PODCAST. ADHD Shame, Careers, and Misdiagnosis with George Sachs, PsyD.
Sponsored by Inflow. Try the free ADHD traits quiz and meet Quinn, your new AI ADHD companion. Get support when you’re stuck, overwhelmed, or just need to feel understood. Click here.
Dr. George Sachs.
Powerful stories, fresh perspectives on misdiagnosis and shame, and practical ADHD strategies.
In the new episode of the ADHD Wise Squirrels podcast, I had the privilege of speaking with Dr. George Sachs, a clinical psychologist specializing in ADHD and autism. Dr. Sachs runs the Sachs Center, co-founded the Inflow* app (the largest digital therapeutic app for adults with ADHD), and has lived experience with ADHD himself. Our conversation was packed with wisdom, stories, and practical insights that will resonate with late-diagnosed adults and their families.
George’s ADHD Journey
George shared that, like many of us, his ADHD wasn’t recognized until adulthood. Despite struggling through college, he didn’t fully understand his challenges until graduate school. His path included teaching in South Korea, living in Japan, and working in children’s television and the dot-com boom before he found his calling in psychology.
George Sach’s story highlights something many listeners will relate to: ADHD isn’t just about distraction. It’s about motivation, fit, and the need for meaningful work that truly sparks interest.
Misdiagnosis, Labels, and Combined ADHD
One of the most powerful parts of our discussion centered on ADHD misdiagnosis. George has seen firsthand how ADHD often gets mislabeled as anxiety, depression, or even bipolar disorder, particularly in women, whose symptoms may not fit the “classic” hyperactive stereotype.
He also shared his perspective that almost all ADHD he sees in adults is combined presentation (both inattentive and hyperactive/impulsive traits). While the DSM makes distinctions, he emphasized that in real life, ADHD is rarely “just one type.”
ADHD, Shame, and Privilege
We tackled the hot topic of whether ADHD is a superpower. George prefers to call it a “silver lining,” acknowledging that while creativity, persistence, and passion can shine through, the daily struggles are real.
We also explored how privilege impacts the ADHD experience. For someone with resources, missed flights and forgotten passports are inconveniences. For someone struggling financially or raising kids alone, the same challenges can be devastating. ADHD is not a superpower in every context; it’s a lifelong condition that people manage differently depending on their circumstances.
At the heart of ADHD is shame. George noted that shame is one of the most debilitating aspects of ADHD, particularly for fellow Wise Squirrels. Encouragingly, younger generations and online communities are reshaping the narrative, embracing ADHD as a form of neurodiversity rather than a defect, which is a significant goal of this podcast.
Practical Tips and Tools
George didn’t just share theory, he offered practical tools you can use right away:
Change your body temperature: using a migraine cap or cold plunge can help regulate emotions and anxiety better than the standard “take three deep breaths” advice.
Focus on education before action: after diagnosis, take six months to learn about ADHD, join communities, and reduce shame before rushing to “fix” yourself.
Find your real superpowers: rather than seeing ADHD itself as the superpower, identify and celebrate the unique strengths you bring to the world.
Inflow and Quinn AI for ADHD
George and Dave also discussed Inflow*, the app he co-founded to help adults manage ADHD with curated tools and techniques that go beyond generic advice. Recently, Inflow launched Quinn, an AI coach trained specifically on ADHD strategies. Unlike general chatbots and AI agents, Quinn provides empathetic, practical guidance rooted in ADHD science.
Wise Squirrels listeners can try Inflow for free for a week and will be refunded if they decide to cancel later—terms and conditions at wisesquirrels.com/inflow.
Final Thoughts
This conversation reminded me how powerful self-knowledge is. When you understand your “operating system,” as I like to call it, you can move from shame to acceptance, and from frustration to growth. This is why it’s a key part of my coaching and ADHD presentation for companies and conferences, The Root Down.
ADHD is not just about deficits. It’s about difference. And, as George reminded us, everyone, whether they have ADHD or not, has their own unique challenges and strengths. The key is embracing yours, connecting with others, and finding the strategies that help you thrive.
👉 Listen to the full episode with Dr. George Sachs on the ADHD Wise Squirrels podcast and join the conversation about ADHD, resilience, and redefining what success looks like. Enjoy the show? Please take a moment to leave us a rating and review. Thank you.
* Inflow is a paid sponsor of Wise Squirrels, but the interview is not part of our sponsorship agreement. We included this to share George’s story and wisdom with our community.
-
[00:00.000 --> 00:06.160] My name is George Sachs. I'm a clinical psychologist specializing in ADHD and autism.
[00:06.800 --> 00:12.960] And I have a national private practice called the Sach Center focused on ADHD and autism.
[00:13.600 --> 00:19.680] And I'm also the co-founder of INFLOW, which is the first and largest digital therapeutic app
[00:19.680 --> 00:25.680] for adults with ADHD. Yes, and our listeners will be familiar at this point, I would hope,
[00:25.680 --> 00:32.480] and I hope they've signed up for the awesome ADHD traits quiz that you've created. I think it's
[00:32.480 --> 00:38.240] fantastic. So those familiar will be familiar for disclosure that INFLOW has been a proud sponsor
[00:38.240 --> 00:43.840] and of Y Squirrels for several months now, and we thank you for that, of course. We back up a
[00:43.840 --> 00:50.400] little bit, and I know, you know, we've talked before about your own ADHD. When were you diagnosed?
[00:50.400 --> 00:59.520] Well, I was born with ADHD, like all of us, but it wasn't until graduate school that I really
[00:59.520 --> 01:06.480] like realized I had ADHD. It was when I went to graduate school, and by the way, I went to graduate
[01:06.480 --> 01:15.760] school at 30, 31, and it wasn't because that wasn't the plan. It's just that I barely scraped through
[01:15.840 --> 01:22.400] university, college, just crossed the finish line, barely, because even though I majored in psychology,
[01:22.400 --> 01:27.680] and that was one of my interests, it was just so boring. And also, you know, the executive
[01:27.680 --> 01:34.000] functioning required in college is significant compared to high school, where I tell all the
[01:34.000 --> 01:38.800] parents, like, it's going to be a big transition because you've been doing a lot of the scaffolding.
[01:39.760 --> 01:45.360] Well, my parents back in the day, I'm Gen X, didn't do any scaffolding, as you know, but
[01:45.760 --> 01:51.120] the school did, and you know, providing structure, and then I got to college, and I was like,
[01:51.120 --> 01:57.040] I don't have to go to class. I don't really understand that concept, but barely made it out,
[01:57.040 --> 02:05.200] and then took 10 years to try to, like, well, I spent three years in Asia, and I recommend this to
[02:05.200 --> 02:10.560] everybody. I found that one of the greatest things I've ever done is found a program called Princeton
[02:10.560 --> 02:15.360] in Asia. You don't have to go to Princeton to go there, but it's based at Princeton.
[02:16.240 --> 02:22.720] Kind of a nod for profit, and they find you jobs, recent college graduates, jobs to teach English
[02:22.720 --> 02:28.720] in Asia, and you don't need any experience to teach in, you don't need any knowledge of teaching
[02:28.720 --> 02:34.480] English. That's amazing. That's amazing. And for people like me who are like, what am I going to do
[02:34.480 --> 02:39.520] with my life? I don't know. All my friends were rushing to become lawyers and doctors,
[02:40.240 --> 02:47.360] or whatever, and I just was like, I'm exhausted. I'm so burned out from this experience. So
[02:48.320 --> 02:53.920] of just getting through that I decided to do something like this. Plus, I grew up with this
[02:53.920 --> 03:00.640] comic book called Tintin. Yeah. And read all the Tintin books, and just fell in love with travel,
[03:00.640 --> 03:07.280] and he would have all these adventures, Tintin into bed, Tintin in the Red Sea. So I just had this
[03:08.000 --> 03:13.520] fantasy of living in different countries. And through that program, I was able to go to South
[03:13.520 --> 03:18.480] Korea, and I had one of the best years of my life. That's incredible. Yeah, that's amazing.
[03:18.480 --> 03:24.560] I wasn't done traveling, why I was teaching, and I had an apartment there, and I was with some
[03:24.560 --> 03:30.720] other Americans. But then I decided to move to Japan for two years to study Japanese and basically
[03:30.720 --> 03:36.720] prolong the adventure, because I wasn't readily really done yet after a year. And so I lived in Japan
[03:37.280 --> 03:43.120] in a southern island there, and lived in a little Japanese village, which was amazing as well,
[03:43.120 --> 03:48.560] had it live with a family, and had a, you know, just an opportunity to travel all over Asia.
