360] have is that you're different from the person who designed in this case, the furniture
[14:21.360 --> 14:23.840] or the rules or anything else.
[14:23.840 --> 14:31.280] The sink in is once you realize, this is a harder one, realizing that everything, everything
[14:31.280 --> 14:38.840] that is was a one point of decision, somebody decided how it should be, what we should do,
[14:38.840 --> 14:44.680] what we should eat, how fast we should walk, whatever it is.
[14:44.680 --> 14:51.720] When you recognize that it was a decision made by other people, you should then realize
[14:51.720 --> 14:57.000] that everything is mutable, everything can be changed.
[14:57.000 --> 15:01.960] So let's say it's the reverse that you're very tiny and you're in an office where the
[15:01.960 --> 15:04.080] chairs are very big, big.
[15:04.080 --> 15:10.200] You can bring something in to make the chair more comfortable for you or bring in your
[15:10.200 --> 15:11.200] own chair.
[15:11.200 --> 15:13.200] Make a accommodations.
[15:13.200 --> 15:19.520] Yeah, without having the world point to finger at you because there's nothing wrong with
[15:19.520 --> 15:26.520] you, it's just that you're different from the person who was in charge way that went.
[15:26.520 --> 15:27.520] Yeah.
[15:27.520 --> 15:37.040] It's very important because too often people wear labels and are called names by others
[15:37.040 --> 15:43.920] and then what they do is they seek hypothesis confirming data to am I that thing you just
[15:43.920 --> 15:44.920] called me?
[15:44.920 --> 15:48.320] And again, if you ask yourself that question, you go on that journey and you're going
[15:48.320 --> 15:52.560] to find evidence and then you can't feel good about yourself.
[15:52.560 --> 15:53.560] So go on.
[15:53.560 --> 15:54.560] Sort of interrupt.
[15:54.560 --> 16:03.360] Like, so part of the journey of the late diagnosis of ADHD is you start to, like what
[16:03.360 --> 16:08.600] the way I explain is I start looking at my life through the lens of ADHD.
[16:08.600 --> 16:14.520] So understanding now, understanding my neurotype, understanding that there are, you know, things
[16:14.520 --> 16:20.000] that come along with ADHD and of course, no two people are the same, but it is an acronym.
[16:20.000 --> 16:25.320] There are some consistent things in different presentations of ADHD, of course, as well.
[16:25.320 --> 16:33.000] But so as I looked through my, my moving forward, I feel like this is kind of Dave 2.0 now.
[16:33.000 --> 16:37.680] Like I feel better about myself because I understand my quote unquote operating system as
[16:37.680 --> 16:39.680] I call it.
[16:39.680 --> 16:43.920] But and I know, you know, there's dangerous places where people can fall too far into like
[16:43.920 --> 16:49.000] reflecting on the past and what those stories tell them and, you know, I could have done
[16:49.000 --> 16:54.040] this or should have done that, but putting that aside, let me interrupt you, Dave.
[16:54.040 --> 16:55.040] Yeah.
[16:55.040 --> 17:02.000] I mean, the two points there and there's no easy answer that sometimes when you get a diagnosis,
[17:02.000 --> 17:08.080] thank goodness, you know, now I know, you know, it's not me in some sense is whatever this
[17:08.080 --> 17:10.880] diagnosis says that I am.
[17:10.880 --> 17:19.680] But the downside of a diagnosis is that we don't typically try to change.
[17:19.680 --> 17:28.040] We accept the diagnosis, you know, so for example, we do this on the other end of things.
[17:28.040 --> 17:31.240] Let me, one of my favorite annoyances.
[17:31.240 --> 17:38.960] We have some people who are called super tasters and we have super memorizers and super duper,
[17:38.960 --> 17:45.400] whenever these people are and it's just implicitly that the rest of us can't do this.
[17:45.400 --> 17:46.400] Right.
[17:46.400 --> 17:52.160] You don't even try to improve your smell, taste, memory, you know, whatever it might be.
[17:52.160 --> 17:53.160] Yes.
[17:53.160 --> 17:56.000] So positive inside out version of this.
[17:56.000 --> 18:03.280] Now if you accept a diagnosis, you know, there's a way to get the best of both worlds.
[18:03.280 --> 18:04.280] Okay.
[18:04.280 --> 18:07.880] You start off and you say, yeah, I've got ADHD.
[18:07.880 --> 18:14.520] But okay, doesn't mean all my life I have to have ADHD, doesn't mean the degree to which
[18:14.520 --> 18:20.960] I have ADHD has to remain constant, you know, we did a study many years ago that speaks
[18:20.960 --> 18:22.560] to all of this.
[18:22.560 --> 18:29.800] So because of, you know, a friend of mine had been diagnosed with ADHD, some fabulously
[18:29.800 --> 18:35.400] successful woman, before they were many women who were fabulously successful.
[18:35.400 --> 18:36.400] What is this?
[18:36.480 --> 18:38.680] She had visited some psychiatrist runs.
[18:38.680 --> 18:44.080] So she comes back and I know nothing at that point of about ADHD.
[18:44.080 --> 18:49.920] So I look it up and I say, well, I have it too, you know, in some way anybody who successful
[18:49.920 --> 18:55.760] is going to have it, because it's good to be able to shift gears to notice many different
[18:55.760 --> 19:04.000] things, you know, to not be stuck in a single place, but it's not presented that way to
[19:04.000 --> 19:05.000] most of us.
[19:05.000 --> 19:10.080] So then I started thinking about it some more and I thought, you know, people, when they
[19:10.080 --> 19:15.880] try to pay attention to things, what they tend to do is think that you should hold the
[19:15.880 --> 19:23.160] stimulus that your target of your attention still and focus on it as if you're a camera.
[19:23.160 --> 19:26.960] So Dave, look at your finger.
[19:26.960 --> 19:28.280] Focus on your finger.
[19:28.280 --> 19:29.280] Okay.
[19:29.280 --> 19:33.680] So what will happen is your finger is going to move around a little bit.
[19:33.680 --> 19:34.680] Yeah.
[19:34.680 --> 19:38.680] Now, because you're not supposed to hold things still.
[19:38.680 --> 19:45.120] So if instead of paying attention by holding things still, I told you notice new things about
[19:45.120 --> 19:46.120] your finger.
