PODCAST: Leadership, Production, and Mindset Tools with Bryan Yates.
Episode Sponsored by: Futureforth.com. Book your complimentary ADHD-aware coaching session or book Dave Delaney as your next company or conference keynote speaker.
In this episode of the ADHD Wise Squirrels podcast, host Dave Delaney shares details about his Master Communicator’s Secret Weapon presentation while exploring the intersection of high-stakes production, leadership, and the neurodivergent mind with guest Bryan Yates.
Yates, a former Disney producer turned leadership coach, shares insights on how ADHD adults can navigate the feeling of being "stalled" even when they are "insanely capable".
The ADHD Journaling Trap
Many Adults with ADHD find themselves surrounded by a graveyard of half-filled journals, a struggle Dave Delaney identifies as a common frustration for those with a late ADHD diagnosis. Yates suggests a radical shift in perspective for ADHD Adults:
Treat journaling as a "warm-up" or a mental "workout" rather than a permanent record.
Avoid the pressure of creating a masterpiece for future readers.
Use the process to "blow the cobwebs off your head" and then feel free to destroy the pages.
This approach helps bypass the imposter syndrome and self-doubt that can plague Wise Squirrels when they look back at unfinished projects.
Navigating the "Misery Miles"
Yates draws on his background in competitive cycling to describe the "depression dip" or "misery miles" that occur during long-term projects. He notes that ADHD Adults often excel at the start of a "marathon" but may lose sight of the finish line as they move a mile a minute.
ADHD Adults frequently do a poor job of defining what "winning" looks like.
Success should be viewed as a series of small, manageable "mini-finish lines" rather than a zero-sum game.
For high-performing adults with ADHD, recovery is not a punishment but a vital part of the process to avoid cognitive overload.
The "Over and Next" Mindset
To maintain momentum, Yates introduces a tool inspired by the legendary producer Norman Lear: the "Over and Next" mindset. This is particularly effective for ADHD adults who feel stuck between their past failures and future ambitions.
Over: Identify the habits, judgments, or "shoulds" that you are outgrowing.
Next: Focus on the immediate next step that is directionally sound.
Inventory Days: Yates recommends that Wise Squirrels take a dedicated day each month to recognize how they have structurally changed over the year, as their minds often tell them "nothing is different".
Unburying Your Brilliance
The conversation concludes with an emphasis on "generative listening"—the ability to hear what is unsaid—and finding your original "song". For Adults with ADHD, this means moving away from trying to be "commercial" or "marketable" and instead unburying the unique brilliance that makes them who they are. By shifting from judgment to curiosity, ADHD adults can regain their momentum and find self-trust in their professional lives.
-
Bryan Yates: My name is Bryan Yates, and I coach senior leaders who are insanely capable and they feel stalled. That's what I do professionally. And additionally, I basically am a former Disney producer who's turned into a coach. And so, that's what I do professionally. I happen to also produce and own an international bike race in the area of California where I live. So, still producing in many ways, still working as a creative producer, but you know, primarily working with stalled leaders and teams.
Dave Delaney: And the Bovine Classic is the fourth hardest cow-themed gravel ride in America, is that correct?
Bryan Yates: Let's get a little clarified. It's America's fourth hardest cow-themed gravel ride in a California wine region that's not called Napa or Sonoma.
Dave Delaney: Fair enough! Fair enough! That's awesome. Well, we first got connected after I spoke with another guest of mine, Stephanie Sheller, who was on episode 61 and who is fantastic. Um, and she connected with you and had some wonderful insights and things from spending time with you. And so, she encouraged me to—or she connected us, I think. And then, yeah, we had a call as well—and yeah, you're great at what you do. And, yeah, I appreciate your insights and things too. So, um, what—I would love to learn a little bit first, like what getting into like the pro—like you mentioned, you know, producing at Disney. What's a skill that you learned there that like you use with your coaching clients? Because I think production versus coaching, I think there's similarities there as well. So.
Bryan Yates: Yeah, I think what's different from my approach to with other from other coaches is that being a producer means that I look forward into the future, right? My ideas—I didn't work on movies, I worked on interactive media and helped build Disney Online. But as a producer, you have to have a vision of where we're taking, where we're going. What is the movie going to look like? What's the story that we're telling? And then working backwards to get there, right? And I think I'm pretty fortunate that I've had a mentor in the past from Disney and then in businesses afterwards who said that I in me, in my case, I have the rare rare capacity of being equal parts right and left brain, right? So I can be exceedingly creative, but at the same time, I can substantiate it with data and I'll look at the numbers and, you know, I can rock the spreadsheet to get us where we need to go. So, you know, it's—it's that looking forward, being able to visualize what others can't, and then working backwards to get there and keeping keeping the project directionally sound. So, as that applies to coaching, right? Someone comes in and they're stalled. We have to spend a lot of—a lot of time we're stalled and we don't know what we're going to do next. We don't know what the next step is, even even super accomplished people, right? And we don't necessarily know what the next step is, we're not clear and we don't have to be clear, we just have to take the next step and at least kind of be directionally sound and have an idea of where things will go. Or at least, if we still can't be directionally sound, then the work is: how do we step further into getting clearer to figure out what that direction is going to be?