[03:49.200 --> 03:58.240] And then finally came back, and now I was like 23, but in 80 HD years, that's more like 18, you know.
[03:58.960 --> 04:07.040] So there's a 30% difference, I believe, in chronological age between 80 HD adults, or kids,
[04:07.040 --> 04:14.240] and neurotypical kids, or as I call them the mythical kids, because nobody's really actually
[04:15.120 --> 04:21.360] neurotypical, you know. Yeah. Anybody could, you know, everybody's got something. It's just not
[04:21.360 --> 04:29.520] 80 HD, but they got something, anxiety, or depression, or OCD. So, um, and then I came back, and I
[04:29.520 --> 04:34.800] really wanted, I was wrecked. I didn't know I had 80 HD, but I recognized I needed to do some
[04:34.800 --> 04:41.840] career that was fun, interesting. So I actually pursued a career in children's television.
[04:43.440 --> 04:48.960] I was always fascinated by that, and I worked with a guy who, this was in New York City in the 90s,
[04:48.960 --> 04:57.280] very exciting time. My office is down in Soho, which is not the Soho it is now. Right. And anyway,
[04:58.000 --> 05:06.080] I did that for a few years, creating TV shows, and then the internet popped up, and it's a similar
[05:06.080 --> 05:11.200] feeling to what, to AI now, like this really cool new thing, but it was the internet. What's this?
[05:11.200 --> 05:18.160] Get an email address. And if you have, if your email is your name, your first name, period last name,
[05:18.240 --> 05:25.520] at Gmail, you know you're a Gen X. Yes. Yeah. Because your kids probably have like one, two, four,
[05:25.520 --> 05:30.400] or five, not right? Yeah. Well, they both, luckily, they both have their names.com, and they both,
[05:30.400 --> 05:36.080] and my son who's in his first year of university now, I've redirected that domain to his LinkedIn
[05:36.080 --> 05:41.440] profile. So now he's like kind of a badass, because you can say my name.com, and it goes to his
[05:41.440 --> 05:47.360] LinkedIn profile. But yes, you're absolutely right. I deeply regret not having davedeliny.com. I've
[05:47.360 --> 05:56.000] got all the other ones, but I had a friend who was one of the founders early guys at AOL, and his
[05:56.000 --> 06:07.360] was Jim at AOL.com. But anyway, I wrote the dot com boom in working at a company called Barnes
[06:07.360 --> 06:15.040] and Noble.com. And we all thought we would be millionaires because that Amazon everybody was,
[06:15.040 --> 06:21.200] you know, millionaires from the public Amazon going public, and we all thought that, but it was not
[06:21.200 --> 06:29.680] Amazon. And then I just kind of stayed there. Then we had the dot com bust in 9 11, and there was all
[06:29.680 --> 06:36.800] sorts of things in my life that just basically said, you need a change. And I was tired of one of
[06:36.800 --> 06:43.200] the things I was tired of, which is this constant like looking for a job and like interviewing and
[06:43.200 --> 06:51.600] being dependent on other people to like pay me. And it just was exhausting for me. So I said, I
[06:51.600 --> 06:57.520] need a career where it's going to be sustained for many years, and where you're respected with
[06:57.520 --> 07:04.960] gray hair, because many jobs, like especially in tech, just like if you're over a certain age, you
[07:04.960 --> 07:12.160] were seen as back then too, you were seen as like not cool. So yeah, I had reconnected with my roots
[07:12.160 --> 07:18.960] as a psychology, an interest in psychology and got into a side D program. And the side D is,
[07:18.960 --> 07:24.320] you know, there are two types of degrees for a psychologist, side D and a PhD. They're both
[07:24.320 --> 07:31.360] basically the same. But the side D program didn't require the GRE, and the GRE was going to be a
[07:31.360 --> 07:37.360] major hurdle for me with ADHD to study for that and prepare. And I just wanted to start. So I
[07:38.000 --> 07:44.960] talked my way in and started graduate school, which was a lot of structure. And I always say,
[07:44.960 --> 07:50.400] yet just yesterday, I had a client say, is graduate school good for me? And I said absolutely,
[07:50.400 --> 07:56.640] if it's actually what you are interested in, because if you have ADHD and you're studying something,
[07:56.640 --> 08:01.200] your parents think you should study or you want for the money, you know, and you're going to law
[08:01.280 --> 08:07.920] school. It's a disaster. You have to be because ADHD is not a problem of attention and focus.
[08:08.640 --> 08:15.440] It's a problem of motivation. Why did it get that reputation and name because it was first
[08:15.440 --> 08:20.800] diagnosed in children who had to focus and pay attention in school? Well, they didn't ask the
[08:20.800 --> 08:25.520] kids if they were actually interested in those subjects. They just said, you're not paying attention.
[08:25.520 --> 08:30.400] Well, yeah, because it's super boring. That's another reason I say parent to kids approaching
[08:30.400 --> 08:35.920] college, you got to study something you're excited about. And if that means you're going to study
[08:35.920 --> 08:43.680] photography and never become a photographer, but just get your BA, or you're going to study acting,
[08:43.680 --> 08:48.080] but you don't really actually want to be an ad, but you're just going to get a BA. Do that,
[08:48.080 --> 08:55.600] because doing the core curriculum, two years of mandated classes in college, and then it's really
[08:55.680 --> 09:02.080] painful. Of course, you don't even have to go to college. But anyway, so then I got myself
[09:02.080 --> 09:07.280] back into graduate school and there's a lot of structure and what I call hoops of fire, you just
[09:07.280 --> 09:15.680] have to jump through. You don't can't think what just do it. And then I began working with,
[09:16.720 --> 09:21.920] I picked, I was always interested in working with kids. So my major in grad school was child
[09:21.920 --> 09:28.960] psychology. And if you work with a lot of kids, you're going to know ADHD. So most of the clients
[09:28.960 --> 09:34.800] and kids I was working with in graduate school had ADHD or trauma. But basically I remember doing
[09:34.800 --> 09:41.840] an evaluation of a kid and giving the parents the questionnaire and reading it myself. And that
[09:41.840 --> 09:49.920] was when it struck me that I was actually ADHD. Wow. And because I was reading this and thinking,
[09:49.920 --> 09:58.240] oh my god, that was my problem. But I was not a hyperactive kid in a sense of like making
[09:58.240 --> 10:02.880] problems for the teacher. So therefore, the teacher would have called my parent and then there,
[10:02.880 --> 10:08.400] they would have gotten me tested. I was inattentive presentation, right?
[10:08.400 --> 10:15.440] Well, let me let me talk about that for a second, inattentive fight. But I was not the like,
[10:15.440 --> 10:23.680] I was, because many girls are quiet, but they have ADHD. Yeah. And there are a lot of girls. When I
[10:23.680 --> 10:30.640] was working in my prior practice in New York, I met a lot of little girls who were super hyperactive.