[19:46.120 --> 19:47.120] Yeah.
[19:47.120 --> 19:50.120] I've noticed new things that's a fat little finger and what is that line?
[19:50.120 --> 19:51.120] Oh, look at that nail.
[19:51.120 --> 19:52.120] It's awful.
[19:52.120 --> 19:53.120] Yeah.
[19:53.120 --> 19:54.120] Okay.
[19:54.120 --> 20:01.520] So if part of the problem, the major part of the problem is difficulty paying attention.
[20:01.520 --> 20:07.800] My hypothesis was that's because people are doing the wrong thing when they're paying
[20:07.800 --> 20:08.800] attention.
[20:08.800 --> 20:14.800] They're trying to hold the stimulus still rather than mindfully notice things about it.
[20:14.800 --> 20:18.080] So we took people who had ADHD.
[20:18.080 --> 20:24.040] We took the elderly because elderly is supposed to have difficulty paying attention or at least
[20:24.040 --> 20:29.680] this used to be the case and we took Harvard students who was supposed to be perfect.
[20:29.680 --> 20:30.680] Okay.
[20:31.160 --> 20:36.880] In each case, we showed them things and we had them actively pay attention.
[20:36.880 --> 20:41.920] So focus, concentrate, which is translated in most people's minds as whole, what you're
[20:41.920 --> 20:43.080] looking at still.
[20:43.080 --> 20:44.080] Yeah.
[20:44.080 --> 20:49.400] Moses noticed new things about it, which is a tend to it mindfully.
[20:49.400 --> 20:56.040] And every group, the elderly, those labeled with ADHD and even the Harvard students were
[20:56.040 --> 20:58.240] better at what they were doing.
[20:58.840 --> 20:59.840] Interesting.
[20:59.840 --> 21:05.440] Did you have like, did you test those ADHD years beforehand because of the different presentations
[21:05.440 --> 21:10.840] because it's not always like there's an attentive presentation, but there's also hyper focus
[21:10.840 --> 21:13.240] or hyperactive as well.
[21:13.240 --> 21:19.080] But I didn't like, yeah, no, I did this study way before the world was talking about.
[21:19.080 --> 21:27.200] And at that point, it was, yeah, it was just to put out there in the world that maybe
[21:27.200 --> 21:34.080] there's not a problem that's so hard to change, but rather, people are just doing the
[21:34.080 --> 21:39.280] wrong thing when they're trying to pay attention because you can imagine the kid in school,
[21:39.280 --> 21:46.040] newer in school, and you know, they teach, they focus, you know, what that means to you,
[21:46.040 --> 21:50.760] I don't know what I'm supposed to do, but I'm looking at that thing and giving that
[21:50.760 --> 21:56.920] type of attention to it as not likely to be successful, looking at it mindfully would
[21:56.920 --> 21:57.920] be it.
[21:57.920 --> 22:00.160] Then things become more interesting to us.
[22:00.160 --> 22:01.160] Yes.
[22:01.160 --> 22:02.360] And you've always used that.
[22:02.360 --> 22:09.840] I love how you talk about mindlessness and mindlessly, you know, because it's a, I'm
[22:09.840 --> 22:13.080] still, I'm still it from you because that's the contrast, I think, with mindfulness is
[22:13.080 --> 22:16.840] that if you're not being mindful, you're being mindless, and I heard that from you.
[22:16.840 --> 22:24.520] Not the other, and you know, the consequences of being mindful are extraordinary, I mean,
[22:24.520 --> 22:27.400] we have no matter what it is you're trying to improve.
[22:27.400 --> 22:35.160] So here in these early studies with ADD, we find that we're able to improve people's attention,
[22:35.160 --> 22:41.880] they become more charismatic, they become healthier, happier, you know, 50 years is a lot
[22:41.880 --> 22:47.160] of time to stick in different measures, and so you put your downless to everything.
[22:47.160 --> 22:53.160] And you know, and if you think about it, if you're going to show up for something, then
[22:53.160 --> 22:56.000] show up for it, you know, be there.
[22:56.000 --> 23:00.520] And when you're mindless, you're not there, you're, you know, being where you were in
[23:00.520 --> 23:08.000] the past, bringing that to the present, so when you're mindless, you're assuming that
[23:08.000 --> 23:13.000] everything is the same as it was before, so you're going to find the same way, you're
[23:13.000 --> 23:20.320] not noticing anything new, you're not aware of context perspective, and when you're mindless,
[23:20.320 --> 23:26.160] your behavior is governed by rules when you're and routines.
[23:26.160 --> 23:32.560] When mindful, you could have rules and routines, but they guide what you're doing, which means
[23:32.640 --> 23:38.320] that when they don't make sense, you don't do it anymore, you know, you're driving, and
[23:38.320 --> 23:43.760] the rule is you stay on the right side in the America, at least not in London, but in the
[23:43.760 --> 23:48.320] States, you stay on the right side of the double line.
[23:48.320 --> 23:55.360] Okay, so now it's the winter, there is a big block of ice that you see in front of you,
[23:56.640 --> 24:01.920] nobody approaching, there's nobody behind you, I personally, I don't know if the law
[24:02.160 --> 24:08.640] would say that this, but I think it's stupid, so you're mindless to just drive straight over
[24:08.640 --> 24:13.680] the ice and risk whatever would happen that way, you know, I would go around it.
[24:14.480 --> 24:20.640] So the point is, when you're there, you can take advantage of opportunities to which you
[24:20.640 --> 24:25.360] otherwise would be blind, and can avert the danger that is not yet arisen.
[24:26.000 --> 24:27.440] Yeah, that makes sense.
[24:27.440 --> 24:32.800] I do want to talk about the mindful body, but before we jump into that, or maybe it ties into
[24:32.800 --> 24:39.920] that a little bit, you know, you've done a lot of studies around time and the perceiving time
[24:39.920 --> 24:50.320] and things like that and how, with ADHD, one of the often side effects or comorbidities of ADHD is
[24:50.880 --> 24:58.160] what people call time blindness, where you just completely lose track of time, where days or hours
[24:58.160 --> 25:05.520] or months even go by like lightning fast or painfully slow, like for example, you know, we often,
[25:05.520 --> 25:09.280] you know, a lot of people are always looking for the flow, they're trying to get in the flow,
[25:09.280 --> 25:14.640] ADHDers have no problem getting in the flow, it's just sometimes that hyper focus is focused on
[25:14.720 --> 25:19.520] the wrong thing. It's like, you know, what the right thing is.