Dave Delaney: And at what point like I know, you know, I do a lot of keynotes and workshops around communication skills. And one of the kind of takeaways or core competencies from this talk I do called the Master Communicator Secret Weapon, where I reveal this secret weapon to improve how you communicate. Um, you know, the three sort of takeaways or the three the three outcomes, um, one of them is overcoming a fear of failure. And I use the example of of Pixar, you know, in the- in the idea of of keeping your ugly babies uh and- and not like not getting rid of them necessarily. And I think a lot of, you know, Disney, I'm sure same point where like a lot of great ideas are born but they have a gestation period. They have time, you know. Are there points that like when you're coaching folks where they're ready to give up on something where you may say: like no, no, you're kind on the cusp, or- or instead- and we talked a little bit about stuff like that too- but yeah, what are- what are your thoughts on that when- when a leader or somebody is like ready to just throw in the towel? I mean it may be the right decision, but um- I think you- I made a note about something I read about or heard from you elsewhere about the over and next tool. Um, yeah, is that part of one of those things? Or maybe you could-
Bryan Yates: Could be, I mean, could be, but I think that for a lot of us, you know, you initiated this with fear of failure in your keynote talk and it's kind of—I think what happens for a lot of people is that they do a very poor job of defining what winning is. Um, and so we make winning a zero sum proposition and it has to be the big thing, right? It's the idea and then here's the execution, but there's a whole lot of stuff in between that gets there. There's a whole lot of iteration that it takes to get there, right? You know, there are so many projects I've done in the past where it's messy, messy, messy, messy, ugly, ugly, ugly and you're thinking this is going to fail, this is going to fail, this is going to fail and then, you know, it's like if you've ever done a house remodel. What is it? 80% of the work happens in the last 20%—80% of the improvement happens in the last 10 or 15% of the work, right? So there's a whole lot of messiness in there. And, you know, the other part of this is that I've spent a long part of my career as an endurance athlete and an endurance cycling coach and that's—you're just not going to go from slow and out of shape to fast overnight. You're going to have to deal with a lot of pain and a lot of discomfort and a lot of: I'm not worth it, I'm—or I'm not good enough self-talk in between, right? I used to—I remember when I came back into competitive cycling, there was always these point on 100 mile rides where it was the depression dip where it would be mile 60, you know, you're crushing it up to mile 60, and then mile 60 to 75 turns into the misery miles. The misery miles. And so, you know, I started to—when I started realizing that in myself, as I've- I had to find a different way to appreciate the misery miles. I have to think about a different thing. So, yeah, I think we do a poor job of defining what winning is. You have to chop that up and chop it up. Now, so I think sometimes it is worth throwing ideas out or at least putting them aside and saying: I'm not ready to have this conversation or it's not right. I need to give it—I need to step away from it so that it gets its own breath and its own oxygen and maybe I can come back to it in a different way. I mean I've got like a gazillion Google Docs of ideas, right? Doesn't mean I'm going to get to them, doesn't mean they're worth pursuing, or it may be the idea the way we're thinking about how it has to be—the expectation that we apply to it—is actually not the proper application for what the idea is going to be.
Dave Delaney: And do you find like one thing I- you know, I have so many like started journals over the years where the first few pages are filled and then that and then I move on to a new journal and write a few more pages in that one and it's kind of the equivalent in a and analog way of of your multiple, you know, Google Docs and I also have like thousands of Google Docs where it's harder with Google Docs because you can't- now with AI it's- it's helpful um because you can start kind of going through all that- all that content to find those ideas that you wrote. Um, often times part of my own frustration through my own career is going back through those old journals and seeing like: oh my god, I was writing the same thing to myself like 10, 20 years ago like: do this and this and this, and I just didn't get around to it or- or whatever. But of course, you know, understanding that those journals were written primarily before I had a- ADHD diagnosis and understood um why things are sometimes challenging and, you know, the executive function um limitation sometimes and- and also just giving myself grace so I can like laugh at the journals now, you know.
Bryan Yates: Can I ask you a question?
Dave Delaney: Please, yeah, please.
Bryan Yates: Yeah, what did you expect getting a new journal- what problem did you expect a new journal was going to solve for you?
Dave Delaney: Yeah, it's a go- it's a good question. Um, it's kind of twofold. I think one, getting a new journal means like it's fresh, you can start from scratch. Sometimes I would like start a journal that was just uh like I would write on the first page: this is dedicated to project X, whatever that might be. Um, but then over time project X would fade away into the- into the ether and I would then think like: okay and then I would be writing in the journal about like, you know, whatever else and I'd be like: well I really should start a new journal because now it's not um- and sometimes it wasn't even that conscious. It was just like: ah, let me just start a new one, this one's too- too busy. I think part of it too is- is maybe the fear of looking back at the- at the journal because you know you didn't do a lot of those ideas and so maybe it's partly um self-doubt or maybe um imposter syndrome that kind of kicks in and- and certainly that is uh something that happens. So has that happened to you before do you find?
Bryan Yates: I never ever ever ever ever go back and look at old journals. Ever. Ever. Ever. In fact when I start them, I start them with the intention that I'm going to write and then I'm going to burn it at the end. Except for I've got one or two journals around some points in my life that were really important that I want to keep around and memorialize at some point I'll burn those, but I never use journals like that. For me the journal is the process to write out ideas, to write out the- to physically- it's the workout. It's the: I need to work this energy out inside out and it's that putting pen to paper. But the expectation—you're putting a lot of expectation on your journal. I put the only expectation on my journals that I'm going to destroy it. And if there's a page that I want, I'll cut the page out. Or if it's something that I need to reference I'd rather put it on a yellow page—a yellow pad—than a journal.