[10:30.640 --> 10:38.640] But they manifested it as hyperverbal talking a lot. But this idea that there's inattentive type,
[10:39.360 --> 10:48.480] I have to say, you know, in all my 15, what is it? Maybe more, 20 years working with ADHD, very few
[10:48.480 --> 10:57.200] inattentive types. Why? Because once we unpack the fact that hyperactivity, it's actually ADHD,
[10:57.200 --> 11:07.200] ADHD, attention deficit, hyperactivity, slash, impulsivity disorder. And so, you know, well,
[11:07.200 --> 11:15.280] a lot of adults say, I am ADD. I don't have a H. And I say, well, let's investigate that,
[11:15.280 --> 11:21.040] you know, because when you start investigating, even the so-called inattentive types, like me,
[11:21.120 --> 11:27.600] there is a lot of impulsivity, impulsive shopping, impulsive eating, impulsive stock buying,
[11:27.600 --> 11:36.960] impulsive gambling, impulsive speaking, interrupting. So, I think inattentive type is actually much more
[11:36.960 --> 11:45.520] rare than people think. It is more prominent with ADHD, though. I'm seeing that much more with
[11:45.520 --> 11:52.080] clients who have autism. But anyway, back to this story, I, that's when I self-diagnosed with ADHD,
[11:52.080 --> 11:59.040] and then still was interested in working with people with ADHD. I worked in, I did my training in
[11:59.040 --> 12:05.520] in Chicago, and then in Los Angeles, working in South Central Los Angeles, which was a wonderful
[12:05.520 --> 12:13.440] experience, because we would go into the homes and do the, the therapy there, because the families
[12:13.440 --> 12:20.480] were foster families who had taken in a traumatized, neglected child, and they were, they didn't have
[12:20.480 --> 12:26.240] the, the means to like drive back and forth between their house and the clinic, so we would drive
[12:26.240 --> 12:31.280] to them. Was this the clinic you were working with at the time, or? Yeah, this was my train, what we
[12:31.280 --> 12:39.680] call the internship and postdoc after, you know, at the final, like the final piece of your graduate
[12:39.680 --> 12:46.080] school training. Okay, okay. That's great. So then I saw, I, what I did see there is a lot of
[12:46.080 --> 12:55.920] overdiagnosis of, of not only ADHD, but the diagnosis to sure, and that is a thing, diagnoses do
[12:56.560 --> 13:04.480] are fashionable, and at that time the fashion was bipolar disorder and children, and all these kids
[13:04.480 --> 13:11.280] were traumatized, you know, but it looked like, to these psychiatrists like bipolar, and they were
[13:11.280 --> 13:17.200] pumping them full of bipolar meds, which are very different from ADHD meds, and, but I learned a lot
[13:17.200 --> 13:24.400] about ADHD and the misdiagnosis, and then, then I moved to New York City and worked for Dr. Hallowell,
[13:24.960 --> 13:33.760] the Hallowell Center, and what I learned from him is this whole idea of strength-based
[13:33.760 --> 13:39.920] approach, you know, he has something called vast now, which is a variable attention. Basically,
[13:39.920 --> 13:48.160] he sees ADHD as a strength, and, and, and as a superpower, and that was helpful to me, because I,
[13:48.160 --> 13:55.200] at that time, did not, but now I have a more, you know, balanced idea that there are some silver
[13:55.200 --> 14:02.720] linings, but it's a problem. It's not an amazing superpower, but because we have to adapt, you know,
[14:02.720 --> 14:09.360] it's like you're blind, you're hearing me improve. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I, I think so,
[14:09.360 --> 14:15.600] I mean, work for Daredevil, I don't know if it... Yeah, that, that makes sense. I interviewed on a
[14:15.600 --> 14:22.880] previous podcast, Richard Turner, who's like one of the most, one of the, the most famous close-up
[14:22.880 --> 14:28.720] negation he specializes in, he calls himself a card mechanic, but he's, the, the, the kicker to it
[14:28.720 --> 14:34.000] is he's a hundred percent blind, and went blind as a kid, and it was a fascinating conversation,
[14:34.000 --> 14:38.880] but you're right. Yeah, you, your other senses do, you know, I don't know if it's a scientific
[14:38.880 --> 14:43.520] thing, but certainly can't, can't, you know, anecdotally from his perspective, certainly,
[14:44.080 --> 14:48.800] some of the stuff, because he's also a black belt and karate, blind. Yeah, and so we develop
[14:49.440 --> 14:53.840] other, other abilities, and I definitely think that happens with ADHD, you know, you know,
[14:53.840 --> 14:59.200] what you're not good at, and then you focus on the things you're good at. Yeah, you kind of
[14:59.200 --> 15:04.560] compensate, I guess, even whether you knowingly, whether you, because I think, I think that's,
[15:04.560 --> 15:10.880] that's true from my own perspective as well. Like, you know, one thing I'm curious about, and I know
[15:10.880 --> 15:16.000] you've covered a lot there, just explaining that. I mean, I did have to plug that both my kids were
[15:16.000 --> 15:21.760] in South Korea and Japan just a week ago. They went on a school trip. Well, wow, that's an awesome
[15:21.760 --> 15:28.160] school. Yeah, yeah, it was, it was, it was great. My wife and I met back back in in Ireland.
[15:28.160 --> 15:32.080] I'm from Canada from Toronto and she's from Tennessee, which is why we live in Nashville now. But
[15:32.880 --> 15:39.760] so one of our family mottoes is, you know, experiences over things, and the idea that travel
[15:39.760 --> 15:46.480] is incredibly important. You know, there's a saying Augustine line that I love, which is the world
[15:46.480 --> 15:51.920] is a book and those who have not traveled only turn one page or something or only read one page,
[15:51.920 --> 15:56.880] something like that. So the fact that you embrace travel and stuff, my wife and I ran out of money,
[15:56.880 --> 16:03.120] backpacking back in the day in Prague of all places and had to teach English, you know, just through
[16:04.000 --> 16:09.840] a company, but we had to, you know, go around Prague teaching English to mainly business professionals,
[16:09.840 --> 16:14.960] just in order to save up enough money to get back to Ireland and get our jobs back there. And so,
[16:14.960 --> 16:18.640] yeah, I love, I love some of what you're, what you're saying there earlier.
[16:20.000 --> 16:25.360] Yeah, I mean, it's interesting what I've learned with, with my own diagnosis and, you know,
[16:25.360 --> 16:31.360] doing this podcast and my, my therapy and, and all that good stuff about, you know, my understanding
[16:31.360 --> 16:37.840] at least of the three sort of presentations of, of ADHD and, you know, which is my understanding,
[16:37.840 --> 16:43.520] at least is obviously not a doctor nor do I ever claim to be on the internet or elsewhere for
[16:43.520 --> 16:48.560] that matter, but my understanding is that there's one type of ADHD, but three presentations and,
[16:48.560 --> 16:55.360] you know, as we spoke about ADHD, which is an attentive, high, which I, I usually use the analogy
[16:55.360 --> 17:01.920] of Lisa Simpson. And then we've got Bart Simpson, who's ADHD, high or H.I., hyperactive and pulsating.
[17:03.120 --> 17:08.400] And then I use Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes as the example for ADHD, which is the combined
[17:08.400 --> 17:15.760] presentation. But I do, I'm curious actually, as, this is something that I've, I've, I don't know
[17:15.760 --> 17:21.920] for sure. And maybe you do, I don't know. But as we, obviously, let's say you're hyperactive,
[17:21.920 --> 17:27.360] right, impulsive. And, and that's, that was me as a kid. I was the Bart Simpson, right. And so,
[17:27.360 --> 17:33.120] often I understand that a lot of girls were missed from a combination of certain misogyny and sexism,
[17:33.520 --> 17:38.560] but, but in addition to that, just the fact that they were quiet or, or not just girls, but anybody,
[17:38.560 --> 17:44.240] like yourself, who was more predominantly inattentive, you weren't just rupting the class.
[17:44.240 --> 17:50.800] Therefore, it wasn't really a problem to solve for the teacher, where hyperactive is, you know,
[17:50.800 --> 17:55.600] that the one that most often, you know, like myself that would get in a trouble. My question,
[17:55.600 --> 18:02.800] though, is combined type, is this, or combined presentation, I should say, is this something that
[18:02.800 --> 18:11.600] people are diagnosed with, or is it something, or, and, or, as we mature into adults, we, we,
[18:11.600 --> 18:16.800] let's say we're hyperactive, impulsive, we channel, you know, I'm not running around, disrupting
[18:16.800 --> 18:25.520] things anymore. However, my brain is often doing that, as is my mouth, clearly. Do we become more
[18:25.520 --> 18:33.360] combined as we age and mature? Well, I, like I said, I, I, I am not a religious person.
[18:34.480 --> 18:39.760] Why is that? Because the Bible, whatever your religion, it's like, that's, that's it.
[18:39.760 --> 18:45.520] It's set in stone. There's no, don't change it. It's been the same way for 2,000 years,
[18:45.520 --> 18:51.440] and that always bothered me because, you know, that we grow and change. And I think the DSM,
[18:52.160 --> 18:58.480] and the, it's not a Bible. It's, you know, it's, it's, it's written, it was written by like five or
[18:58.480 --> 19:05.920] six psychiatrists in a room. That's it. It was, that's it. So it's not a Bible, although it's
[19:05.920 --> 19:12.560] referred to as a Bible. So in my practice, I rarely, if ever, diagnosed, inattentive type, and I
[19:12.560 --> 19:24.000] have never, ever, not once, never diagnosed, um, hyperactive type alone, never, it's never,
[19:24.000 --> 19:32.720] ever, ever, ever happen. So my point is, most people, if not 99%, except for the people who are
[19:32.720 --> 19:40.320] ADHD, um, are, I think combined type. So I just call it ADHD because I can find the high,
[19:40.320 --> 19:47.520] the impulsivity in your, in you. Right. And I suppose it's apples and oranges at the end of the day.