[25:19.520 --> 25:23.520] Well, you know, if your bank account isn't showing enough digits, then obviously,
[25:23.520 --> 25:28.880] you need to be working more rather than playing or rather than, you know, even in a way this
[25:28.880 --> 25:34.400] podcast has been sort of that for me too, but it's a labor of love, of course, and that's why we're
[25:34.400 --> 25:38.000] here. Talk a little bit about time, though, like how...
[25:38.560 --> 25:47.120] Before we do that, let's go back to language. You know, so, you know, I have so many almost
[25:47.120 --> 25:52.800] earthshaking findings over these years, and we can talk about them. The one thing that was more
[25:52.800 --> 25:59.680] important to me to come to than any of the others was the very simple, in some sense, understanding
[25:59.680 --> 26:07.840] that our behavior makes sense or else we wouldn't do it. It's just that simple. And with ADHD or
[26:07.840 --> 26:14.960] just a kid in school who's mischievous, you don't have to have any diagnostic category, that if the
[26:14.960 --> 26:20.800] teacher is talking and that child is not paying attention to the teacher, that child is called
[26:20.800 --> 26:28.720] distracted. I would call the child otherwise attracted, which is very different. You know,
[26:28.800 --> 26:34.960] if you have the power, I have the problem. And so, imagine, for instance, you know,
[26:36.400 --> 26:40.480] I'm blocking for a second on his name. Who wrote the Sillians?
[26:41.360 --> 26:50.880] Oh, oh God, yeah, I'm blocking too. Yeah, I'm sorry. Okay, yeah, you know, let's say you, you know,
[26:50.880 --> 26:56.400] so you're in school and you're bored by what the teacher is saying and you're noticing
[26:56.400 --> 27:05.280] ants on the floor. But really noticing them, you know, is that a distraction? Well, it could become,
[27:05.280 --> 27:11.840] you know, a major life's work for you to teach the rest of us the way ants are not that different
[27:11.840 --> 27:16.800] from people and we can learn something from their group performance or what have you. All right,
[27:16.800 --> 27:23.520] so if I say that anybody who is distracted is instead otherwise attracted, it changes the whole
[27:23.520 --> 27:29.680] feeling of what's going on. Right. You see the value judgment there that rather than attend to
[27:29.680 --> 27:36.400] these interesting ants, I should pay attention to this teacher. Why? But I mean, the school,
[27:36.400 --> 27:44.160] the education system isn't designed for no, it's not perhaps it should. Oh, yeah, I think that,
[27:44.160 --> 27:51.040] you know, these are the places that are teaching us one plus one is two. Yes, just not all the time.
[27:51.840 --> 28:00.880] And so I think that on the schools now, I'm working on changing this, largely responsible for
[28:00.880 --> 28:11.040] onlinelessness. And I think that in some bizarre way, the child who has ADHD is going to be saved
[28:11.040 --> 28:17.680] from this rather than just due to flee to and out the world and think that they know it. You know,
[28:17.680 --> 28:22.880] we do so many things that are bizarre. I don't know if people talk about dyslexia anymore,
[28:22.880 --> 28:30.320] but in the past, yes, dyslexic has a reading disability and might switch letters around. So
[28:31.520 --> 28:39.360] you may see dog as God. Okay, so now if you were given a page to read, the type written page,
[28:39.360 --> 28:45.200] let's say, has 200 words on it. Maybe it has 250. It doesn't matter. The child or adult,
[28:45.200 --> 28:52.320] that's dyslexic might get two of those maximum five of those words wrong. That means they got
[28:52.320 --> 28:58.720] a hundred and ninety five of those words out of a two hundred correct. It seems bizarre to me
[28:59.360 --> 29:08.640] to then talk about a problem. And we have data where with kids from decades ago who are labeled as
[29:08.640 --> 29:16.640] dyslexic terms out that they're more mindful. Just as a left hander would be because the world is
[29:16.640 --> 29:24.880] geared towards people different from us. So who quite fit in. So we can't take everything for granted.
[29:24.880 --> 29:32.160] So we stay tuned in. Right. Does does good things for us going forward. Yeah, that's interesting.
[29:32.160 --> 29:39.200] Yeah, I'm totally on board with your school or new form of education because yeah,
[29:39.200 --> 29:45.120] no, I think you're spot on there. I think it's interesting that what I've learned with
[29:45.680 --> 29:52.320] obviously along my own journey with ADHD and how as an adult, especially somebody who's late
[29:52.320 --> 29:59.680] diagnosed, you're trying to find strategies to get the work done in the day that you're working
[29:59.680 --> 30:08.480] to do and meet the deadlines. And oftentimes fitting into a quote unquote neuro-typical world because
[30:10.240 --> 30:17.280] it's not you can't just choose. I know there are companies now with departments for neuro divergent
[30:17.280 --> 30:23.360] staff, which is fantastic because they see their talents and what they bring to the table that's
[30:23.360 --> 30:28.000] maybe a little different, maybe thinking outside of the box and all the other kind of associated
[30:28.000 --> 30:34.560] cliches, you know, like that. But yeah, what? I think that part of the stress
[30:35.920 --> 30:45.040] that people who are given a diagnosis of immunitis is not just ADHD is that it leads to self-doubt
[30:45.680 --> 30:53.440] and then negative self-talk. Yeah. So the same is true for an older population. So you get to
[30:53.440 --> 30:59.360] be my age, my friends constantly are worried, are they going to have dementia because they forgot
[30:59.360 --> 31:05.280] something. So if you're in a situation, especially if you're in a learning situation as you know,
[31:05.280 --> 31:13.120] kids with ADHD and you're afraid you're not going to be able to learn it. So you're talking to yourself
[31:13.120 --> 31:18.000] about all the problems you're going to have rather than actually doing the learning and
[31:18.720 --> 31:23.280] up for failure. So that simple thing that I said, I want to underscore it, Dave, because I really
[31:23.280 --> 31:31.520] think it's important. It's for people no matter whatever the world diagnoses us or us to realize
[31:31.520 --> 31:39.040] that what we do makes sense to us or else we wouldn't do it. And if we can feel comfortable with
[31:39.040 --> 31:44.560] that, then that works against all of the negative self-talk. Yes.