Dave Delaney: That's interesting too like Julia Cameron in The Artist's Way book that I- I'm a fan of, she wrote about morning pages where you write three uh legal pages or yellow pad pages or journal of just garbage, like whatever comes out of your head and in your hand um first thing in the morning and the idea as a writer or creator is to just to do that every day and just basically blow the cobwebs off your head so that then the- then you can continue writing with more clarity on whatever it is. So it's kind of like just te- it's kind of like getting on the bike and going out just paddling a little bit, you know, um and downhill too, right? It's the warm-up. You're right. It's- it's- it's a 30-minute warm-up, right? Like you need a warm-up and you gotta warm up to blow the cobwebs out and I think that's right. And so in your case, it sounds to me like you're putting way too much pressure on expectation on what the journal's supposed to accomplish and basically take the- take the piss out of it and go: I'm just going to destroy you. I just need to write and that's the process. And whatever idea is cool, I'm going to move that over to a yellow pad and then I'm going to move it over to Google Doc, but—
Dave Delaney: I do find some value, sorry to interrupt. I do find some value in because I have kept most of my old- maybe all of them- and I have gone through- like when I met my wife in Ireland for example. And- and but other stuff where- like I lived in Ireland for a couple years and I met my wife there as I said and, you know, it was a great time, so many friends and all this stuff. But when I go back through my journal on- like I was miserable so much of that time. I was depressed, I was drinking too much- um go figure, I went to Ireland to sober up, that's like the worst idea ever. Um, and- uh- but it was inter- it was interesting, it's interesting because now even without the diagnosis um going back through my old journals I realize just how far I've come. In a way it's like, you know, there were times when I was just like: maybe not suicidal but certainly like: I don't even know what to do next, and give up on whatever. And going back through the journals it's like: oh wow, like look how far I've come. Um, so I don't know. Yeah, yeah, but I can see where you're coming from with like: yeah, just- I like the idea of- of starting it with the intention of just burning it. Or or not, maybe you- you write the next you know novel and you're like: oh shit, this is worth keeping. Um, but at least with the not with that kind of pressure though. I do like the idea of like writing with the intention of just destroying it after and whether you do or you don't it doesn't really matter. Um, I'll also add that-
Bryan Yates: It's the starting expectation, right? It's the- that's the starting intention. And, you know, I think a lot of people will start their journals with the intention of: oh my god, someone's going to find this in the future and find out what a genius I am. Right, right, right. No, no, it's not going to happen. So let's just write it and burn it.
Dave Delaney: Well I did have this realization a long time ago and I posted it on social like years ago and I basically said: your journal's not your diary. And it was like this revelation that like a diary and a journal are two different things and often I would treat my journal as sort of a diary. When in actuality if you treat it like a docu- like a book or document that you just spit out anything you want, you can write out a recipe or like directions to something or a note off the top of your head or a quote. Um, instead of just um strictly writing like the date and the passage of your deep intellect that day or whatever. Um, so when I had that thought I was just like: oh yeah, they're different things, like a journal's like whatever. But—
Bryan Yates: I mean don't get me wrong I would love like I- I love it when I'll watch a documentary and someone talks about how John Adams wrote in his- this is what we got from John Adams's diary. Like sure, we would all love to sound that great. I mean it's amazing, but— Yeah, right. Yeah, right. It just doesn't happen, it's not, right? And um plus, you know, they only had quill and paper then. They don't have computer and- and phone and 10,000 other ways to track what's going on.
Dave Delaney: Yeah, yeah. But you- and- and as far as like writing goes and things too I- I'd be curious to find out like through your work with the- with Steven Spielberg you had a time working for his- is it the- the Shoah Foundation? Is that right?
Bryan Yates: Yeah, Shoah Foundation. Yeah.
Dave Delaney: Yeah, and you, you know, you documented three years 4,000 hours my understanding of- of Holocaust survival testimonial- testimonials which- I can't imagine what that experience must have been like but- yeah, did that- what did that experience kind of leave you with? What are- what are some of the thoughts that- that came from- from that experience?
Bryan Yates: I should probably set the scene a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was in the mid-90s we had started a foundation from- profits from Schindler's List. Right. And this was kind of early internet, we weren't even search engines at the time and we were going out and collecting 50,000 hours of video Holocaust survivor interviews. Right. And then they would come in in tape and they'd get digitized and we had a room full of old grad students who would catalog and listen to the testimonies, catalog, keyword, describe, explain what's going on. Um, phenomenal experience. It was the most unique job I'll ever have. Yeah, yeah. Because I used to do it at the—when I first did it we had so many testimonies, we had cataloging shifts during a day shift and a night shift, so when I first started I was working from like, you know, 4:00 in the afternoon until 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning because we were trying to get through so many of these. And um so it was a phenomenal experience, right? You got to hear all of these stories. And it was 30 years ago and I wish, you know, I wish that I could carry some of those specific stories with me, but time fades, right? And so just what- what I remember though was more of the muscle that I built, right? This was- this was the heart of oral history. This wasn't- this wasn't necessarily archival history, this was oral history, right? We're building an archive of oral history. Mhmm. And so for me, the muscle that it really trained, the skill set that it trained, was couple—there were a couple of things. But the most important one that carries with me from a coaching standpoint is generative listening. Hmm. And what- what I mean- generative listening is usually co-creating and asking questions and working with someone to have this inquiry back and forth to get to a deeper level of what's going on, right? Right. And it's a creative process. So this was—at the foundation it wasn't so much like because I was listening to a recording there wasn't actually a series of questions going back and forth but what you learn to listen for in my case is to listen very attentively, very clearly, very closely to not only what's being said, but what's being un- what's being said underneath or what's being specifically avoided say, right? Like you come co- they'll come close to saying something but then it's almost like an ellipsis—dot dot dot, right? And it's like: ooh, there's the trailing thought. What's in the trailing thought? Not saying we were applying meaning to what was in the trailing thought but it was definitely a skill set for me of listening to what's in the trailing thought for for people I'm working with.