[19:47.520 --> 19:52.640] I mean, you know, what, as far as labels go, you don't, at least my understanding is you wouldn't,
[19:53.360 --> 19:57.760] you wouldn't really, and we're talking about adults here, right? Not younger and so much because
[19:57.760 --> 20:03.920] the podcast is for late diagnosed adults, but regardless of what, uh, presentation, ADHD, you,
[20:03.920 --> 20:09.440] you are or have or what have you, at the end of the day, I think you're sort of treating it
[20:09.440 --> 20:14.640] in a similar way through, you know, through therapy, through medications, stimulants, usually,
[20:15.280 --> 20:20.960] and, and not to mention the comorbidities that often come along with the package, which,
[20:21.680 --> 20:25.840] my, again, correct me where I'm wrong, but my understanding, at least in my case too, is that,
[20:25.840 --> 20:30.640] you know, anxiety and depression are the fun ones that tend to come along with it,
[20:30.640 --> 20:36.960] but for others, it could be, uh, OCD, it could be bipolar, as you mentioned, as well, to,
[20:36.960 --> 20:43.120] to a lesser degree, is that well, well, right? Or let me say this, I, I think, as you said,
[20:43.120 --> 20:51.360] anxiety and depression, uh, are basically symptoms of ADHD or being neurodivergent and autistic.
[20:52.000 --> 20:57.200] So if you, if you come to me and you're not anxious, and you're not like, or have
[20:57.200 --> 21:02.880] bouts of depression, I'm going to wonder if you're actually ADHD. Yeah. Because it's so common,
[21:02.880 --> 21:11.040] because we have a lot of social difficulties and, uh, like managing life, and if you,
[21:11.040 --> 21:14.640] if you have a hard time managing life, it's going to create more anxiety and depression.
[21:15.200 --> 21:22.080] There are co-occurring, obviously autism is, is very common. OCD is common,
[21:22.960 --> 21:32.480] but if you have a bipolar diagnosis and ADHD, I'm really, or also BPD, borderline personality
[21:32.480 --> 21:39.760] disorder, if you come to me with a BPD or bipolar, I'm really skeptical what's actually going on
[21:40.400 --> 21:48.240] here. And what I mean by that is like, I think a lot of doctors misdiagnose ADHD, particularly
[21:48.240 --> 21:58.160] ADHD as, uh, bipolar and, or borderline personality disorder. So isn't it often though that it's
[21:58.160 --> 22:05.440] missed because, and this is my understanding from, from Russ Barkley is that, and what happens is
[22:05.440 --> 22:10.960] that a person is, is, is diagnosed with, let's say, depression, and they're treated for depression.
[22:10.960 --> 22:17.680] But for whatever reason, the doctor who diagnosed them with, let's say, depression didn't do testing
[22:17.680 --> 22:24.400] or, or have enough knowledge, let's say, about ADHD to realize that, that is sort of at the root.
[22:24.400 --> 22:30.320] And so when the ADHD gets missed in the mix, then being treated for the depression through
[22:30.400 --> 22:36.960] meds and therapy and what have you, while that can help you, the core problem at hand or the
[22:36.960 --> 22:43.440] root of the problem is that, or is that ADHD that's still untreated and even unknown at that
[22:43.440 --> 22:48.240] point is that does that sound sort of? Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's very common with women
[22:48.240 --> 22:57.920] because of stereotypes, you know, the old hysterical, his strionic female stereotypes and tropes
[22:58.000 --> 23:03.680] that unfortunately are changing. But I think a lot of women were misdiagnosed with anxiety or
[23:03.680 --> 23:11.040] depression and treated with SSRIs, which absolutely you're right, doesn't treat the underlying ADHD.
[23:11.040 --> 23:16.720] And if the ADHD was treated, maybe they wouldn't be so anxious and depressed, you know, if they
[23:16.720 --> 23:25.440] were diagnosed with ADHD and joined Adda and listen to your podcasts and felt more
[23:25.440 --> 23:32.080] at ease with their difference, maybe they wouldn't feel so anxious and depressed.
[23:32.080 --> 23:38.480] But are we comparing depression and anxiety because, and again, always as I say, I'm not a doctor,
[23:38.480 --> 23:43.680] so that's why I have smart people like you on the show, is like, I feel like, and I could be
[23:43.680 --> 23:51.040] wrong here, but I feel like people, people can have anxiety that is not clinical. They could be anxious
[23:51.040 --> 23:56.160] about businesses hurting and whatever, like whatever things are going on, they could have anxious
[23:56.160 --> 24:02.720] feeling so much that they are, they have anxiety, let's say. But isn't there a difference between
[24:02.720 --> 24:10.080] like that kind of anxiety and an actual clinical diagnosis of anxiety as an ongoing condition?
[24:10.080 --> 24:12.800] Well, yeah, I mean, and depression or what?
[24:12.800 --> 24:18.240] Herity, severity and significance is the key for a diagnosis, how strong is it and how much does
[24:18.240 --> 24:23.200] it impact your life in a negative way? Yes, but I mean, if you've been in a room with somebody
[24:23.200 --> 24:33.040] who's anxious, it's just so palpable and obvious that anxiety is the problem. But, you know,
[24:33.040 --> 24:38.080] I think what happened is that particularly women would go to a doctor, you know, they didn't know
[24:38.080 --> 24:44.880] they had ADHD and they would feel like, what's, you know, I can't, I can't calm down. My mind is
[24:44.880 --> 24:51.200] always racing, you know, which is a hyperactive, restless mind. Yes. And, you know, I always
[24:51.200 --> 24:57.200] feel like I'm not living up to expectations, I'm depressed all the time. Well, let's kill two birds
[24:57.200 --> 25:06.560] with one stone with an SSRI here and Zola. But those are just descriptions of life with ADHD.
[25:08.000 --> 25:13.440] You know, so that doesn't mean you couldn't have both. You can certainly have both
[25:14.080 --> 25:19.680] clinical levels and you can be treated for both. Like with, you know, I'm not a psychiatrist,
[25:19.680 --> 25:24.640] so you could probably take both. Some people are on both stimulants and SSRI.
[25:24.640 --> 25:32.080] I am, yeah, I'm on that. Yeah, but my point is like, let's open up the box and see fully and see
[25:32.080 --> 25:39.120] what's in there. And like I said, I think anxiety and depression are just sub-symptoms of ADHD,
[25:40.080 --> 25:48.480] especially I find anxiety, a lot of the anxieties around expectations of success and expectations
[25:48.480 --> 25:55.280] that you feel you're not keeping up with. You know, and a lot of women are on Instagram and,
[25:55.280 --> 26:03.120] you know, the Instagram mom, the perfect mother, and also women have the extra burden of feeling
[26:03.200 --> 26:09.520] like they have to take care of others. Yeah. Way that men don't. And therefore, you know,
[26:09.520 --> 26:15.760] that requires executive functioning to run the house or in a career and take care of the kids.
[26:15.760 --> 26:21.440] And so, you know, you're going to crack with that. Yeah. And then you go to your doctor,
[26:21.440 --> 26:27.680] I'm overwhelmed. I can't, you know, I'm just so anxious. I can't, my mind is racing. Well,
[26:27.760 --> 26:34.960] you have anxiety. Yeah, of course. Yeah, that goes without saying. Yeah. Well, and nowadays too,
[26:34.960 --> 26:39.840] I mean, what's great also is that, you know, and that's what I find with the listeners of my
[26:39.840 --> 26:46.080] podcast a lot as well is that so many more women are now being diagnosed. And part of that is
[26:46.080 --> 26:50.400] also because, you know, generalizing, of course, but like as a mom, maybe you're taking care of
[26:50.400 --> 26:56.960] the child more and your child is suffering from undiagnosed ADHD. So the child gets diagnosed.
[26:56.960 --> 27:01.840] And then what we know now, at least my understanding again, is that it's roughly, I think it's
[27:01.840 --> 27:07.680] my gender, but it's something like 70 to 75 to 80% paratable, which means that one or both of your
[27:07.680 --> 27:13.680] parents, if you have ADHD, it means that one or both of your parents probably does too. And from
[27:13.680 --> 27:18.800] our generation generation X, I think this, this is my theory about the trauma piece of it,
[27:18.800 --> 27:24.480] is that for our generation, our parents, and I definitely know both, well, undiagnosed, but I
[27:24.560 --> 27:32.800] definitely know both of my parents had ADHD. It accounts for the trauma that we, and I use the
[27:32.800 --> 27:41.120] royal we, but we experienced growing up with parents or a parent who was ADHD and didn't know it,
[27:41.120 --> 27:48.160] and may have struggled with lashing out or violence or addictions or things like that. That ended
[27:48.480 --> 27:56.800] up affecting childhood. And I had some of that. So any, anything that I'm saying there that's
[27:56.800 --> 28:00.800] resonating with your life, necessarily, but with, you know, in general, what you're seeing.
