PODCAST. Loneliness, Personality Spectrums, and Entrepreneurship with Jennifer Raphael.

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In this episode of the ADHD Wise Squirrels podcast, we talk with Jennifer Raphael, founder of Less-Stress Organizing Solutions. Jennifer is a Certified Neurodiversity Coach, Certified Professional Organizer, and Registered Nurse.

She shares her personal journey with ADHD, from early misconceptions to her diagnosis, and how it influenced her professional path. Jennifer discusses her unique approach to helping clients, integrating neuroscience with a strengths-based, trauma-informed method.

Topics covered include ADHD diagnosis, adapting business strategies, structuring time, the impact of COVID-19, and the differences between extroverted and introverted individuals with ADHD. She also highlights valuable resources and the importance of supportive communities.

SHOW NOTES

0:00 - Early Misconceptions and Realizations Jennifer's earliest memories related to ADHD involved common misconceptions. Initially, she thought ADHD was only about hyperactive boys who couldn't sit still. This perception changed when her son Trevor was diagnosed with ADHD, prompting her to explore the condition more deeply.

4:20 - Professional Background and Personal Discovery Jennifer recounts her long career in nursing, starting in pediatric nursing and transitioning to trauma and transport nursing. Her dynamic work environment suited her ADHD brain well, providing constant stimulation and variety.

6:03 - Starting Less Stress Organizing Solutions Jennifer discusses the inception of her business, Less Stress Organizing Solutions, in 2013. Frequent relocations with her military spouse and her passion for organizing led her to help neurodivergent clients. She highlights the unique challenges and rewards of working with ADHD individuals.

9:39 - Entrepreneurship, Adapting Business Strategies, and Finding Support Jennifer shares her journey of adapting business strategies, balancing digital and paper planning tools, and finding support through coworking spaces like Hera Hub. She emphasizes the importance of intuition and seeking help from those with different skill sets.

Click for details about Planner Pad.

12:17 - Structuring Time and Scheduling Breaks Jennifer explains her approach to time management, using both paper and digital tools to map out her days. She schedules breaks to maintain focus and productivity, acknowledging the need for flexibility and structure. Jennifer recommends Planner Pad.

18:14 - Developing Personal Operating Manuals Jennifer helps clients create personalized operating manuals, emphasizing the importance of paying attention to what captures their focus. She discusses strategies for developing effective questions to guide self-awareness and productivity.

24:33 - Impact of COVID-19 on ADHD Diagnoses Jennifer addresses the rise in ADHD diagnoses since COVID-19, attributing it to disrupted routines and the increased need for structure. The pandemic highlighted the importance of recognizing and meeting individual needs through remote work or other adjustments.

27:28 - Personality Spectrums: Extroversion, Introversion, and ADHD The conversation explores the differences between extroverted and introverted individuals with ADHD. Jennifer, an introvert, shares her experiences and highlights the importance of understanding how different personality traits impact ADHD management.

32:31 - Loneliness and Isolation During the Pandemic Jennifer discusses feelings of loneliness during the pandemic, even when surrounded by loved ones. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing and addressing unmet needs and finding ways to connect with others. Link to Dr. Robin Dunbar interview.

39:04 - ADHD Paloozas and Resources Jennifer introduces ADHD Paloozas, a series of webinars featuring experts discussing various aspects of ADHD. These events provide valuable insights and resources for parents, adults, and couples dealing with ADHD.

43:24 - Final Thoughts and Encouragement Jennifer concludes with encouraging words for listeners, emphasizing that ADHD is not a flaw but a unique way of thinking. She stresses the importance of finding supportive communities and resources to thrive with ADHD.

Resources Mentioned

• Read Odd One Out: The Maverick's Guide to Adult ADD by Jennifer Koretsky.

• Jennifer's Website: Less Stress Organizing Solutions

• ADHD Paloozas: Series of webinars featuring ADHD experts

• ADDA (Attention Deficit Disorder Association): ADDA Website

• CHADD (Children and Adults with Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder): CHADD Website