[31:46.720 --> 31:52.960] And so, you know, this will be kind of fun. We have a world that wants to teach people that what
[31:52.960 --> 31:58.560] you should do is say, please, thank you, and I'm sorry and whatever, please forgive me.
[31:59.760 --> 32:08.000] And some of these words, the forgiveness, is actually misleading. So let me explain this to you.
[32:09.040 --> 32:15.680] I was asked to give a sermon in one of the Harvard churches. Now I'm Jewish and I'm not religious at all.
[32:15.680 --> 32:21.280] But I also tend to say, yes, every time. So I say, joy. So now, what am I going to talk about,
[32:21.280 --> 32:26.640] right? What do you think about religion? And I start to think about forgiveness. It's not
[32:26.640 --> 32:34.800] religion, clearly, but I could get away with it. It sounds religiously. I do a deep dive in my head
[32:34.800 --> 32:38.400] about forgiveness. And I come up with something that's almost sacrilegious.
[32:39.600 --> 32:43.520] If you ask 10 people, is forgiveness good or bad, what are they going to tell you?
[32:44.160 --> 32:49.680] They're going to tell you it's good. Wonderful. If you ask 10 people, is blame good or bad,
[32:49.680 --> 32:55.280] what are they going to tell you? Bad. Bad, blame is bad. But you know, you don't blame,
[32:55.280 --> 33:02.560] excuse me, you can't forgive unless you first blame. Well, all of our forgiveness is because of
[33:02.560 --> 33:08.240] our blame. We're blame, right? Now, do you blame people for good things or bad things?
[33:09.120 --> 33:14.640] You blame people for bad things, right? But things in and of themselves are neither good nor bad.
[33:14.640 --> 33:20.240] It all depends on the way we view them. So what do we have here? We have people who see the world
[33:20.240 --> 33:29.280] negatively who blame and then forgive, which seems to me hardly divine. Now, of course, if you blame,
[33:29.280 --> 33:35.600] it's better to forgive than not. But there's a better than better way. I describe lots of these
[33:35.600 --> 33:42.800] situations in the book, which is to understand that from that other person's perspective,
[33:42.800 --> 33:48.400] they did what they did because it made sense. And that, you know, I don't want, you know,
[33:48.400 --> 33:55.040] so Dave, you and I become really close now. I don't want you to ever forgive me. I want you to
[33:55.040 --> 34:01.920] understand me. All right. And, you know, and if you understand that what I did make sense,
[34:01.920 --> 34:08.000] that would obviate the necessity for any blame, you know, I don't think in other words that all
[34:08.000 --> 34:15.920] of us are in very important ways, very different one from the next. And then if you thought what I
[34:15.920 --> 34:24.160] thought, excuse me, if you felt what I felt, you would do what I did. Yes. You know, so if you were
[34:24.160 --> 34:32.640] in the exact same circumstances with things relevant to you. And it's a very different kind of
[34:32.640 --> 34:38.480] world. It's a world, the world that I want to create as a world without all of these judgments.
[34:39.280 --> 34:44.400] And you don't judge yourself poorly and then you don't judge other people. So, for example,
[34:45.680 --> 34:51.840] excuse me a second. Yeah. So people, so I am extraordinarily gullible.
[34:52.000 --> 34:59.200] So I go to you, Dave, Dave, yeah, please help me not be gullible. And we look back over the times
[34:59.200 --> 35:05.520] I was amazing. Okay. And we both agree I shouldn't be gullible. But no matter how much I want to change,
[35:06.320 --> 35:13.440] I will always or most of the time still be gullible. Because going forward, no one says,
[35:13.440 --> 35:18.080] gee, now I'm going to be gullible. What am I doing going forward? I'm being trusting.
[35:19.040 --> 35:25.200] And I value being trusting. And as long as I value being trusting, there are times I'm going to
[35:25.200 --> 35:32.080] seem gullible. You are so damn inconsistent that drives everybody crazy. Yes. We try to change
[35:32.080 --> 35:37.920] you. You try to change yourself, but you're going to fail. Why is that? Because from your perspective,
[35:37.920 --> 35:46.080] you're being flexible, not inconsistent. Now you can't be as flexible unless it's inconsistent.
[35:46.080 --> 35:54.000] I am so impulsive. Oh, God, I hate myself for it. But as long as I value being spontaneous,
[35:54.000 --> 35:58.480] there are times I'm going to seem inconsistent. So you understand what I'm saying? Going forward,
[35:58.480 --> 36:04.960] no one wakes up in the morning and says, today I'm going to be gullible, impulsive, nasty,
[36:06.160 --> 36:15.520] overeat, attend to things poorly. So what are we doing? And it turns out each and every negative
[36:15.520 --> 36:21.360] description for ourselves has an equally strong positive alternative.
[36:22.880 --> 36:29.040] So in a little study we did way back when we gave people about 200 of these behavior descriptions.
[36:30.000 --> 36:38.160] So things like impulsive, gullible, inconsistent, you know, whatever. And people were told,
[36:38.160 --> 36:44.240] circle those things. You keep trying to change about yourself, but you keep failing. So for me,
[36:44.320 --> 36:52.640] gullible, impulsive. Okay. Then you turn the page over and in a mixed up order are the positive
[36:52.640 --> 37:01.360] versions of these words. So now we're asked, we ask our participants, those things you really value
[37:01.360 --> 37:08.880] about yourself, might being trusting and spontaneous. If you want me to stop being spontaneous,
[37:08.960 --> 37:15.600] impulsive, you have to get me to stop valuing being spontaneous, want me to stop being gullible,
[37:15.600 --> 37:22.080] you have to get me to stop valuing being trusting. I love that. And then what happens is, you know,
[37:22.080 --> 37:27.440] you probably don't want me to stop because you two, you know, basically we probably share the same
[37:27.440 --> 37:35.680] values. So that's the way we become easier on ourselves. And if we follow through with other
[37:35.680 --> 37:42.480] people easier on other people, and then it all sort of unfolds more naturally. And we appreciate
[37:42.480 --> 37:49.760] people. We appreciate the things that they can do, you know, better than we can do. It doesn't
[37:49.760 --> 37:58.400] matter what label they're given. You know, as I said before, the person who is dyslexic in our research
[37:58.400 --> 38:04.080] turns out to be more mindful. So it's good or bad to be dyslexic. Well, it's like everything
[38:04.080 --> 38:10.960] else. It depends. Yeah. We have our strengths as the point. Yeah. And I love what you're saying.