[28:03.840 --> 28:09.760] Yeah, so this is a difference I see where there's a guy named Gabor Matang, I think his name is.
[28:09.760 --> 28:17.680] Yeah, and he's a bad news. So he, you know, I've listened to him and he talks about how ADHD is
[28:17.680 --> 28:26.000] misdiagnosed trauma from childhood. Well, I do think people with ADHD experience a lot more
[28:26.000 --> 28:32.320] rejection. Yeah. That's been shown in science. We get like 20,000 more messages of rejection.
[28:32.320 --> 28:38.560] And those are a little tiny paper cuts every day. I'm not going to say, but they, they suck.
[28:38.560 --> 28:46.800] Yes. And so we do grow up with a lot of self-doubt and self-esteem issues. And all of that is
[28:46.800 --> 28:53.440] similar to people who experienced trauma or grew up in abusive homes. Now some of the parents,
[28:53.440 --> 28:58.880] like you said, it's very heritable. It's very genetic. So your parent has ADHD and passed it down
[28:58.880 --> 29:05.360] to you. That's how you got it. But that also means that they may have had a difficult time being a
[29:05.360 --> 29:11.760] really sensitive parent because they were bored. I mean, playing with a baby, you know, or a little
[29:11.840 --> 29:16.960] kid can get boring. So, you know, like I don't want to do that. I don't want to spend time because it's
[29:16.960 --> 29:24.080] or it's stressful. And so you may not have gotten sensitive parenting. Does that mean you're traumatized?
[29:24.080 --> 29:30.720] No. There's something to good enough parent, you know, but there are also parents who because of
[29:30.720 --> 29:37.040] their ADHD became alcoholics or drug addicts and then became abusive. You know, like 25% of the
[29:37.040 --> 29:46.560] prison population, they say is ADHD. So I do not think ADHD is misdiagnosed trauma.
[29:47.200 --> 29:54.880] No, no. And that's a big problem with Gabor Montes' take on it who is not an ADHD expert who,
[29:55.520 --> 30:00.800] I think, you know, my understanding with him is that, you know, certainly there's validity to some
[30:00.800 --> 30:06.320] of his stuff, some of the work that he's done and what have you, I guess, I don't really know him
[30:06.320 --> 30:14.400] very well, but I do know about his take on ADHD and it's completely misinformation or
[30:14.400 --> 30:19.440] worse disinformation because he should know better than... Yeah, I mean, he did experience himself
[30:19.440 --> 30:26.160] a lot of trauma. He did. Yes, absolutely. World War II, which is, and I did see a lot of foster
[30:26.160 --> 30:34.480] kids diagnosed with ADHD. So there are a lot of, there are times when little when kids are,
[30:34.480 --> 30:40.640] particularly little kids are misdiagnosed if they're off the walls, but, you know, they're traumatized.
[30:40.640 --> 30:45.520] And they, but they obviously came from a traumatized home, which is why they're in foster care.
[30:45.520 --> 30:51.440] Yeah. So let's diagnose them with complex PTSD just as a matter of course, because they've been
[30:51.440 --> 30:58.720] removed from a parent. Yeah. But, you know, that parent probably also has ADHD. So... Right,
[30:58.720 --> 31:05.200] which must be harder too, because if you adopted a child who is experiencing ADHD symptoms and
[31:05.200 --> 31:10.320] maybe you don't know yet or what have you, but they're perhaps causing some, some difficulties
[31:10.320 --> 31:17.120] or you're frustrated and your, uh, air quotes neuro-typical, which I like to your take on that, um,
[31:17.120 --> 31:23.040] parent and because they're an adopted child, it must be extra frustrating because there's no
[31:23.040 --> 31:29.920] way for you to really know until diagnosis and treatment that what ADHD is like because you
[31:29.920 --> 31:34.560] don't have it. Like I said, like with, with the women who are now finding out they have ADHD because
[31:34.560 --> 31:38.720] their kids are getting diagnosed and they see it in themselves, which is pretty common, I think,
[31:38.720 --> 31:44.320] nowadays. That doesn't happen obviously because it's an adopted parent, so they may not have ADHD.
[31:45.200 --> 31:50.720] Yeah, I mean, uh, they, that requires like a master's degree in parenting to parent a child with,
[31:50.720 --> 31:56.880] particularly a doctor. I worked with adopted kids from Russia who had fetal alcohol syndrome,
[31:56.880 --> 32:05.120] which is like, uh, ADA, ADHD like times 10. I can't help it. That was really difficult, but, um,
[32:06.160 --> 32:10.400] You were talking about neuro-typical actually, um, what, what did you call it again, neuro?
[32:10.400 --> 32:18.080] The mythicals. Neuromethical? No, just mythical. There's no, nobody, that's one of the gifts of
[32:18.080 --> 32:23.520] becoming a therapist and working with people, many of them who didn't have ADHD, but they had a
[32:23.520 --> 32:30.880] whole host of other issues. So there's nobody who's immune from life's challenges and mental health
[32:30.880 --> 32:35.120] problems. I've had a conversation on, on the podcast with a couple of people and I've,
[32:35.120 --> 32:40.480] I've mentioned it to, to friends and others too, where yeah, it was when I, because I was diagnosed
[32:40.480 --> 32:46.320] at 50, right? So not that long ago. And as I started doing this podcast and things, I started
[32:46.320 --> 32:51.760] thinking, man, I would love to have like a air quotes neuro-typical person on the show to find
[32:51.760 --> 32:57.840] it like, what the hell is your life like? Because now that I'm looking at my life and my experiences
[32:57.840 --> 33:02.640] through the lens of ADHD and understanding my, what I call my operating system, um,
[33:04.560 --> 33:11.040] oh my god, like how do you, you can stay focused on, on your taxes and, and spreadsheets with no problem?
[33:11.120 --> 33:15.760] And like all these, you know, you're not stressed out and you're not like, and to your point,
[33:15.760 --> 33:20.880] I mean, that, that was kind of my, my take on it too, is like everybody has, there's, I mean,
[33:20.880 --> 33:28.320] even with ADHD as I've constantly heard from, from professionals that, yeah, there's no two ADHD
[33:28.320 --> 33:33.760] cases that are the same. I mean, it is an acronym. It does stand for something that's arguable,
[33:33.760 --> 33:39.920] but there's, I mean, it is an actual thing. Um, so we do have some commonalities, but for the most
[33:39.920 --> 33:46.320] part too, like, yeah, I mean, it's, one ADHD or could be completely different than another ADHD,
[33:46.320 --> 33:51.760] but have some underlying, you know, consistently. Yeah, where it's called being human.
[33:54.160 --> 33:59.680] Right, right. And, and this idea about this is really a social movement because this idea that
[33:59.680 --> 34:09.200] people with ADHD are like defective, you know, is totally, um, uh, not relevant or not, uh, true
[34:09.200 --> 34:14.320] anymore in today's society with social media and things like that. You know, it's just a
[34:14.320 --> 34:21.840] difference. Yes. And neuro, neurodological difference, neurodiversity. Yeah. Um, that's been so
[34:21.840 --> 34:29.920] powerful for me in my journey because, you know, I think this is hard for men. Most of the men I see
[34:29.920 --> 34:35.760] in like the older men who are diagnosed have a lot of shame around. Um, and I'm talking today,
[34:35.760 --> 34:43.200] you know, about ADHD and what does it mean to be ADHD and or autistic? It's just like, oh, no,
[34:43.200 --> 34:50.480] this is a bad thing. But any, most of the women or non-binary folks or trans folks and we see a lot,
[34:51.200 --> 35:00.720] um, are they don't see it like that. I diagnosed them and I say you, you know, the evidence shows you
[35:00.720 --> 35:09.920] are, uh, you have ADHD or you are autistic. They're happy. Hmm. They're happy. Not because they have
[35:09.920 --> 35:16.640] ADHD or autism, but well, because they know what's going on. But more importantly, it doesn't come
[35:17.360 --> 35:24.240] with the judgment, the self-judgment because of the social media and the global community or the
[35:24.240 --> 35:33.840] national community that's like, this is not a, um, disorder. Yes. I always say it doesn't mean,
[35:33.840 --> 35:39.760] you know, how challenge is like, um, getting things done and organized and things like that. But
[35:39.760 --> 35:47.040] everybody has something. Yeah. This is your unique one. Right. Right. And that's absolutely right.