Connect with Jennifer

• Website: Less Stress Organizing Solutions

• Transcript

  0:00

  My earliest memory actually, that had me even thinking about ADHD but of course, I didn't understand what it was. I was like so many people thinking, Oh, seeing behaviors or what I thought what people said, which was little boys who can't sit still in the classroom and not really knowing anything more than that. When my son was about three, his best friend lived down the street and the dad of this child was going through medical school and he pulls me aside and says, people are going to tell you that Trevor has ADHD. It's overdiagnosed just ignore what they say, you know, years later thinking like, what? What was he saying? I had him saying that to me. And Trevor does have ADHD. And he won't mind that I said that. But so I had that kind of negative Oh, it's something else, or I'm not a good enough parent. Anyway, fast forward to my son was struggling in school, and it was becoming more and more evident that there was something going on. And you know, we had him tested. But as so many of us do, you know, we're just we're treading water, we're just catching the biggest fireball or the signal, whatever, you know, responding to the things and trying to be his executive function. And I have a lot of systems and kind of routines in my own life that work for me. But I started noticing some things and, you know, I read that it was heritable. And I, you know, I wasn't sure I didn't know if I had I hadn't been diagnosed yet. But as he was getting closer to middle school, I was pretty suspicious. And I even had a few people make comments. And again, negative ones, too, like, oh, well, Jen can answer if she can do it without being add, like, in a group setting where, you know, I was embarrassed, because, yeah, I'm an external processor, that when we verbally process out loud, we sort of give it a lot away, right? We're, and that's not, that's not a diagnostic sign of ADHD. But I've noticed that a lot of people with ADHD are external process or verbal processes where we externalize or we need to hear our thoughts to make sense of them. I remember saying to my son at one point, you know, you probably got it from the trough. And he'd say, Yeah, thanks, mom. But it was kind of something we started bonding over. And I, I thought I knew in intuitively that it was important to accept whatever this is the hand we've got, right, whatever it is, because it's not mucky. It's not poker, we can't throw it back and take it out different cards. So I kind of had that attitude all along. And there were a lot of things that we did that that helped. So again, I was looking for a diagnosis for myself. But we went on a staycation for summer after. He's my ex now, after he left. And we took piles of books, and I was reading through a book called odd one out by Jennifer curette. Ski. And it was this moment of clarity for me going, Oh, my gosh, I do have ADHD, there is no question. But I still wasn't doing all the things yet. It was years after that, before I got a formal diagnosis and, and tried medication. As an, you know, just caveat. I'm a big believer in doing the things that work for us, and that there is a lot of needless suffering in the world. So I do I have a bias about medication. And we can come back to that if you want to. But it's if it works for you, and it's safe for you. You know what it's like saying, oh, squeeze your eyes tighter, so you can see and take your glasses off. We would never say that. Or, you know, anyway, I could have disappeared on all kinds of little pathways on this because I have a lot of strong feelings about it. When I started reading about how does it look, when as your child gets a little older, my son was going to high school and becoming an adult and I started seeing, Oh, well, that looks a little different as you get older and I do that, or I did that. But I here's what I do that helps clients to think so it's very clear to me, so is this self diagnosis on the beginning. And so I think it was in my really in my 40s to 50 that I was really becoming more and more aware of it. So

  4:20

  you were you were a nurse right before were you nurse before you realize you had ADHD or did you have were you doing something else and then shifted when you realized

  4:33

  no i i went I've been I've had an active license since 1980 Actually, but I saw I went to nursing school I wanted to work with children and so that I knew that so my first career was in pediatric nursing. I worked at Rady Children's here in San Diego for many years and I've worked in another country and but we weren't talking about ADHD we weren't even talking about like aces or adverse child hood experiences I mean, that was actually kind of uncovered here in San Diego. Like, by accident, I was a trauma, Nurse transport did all those things. And, you know, I connect so many dots. Now when I look back why that was such a good fit for me when it was because it was every day was different. And it was interesting. And I never forgot to give a med i Everything was on time, which again, I bet I was never on time to meet friends for whatever it was, you know, it was always running late to the movies or whatever it was. And yet, I could be just completely on point at work, because it was a good fit for my brain. Yeah, working on a medical ward where I had four patients. And it was, I'm not saying it was boring, exactly. But if I'm being honest, it wasn't stimulating enough for me. And that was a lot harder. But being in the ICU being, you know, going on transport that was really like that my brain was out. And it was a good fit. When

  6:03

  did you start your own business helping, you know, coaching and consulting for folks with ADHD, which is less less stress organizing solutions. So tell me, tell me about how that came to be? Yeah, so