[38:10.960 --> 38:16.400] And I've got a couple of questions like one is about, and I've heard you talk about
[38:17.760 --> 38:22.880] like setting reminder, like setting timers all over the place. So you remember to be mindful in
[38:22.880 --> 38:30.400] moments. Yeah. But also with ADHD, because it's something we're born with, because, you know,
[38:30.400 --> 38:39.760] 99% and because it is something that because we lack dopamine leads to addictions and excess,
[38:39.760 --> 38:45.680] I mean, the studies have shown that Dr. Russell Barkley, who's like sort of the
[38:47.280 --> 38:53.760] probably the most renowned person in ADHD research found that with life expectancy is up to 13
[38:53.760 --> 39:00.160] years less, but we don't mind with, well, with undiagnosed and untreated ADHD, right?
[39:00.160 --> 39:05.920] So he don't know, how could they gather the data? I don't. I'm pretty sure.
[39:06.960 --> 39:12.320] I know it's, he's done a, like he's studied multiple studies on this and he's been, he's been in
[39:12.320 --> 39:21.120] this space forever. So in this section, I made a mistake. I said that with undiagnosed and untreated
[39:21.120 --> 39:29.920] ADHD, your life expectancy is 13 years less. I got a little flustered in the moment and didn't
[39:29.920 --> 39:37.120] get a chance to backtrack and point out that that is incorrect. But the fact is as important
[39:37.120 --> 39:45.920] and it is that with undiagnosed and untreated ADHD, your life expectancy can be up to 13 years
[39:46.720 --> 39:52.560] less. But with treatment, that can change everything. And so I do encourage you to check out
[39:52.560 --> 39:59.200] yscrills.com slash life where you can read more about that study and that commentary from Dr.
[39:59.200 --> 40:04.880] Russ Barkley. Okay, let's get back to this. So, but it makes sense to me because I used to,
[40:04.880 --> 40:09.280] when I was younger, I would drink like a fish on five years sober. I used to smoke like a chimney.
[40:09.280 --> 40:14.080] I would eat all the food on the, on the table. I would talk too much. And so these things,
[40:14.080 --> 40:21.120] these excessive things that are, that are part of ADHD, not for, you know, that are common. We crave,
[40:21.120 --> 40:27.920] we're trying to produce dopamine that we lack. And thus we end up getting it in, in sometimes in
[40:27.920 --> 40:34.720] the wrong ways, as opposed to the right ways. Okay, so I come from a very different perspective. So
[40:34.720 --> 40:40.960] in a very broad stroke, I disagree with almost everything you said. Okay. And I guess that means
[40:40.960 --> 40:48.160] that I'm the pariah. I disagree with this large body of research. So let, let's go back to the
[40:48.160 --> 40:59.440] mindful body. So I can explain my position, which is, people are oblivious to many people,
[40:59.440 --> 41:07.200] to their implicit belief in mind body dualism, which you have a mind to have a body. And so that's
[41:07.200 --> 41:13.040] why you only go to the doctor for your body and your oblivious to how important your psychology is
[41:13.040 --> 41:20.880] to your health, physical and mental. Now, the problem with mind body dualism is how do you get from
[41:20.880 --> 41:27.200] this fuzzy thing called the thought to something real called the body? You know, I've been talking
[41:27.200 --> 41:33.120] about this since the seven days. Yeah. And the world has caught on some, now people talk about mind
[41:33.120 --> 41:38.880] body connection. Connection doesn't get you any closer. How would they connect it? All right.
[41:38.880 --> 41:45.040] So everybody knows your thoughts have a big impact on your body. You know, you just have to walk
[41:45.040 --> 41:49.840] down the street in the fall and all of a sudden a leaf blows in your face and your startled,
[41:49.840 --> 41:55.280] your blood pressure and pulsing crease until you say, oh, it was just a leaf. Nothing. Yeah. Okay.
[41:55.280 --> 41:59.840] So we, well, you see somebody regurgitate and all of a sudden you feel like vomiting yourself.
[41:59.840 --> 42:07.440] Or your pizza study. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's okay. So for me, this is many, many years ago,
[42:07.440 --> 42:14.480] I say, oh, mind body, let's just put it all back together. If we make the mind and the body one,
[42:14.480 --> 42:21.040] then wherever we're putting one, we're necessarily putting the other. So we have a host of studies,
[42:21.040 --> 42:27.920] all reported in the mindful body, where we put the mind in unusual places and then take the measurements
[42:27.920 --> 42:34.960] from the body and the results are amazing in some sense. The very first of these was the
[42:34.960 --> 42:41.600] counterclockwise study. So in this study, what we did was retrofit a retreat to seem like it
[42:41.600 --> 42:46.560] was 20 years earlier. I didn't have the money to make it quite a Hollywood set, but it was good
[42:46.560 --> 42:52.560] enough. And then we're going to have elderly men live there as if they were the younger self. So
[42:52.560 --> 42:57.680] we're putting their minds back in time. So they spoke about past events as if they was just
[42:57.680 --> 43:05.360] unfolding, right? And they watched movies that were old, but as if, you know, these were new movies.