Dave Delaney: Do you find part of that is in the- and just to not to- to- to talk- something that- that came from my research and understanding of- of the work that you do on that project specifically- and also having read- reread- Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning, I reread that just like a couple years ago, maybe three- two, three years ago. And and that book, for anyone who hasn't read it, I highly highly recommend you do because- you know, Viktor Frankl created- uh I believe it's called logos therapy or— Logos therapy. Yeah. Logotherapy, logos. Yeah. Logotherapy, yeah. And so half the book is sort of him uh describing the- this type of psychology but the other half and the whole book was written as he was a- a concentration camp um survivor ultimately but a person in the- in concentration camps and having lost his- his family, his wife and friends and so on- um and describing that in the book as well. It- that book was really- I found especially given October 7th when we got to this point where the hostages had been gone for so long. It was- having read that book I realized like: holy cli- like there was almost like a- a thought not to like give up or anything or not to like: just you know they're gone now, or even if they are rescued they're going to be so um disturbed for the rest of their lives- um that it was such an interesting thought to me because and- and this feeling that, you know, had it not- like had Viktor Frankl not survived, um he wouldn't have been able to develop this- um form of psychology that- that many practicing psychiatrists and psychologists and things use today and benefit from. And so in a sense like he went through hell as many did um but like good came from that, right? Not to say you know despite that I should say. Sure. So in a sense not to- I don't know where I'm going with this um- this- this thinking but um I guess in a sense like we all sort of face- not to compare at all um- not- not at all of course because yeah my problems are- are nothing compared to- to the problems of- of people in that situation. Um, but it does make give you context and it does make you realize like the journals, like there's a light- at- hopefully will be a light at the end of the tunnel and if you don't- if you give up on- on hope for that light- um that's- that's not a good situation, right? So are there- are there steps you work with through with your clients on kind of keeping them keeping the momentum going and keeping them in a positive sort of way? You know, obviously we're not therapists or doctors, but I mean when you're coaching um and coaching isn't therapy of course, but it is- I mean you're dealing with people who are struggling in some way or another and- and trying to make sense of their challenge. So um yeah what are- what are your thoughts on that?
Bryan Yates: Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm an- I'm a historian at heart, right? So a lot of the times for when we get stalled, part of the reason we get stalled psychologically is because we've become very narrowly focused and very myopic. Or we're trying to take too much into the frame and make sense of everything in the frame, right? You know my wife, the way my wife takes photos, she's like: okay hold on, I gotta back up and take care of- I gotta take everything. It was like: why? Why? Just like there's one detail that's super important, that's- but you're trying to tell this whole story and now you're not going to be able to tell anything. If we're looking at everything, we're looking at nothing. Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. So— So it's where we focus on the right things and, you know, you said compare a lot and I don't care about compare or not compare. I mean I think that everyone's got their problems that are- that are theirs. Not necessarily unique. Um, we're not terminally unique. Like also I'm a recovering alcoholic and I always say like we're not terminally unique, right? We want to believe that we're terminally unique and terminally special, but we're just not, right? And so part of the reason that group meetings work in that context is for us to get perspective on your circumstances are different than my circumstances but we felt the same thing. The emotion was the same and we connect at the emotional level and that's what's really important, right? Hmm. So it's very easy for us to say so-and-so's life doesn't apply because it didn't have the same circumstances as mine, which is fundamentally untrue. And the reason Viktor Frankl works is because you can a—it's- it's beautifully brilliantly written and it's a very emotionally aspirational book in some ways to be able to have his sense of impermanence, his sense of detachment, his sense of perspective. So, yes, applying perspective is- is definitely part of that but also situating it within someone's life and their own history, right? Like so I'm very interested in someone's- a client's history. Mhmm. Not just the big plot points but, you know, how they think. I'm really interested in how people think. Not what they think—like the content I don't really care about—it's like how they construct ideas and how those ideas are- are shaped because that's where the trouble ends up, right? That's where we end up telling ourselves the internal stories, right? It's because of the way we've been thinking. And as a coach you're right, we are not therapists. I am not a therapist, I don't play in the therapy lane whatsoever. I'm definitely- I got my coaching credentials by coaching competitive cyclists. So I've ridden my bike like 150,000 miles and a much of those are—many of those are either pushing people uphill or chasing people who were faster than me or pulling people in the wind, right? So very physically moving people from point A to point B and seeing what happens to them in that process. So mine is a very—you know I- I understand for me that coaching is a very embodied experience, right? It's like coaching doesn't happen in the head, it happens in the heart and the gut for me and it's what- and so I'm very—like I'm in the momentum business, right? It's I'm in the- I'm in the self-trust business. I'm in rewiring, finger quoting this, muscle memory business, right? And by muscle memory I mean like what are the mental muscles that someone's using and how do we use them differently? So that's the business I'm in and it's always about forward looking. I love it when go- when clients come back- come to me and they'll say: I just want to get back to. I just want to get back to. I'm like: we're not getting back to anything. We're going over there. Like you're not getting back to anything. We're going forward. Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, you're not getting back to nothing. Like stop thinking- we're going over there. Whatever that looks like, that's where we're going. This bike does not have a reverse gear. Exactly. Yeah, right. Yeah. And helping your clients go wee down a hill as opposed to always up- as- a- right? Right, right, right. Yeah, I used to ride my- not I- never been a cyclist person, but I would ride my bike everywhere in Toronto where, you know, I was born and raised downtown and laugh at all the people stuck in gridlock getting around the city. But of course watching out for that door prize, knowing- knowing that like if a car is parked, look especially in the winter if the exhaust is coming out you know the engine's running which means it could pull out. You're looking for tires if they're pointing to the left you know they may pull out. Looking for a head in the car. Looking for like feet under buses um- or or any high vehicle so that somebody might step- not step out and yeah, you- you learn once with a face plant and um- yeah, that's a good- that's a good way to learn lessons too. Um, I've read about or I've heard about uh some of your approach around inspa- inspired by Rick Rubin, is that right? Yeah. Tell me- tell me about what you have taken from um Rick Rubin's way. I mean I loved- I loved his book. In fact I bought his audiobook first, no- yes, I bought his audiobook first, no- Yes, I bought his audiobook first. And of course Rick Rubin has just such an incredible voice and you would hope the audiobook would be well produced given the fact that it is Rick Rubin um who has produced like a- you know, so many uh best-selling songs and so forth and albums. Um, yes, and so I had to buy the book- the physical book after listening to it because I just- there was so much and I wanted- usually I'll- you know, I'll write up- I'll scratch all sorts of notes in books when I'm reading them so I went back to- to get the physical book. So uh yeah tell me about how that you were like inspired or or how you- yeah what that connection is to the Rick Rubin sort of approach.