  6:16

  I was married to somebody in the military, we did a lot of moves. It wasn't always practical, how we're going to be here for three months, I'm not looking for a job, at that I have to leave in three months kinds of things. And I've never been to this place. And then eventually, I had kids. So we agreed that I would stay home. So I didn't work for a while. I tried some little businesses, again, there's a lot of entrepreneurs with ADHD, you know if it's interesting, and we're excited about something that's contagious. So I had some some little businesses on the side. But I didn't work for a while I didn't. So I left nursing a little bit. It's hard to go back to when especially if too much time goes by there is some agents I'm in in the work force. And a lot of my peers were going into other kinds of jobs in the hospital and weren't doing as much bedside nursing when I was ready to come back. But in the meantime, I Well, there was a shortage of nurses in the state of California. So I went and I was school nurse for a couple years then. So I was I was doing some nursing. But as a school nurse, I was working with students and parents and I loved that. And that was one of the things I missed about pay to like that whole family unit, the dynamics and and translating things in words are so important to me. Like, it's not important that you use the word I use, but we want to make sure we mean the same thing when we're using it. So I had that I brought that with me when I was thinking, what do I want to do? What do I want? And somebody said to me, you're really good at organizing. Why don't you start organizing business and I liked the idea of kind of having my own hours and my kids were still in school and I was thinking, I used to love 12 Working 12 and 16 hour shifts, but I don't think I want to do that. I mean, I'm, I'll be gone too much of the day too much is not getting done. And I you know, I had tried to work. And I come home and they're just it was all the work was waiting for me. And we could disappear down the emotional load and labor that so many women have been raised with that. I know that that's changing. And there's conversations around that. But I was trying to do all of the things and work and it's hard. It's hard for anybody. And it's hard with ADHD. So the idea of going back to full time didn't appeal to me anymore. And my friends kept saying, John, you're not going to like it things have changed. It's not like it used to be the things that I loved about my work when I would talk to them, those those didn't felt like they were there anymore. So it's really looking for something else. So I started I thought, well, I'm going to explore organizing, and really, it's one of the tools that helps people with ADHD. And even though again, I wasn't I didn't start out that first day thing. I'm going to only work with neurodivergent clients, but that's what I ended up doing. They're just my people. And it's really were relatable to each other and and we make it fun. And every time I go, it's different, and it's different for them. And there's no judgment there. So there were just so many things that that worked about it. And so in some ways, I'm grateful that it was a little bit hard to break back into, like a traditional nursing job because it had me thinking about what am I good at and what how do I want to spend my time which I think that's a good question for anybody to ask.

  9:39

  And you launched it in 2018. Is that right?

  9:42

  No in 2013 So yeah, so 10 years. No, that's okay. What you don't have my bio memory it's in your brain library, right? Yeah. It was just developing it as I went and what is what am I What do I want to do Morrow? What? What's working? What services do I want to provide? How do I get the word out. And you know, any business when you're starting is hard, like, I don't like the parts that are boring, or that are difficult, or that I'm not sure how to do and trusting myself on some of those kind of tech things. And in the beginning, were really hard. But I found people that knew how to do it and, and kind of had like, some support around me. So for

  10:29

  others, who might be starting businesses or other entrepreneurs, you know, you, you mentioned, finding other people to help you, you know, do the things that maybe aren't as interesting to you, or, you know, where you're maybe not as strong and yeah, yeah, how did you how did you go about finding those people to or person to help you?

  10:55

  I have pretty strong intuition. So and, you know, if I have somebody in my life that I trust, and they're talking about something and I'm hearing it somewhere else to then I'll pay attention to that, and maybe I should look into this. And it you know, a, there was a shared workspace called Hera hub here in San Diego, it's still alive and thriving. But I thought, well, maybe I need to be going somewhere, and not trying to do this from home. So I recognize, too, that at that point, there were a lot of distractions. So again, it's listening to that voice in your head that saying, You need something a little different here. What is that, and then being willing to experiment with that, too. But there were people that had different skill sets there. And people were sharing their ideas. And there were different kinds of classes and tools there that were built in. So I was taking advantage of that, too, and then doing some of the writing there. And one of the things we know, with ADHD is like, you know, we need some structure. So having those hours that you dedicate to work, what am I working on today, and I go there, and it sort of almost creates this little kind of like Pavlov's dog response, right? Like, oh, I'm sitting here, I'm doing this I'm writing today. Even creating that kind of external, like structure around. I don't go there anymore. But it was really one of the best things that I did when I first started. So

  12:17

  working at a co working space, just because it was surrounded by other people there who Yeah, have different talents and different skills that can help kind of contribute to what you're trying to build as well. So yeah, powerful way to grow your network professional, professionally speaking, as well. So yeah, and then and then as far as like, blocking time like, like allocating hours beyond, you know, changing location, you know, from home or wherever to to the co working space, do you? Or did you have like DD block time like using? Like a, you know, old school calendar or using like a digital calendar or something like that? Or how did you stay focused on specific topics during specific periods of the day?

  13:10

  Yeah, good question. One of the I had a business coach when I started to, and she's Leslie, Joe. So big shout out to her. And she works with students and parents, but she had developed a planner, and I remember asking her, what do you recommend for for adults, because this is geared to kids. So even though the time markers on and she said, Oh, planner pad, and I trust Lesley, so I thought, all right, I'm going to check out planner pad, and I used it. And I really, really love having one place to put things so I but I have a hybrid that. So I use paper because I think with a pen in my hand. But it's not a it's not practical to only be on paper. So I resist it a little bit. And I and some of it is just is shifting the language again. And you know why I come back to like, the words matter though, what we say to ourselves matters, those voices in our head thing, you're not doing it wrong, this is what you need. So I needed a version of both. So it wasn't that I don't have a a tool or an app that I say okay, here's what I have this week, tell me when to do it. That would freak me out. I like to have flexibility with my structure. So I do it map it out on paper, I look to see what makes sense. And then I'm evaluating it to like, going at the end of the week, or at the end of the day, like what works, what didn't work. It's not always like like, it's not hours of that but it might be a minute at the end of the day or it might be more time it just depends but kind of looking at that like this was too much I need note itself. I need bigger transition times between calls, because we tend to be running late or and that way. I'm not worrying that somebody's running late and I'm still on time to the next appointment kind of thing. Yeah. Like it just to answer your question you're asking like, how do I how do I track? Or block time out?