[43:06.160 --> 43:15.120] So on, less than a week, what we found was this is elderly men, their vision improved, their hearing
[43:15.120 --> 43:21.360] improve, their strength, their memory, and they looked noticeably younger, all with that
[43:21.360 --> 43:27.840] in medical intervention. We saw all of these studies. I'll give you just, you know, two more
[43:27.840 --> 43:34.080] and then we'll listen. And you did on the BBC, too? Yes. Yeah. The BBC said, let's see if we can
[43:34.080 --> 43:40.560] put this in action. And so they took elderly people. But the problem with the BBC was, first of
[43:40.560 --> 43:45.200] what wasn't a study, it was a demonstration and it was wonderful. That was actually nominated for a
[43:45.200 --> 43:53.280] BAFTA. But it wouldn't be seen by people in the States, only be seen in Great Britain. So
[43:54.080 --> 44:00.160] at some point, you know, several people have wanted to replicate, you know, do the BBC version here.
[44:01.280 --> 44:06.960] And I keep saying yes, I don't know what's holding it up. Anyway. Hold that flex, man. Yeah. Well,
[44:06.960 --> 44:10.880] that flex has come to, you know, I mean, it's a long story. These things
[44:11.520 --> 44:20.720] seem to take forever. We did another study on this mind body unity where we took chamber maids.
[44:20.720 --> 44:25.440] Now you asked chamber maids how much exercise are they getting? And they say they're not getting
[44:25.440 --> 44:31.120] any exercise because they think exercise is what you do after work. And after work, they just
[44:31.120 --> 44:38.400] started. Okay. So now we take these chamber maids and we simply divide them into two groups.
[44:38.400 --> 44:44.000] And we teach one of the two groups that they work as exercise. Making it bad is like working at
[44:44.000 --> 44:48.960] this machine at the gym, someone and so. So now we have two groups. One realizes they work as
[44:48.960 --> 44:54.960] exercise. The other does. We take lots of measures before we start. Lots of measures when we're
[44:54.960 --> 45:00.480] finished. They're not eating any differently, either group. They're not working. One group isn't
[45:00.480 --> 45:06.720] working harder than the other. Nevertheless, simply changing their mindsets and seeing
[45:06.800 --> 45:13.120] their work as exercise. They lost weight. There was a change in waist to hip ratio, body mess,
[45:13.120 --> 45:19.520] index, and their blood pressure came down just by changing them. Now, we'll go to the last study,
[45:19.520 --> 45:25.440] but there's so many in their fun. People should read them. In this study, we inflict a wound,
[45:26.080 --> 45:31.680] minor, just a little baby wound, right? Not individually and people are in front of a clock.
[45:32.480 --> 45:38.640] Unbeknownst to them. For a third of the people, the clock is going twice as fast as real time.
[45:39.760 --> 45:45.680] For a third of them, it's going half as fast as real time. For a third of them, it's going real time.
[45:45.680 --> 45:49.840] Well, people would think the damn wound is going to heal when the wound heals, right? No.
[45:50.560 --> 46:00.320] The wound healed based on clock time, perceived time. Yeah. All right. So going back to any diagnosis,
[46:01.200 --> 46:07.040] than anything that is happening on any level, psychologically, physically, spiritually,
[46:08.000 --> 46:17.520] globally, whatever, in some sense, happening on every level, and that which also then
[46:17.520 --> 46:27.120] means that, again, going back to everything is mutable, so that your ADHD, somebody else's
[46:28.080 --> 46:37.440] wound, somebody else's broken arm, somebody else's multiple sclerosis. These are big categories.
[46:37.440 --> 46:44.320] You have MS. The assumption is that's it. It's not going to get better, but it can get better.
[46:44.320 --> 46:51.200] Absolutely. Yeah. Diagnosis to say, okay, I'm not crazy. I have these symptoms, other people
[46:51.200 --> 46:58.400] have it too, but recognize, even without medical intervention, there are ways of moving things
[46:58.400 --> 47:04.480] forward. Now, so we did something that I call attention to symptom variability. That's just
[47:04.480 --> 47:09.840] a matter of saying mindfulness, right? Variability has changed, noticing change means noticing
[47:09.840 --> 47:16.240] differences. Okay. All the same thing. So when you're given a diagnosis, what most people
[47:16.240 --> 47:21.200] assume, let's say, you know, with MS, for example, anything, doesn't this? Some people think
[47:21.200 --> 47:27.600] they're stressed all the time. They're in pain all the time. They have ADHD, nobody has anything
[47:27.600 --> 47:34.880] all the time. Okay. But because we think we do, we don't pay any attention to the times we're okay.
[47:35.920 --> 47:42.880] The times, in other words, Dave, you have ADHD. There are times that you're able without medication
[47:42.880 --> 47:49.920] to pay as the same sort of attention as those of us who are best able to pay attention,
[47:49.920 --> 47:55.360] but you don't notice those, right? All you notice is up there, it's sneaking up again.
[47:55.360 --> 48:00.400] It's not like we're focused. Yeah. Absolutely. There's the word I saw as backwards. Oh, you know,
[48:00.400 --> 48:05.600] Moe is stressed, you know, because the times you're not any of these things goes unnoticed.
[48:05.600 --> 48:11.440] Yes. So we call people periodically and we say, okay, so how is the symptom right now?
[48:12.080 --> 48:18.480] It is a better or worse than the last time we called. And why? That's the important question.
[48:18.480 --> 48:26.480] Look, for why now am I better? Okay. So several things happen when you do that. The first thing
[48:26.480 --> 48:32.640] is that people don't feel quite as helpless. They don't feel I've got this diagnosis. It's,
[48:32.640 --> 48:39.360] you know, going to control my life for a lifetime, right? There are things I can do. Second,
[48:39.360 --> 48:46.640] is as soon as you notice, hey, right now, I'm not experiencing whatever that thing is.
[48:46.640 --> 48:51.280] So that feels good, because you thought it was steady state or just getting worse and worse.
[48:52.160 --> 48:57.920] Then when you add in, why now is it different from before? And that's a little harder,
[48:57.920 --> 49:05.280] but that engages us in a mindful search. And that mindfulness itself is good for our health.
[49:05.280 --> 49:10.160] That's when the neurons are firing and we're coming alive and growing and being stronger
[49:10.160 --> 49:16.160] and what have you. I believe you're more likely to find a cure if you're looking for one.
[49:16.160 --> 49:21.440] Okay. So we do this. We call people periodically and the cost of the day, then the next day,
[49:21.440 --> 49:30.080] sometimes over two weeks. And we find enormous, enormous improvement in an amelioration of most
[49:30.080 --> 49:36.080] of the symptoms for multiple sclerosis, Parkinson's, chronic pain, arthritis.