Bryan Yates: I mean I've always been a- I've always been a keen music listener, consumer and fan and a lot of my early coaching career was actually working with a lot of musicians that you would know of if I said the name and a lot of um and band managers and people who were agents for musicians, right? And so I've just—you know you can't race bikes in Los Angeles or be in the performance fitness business in Los Angeles, which I don't—I don't do any of the physical coaching anymore. It's all—it's all executive style coaching these days. But you can't like race bikes in Los Angeles without, you know, running into a professional musician. Right, sure. So I've always—I've spent a lot—my wife is in the music industry for 10 years or more than that actually. So I've been around musicians for god forever. So I always love the role of the producer. Again, coming back to the producer thing, right? I always love the role of the producer. And one of my ideas is that everyone I work with has some creative energy in them. They've got a—let's quote-unquote song in them, right? They've got a version of the song that's waiting and that they've been burying—it's the thing that makes them brilliant and they've been burying burying it under beliefs, under chasing someone else's idea of success, under trying to look marketable, under trying to be as commercial as possible. And then they end up sounding like crap. They end up sounding boring and unoriginal and uninspired and, you know, the- most of us are—you can walk- go around LinkedIn and go: most people are deathly afraid of not sounding original but their default is to sound unoriginal. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. That's a great point. Yeah. Because that's where safety is, right? That's- that's where their idea of safety is. And then they just end up fading away into the- into the background, right? And, you know, I say this all the time like top 40 music isn't necessarily good, it's just popular and there's a difference, right? Sure, yeah. So so for me that concept is I believe Dave's got a great song in him—a version of Dave that is not commercial, that is totally viable, completely original, and let's find that. Let's find those beats and bring those beats out, right? And stop doing things that stop approaching our leadership, stop approaching our communication, stop approaching how we interact in a completely, you know, bland anodyne way. It's like: let's get the part that let's unbury your brilliance. So, yeah, so I think that, you know, Rick Rubin has a very similar take. You watch him in action and found people who've worked with Rick Rubin and it can be a very painstaking process where it goes on because he doesn't have any, you know, he doesn't actually have any musical talent. He has taste and he has a- a sense of hearing and he has a sense of communicating and I don't have any musical talent either. I also have taste and I know when someone sounds like—when it doesn't sound like them. They sound like a cheap cover band, right? Right, yeah, sure. As like: I don't want you to sound like a cover band. There's nothing sexy in sounding like a cover band because you're only good enough to play in a bar to drunk people and I want you to play in bigger arenas. So that—that is my Rick Rubin principle. That is my record producer principle of like: let's get let's get that version of brilliance of that song out of you. And, you know—
Dave Delaney: Give me—yeah. Sorry I didn't—it's okay. ADHD we interrupt. Part of the—part of the challenge. Well, I—I won't shut up so I need you to actually—I need—I need you to use your ADHD for good. Yeah, right. Gong! I'm bored, Bryan, gong! No, no, no. Not at all. Not at all. But I was thinking yeah with the—like so what—like what's an example of somebody that you've worked with—of course you don't have to name names or anything—but like what—what did that process look like in the sense of whether it was somebody with ADHD or somebody who was simply just really stuck in their career—like point for point maybe—can you walk me through some of those steps—um that—that you've done to help somebody—um so that—that might inspire—um beyond giving you a shout of course, which we'll talk about at the end—um some steps that people can do right now.
Bryan Yates: Let's give you two examples. 'Cause I work with two kinds of people. Two kinds of leaders. One is they own and lead a small business which could be a business of one. All—everyone I work with serves other people in creative powerful ways. That's kind of what makes them insanely capable. So meaning they could manage bands, they could manage artists, they could uh have PR and marketing firms, they could be wealth managers, whatever it is, their job is serving others in creative powerful ways. The other people are um, you know, usually senior director to SVP level in big corporations, like they're compressed in that middle from the bottom and the top, right? Right, sure. So kind of they're leaders but kind of in um different ways and with different demands. So, you know, there's one I remember uh someone who owned a PR and marketing firm of about um eight or nine people. They were working with small businesses um and they also happened to work, you know, adjacent to local tourism in a particular region. And the owner was having—was struggling with some things with the team leadership and getting the team on board certain things. And really, you know, was just burning themselves out. And part of those kinds of service businesses, there's just a lot of production grind. You run from one production to the next to the next and there isn't a lot of pause and a time to put brea—some fresh air into it. And this so basically they'd come to the point where they were saying: I just want to fire myself from my own business because this isn't this isn't working anymore. So we worked with—I worked with the—the owner and the team members and started looking at what was going on and they were running from production to production to production and they weren't actually taking into account the kind of impact that they made. An organization that's actually helped sponsor one of my own events, right? So what they do is really important work and what they do is they just kept thinking: oh, we're just doing ad—we're doing campaigns and PR. It's like: that's not what you're doing. That's not what you're doing at all. That's the execution of what you're doing. What you're doing is actually helping these small businesses, which are often family-owned, make money. Your—what you're doing is impacting their bottom line in a very tangible way. What you're doing is allowing them to be creative and serve the peo—serve their clients and show up in ways that they want to show up. That's what you're doing. So we had to inject some new energy into the team and what that meant was shift their perspective, right? They were looking at it this way, we had to go over here and look at it from this angle and over here and look at it from this angle and up here and look at it from that angle and have a better understanding of what their impact was. Hmm. So that they could start moving from just going through the motions to actually putting some love into it. They had sort of stopped putting love and soul into it and I needed them to put their soul into it. But you can't put your soul into it until you start figuring out what is it we're actually doing here, right? Let's actually have a mission that makes sense. And then we can start working on the—the fundamental teamwork challenges that were there. But first it was: let's inject this with some proper tailwind.