  15:09

  Yeah. So do you still use planter pads? That's what you mentioned I,

  15:14

  I do but as so many of us with ADHD do is I did the same thing going, I wonder if there's something else, maybe I want to try something else or I had a client that much and she loves everything to be really colorful, and she uses different colors mean different things. And, and she was talking about a planner that she loved. So I went to Staples and I looked at all the planners, and I came home with two or three new ones. And about three months later, I ordered another planner pad and decided, nope, this, this works for me. And if I want to add color, I can do it in other ways. And that's what I've done. It's like, having the bones be good is important to me. And I think it is for a lot of people like because it can be it can look good. I'll say even like, Oh, my schedule looks great. It looks good on paper. But we also have to block in time for the energy like what kind of energy am I going to need? What kind of ramp do I need for this thing that I'm getting ready to do? How much time do I need to clear before I start so that I feel mentally and physically prepared. And that can even be like if you've been sitting for hours like it, that's a lot I realized I didn't want to do back to back to back calls. And I know there are other people that do that. And they can fit in more hours of work in their day. But it just doesn't work for me, I get too restless. And it's not good for me physically. So I have I I own that. I honor that in myself, and feel really good about what I do then throughout the day.

  16:49

  Do you schedule out I work? Yep. Oh, sorry.

  16:52

  Do I schedule schedule breaks? I do. So I I scheduled breaks? And I have a few clients on? Can they say no. So one student who is admitted to me that they? Well, I know that you do have extra. So sometimes they take advantage of that. And I said, I know if you want if you ever want me to hold you accountable for that, you know, we can but I also want to I respect that it's hard. It's hard to be here. So it's something it's a way I can be? Can we you know, be genuine about that. Like, I know it's hard to be on time or I know. Like we don't always estimate how much time it takes to oh, we think we're finishing something when we're actually starting something else. Which my daughter called me out on so Oh, it's humbling. I don't remember if you told me if you have kids?

  17:45

  Yes. Yeah, I have two teams, some teenagers do

  17:48

  minor in their 20s now, but I remember her saying I didn't realize she was behind me. She was at the door waiting for we were going somewhere and I said I just kind of finish what I'm doing. And she goes, Mom, you just started something else. Yeah. Oh, so pulled out. And she was I didn't see it that way. I really thought I was finishing something. But I had started something else. Yeah,

  18:11

  that's interesting. She's right.

  18:14

  Yeah. You're gonna say stuck in my head, though. Oh, I mean, he got stuck in my head. And like, that is a good thing to a question to ask myself. Am I start? Is this really important? It might be yes. Is it important now? Is this the right time to do it? So I have my questions that I asked myself to get on the situation. Do

  18:33

  you have strategies for helping your clients and you know, for folks listening to develop some of these questions and maybe figuring out when, when best to ask those questions to ourselves?

  18:52

  Yeah, well, so there's no one size fits all I wish I was. And that again, that's part of what I love about this. So with anybody that I'm working with, we're, we're developing their personal operating manual, essentially. So we're looking at that, or, you know, what, what was what was going on in your head? So I practice what I teach. So like, what am I thinking about right now? What's that my attention? Or why? Why do I want to do this or what? So what I encourage people to like pay attention, start by paying attention to what you're paying attention to. That was one of the best pieces of advice I got when I in my early in my coach training,

  19:33

  So paying attention to what you're paying attention to.

  19:38

  And then maybe having some questions and what questions resonate, you know, sometimes we hear something like we're listening to a podcast or we read a book, having a place that again, probably most of us have, how many journals Can I read from here I can see like seven or eight just in front of me. You know, I write these things in this one and those things from that but having a place where you To capture ideas that you can go back to, or I have clients who do that they have the notebooks that they open when we work together so that it's containerized. A little. So I would say sometimes it's even have we're building in some external structure around something, even if it's a notebook or an app where you capture things, so you can trust that is there so you don't have it all swirling in your head?

  20:20

  Yeah, just getting it out, I find, you know, I was diagnosed. And I have, I've been cleaning out some closets recently and found like all these old journals of mine, and yeah, or just notebooks where I would write journal entries, like randomly in the middle of the notebook, but and I have all these, like, journals that are I've maybe written like, 10%. And, and the rest are all empty pages. I've gone for like journal, the journal, the journal. And I'm like, Why the hell did I not just I mean, it's not like I lost the book. Like, I knew where the books were kept. But for some reason, I would. I don't even know if I don't think I consciously did it. I don't recall ever thinking, Oh, I should start again in this one now, like, I don't know why. Why we do that. But it's it's frustrating now from an archival point of view, because it's like, yeah, yeah. How many books do I have to hide for my kids here?