[35:47.040 --> 35:52.080] I mean, I think of it as, as I said before, like as my operating system and, you know,
[35:52.080 --> 35:57.440] knowledge is power and self-knowledge is gold because when you know how you function in the
[35:57.440 --> 36:04.320] world and, and maybe perhaps why you are the way you are in certain aspects, good or bad, um,
[36:05.520 --> 36:10.240] understanding yourself. This is a big part, like I have a presentation I do and I'm working on
[36:10.240 --> 36:14.560] on my next book and have been for the longest time called the root down. And it's about knowing
[36:14.560 --> 36:19.760] yourself, accepting and respecting yourself and then connecting yourself here, you know, helping
[36:19.760 --> 36:25.440] to put an end to loneliness and actually finding the others as they say. And yeah, knowing, I mean,
[36:25.440 --> 36:29.920] that first step has to be knowing yourself. And I think knowing your strengths and I know,
[36:29.920 --> 36:35.120] even though they're unscientific, I am a big fan of all, you know, Myers-Briggs and disk and all the
[36:35.120 --> 36:41.520] other, uh, you know, strengths, finder assessments that you can do to better understand
[36:42.480 --> 36:48.240] with some clarity on, you know, just who you are and how you function in the world. And I think,
[36:48.880 --> 36:53.360] as I said, those are unscientific, but they're still a good way to kind of get an idea of yourself.
[36:53.360 --> 36:59.200] And if you know your operating system is ADHD, then you can add that information to that package
[36:59.200 --> 37:03.680] and then really start to understand yourself and your strengths and how you show up in the world
[37:03.680 --> 37:09.840] and the benefits you have. You mentioned earlier about superpower and I wrote a kind of, uh,
[37:10.560 --> 37:14.880] I wrote a post a while ago and I've talked about it on the show before about my theory with
[37:14.880 --> 37:21.040] superpower and ADHD, which is if you, and I've, I've actually created this on Y squirrels, but
[37:21.840 --> 37:28.480] if you picture a graph and on that graph, uh, the top is, so my, my theory, I'll just shut up. My
[37:28.480 --> 37:35.760] theory is basically that the, the higher your privilege, the more likely you will consider or
[37:35.760 --> 37:43.440] call your ADHD a superpower. And vice versa, the lower, meaning if you are impoverished, homeless,
[37:43.440 --> 37:48.240] perhaps you're in jail. Yeah, that sounds true. It's not a superpower. That's what got me in this
[37:48.240 --> 37:54.720] jail thinking, right? But on the flip side, if you're Paris Hilton, who conveniently wrote a song
[37:54.720 --> 38:01.280] about her superpower being ADHD, which is now sort of an anthem for some people, um, if you have
[38:01.280 --> 38:07.360] Hilton Paris Hilton money, you know, God bless her. I know she's had her own experiences negative
[38:07.440 --> 38:15.600] and so, but she has the, the security to, and, and, and access and, and, you know, to be able to
[38:16.240 --> 38:20.720] gamble on whatever she wants to gamble on it from a creative point of view. And if it fails,
[38:20.720 --> 38:24.880] it fails. It's not a big deal. She's not going to be homeless tomorrow. So it's not a superpower.
[38:24.880 --> 38:30.400] I think that is, that is true because, or it is for her. I always, I always, uh, had a, like,
[38:30.400 --> 38:35.360] a visceral reaction when people would say it's a superpower. And the visceral reaction was,
[38:35.360 --> 38:43.120] you, you don't have ADHD because if you did, you couldn't say I have a superpower because it's,
[38:43.120 --> 38:47.920] it's, you know, I'm going to give you an example. I was flying to London. My other, the other
[38:47.920 --> 38:53.680] company I work with is in London. And I'm now living in Puerto Rico and I flew to New York
[38:53.680 --> 38:59.680] and I got on the train to a JFK. And on the train, I realized I didn't have my passport.
[38:59.680 --> 39:05.200] Oh gosh. Why? Because I have ADHD. And so what I had to do was postpone the flight
[39:05.200 --> 39:10.400] and make a round trip flight back here four hours. And I literally came into the,
[39:10.400 --> 39:16.880] uh, my home picked up the passport off the kitchen table and went, got back on another flight.
[39:16.880 --> 39:23.360] Door, you know, that's ADHD where, you know, the superpower, you know, I do think there are,
[39:23.360 --> 39:29.920] like I said, uh, silver linings, I prefer than superpowers. But you have, you have the,
[39:30.560 --> 39:36.960] not to put you under, but like to say, like you yourself have the, you can afford to have missed
[39:36.960 --> 39:41.360] the flight and have to buy another one. You can afford to take a cab to your house to get to pick
[39:41.360 --> 39:47.360] up. And even then wherever you were going and traveling to, you know, that could wait a day or two
[39:47.360 --> 39:51.440] and the world's not going to explode, right? But like, if you're like, you've been late for work three
[39:51.440 --> 39:56.560] times, you're a single mom and then you're late because you forgot something, you're wallet at
[39:56.560 --> 40:01.440] home and you get your wallet and you show up at work and you get fired now and you've raising kids
[40:01.440 --> 40:08.000] and you're low income. That's a whole, yeah, 100 percent agree. Yeah, yeah, that's a great, but
[40:08.640 --> 40:16.160] I mean, I was that, uh, that, that person for many years, I would say, of my life, you know,
[40:16.160 --> 40:21.840] the struggle, you know, what's, why are my friends succeeding? Why am I not succeeding? And that's what
[40:21.840 --> 40:30.320] really helped me like push me back to grad school. Yeah, but I do think this, this idea of, um, privilege
[40:31.280 --> 40:39.200] impacting how you feel about your, yourself. Right. I think everybody has superpowers, right?
[40:39.200 --> 40:44.320] That's the, that's the key point message here too is that everybody does have superpowers. I have
[40:44.320 --> 40:50.720] exercises I do with my clients to define what those superpowers are, but it's not a narrow type.