Dave Delaney: I think that's something that I have struggle with—I can't speak for other ADHDers, but I believe this may be common of course I'm not a doctor. But um—at least for my personal experience, a lot of times yeah, I would be moving a mile a minute and never slowing down enough to celebrate the wins. I would like close a new client, get the money in the bank—or or not even celebrate that until the money actually appeared 'cause I never believed it—the client would close until I actually saw the money in the bank, right? Well that's reasonable, actually that's reasonable. Yeah, well that is reasonable, yeah. But even then it was: okay, you know, what am I going to do next to—to get more money in the bank. And and it wasn't like a: boy, I'm going to make as much money as possible, but it's more like, you know, oh I have two kids in college, it'd be good to help them pay for that, you know, little things like that. Um, so—
Bryan Yates: Listen, you can't—if you've ever been an endurance athlete—two things I want to talk about. But if you've ever been an endurance athlete—there's a lot of I think—I think there's a lot of Asperger's and—and ADHD in—in avid cyclists and—and competitive cyclists and the fact that we've also become so much more wrapped up in little computers on our handlebars and measuring all the data around us has made us not terribly sociable and sort of missing—missing the point. But I've got quite a few friends who are professional cyclists who have been at the big levels and one thing you see at every single level is that competitive athletes can treat recovery like punishment and not part of the process. Hmm. And so the idea of the pause will terrify them. What if my friends are getting faster? What if I lose my edge? What if it's harder to come back? What if I decide I don't want to come back? What if? What if? What if? And that's all mental work because strength because, you know, the- the overload happens in the training, the strength actually happens in the recovery, right? You cannot—you cannot run a marathon a day every single day, which is what you're talking about, right? You're trying to run a marathon a day and it's just physically impossible. And cognitive—and you don't even know, like you don't even know you've crossed the—the finish line in that—in that metaphor or that example, right? Like I'm running a marathon every day as you're saying and I'm getting the dopamine from running and I'm feeling good about it and it's a nice day and people are throwing water at me and all the good things. But yeah, it's a—it's a good example because yeah I—I don't remember if I've crossed the—the finish line, I just know that I need to start running again. Maybe I'm in a different city and I'm like: oh, that's weird. But anyway, keep running. That's right. Easy solution. Easy solution. Yeah, right. Easy solution. Pick a day this month, call it the 15th of—oh well, no, it's almost the 15th. Call it the 20th and—and then think about a year ago. One year ago. What is different? And your mind is going to say nothing's different, nothing's different, everything's still the—particularly if you're struggle—but that's not true. That's fundamentally not true. How many podcasts have you completed this year? How many conversations did you have? How many new people did you meet? How many how many times did you do something different that you hadn't done? And then what's—what's different from two years before that and before that? And then have a—give yourself an inventory day where you take what's—what's structurally different from now and—
Dave Delaney: Assuming it has—assuming it has gotten better, right? Sure. Yeah, assuming it has. But you have to—you gotta take inventory of: how is it different exactly from one—and it's not something—it takes time to do it. You have to dedicate the time to do it to make a process and then you can find where—where things are not changed and then you can ask why, what's different about that. But I think that that's really one way to kind of figure it out, right? It's—it's how you measure growth in process and we measure growth in systems and process and just doing things better, right? There's a guy—so you—there was one other example when we talked about the way that we help someone. There was someone I was working with who was working in one of these big corporations at a director level and they'd been an entrepreneur and they'd done all kinds of other things and, you know, their entrepreneurship partnership had fallen apart, which happens, you know, I've had two business partnership divorces. And my friend took this job at this company and was really kind of dealing with, A, the—the shame of a partnership falling apart or the business not doing what they wanted it to and then B, kind of taking a job and and having to acknowledge that and was sort of living in both worlds of: I'm still the entrepreneur and I'm now I'm doing this. I'm like: you can't live in both worlds. You can only live in one—living in two worlds is killing you. It's pulling you apart. But you and had this, you know, fancy degree but the person he was working for was really micromanaging him and keeping him in a box and my friend kept going: am I going to be stuck here? Like: no, you're not going to be stuck here, but we have to change how you're operating and what your expectations are. And he would get into these meetings and he would either shut down and not say anything and he's like: I'm just going to listen. Being like the small in-confident voice in the room where this is a person who I knew was super creative, was super creative, super thoughtful, super curious, but once they got in the room, they were shutting themselves down. I said: listen, own your insecurity. Just say: listen, I'm—but don't not talk. Not talking is actually keeping you small. I get if even if it means: hey, I'm kind of new, so I'm going to listen and I'm going to come back in the end with questions. Even if you change tactically how you're you're going to communicate, then come back at the end with questions, then that's fine. Or treat every conversation as an opportunity to be curious. Not to go into it saying this is a do or die conversation. Maybe I won't get the job so put all of that aside. Put all of that aside. Like: how do you create the best possible conversation that you can in the moment and make sure that everyone in the conversation feels creative and seen and heard. Then it changes your energy.