  21:24

  Any of them is my answer. That's up to you.

  21:26

  You haven't read them?

  21:28

  Well, bad part. Yeah, I fear. You may have to put a lock on some of them and say these are not not yet. Yeah.

  21:37

  Oh, my gosh, well, why do we? I mean, there's probably some different answers. And I'm going to this is a guess. But I think for some for me, personally, the turtle is like, ooh, this one's pretty wide. Like how this paper feels. Maybe I'll, I want to write in this one, or I don't have the other one handy. And I pick up a different one, or I might not remember that. Oh, yeah, I started writing things. When I'm listening to classes or in this or?

  22:05

  Yeah, I would also do, I would do something where I write I fill out a page. And I still have more to write about, but then I don't I choose not to go on like I've I filled that one page. And then I flip it. And I know, like, I think should I write on the left side of the page over the, you know, the other side of the page I've just written on? Or should I write on this clean page? And then I'm like, I've already filled out a page. It's almost like, I don't want to mess it up.

  22:37

  Well, there is something to that. So we're like, oh, I, I want to start fresh with this new idea. I mean, there may be some of that, too. I think there's a little of all of that, or parts of that for us. But then not wanting to mess up. If that resonates and I had a conversation earlier today about, you know, it'd be really easy to when somebody says, I haven't finished the writing this thing, or I haven't done this other thing that I said I was gonna do to be like, Okay, what do we need to do to break that down? What makes it easier? And those are good questions. But what was getting in the way for this client was being she was saying to herself in her head about it, the meaning she was assigning to it and that's tougher. Why am I writing this? Um, if I don't think you know, like, the imposter syndrome can really rear its head. And your diagnosis is new for you. So I imagine you're connecting dots all over the place to event big time.

  23:34

  Oh, yeah. Big. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and imposter syndrome is a big thing that I've dealt with through throughout my life, really? Are you finding because stuff that I'm reading is, there seems to be a lot more ADHD diagnosis now or, you know, people realizing they have ADHD being diagnosed? Since COVID. And I think my understanding of you know, is it's related to having been quarantined or having to work from home suddenly, and not being in your usual setting, and also having the distractions of families and pets and whatnot, that are just just the temptations of distraction as well like Netflix or you know, whatever, whatever it might be. Yeah. What What have what have you seen as far as you know, since since COVID, with ADHD diagnosis?

  24:33

  Yeah, that's a good that's a good question. And it's come up a lot. I've been attending some different the Palooza that have been ADHD Palooza has recently been doing helping with some of the transcriptions the edits of the transcriptions for for their websites, and so really listening to some of these speakers, but that that question is asked a lot actually, like, and, and I think, like if we looked at numbers that the numbers were rising before the pandemic, but You're right about what the pandemic really did highlight or bring attention to the structures that we need, that we're not there anymore. Or, and on the flip side of that, for some people, it actually worked better, some people liked to change, you know, and will even feel, you know, kind of say that under their breath, because they, because there was so much suffering through through the pandemic, not, you know, not wanting to say, this was good for me, because it really sucked for so many people. But the truth is that we are more aware than ever what we need and what's missing, and it was very isolating for a lot of people. And I've seen a huge rise, you know, I mean, I have, I don't really advertise my, I mean, I have, you know, I'm on some directories and, and such, but I'm not. I'm getting a lot of clients, by word of mouth now, and from therapists and psychiatrist and other coaches, and that feels really good. And I've been in business for for 10 years, but maybe people know me, you know, they know somebody who's worked with me, or, you know, they and they also know the value of of having a coach or having that reflective partner, somebody to that weren't safe to say the things that and that isn't judging you. But we're, I'm seeing a lot of yeah, there's a lot of students, there's a lot of adults that are realized they're like, What is going on? Why can't I do this thing, it never used to be a problem. And I remember working with somebody several months ago, who really thought she was doing everything wrong. And it turns out, she had, she had left an office space that had everything, like the structure was there, she had a quiet, she had a quiet room, she could shut her door, and put a sign on it that said, you know, don't just start, you know, in a meeting or whatever, however, she had that labeled, but she was trying to work from home while she was packing to move. And every she was in one big open space. And you think about, like how different that is, you're so distracted, if you're, if you've got a very strong visual modality and a lot of us do, you know, what you need is different than what I need, or you know, how much is too much. But still, like if you can see all that stuff and all those reminders of Oh, yeah, I'm moving like it's really distracting. We're not getting work done. I'm carrying the hard to come back to the thing to once we're distracted like, yeah, bringing focus back to it. Oh, nightmare. Have

  27:28

  you discovered or something I've been thinking a lot about is the fact that I'm quite an extrovert, and how that applies to ADHD as opposed to introverted people in ADHD? Or are there common things you see or? Yeah, it's like, tell me a little bit about that.