[40:50.720 --> 40:56.480] It's not ADHD. That is the superpower. Your superpower may be minus communication. Yeah,
[40:56.480 --> 41:02.480] like I'm great at public speaking at, and I love people. So like one of my superpowers is extra
[41:02.480 --> 41:07.440] version and, and the way that I show up in audio with audiences or with, you know, my clients and
[41:07.440 --> 41:12.800] so forth, um, or networking events or whatever. Um, so those are some, a storytelling, things like
[41:12.800 --> 41:17.520] that comedy, like these are some of my superpowers, but, you know, and you could, you could say that
[41:17.520 --> 41:25.520] ADHD plays a role in, in, in some of those perhaps, but, um, but yeah, that's, that's a different
[41:25.520 --> 41:32.000] ball of wax. I would say as well. It is, it is. I mean, you found out you had ADHD and somehow
[41:32.880 --> 41:39.120] you made your a very successful podcast and you got all this podcast equipment and figured it
[41:39.120 --> 41:46.960] all out. And that requires energy, persistence, you know, and kind of passion, which can be
[41:47.680 --> 41:53.920] that, you know, that is the silver lining of ADHD, you know, and then, if then if you find something
[41:53.920 --> 41:59.360] that actually fits your personality and you could, you know, create virgin records and
[41:59.360 --> 42:05.520] virgin airline, but yet blue, I think was started by somebody with ADHD. Yeah, it was. Yep,
[42:05.520 --> 42:11.680] yep, same with Toys R Us, same with Spanx, same with, yeah, virgin as well. I know, I don't think
[42:11.680 --> 42:17.040] Richard Branson's really talked, I haven't heard too much of him talking about his ADHD, but he
[42:17.040 --> 42:23.520] have, he does, he's very outspoken about his dyslexia, which is also a comorbidity, um, at least
[42:23.520 --> 42:28.960] my understanding that goes along with that can go along with ADHD. So yeah, learning challenges. Yeah,
[42:29.040 --> 42:35.040] yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, and, you know, I would be remiss not to mention inflow, of course,
[42:35.760 --> 42:42.800] and thank you again for supporting what I'm doing here, um, without a commercial, but like, tell me
[42:42.800 --> 42:49.440] a little bit about how, yeah, because obviously you're, you're a smart guy and you've, you're
[42:49.440 --> 42:55.120] educated and you have obviously the entrepreneurial bug has bitten you multiple times over the
[42:55.120 --> 43:02.640] year. So tell me a little bit about how sort of, uh, how inflow came to be. Well, um, one of the things
[43:02.640 --> 43:09.040] they don't teach you in grad schools, how to market your private practice. So I, I, I spent a long
[43:09.040 --> 43:13.760] time after I left the Hallowell Center in New York, set up and set, I set up a private practice,
[43:13.760 --> 43:21.600] and then spent a lot of time marketing it. And, um, through that 10 years later, during COVID,
[43:21.600 --> 43:30.880] I got a LinkedIn message from a young man in London, uh, who was an entrepreneur and a tech
[43:30.880 --> 43:37.440] kind of guru, one of these young geniuses. And he and his partner, his friend, uh,
[43:37.440 --> 43:42.880] was wanted to start a company for people with ADHD, a digital app, and they didn't, they needed
[43:42.880 --> 43:51.040] somebody who was, um, uh, who was a, like, understood, uh, so-called expert in ADHD. And through all
[43:51.040 --> 43:56.880] the marketing and stuff that I had done, I, I guess they found me and we hit it off because
[43:57.760 --> 44:05.120] I, in a way, have never grown up. And so I still like video games and they, of course, were young
[44:05.120 --> 44:12.000] guys playing FIFA video games. So we hit it off based on my interest in that. So whoever says,
[44:12.000 --> 44:15.760] don't, you know, you shouldn't be playing video games because you're, it's childish,
[44:16.720 --> 44:21.760] helping get, uh, a deeper connection with these guys. And right away, we hit it off and
[44:22.400 --> 44:29.040] started a company called Inflow, which, as I said, as a mobile app, it's really a learning program
[44:29.840 --> 44:35.360] to bridge the gap between, you know, you and your psychiatrist and you and your
[44:35.360 --> 44:40.800] affair of your coach because your coach or psychiatrist, especially psychiatrists can't share or
[44:40.800 --> 44:48.400] teach you everything about ADHD. And what we've done is curated all the best tools at tips and
[44:48.400 --> 44:54.400] techniques because, you know, there's a lot of fluff out there that doesn't work, like, you know,
[44:54.400 --> 45:01.760] buy a planner, you know, and that whole, like, this, so, you know, so I, with my ADHD, went through and
[45:01.760 --> 45:09.920] we found all the tools and tips for every challenge and, and it's a, it's audio format program,
[45:09.920 --> 45:14.800] learning program for adults with ADHD. And now we're excited about, we have a new AI,
[45:16.800 --> 45:22.720] what, I don't know what you would call it, a coach AI therapist called Quinn. You know, this is,
[45:22.800 --> 45:32.320] now we're getting the scary territory, but this agent or coach is, is basically takes all the
[45:32.320 --> 45:38.320] information in our database, all the stuff I've curated and you can chat with it and have a
[45:38.320 --> 45:45.520] real conversation, a very empathetic, supportive and surprisingly real conversation with Quinn about
[45:45.600 --> 45:52.560] your ADHD and ways to manage it. And so, how have you been finding that? I'm, you know, I was a
[45:52.560 --> 46:00.240] speaker for Google for about six years and I teach my clients and do presentations about
[46:00.240 --> 46:08.240] using AI and both the combination of sort of the dangers and the benefits of AI. I mean,
[46:08.240 --> 46:15.360] certainly, you know, you'd be silly not to be using AI these days, at least to prepare for
[46:15.360 --> 46:21.440] what's coming and be ahead of competitors and so forth, but as far as AI agents go, you know,
[46:21.440 --> 46:27.760] there, there is concern in how like, let's say chat GPT will hallucinate or not even answer,
[46:27.760 --> 46:34.000] will make up the answer because it's, I always say like, like, in that case, like AI sort of like,
[46:34.240 --> 46:38.880] you're one of your best, like, at least one of my best friends who like never really knows the answer,
[46:38.880 --> 46:43.360] but will act like he does and he'll be like, yeah, yeah, man, I'm 99% sure of that.
[46:44.080 --> 46:49.440] Well, you know, the difference is this at chat GPT is pulling information from the entire
[46:49.440 --> 46:55.040] worldwide web. Yeah. And, you know, as I said, that's not curated. So we don't know, you don't,
[46:55.040 --> 47:01.520] you know, you, if you had problems with your kidney, you wouldn't go to a general doctor. I hope
[47:01.520 --> 47:07.280] you would, you'd go to a specialist is problems. And that's what Quinn is a specialist in ADHD.
[47:07.280 --> 47:11.840] So Quinn takes the information from this database of content that we've curated.
[47:12.480 --> 47:19.600] And then on top of that, we've really worked hard with the engineers to write prompts so that
[47:19.600 --> 47:25.920] Quinn is really supportive and pathetic and much, I think better than chat GPT in that respect.
[47:25.920 --> 47:31.280] That's great. So it's like a chatbot. I mean, it's an AI agent, but it's like a chatbot
[47:31.280 --> 47:38.080] that actually, you know, because yeah, if you, if you host your own LLM, yeah, you can give it
[47:38.080 --> 47:44.320] its own data set so that, yeah, it's not, it's not telling you to like, you know, yeah, just a journal
[47:44.320 --> 47:48.000] with color. Yeah. Right. That's another one. Journal, well,
[47:48.000 --> 47:51.760] journal, look, I'm not making, you know, but who really is going to actually journal,
[47:51.760 --> 47:56.880] say it, you know, and the other one I hate is take three deep breaths. You know, it's like,
[47:57.600 --> 48:04.400] no, I'm in a bad mood or I'm in a super anxious state. I can't like even think about taking
[48:04.400 --> 48:12.160] three breaths. You know, I need something more practical and doable. By the way, for that,
[48:12.160 --> 48:19.520] let me give you a tip. For any kind of like anxiety or emotional regulation, I recommend a migraine
[48:19.520 --> 48:26.160] cap. You know what a migraine cap is? I don't use these kind of spongy material that
[48:27.360 --> 48:32.480] for people who have actual migraines, you put it in your freezer. Oh, sure. Yeah. And you pop it
[48:32.480 --> 48:37.840] over your head and it's a compression. It also cold. And that seems to work for migraines. I'm
[48:37.840 --> 48:43.280] not, I don't know anything about migraines, but I do know that for emotional dysregulation, anxiety
[48:43.280 --> 48:50.400] and meltdowns, they have found that changing your body temperature actually works to calm your
[48:50.400 --> 48:56.640] mood. And you could do that under a heating blanket or a hot shower or cold shower. But this is
[48:56.640 --> 49:02.960] just, you know, go to your freezer and you can spray it with some lavender spray and pop it on. But
[49:02.960 --> 49:11.280] also the cold, yes, it is cold, but the compression really also for some reason is soothing and
[49:11.280 --> 49:18.480] calms you down. So that's a tool and tip. We have it in flow and quinnos as opposed to like
[49:18.480 --> 49:26.000] just take three deep breaths and journal. That's a great, that's a great tip. Yeah, I interviewed
[49:26.000 --> 49:31.680] Ari Fletcher on the podcast. And he was, I believe as Ari, it might have been another guest,
[49:31.680 --> 49:36.000] I can't remember, but was talking about, yeah, recent, I think it's pretty recent of
[49:36.960 --> 49:45.520] confirmation on how, yeah, changing the body temperature, I believe cold, especially really does help with
[49:46.560 --> 49:52.480] with ADHD and probably subsequently anxiety as well with that. So yeah, then that's a great,
[49:52.480 --> 49:56.960] that's a great tip. I haven't thought about that. My wife suffers from migraines. So she has that,
[49:56.960 --> 50:02.320] that one of those masks, but I've never thought to. And we actually just went to a spa when we were in
[50:02.320 --> 50:08.480] Banff just a couple of weeks ago, when we were bumping around hiking across Alberta and British
[50:08.480 --> 50:16.000] Columbia. And we went to a spa and they had the cold plunge there. And so we were going through like
[50:16.000 --> 50:21.520] following the rules, like four minutes, cold plunge, four minutes hot, you know, and so on. And
[50:22.400 --> 50:27.840] we both, like our other experiences with air cold plunges in the past, where, you know,
[50:27.840 --> 50:31.600] we put our feet in and then we're like, yeah, screw this. Let's get back in the hot tub.