Dave Delaney: No, you're up—yeah. Because then you see the results. Yeah. And then—and then—my friend started getting interview options at—at much higher levels because they were asking better questions better. Yeah, for sure. I'm watching the time and I know time is running—flying by and I have so many other questions and things to ask you—and—um—so—um—before we—before we wrap up, I do—I am curious like do you have—I mentioned earlier and I'm sure listeners will be like: what's the over and next tool—um that I—I mentioned? Do you want to like share a little bit about that just to—to fill people in? I know it's for Norman Lear, right? Yeah, I just used this on someone the other day. I love this. All right, let's set the stage. I'm going to say a name: Norman Lear. And some of you're going to go: I know who Norman Lear is, and some of you're going to say: who the hell is that? Norman Lear was one of the most important American television producers, like in- produced like these groundbreaking shows in the 70s—All in the Family, the Jeffersons, many others, right? He's produced I think he's produced film and—and theater as well. He was of that set of like the Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner set of this old group of—of old dudes who were just super creative. Uh maybe 10, 12 years ago at the age of 94 he was out touring another book, another memoir, right? So let's just let that land, at 94 he's book touring another memoir, right? I'm still waiting for Spaceballs 2 from Mel Brooks, so yeah. Um, yeah, yeah, right. A great documentary, by the way, for folks to check out about Mel Brooks from Judd Apatow. But I digress. Go ahead, sorry. Um, and uh—so I heard this interview with Norman Lear and I—probably on NPR and the interviewer said: Mr. Lear, to what do you attribute your per—your professional and creative longevity? Hmm. And he paused and thought for a moment—which by the way we should all pause and think for a moment, don't rush in, that's that's your first tip, pause. Yeah. Um, he said: knowing the meaning of two words, "over" and "next". Okay. Right, so that's the tool. What are you outgrowing? If you're outgrowing, let's outgrow it. Let's get—let's just get to the outgrowing part and go to the next thing because you can't keep trying to run fast by or move fast or ride fast by packing all this other stuff on, right? This dovetails into another idea—a cycling idea of like pack light, travel far. And we, as we get older, continue to try to pack everything and carry everything forward and you know what, you—we can't live on both sides of the doorway, right? You can't keep one—one foot on one side and another fro—side foot in front. You gotta—we have to walk through the door. So that's the over and next thing is you gotta be—
Dave Delaney: Assuming you're just starting, like what if you're just starting running and you don't know, like maybe it's your first mile? How do you know then? But yeah, how do you know then that you've finished that, you know? 'Cause that's one thing I have found certainly time blindness runs into this a little bit with ADHDers. Again speaking for myself though. And those journals, even, you know, little callback there. But like 10 years can pass and does and it's like: holy crap, it's been 10 years since I've been like starting this marathon and I don't even know, like I haven't had time in those 10 years even after the first time I crossed a finish line, I don't remember what that line was or crossing it and I'm still not slowing down enough to like—and I'm sort of speaking putting myself in the shoes of the listener, right, who—who maybe feeling these challenges—um are there—are there like—easy solution. Easy solution. Easy solution. Yeah, right. Easy solution. Pick a day this month, call it the 15th of—oh well, no, it's almost the 15th. Call it the 20th and—and then think about a year ago. One year ago. What is different? And your mind is going to say nothing's different, nothing's different, everything's still the—particularly if you're struggle—but that's not true. That's fundamentally not true.
Dave Delaney: But I was thinking yeah with the—like so what—like what's an example of somebody that you've worked with—of course you don't have to name names or anything—but like what—what did that process look like in the sense of whether it was somebody with ADHD or somebody who was simply just really stuck in their career—like point for point maybe—can you walk me through some of those steps—um that—that you've done to help somebody—um so that—that might inspire—um beyond giving you a shout of course, which we'll talk about at the end—um some steps that people can do right now.
Bryan Yates: Let's give you two examples. 'Cause I work with two kinds of people. Two kinds of leaders. One is they own and lead a small business which could be a business of one. All—everyone I work with serves other people in creative powerful ways. That's kind of what makes them insanely capable. So meaning they could manage bands, they could manage artists, they could uh have PR and marketing firms, they could be wealth managers, whatever it is, their job is serving others in creative powerful ways. The other people are um, you know, usually senior director to SVP level in big corporations, like they're compressed in that middle from the bottom and the top, right? Right, sure. So kind of they're leaders but kind of in um different ways and with different demands. So, you know, there's one I remember uh someone who owned a PR and marketing firm of about um eight or nine people. They were working with small businesses um and they also happened to work, you know, adjacent to local tourism in a particular region. And the owner was having—was struggling with some things with the team leadership and getting the team on board certain things. And really, you know, was just burning themselves out. And part of those kinds of service businesses, there's just a lot of production grind. You run from one production to the next to the next and there isn't a lot of pause and a time to put brea—some fresh air into it. And this so basically they'd come to the point where they were saying: I just want to fire myself from my own business because this isn't this isn't working anymore. So we worked with—I worked with the—the owner and the team members and started looking at what was going on and they were running from production to production to production and they weren't actually taking into account the kind of impact that they made. An organization that's actually helped sponsor one of my own events, right? So what they do is really important work and what they do is they just kept thinking: oh, we're just doing ad—we're doing campaigns and PR. It's like: that's not what you're doing. That's not what you're doing at all. That's the execution of what you're doing. What you're doing is actually helping these small businesses, which are often family-owned, make money. Your—what you're doing is impacting their bottom line in a very tangible way. What you're doing is allowing them to be creative and serve the peo—serve their clients and show up in ways that they want to show up. That's what you're doing. So we had to inject some new energy into the team and what that meant was shift their perspective, right? They were looking at it this way, we had to go over here and look at it from this angle and over here and look at it from this angle and up here and look at it from that angle and have a better understanding of what their impact was. Hmm. So that they could start moving from just going through the motions to actually putting some love into it. They had sort of stopped putting love and soul into it and I needed them to put their soul into it. But you can't put your soul into it until you start figuring out what is it we're actually doing here, right? Let's actually have a mission that makes sense. And then we can start working on the—the fundamental teamwork challenges that were there. But first it was: let's inject this with some proper tailwind.
Dave Delaney: Give me—yeah. Sorry I didn't—it's okay. ADHD we interrupt. Well, I—I won't shut up so I need you to actually—I need—I need you to use your ADHD for good. Yeah, right. Gong! I'm bored, Bryan, gong! No, no, no. Not at all. Not at all. But I was thinking yeah with the—like so what—like what's an example of somebody that you've worked with—of course you don't have to name names or anything—but like what—what did that process look like in the sense of whether it was somebody with ADHD or somebody who was simply just really stuck in their career—like point for point maybe—can you walk me through some of those steps—um that—that you've done to help somebody—um so that—that might inspire—um beyond giving you a shout of course, which we'll talk about at the end—um some steps that people can do right now.