  27:53

  Yeah, that's, that's an interesting question. I don't know where the numbers fall out. That would be that would be an interesting research study, or, you know, some kind of like, just to put out, maybe that's something you put on your, your website or something like, you know, you maybe a questionnaire like, how many of you are extroverts? I'm an introvert. So, which surprises some people when they hear that one on one I'm, I am, I get energy from the conversation. And I'm like, I'm really happy to be doing this today with you. And having this conversation can be a little harder for me to walk into a room where there's lots and lots of people. And that's a different energy, and then I need to recharge by myself. And I think that's one of the like definitions, right? If you're an extrovert, you, you recharge yourself going? Well, like what I would say is going into a burning building, there's no one to say, Why am I going here? Going to this party? Right? Why are we going to this thing, even though once I'm there a lot of times, I mean, it's really fun, like going to a concert. I know I love like music, but I need to make sure that I schedule time to regroup or recharge myself whereas my friends who are extroverts that's recharging them, they're recharging while they're there. They are they're needing to like, I've been home and I need to get out of the house and I'm like, Oh, I've been out of house I need to go home. I don't see I don't see it one way or the other for my clients. Honestly, I haven't I haven't drafted I would say it's really a mix. Just like I wouldn't say that everybody has an external you know, verbal processor with ADHD, but a lot of us are, but it isn't. It isn't true of all of my clients, some of them really stopped to think and they they process internally and it's really quiet and then they say this beautiful thing

  29:41

  during the pandemic, especially during the quarantine I was telling. I was kind of outspoken about not outspoken. I almost felt like I should start some sort of support group for extroverts, but I as crazy as that sounds, but I was like I did write it on like LinkedIn and else Where I was saying like, hey, introverts, it's our turn, like go check in on your extroverted friends. Because, you know, there are a lot I

  30:11

  saw posts like that actually I didn't I and some of my favorite people are extroverts. Yeah, I really struggled like you. I mean, that's a good point, like, makes life work better for extroverts is to be able to go and do or even to go and sit and write in the coffee shop, because they like all that activity and energy. Yeah. And yeah, so go get your coffee and talk to the people in the line, and you're all charged up, and then you can go do the thing. Right,

  30:38

  right. Right. Yeah, I found that to be very interesting. For me. Yeah, just like, on a personal level that way. And also, you know, I started reading more about loneliness. I was having my own deal deals with anxiety and a little depression during, like, certainly at the beginning and 2020 Of course, not knowing I had ADHD, and so that would have explained a little bit. But I also like, just going through feelings of loneliness and realizing that, you know, you can be home with your loving family and, but still feel lonely. And you know, that it's just a natural normal thing. And a lot of people, myself included at first was was worried because Why am I feeling so lonely? I'm surrounded by my family. But now you can you can absolutely feel that way. In fact, I, I had interviewed Robin, Professor Robin Dunbar on a my other podcast that I do. And he famously came up with something called Dunbar's number, which is, I forget that Yeah. Yeah. And it was a great conversation about about that, because yeah, and Dunbar's number, yeah, as you know, is the number of relationships, the number of relationships you can really manage. And it's just not one, it's not one number, per se, although it is about 150. But it breaks into certain circles. So all the way down to like you and your spouse or loved one or, or whomever or your best friend, and then kind of your family and your extended family and your closest friends. And so on that kind of the circles get bigger, up to around 250. And yeah, he wrote a great book about friendship, which I loved. And so it was pretty fascinating conversation to have with him.

  32:31

  You sat on on the is that you said it's on your other on your other pod? Yeah,

  32:37

  it's on my Yeah, it's on my other podcast called The nice podcast. So but yeah, I might look at re, I might edit it a little and put it on this feed as well, because it is it is a really great conversation. So