[50:31.600 --> 50:37.120] And, and we did that. And then this dude comes in because it's communal space. This dude comes in
[50:37.120 --> 50:41.760] and he's like, all's in and he gets in right up to his neck without missing a beat. And he's in
[50:41.760 --> 50:46.800] there with the timer going down for four minutes. And then he walks out without screaming. And we're like,
[50:46.800 --> 50:52.320] damn it. All right, we got to try this. And we actually, I was able to submerge myself for three
[50:52.320 --> 50:57.520] minutes and my wife did too. And we were, so yeah, we were pretty, pretty proud of that. But yeah,
[50:57.520 --> 51:03.360] maybe it's partly, I don't know, maybe it's partly just the shock of the change that I don't know
[51:03.360 --> 51:07.680] whether you get dopamine from that or some sort of adrenaline boost. Maybe that, and then,
[51:07.680 --> 51:12.000] because my understanding with ADHD, at least, you know, when you're, you're craving dopamine,
[51:12.000 --> 51:16.560] that when you, when you do receive that dopamine, perhaps that helps you then kind of getting
[51:16.560 --> 51:22.240] the zone or focus or kind of get over whatever you're thinking. I don't, I don't, I don't know.
[51:22.240 --> 51:27.040] I know like Peter Shankman's been on the podcast. He jumps out of airplanes to write books. But
[51:28.160 --> 51:35.200] you know, everybody has that luxury. Yeah, I don't know how that would help, but the compression,
[51:35.200 --> 51:40.320] you know, they, for, for kids with ADHD and autism, they give, they give weighted vests.
[51:40.320 --> 51:45.840] Yeah. Okay. I've heard of that. This concept of comfort weighted blankets, this concept of
[51:45.840 --> 51:53.360] compression, or some people with autism, like say, just sit on me. You know, like, I'll feel better.
[51:53.440 --> 51:56.800] And so that's why the migraine caps work.
[51:57.840 --> 52:02.800] Yeah, that's a great, great tip. Any, any other tips that, that you know of that would be,
[52:02.800 --> 52:08.320] that would be helpful for folks. I mean, obviously, you know, putting aside the importance of,
[52:08.320 --> 52:14.400] of stimulants, the importance of medication, because I know, and therapy. And, you know,
[52:15.040 --> 52:20.000] the inflow app, by the way, is fantastic. I really, I really am enjoying it. And I love,
[52:20.800 --> 52:26.400] yeah, your guided sections, like your kind of mini podcast clips within the app itself to help
[52:26.400 --> 52:32.480] people. I mean, yeah, I find it, I find it really helpful. Thank you. Yeah, we, like I said,
[52:32.480 --> 52:38.000] it's been a long time figuring out what's going to work and what's not going to work. So, yeah,
[52:38.000 --> 52:44.880] I mean, there's so many tips out there. But here's the biggest one. ADHD is like two steps forward,
[52:44.880 --> 52:50.560] one step back and the game shoots and ladders or snakes and ladders and England or whatever.
[52:50.560 --> 52:55.440] Yeah, it's so important to understand that we're managing like a lifelong challenge.
[52:56.160 --> 53:02.960] We can make improvements 100%, but often I tell clients after their diagnosis, they say,
[53:02.960 --> 53:08.640] what should I do? What should I do? And I say, please don't do anything. Actually, for six months,
[53:08.640 --> 53:15.360] accept, read, go on, why is squirrel podcast? You know, listen and educate yourself about what is
[53:15.360 --> 53:23.760] ADHD, but often there's a rush to fix ourselves. And in that process, we fail because of the executive
[53:23.760 --> 53:28.480] functioning problems. And then we feel even worse. Oh, nothing's worked. I'm totally hopeless.
[53:28.480 --> 53:34.640] Right. So I say, take time just to learn what it means to be, to be a little bit different.
[53:34.640 --> 53:40.880] And also listening to podcasts and joining in flow and joining Reddit and adda and
[53:40.880 --> 53:46.880] different communities, you feel like, oh, they don't really feel shame about their ADHD, right?
[53:46.880 --> 53:52.640] Yeah. It doesn't really feel bad about his ADHD and neither does George. So maybe I shouldn't either.
[53:52.640 --> 53:57.760] Yeah, that's great. I mean, like I said, I mean, knowing, knowing your operating system, like
[53:57.760 --> 54:02.000] understanding, I mean, it's, if anything, you should celebrate it because just knowing,
[54:02.720 --> 54:09.040] oh, I mean, ADHD, okay, that explains a lot, but moving forward in life without falling down
[54:09.040 --> 54:13.760] rabbit holes and, you know, depressive thoughts about what ifs and all that, but instead thinking
[54:13.760 --> 54:19.520] of not to downplay it, but don't go there, but instead think about the future and how tapping into
[54:19.520 --> 54:27.200] these into how your brain functions can greatly benefit, you know, your business or your career,
[54:27.200 --> 54:32.480] what have or your, your, your family life or dating or whatever. Absolutely, because one of the
[54:32.480 --> 54:40.800] most debilitating symptoms of ADHD is shame. And fortunately, like I said, a lot of the younger
[54:40.800 --> 54:47.760] folks are not feeling that that's not a part of their lives now, but some of us older still struggle
[54:47.760 --> 54:55.200] with the shame of that. So joining and educating yourself and joining communities is really important.
[54:55.360 --> 55:00.640] Yeah, absolutely. Oh my God, George, the time is just flown by here. I've really been enjoying
[55:00.640 --> 55:07.680] this conversation. You can check out in flow for, we have a week's free trial. And if you forget
[55:07.680 --> 55:14.320] to unsubscribe, we have a 28 day grace period for 80s. So just email us and we'll refund you. It's
[55:14.320 --> 55:19.840] not, we're not trying to take advantage of anyone with ADHD. We're just trying to help people
[55:19.840 --> 55:27.920] better understand themselves, feel less shame about them, their ADHD, and to make positive steps
[55:27.920 --> 55:33.840] towards improving their life. Yeah, thank you. And for folks listening, just visit Yscrolls.com
[55:33.840 --> 55:39.200] slash inflow. And that will let George and his team know that you heard about it here first.
[55:39.200 --> 55:44.960] Also, that helps me prove to you why, you know, supporting Yscrolls is worthwhile, you know,
[55:44.960 --> 55:50.880] financially, and I do appreciate again your support of the show. How can folks get a hold of you
[55:50.880 --> 55:55.920] if they have questions or want to follow up? Well, they can, the link you just mentioned, they can
[55:55.920 --> 56:02.800] download inflow and give it a try. If they are interested in a evaluation for those that are
[56:02.800 --> 56:08.560] not diagnosed, so they want a formal evaluation, they can contact me at saccenter.com. That's
[56:08.800 --> 56:17.520] saccenter.com. And to get a, we have telehealth evaluations that are reasonable. And if they want
[56:17.520 --> 56:23.360] therapy, they can certainly contact me at that same website. Yeah, that's great. And yeah, I do,
[56:23.360 --> 56:29.440] you know, we have a free assessment at Yscrolls.com, but it's from the Mental Health Association of
[56:29.440 --> 56:34.800] America. Regardless of the outcome, you need to speak to a medical professional to diagnose you
[56:34.880 --> 56:41.920] properly. And so I do encourage folks to reach out to George here. Yeah, the, I was going to say
[56:41.920 --> 56:48.000] something about that diagnosis reaching out. Oh, yes, something I always add to when I talk about
[56:48.000 --> 56:53.040] this now is, you know, if you go to your own GP, your own general practitioner, your family doctor
[56:53.040 --> 57:00.160] would have you. I always recommend people, if you to ask your doctor first before asking about
[57:00.240 --> 57:05.440] a diagnosis, asking your doctor, hey, so what do you think about ADHD?
[57:06.400 --> 57:14.240] Yes, a good question. Because a lot of doctors are still quacks. They still don't believe in it or
[57:14.240 --> 57:19.680] whatever. And it's really good for a couple of reasons to ask that question, because if they say,
[57:19.680 --> 57:25.680] ah, you know, everybody has a little, you know, to run away and go find a new doctor. And in
[57:25.680 --> 57:30.000] addition to that, if your doctor does say something like that, then they may also say, ah,
[57:30.000 --> 57:34.320] everybody has a little cancer, or everybody has a little heart disease. Don't worry about it,
[57:34.320 --> 57:39.520] or it doesn't exist. Diabetes, you know, so what else don't they believe in? So that's a good
[57:39.520 --> 57:44.320] question for anybody. Regardless of their thoughts about ADHD, their doctor, who do you think about
[57:44.320 --> 57:49.120] ADHD? And maybe maybe it's time to find someone new. All right, brother. Well, George, this has been
[57:49.120 --> 57:54.480] awesome. Again, we kept you a little long. So thanks a million for being here. And yeah, I really
[57:54.480 --> 58:04.080] do appreciate your time and insights. Thank you very much for inviting me.