[49:37.200 --> 49:46.800] We did stroke. You know, what have you? And there's no, there's no negative consequence
[49:46.800 --> 49:53.280] from this. I mean, there's one thing that I'm curious about here, which is that because ADHD is a
[49:53.280 --> 50:01.200] neurotype and like a stroke is a condition or not. It's something that has happened,
[50:01.200 --> 50:07.520] where ADHD is like an actual, your brain, you know, your brain is like, there's a three-year delay
[50:07.520 --> 50:14.320] in the three frontal cortex. MS or Parkinson's, you're talking about that? I don't even know.
[50:15.120 --> 50:23.040] Well, you know, you weren't, you didn't get diagnosed for your ADHD until late in life, right?
[50:23.040 --> 50:28.720] Yeah, but the, everything I understand is that you're born with ADHD. So it's the brain,
[50:28.720 --> 50:37.200] it's the way you're prefrontal cortex, right? I think that, you know, clearly if somebody manifests
[50:37.200 --> 50:42.720] something, it's easy to say it was always there hiding. You know, I don't know how we would,
[50:42.800 --> 50:48.640] how we would demonstrate that. I don't think that when we take newborns, before they do anything,
[50:48.640 --> 50:57.920] we're able to say, oh, this kid is going to have ADHD or he's got this really bizarre case of ADHD
[50:57.920 --> 51:04.240] that's going to masquerade until he's in his 40s. I, you know, I think it's interesting because
[51:04.880 --> 51:11.200] even if you want to buy and I, I can't discount research that I'm not, you know, I haven't read
[51:11.680 --> 51:19.040] anything. Yeah, sure. Okay, another interruption. Forgive me for this. Langer seems to compare Parkinson's
[51:19.040 --> 51:26.240] and MS with ADHD in the discussion here. It's clear to me that, re-listening to the interview,
[51:26.240 --> 51:32.320] she doesn't know enough about ADHD specifically. She does mention here about not being knowledgeable
[51:32.320 --> 51:37.600] about research that she is unfamiliar with. So I wanted to point that out. She does say that. We
[51:37.600 --> 51:44.080] know that for most of us, we are born with ADHD. So I did want to mention this. She mentions that at
[51:44.080 --> 51:50.880] times we don't have the symptoms of ADHD, which I can agree with to an extent, but to question where
[51:50.880 --> 51:57.680] we still have ADHD at these moments, it seems naive to me. And honestly, I don't know the answer.
[51:57.680 --> 52:04.320] According to the DSM-5, ADHD is diagnosed when a person shows a persistent pattern of
[52:04.320 --> 52:10.720] inattention and or hyperactivity in pulsivity. That interferes with daily functioning. So,
[52:10.720 --> 52:18.160] to qualify children up to age 16, must display at least six symptoms while those 17 and older
[52:18.160 --> 52:24.800] need five or more, with symptoms lasting at least six months and beginning before the age of 12.
[52:24.800 --> 52:31.120] So these behaviors must occur in two or more settings, significantly impact academic,
[52:31.120 --> 52:37.600] social or occupational life and not be better explained by another condition. In adults, diagnosis
[52:37.600 --> 52:43.760] focuses on confirming that symptoms have been present since childhood, even if they were overlooked
[52:43.760 --> 52:50.160] at that time and that they continue to impair work and relationships or daily responsibilities.
[52:50.160 --> 52:56.320] And of course, this is how I was diagnosed with ADHD at 50. Okay, let's get back to this.
[52:56.320 --> 53:04.000] But regardless of the research, there's no research that can be done that can prove one can't.
[53:05.120 --> 53:08.960] Okay, all you can do in research is say, this is what it looks like now.
[53:09.520 --> 53:17.440] It wasn't made, you know, and what I'm suggesting is that for any diagnostic category,
[53:18.240 --> 53:25.280] there are times where we don't have the symptoms. What's happening when we don't have the symptoms?
[53:25.920 --> 53:31.200] Do you still have the disorder? And so I'm saying let's take advantage of the moments when we don't
[53:31.200 --> 53:37.760] have it and see if we can expand it. So, you know, to make it clear but ridiculous, let's say you
[53:37.760 --> 53:46.080] are watching, I call you, you know, three times a day at random times and we find that, yeah, at three
[53:46.080 --> 53:52.160] o'clock you're a little better and then you discover it's because you had an energy bar. Okay,
[53:52.240 --> 54:00.320] well so now we know, you know, tomorrow have an energy bar but have it at four o'clock and see,
[54:00.320 --> 54:07.360] you know, or two o'clock and so on. And energy bars just speaks to the insanity of language in some
[54:07.360 --> 54:15.280] sense. When I was your age, we used to call them candy bars. Well, the bars are bad, energy bars
[54:15.760 --> 54:23.760] are good. But the larger message in that is who's to say what we do isn't serving some
[54:24.880 --> 54:31.600] positive purpose. And we want to, now that doesn't mean that, you know, we'll go back, you're in
[54:31.600 --> 54:37.520] the classroom and you're fascinated by those ants on the ground. It doesn't mean you should be
[54:37.520 --> 54:43.120] rude to the teacher or that you shouldn't pay attention to the teacher. What it means is that
[54:43.120 --> 54:49.040] don't take yourself to task for finding something else interesting. Yeah, absolutely. And
[54:50.880 --> 54:56.320] just and I'm watching time, making sure we're mindful of that so for you. But
[54:57.760 --> 55:05.280] so as far as like strategies for folks to do like to be more mindful, you know, throughout the
[55:05.280 --> 55:11.440] day, let's say, what are what are some strategies to do that to think? Because I love the examples
[55:11.600 --> 55:16.560] and the, you know, and the study is obviously that you've done. I mean, you've dedicated your whole,
[55:16.560 --> 55:22.640] you know, career to this and it's so impressive. What are some strategies, you know, regardless
[55:22.640 --> 55:27.120] of your neurotype, what are some strategies that somebody that, you know, adults can do? Sure,
[55:27.120 --> 55:34.880] sure. I mean, it's the same for all of us. And I think that what we need to do is get off
[55:34.880 --> 55:40.800] automatic pilot, being mindless. You can't tell yourself not to be mindless because when
[55:40.800 --> 55:46.560] you're mindless, you're not aware that you're being mindless. Yes. And actively notice and
[55:46.560 --> 55:54.880] increase the number of new things. Notice all notice the familiar about new things. So they're
[55:54.880 --> 56:02.000] not scary. And notice new things about the things you need to think you know. Recognize that
[56:02.000 --> 56:10.000] everything that is was just a decision. That means it could be different. And so you then can
[56:10.000 --> 56:18.080] make it better meet your needs. You don't need a victim. Most of us suffer enormously from stress
[56:18.720 --> 56:24.880] and stress when we're given a diagnosis and feel the little diet or when people notice will be
[56:24.880 --> 56:31.200] ignore us and so on. But without these major diagnosis, everybody I know is stressed, you know,
[56:31.200 --> 56:38.160] so because I say these things all the time. So the first is a very simple one liner, which is
[56:38.160 --> 56:44.880] next time you're stressed, ask yourself, is it a tragedy or an inconvenience? And it's almost
[56:44.880 --> 56:53.680] always just an inconvenience. So then many in a breathe more easily. Events don't cause stress.