  32:54

  that could be a very interesting actually. Conversation Starter for people or just that kind of thinking about, again, who is with it? Which circle are different people within? Or who kind of I would I was thinking, as you were saying that is? You know, you said, we can be lonely when we're we have people with us and and you had asked earlier, what kind of questions do you have people ask, but it's like what needs aren't being met when, you know, we're not always in the state, you know, maybe to be able to ask ourselves out when we're feeling certain feelings, right, because we're in a different part of our brain, but still to be like, it's a lot to expect of anybody to meet all our needs, right? They don't like we have different, you know, we have our social group, and we have the people we know, we can talk about ADHD to not having that expectation, but even to have that visual to be like, Oh, wait until I'm with this group to talk about x or this or to start noticing those kinds of patterns to like, when we feel irritated, say with a certain group that doesn't get it like this isn't the place maybe to have this conversation. So we start to maybe look at that and then note, you know, some of the loneliness can go away, or that feeling like that isolation, right? And I noticed that a lot with in this community of people with, you know, ADHD, brain wiring. We can be comfortable in certain settings talking about it, and I catch myself to be like, oh, yeah, not everybody wants to hear about this. I don't understand why because it's so interesting, but it's interesting to me, but and I still hear those people that are out there that even somebody was walking past my garage one day that said, Oh, everybody is a little add. Oh, excuse me, ma'am. And I did. I stopped in in the nicest way in and she was really gracious, actually. But I did stop and I thought I'm taking one for the tea. Yeah, she doesn't understand this. And I think it I can't just pretend I didn't hear this. And maybe she'll think about this. And she was really appreciative. She's like, I didn't know that. Thank you so much. I, I thought everybody was I mean, she really just thought that and some brain changes as we get older in hormone changes. People do have an experience of it. But if you've left her keys, or you've lost your keys once you don't have ADHD, that it's not. Yeah, it's a little more complicated than that. But it's Yeah. Yeah,

  35:21

  it is. It is a fascinating journey to discover. Yeah, that to discover this about myself, certainly. And, you know, anybody listening as well, just because, yeah, you, you do you spend a lot of time sort of reflecting on things. And, you know, I've mentioned it on the show before, but, you know, with kind of urging people not to dwell on the what ifs, but instead instead celebrate, you know, their wins and their successes and, and where they are now. And, you know, I think about Yeah, my life's not perfect, nobody else. Nobody's life is perfect. But I'm, you know, I've got a you know, I'm married to my best friend, she's awesome. I've got two great teen teenager kids, they're mine. I've got a cute dog, lovely house, like, like, our health and all the things. So you know, but if I, when I soon as I started thinking about like, well, what if? What if we had caught this when I was a kid, it might have put me on a different trajectory? Or would have certainly, you know, I could have gone right instead of left at eight o or or gone to, you know, some other country and not Ireland, where I ended up meeting my wife. And so, like, all of these things, like I drank like a fish when I was younger and realizing that alcohol. Yeah, I didn't realize it at the time, but I was using alcohol as a stimulant. And, but my loved one

  36:53

  works. So well does it? Especially as you get older,

  36:56

  it definitely does depression to actually yeah, but again, like, you know, I, I loved Ireland and the culture and the pub culture. And I still love pubs but not drinking. Yeah. So you know that, again, that I probably wouldn't have gotten Ireland and I wouldn't have met my wife and I wouldn't have had our kids and loved where we do. And so, yeah, yeah. So I've kind of celebrating the wins along the way. I

  37:21

  that's really important. You know that that comes up a lot in conversations, too. And I heard, I heard a phrase yesterday when I was listening to one of these podcasts, and I was editing and they said, here's three words, to remember, up until now. And I went, Wow, that just gave me chills, like up until now. So I couldn't I didn't know. I mean, we didn't know but we do now. So what are we going to do with this input? You know, how do I want to go forward? But it? I would say, it's not uncommon. And I think it's fair to give yourself some space to grieve a little bit of like, the what, yeah, it doesn't help to dwell, but it's, it can be isolating to think you're not supposed to, you know, have any regrets or to Oh, yeah, wish things might have been different. Right. So but that's all what you're saying. But I think we can get stuck in those feelings. So I say glance back, but look forward. That's I wrote a book a few years ago, too, and it was more about like, how I rebuilt my life after divorce. But, you know, there's life lessons that apply to anything and that was one of them was glance back, but look forward. Yeah, yeah. If we're always looking back at what we're doing, have you ever walked into something because you were walking backwards? Yep. Done that walked into a pole on the street or something? I can't remember. Yeah. But yeah,

  38:48

  we're our worst out into an intersection or off a cliff or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Tell me you mentioned ADHD palooza. And yeah, tell. Tell us about that a little. What's that?

  39:04

  I mean, there are so many good resources out there there. There is always a webinar or something but a couple of times a year there are these Palooza is Linda Rodley. rondalee r o g g li she does a couple of them and then impact parents. Diane and and Elaine ran the parent Palooza, but it's a series of, of their interviewing and having conversations with different experts in the ADHD field related to the topic. So this last one was for parents and I imagine there were educators there too, but different speakers and they're usually around half hour, 30 3040 minutes and the one before that was you know kind of your two adults with ADHD and then there's one that the third one is for couples you So they're they're talking about relationships and those dynamics. And again, do you need to be married to attend those? I would say no. Like, we have relationships period in our lives, right? Even if they're at work, it's some of the conversation might shift. But I think that's one of the beautiful things to me about being kind of a contextual thinker, as we are with ADHD is like, we can take this and apply it to other places. We just don't always trust that we forget. Oh, yeah, this applies in other parts of my life. What can I can learn about this, even listening about to the people talking about children? I was thinking about that a lot after I mean, I've been doing that for several days. thinking, gosh, we can parent the child in ourselves like, so going back to that. Yeah, we don't want to dwell on the what ifs and and be stuck in, if only days. Right. But yeah, what didn't?

  40:53

  What What need wasn't? Is there still a need that I would like to meet? So can I give that to my inner child? I don't know. I mean, like, I

  41:04

  think there are some, you know, there's takeaways from from different things. But those are, I would say, the way to kind of know that some of these things are going on. Is that Is that what you're wondering to? Like, where are some of these resources? Yeah, that would be great. Um, one of the organizations that's out there is adda a DDA. And it's, it's the target is adults with ADHD. There's also Chad CH, a, dd, which is children's and adults with ADHD. But, and I can, I don't know if you have shown outside or I can can send you links for these. If that's helpful. Yeah, that would be great. But, you know, it's, you can get on, get on the newsletter list. And you see what's coming up. Of course, with ADHD, we tend to think, okay, there was another webinar. I didn't, I didn't listen to this one. This week, I'm doing it wrong. And like, I promise you, there will be more. There are so many and so many things that are free. And these blues are free if you listen in real time, but if you decide you want to go back to them, then you can, you know, pay for the recordings, and they're yours for life, which is kind of nice, too. But we'll wait. So that's the question. Like, we got to know ourselves because we're kind of a marketer's dream, right? Oh, I want this. So we kind of sometimes learn the hard way. Yeah, we don't necessarily need to buy all the things. Right. Yeah. But it's, I have gone back and listened. But it's, again, know also knowing like, do you do better if you're listening in person, because you can see what's going on in the chat. You feel more kind of engaged with the whole process. And I would think for an extrovert that could definitely be another way to kind of meet that need to like you're with people, even though it's virtually for me as an introverted, I'm not in the room with all of them, I can turn my camera off, so I can manage some of our discomfort that way. This

  43:06

  has been incredible, Jennifer, like, are very helpful. Is there anything I didn't ask you about? I'm being mindful of the time here. But do you have any? Any Yeah, were there questions or topics? I didn't I didn't ask you about that you'd like to mention, oh, my gosh,

  43:24

  there's, there's so many things we could talk about, right? I'm a big believer in leaving when the party is still fun. Maybe? Maybe that's because I'm an introvert. I don't know. But because then maybe we come back to it. I think there may be there will be questions that we can talk again and another might I didn't have an agenda, I figured we would let it flow organically. I think that's what we had talked about before. Yeah. I could talk all day about this. I love. I love doing this work that I do. I love the people that I work with the community that supports people with ADHD and other neuro diverse brain styles. We just say to people, you're not broken. To say it's a gift, especially starting out and feel really heavy. I don't say that to people. I think there are things about it. I wouldn't give it back now. But there are moments where like this is this is this is what makes this is what's hard. Some of those moments and there are a lot of them. But there are supports out there you I would you know I want to encourage you and anybody like to talk to the people that are in the community that understand it and get it there are just so many resources and like I will steer somebody to the right resource if I'm not the right person. I might know somebody that is so I've had those conversations with people that are looking for someone really specific and You know, we have a really nice conversation and they move on to the thing that they really need. And I want to respect that too, like there is. There's so much need and so much we're so I don't feel like I'm in competition with anybody, honestly, it's, it's a, like we're serving a bigger, a greater good at least that's how I see it. And I never want to do harm to anyone. So I think you know, if anybody is feeling like, this isn't working for me, or you know, I don't connect with my doctor, whatever it is, or why did they say this? Like, it's okay to question that, like, we can be really uncertain and not trusting ourselves. Sometimes I think with ADHD, we've heard a lot of negative messaging in our lives, they they estimate what 20,000 More negative messages by the time you're 12 if you have ADHD, then for the non, or non ADHD person. And, you know, I don't know who held those numbers. It's kind of right in there with If so, and so has 69 watermelons. We're sitting there going? Who needs six? Why are we getting 69? watermelons? That's probably you're missing the point. That's not the point of this. Why isn't it the point? I want to know why we're getting 69. And you asked to carry them into the house? Because it would have been my job to carry them. Yeah. If I was the oldest, I was the biggest. So yeah, to

  46:27

  do all Yeah, to do all the work. This has been great. Well, Jen, how can people get how can people get a hold of you and learn more about what you do?

  46:38

  My website is really easy. It's less dash stress.com. I have lots of resources on there. I have I've been I'm trying to keep it fairly simple so that people aren't completely overwhelmed by it. The irony again, it's not lost on me. But I that first conversation, people can schedule a what I call a new client interview. And we chat about what's going on and what needs they're looking to meet and decide if it's a good fit and, and they're always good conversations regardless of whether somebody works with me, but that's that's probably the easiest way