[56:54.400 --> 57:01.840] What causes stress are the views we take of events. It would open it up and become more mindful
[57:01.920 --> 57:08.720] and actually see the good thing here. You know, you become less stressed. Okay, so you stress,
[57:08.720 --> 57:16.080] stress requires a belief that something's going to happen. And when it happens, it's going to be
[57:16.080 --> 57:22.400] awful. Let's take both of those. First, we can predict the individual case, even that most people
[57:22.400 --> 57:28.720] think we can. So just give yourself, ask yourself, what are three reasons why this thing might not
[57:28.800 --> 57:32.560] happen? So first you start off, it's going to, oh my god, he's going to leave me. I'm going to
[57:32.560 --> 57:37.680] fail the test. I'm, you know, whatever. Three or five reasons why it's not going to happen,
[57:37.680 --> 57:44.000] you'll already feel, well, okay, maybe it won't happen. Now is the harder part. Let's assume it
[57:44.000 --> 57:52.160] does happen. How is that actually a good thing? Everything can be understood as an advantage.
[57:52.880 --> 57:59.120] Yeah. All right. And so as soon as you do that, then, you know, you're no longer stressed,
[57:59.120 --> 58:04.480] be whatever happens, it happens. You know, I was explaining this on a podcast. This was so fun.
[58:05.920 --> 58:12.240] And as an example, I said, let's assume that all of a sudden the internet goes out.
[58:13.040 --> 58:18.080] Some people, oh my god, I'm in the middle of a, you know, to me, okay, I'd go have lunch.
[58:18.640 --> 58:22.640] Yeah. Now the funny thing was then the internet went out.
[58:24.800 --> 58:30.080] Maybe I had some cash. No, I did go have lunch. You know, most things just don't matter.
[58:30.080 --> 58:34.640] As you get older, you know, when you're two years old, you scrape your knee, you crime,
[58:34.640 --> 58:40.240] letting murder, you're five or seven. And Johnny, you're seven years old. Johnny or Jamie doesn't
[58:40.240 --> 58:47.920] send you a valentine. And oh my god, yeah, 13, 15, you have pimples. Oh my god, my life is
[58:47.920 --> 58:53.840] already keeps going. And at some point, you get old enough to say, or it's all nonsense.
[58:54.560 --> 59:01.840] And it just doesn't matter. And there's another way of, it's not accepting something bad.
[59:01.840 --> 59:08.320] It's recognizing that whatever it is brings along the other side of it, which is an advantage.
[59:08.320 --> 59:15.920] You know, oh, I had this big tennis game. And I wake up and it's raining. Okay, that's good.
[59:16.880 --> 59:24.560] That means I won't lose, you know, but people will find the advantages that speak to them
[59:24.560 --> 59:33.280] rather than speak to me. So the larger point of all of this is that we are able to change.
[59:33.280 --> 59:37.440] We should be in some small way, at least changing all of the time.
[59:38.400 --> 59:44.160] Whenever we experience our thoughts determine our real experience of it,
[59:45.600 --> 59:51.600] that somebody comes along and they impose some labels. So for me, the label can be old.
[59:51.600 --> 59:59.360] For you, the label is ADHD. You can arrange your life so you enjoy the good parts to that.
[59:59.360 --> 01:00:07.040] You know, I'm old. That means if I, when I seem to have forgotten something, maybe I never knew it.
[01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:14.640] Okay, so they're always advantages, but not take those labels too seriously, because no matter
[01:00:14.640 --> 01:00:21.440] who we are or what we're doing, there are always ways we can change and grow, unless we're mindless.
[01:00:22.160 --> 01:00:29.120] Yes, yes, I love it. I love it. This has been so amazing. Where can folks find you and find your
[01:00:29.120 --> 01:00:35.120] new book and all the other stuff that you're doing? Well, they can easily just put my name and Google
[01:00:35.200 --> 01:00:44.800] whatever they use. My website is EllenLanger.com. I think it's EllenLanger.me, but either one will
[01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:49.680] get you to the right place and that will have my folks listed. It'll have examples of my art.
[01:00:50.480 --> 01:00:59.200] I started to list podcasts and things and I haven't kept up with that, but they'll be able to
[01:00:59.280 --> 01:01:06.160] find me. I think that they'll enjoy the new book. It was written first as a memoir, so there are
[01:01:06.160 --> 01:01:12.160] lots of sexy stories in it. And then it became more like the mindfulness book, full of easy to
[01:01:12.160 --> 01:01:19.840] understand, but to my mind, exciting research. So yeah, I'm excited. Yeah, I'm excited to get my
[01:01:19.840 --> 01:01:26.720] hands on it for sure and dig in. So I really, really do thank you for your time and your insights
[01:01:26.720 --> 01:01:32.480] here that's been such a pleasure. I've enjoyed it. Thanks for listening today. Head over to
[01:01:32.480 --> 01:01:39.840] yscrolls.com right now and you can enter to win a copy of Ellen's great book, The Mindful Body.
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[01:14:23.360 --> 01:14:26.400] great book, The Mindful Body.