Bryan Yates: Let's give you two examples. 'Cause I work with two kinds of people. Two kinds of leaders. One is they own and lead a small business which could be a business of one. All—everyone I work with serves other people in creative powerful ways. That's kind of what makes them insanely capable. So meaning they could manage bands, they could manage artists, they could uh have PR and marketing firms, they could be wealth managers, whatever it is, their job is serving others in creative powerful ways. The other people are um, you know, usually senior director to SVP level in big corporations, like they're compressed in that middle from the bottom and the top, right? Right, sure. So kind of they're leaders but kind of in um different ways and with different demands. So, you know, there's one I remember uh someone who owned a PR and marketing firm of about um eight or nine people. They were working with small businesses um and they also happened to work, you know, adjacent to local tourism in a particular region. And the owner was having—was struggling with some things with the team leadership and getting the team on board certain things. And really, you know, was just burning themselves out. And part of those kinds of service businesses, there's just a lot of production grind. You run from one production to the next to the next and there isn't a lot of pause and a time to put brea—some fresh air into it. And this so basically they'd come to the point where they were saying: I just want to fire myself from my own business because this isn't this isn't working anymore. So we worked with—I worked with the—the owner and the team members and started looking at what was going on and they were running from production to production to production and they weren't actually taking into account the kind of impact that they made. An organization that's actually helped sponsor one of my own events, right? So what they do is really important work and what they do is they just kept thinking: oh, we're just doing ad—we're doing campaigns and PR. It's like: that's not what you're doing. That's not what you're doing at all. That's the execution of what you're doing. What you're doing is actually helping these small businesses, which are often family-owned, make money. Your—what you're doing is impacting their bottom line in a very tangible way. What you're doing is allowing them to be creative and serve the peo—serve their clients and show up in ways that they want to show up. That's what you're doing. So we had to inject some new energy into the team and what that meant was shift their perspective, right? They were looking at it this way, we had to go over here and look at it from this angle and over here and look at it from this angle and up here and look at it from that angle and have a better understanding of what their impact was. Hmm. So that they could start moving from just going through the motions to actually putting some love into it. They had sort of stopped putting love and soul into it and I needed them to put their soul into it. But you can't put your soul into it until you start figuring out what is it we're actually doing here, right? Let's actually have a mission that makes sense. And then we can start working on the—the fundamental teamwork challenges that were there. But first it was: let's inject this with some proper tailwind.
Dave Delaney: Give me—yeah. Sorry I didn't—it's okay. ADHD we interrupt. Part of the—part of the challenge. Gong! I'm bored, Bryan, gong! No, no, no. Not at all. Not at all. But I was thinking yeah with the—like so what—like what's an example of somebody that you've worked with—of course you don't have to name names or anything—but like what—what did that process look like in the sense of whether it was somebody with ADHD or somebody who was simply just really stuck in their career—like point for point maybe—can you walk me through some of those steps—um that—that you've done to help somebody—um so that—that might inspire—um beyond giving you a shout of course, which we'll talk about at the end—um some steps that people can do right now.
Bryan Yates: Let's give you two examples. 'Cause I work with two kinds of people. Two kinds of leaders. One is they own and lead a small business which could be a business of one. All—everyone I work with serves other people in creative powerful ways. That's kind of what makes them insanely capable. So meaning they could manage bands, they could manage artists, they could uh have PR and marketing firms, they could be wealth managers, whatever it is, their job is serving others in creative powerful ways. The other people are um, you know, usually senior director to SVP level in big corporations, like they're compressed in that middle from the bottom and the top, right? Right, sure. So kind of they're leaders but kind of in um different ways and with different demands. So, you know, there's one I remember uh someone who owned a PR and marketing firm of about um eight or nine people. They were working with small businesses um and they also happened to work, you know, adjacent to local tourism in a particular region. And the owner was having—was struggling with some things with the team leadership and getting the team on board certain things. And really, you know, was just burning themselves out. And part of those kinds of service businesses, there's just a lot of production grind. You run from one production to the next to the next and there isn't a lot of pause and a time to put brea—some fresh air into it. And this so basically they'd come to the point where they were saying: I just want to fire myself from my own business because this isn't this isn't working anymore. So we worked with—I worked with the—the owner and the team members and started looking at what was going on and they were running from production to production to production and they weren't actually taking into account the kind of impact that they made. An organization that's actually helped sponsor one of my own events, right? So what they do is really important work and what they do is they just kept thinking: oh, we're just doing ad—we're doing campaigns and PR. It's like: that's not what you're doing. That's not what you're doing at all. That's the execution of what you're doing. What you're doing is actually helping these small businesses, which are often family-owned, make money. Your—what you're doing is impacting their bottom line in a very tangible way. What you're doing is allowing them to be creative and serve the peo—serve their clients and show up in ways that they want to show up. That's what you're doing. So we had to inject some new energy into the team and what that meant was shift their perspective, right? They were looking at it this way, we had to go over here and look at it from this angle and over here and look at it from this angle and up here and look at it from that angle and have a better understanding of what their impact was. Hmm. So that they could start moving from just going through the motions to actually putting some love into it. They had sort of stopped putting love and soul into it and I needed them to put their soul into it. But you can't put your soul into it until you start figuring out what is it we're actually doing here, right? Let's actually have a mission that makes sense. And then we can start working on the—the fundamental teamwork challenges that were there. But first it was: let's inject this with some proper tailwind.
Dave Delaney: I mentioned earlier and I'm sure listeners will be like: what's the over and next tool—um that I—I mentioned? Do you want to like share a little bit about that just to—to fill people in? I know it's for Norman Lear, right? Yeah, I just used this on someone the other day. I love this. All right, let's set the stage. I'm going to say a name: Norman Lear. And some of you're going to go: I know who Norman Lear is, and some of you're going to say: who the hell is that? Norman Lear was one of the most important American television producers, like in- produced like these groundbreaking shows in the 70s—All in the Family, the Jeffersons, many others, right? He's produced I think he's produced film and—and theater as well. He was of that set of like the Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner set of this old group of—of old dudes who were just super creative. Uh maybe 10, 12 years ago at the age of 94 he was out touring another book, another memoir, right? So let's just let that land, at 94 he's book touring another memoir, right? I'm still waiting for Spaceballs 2 from Mel Brooks, so yeah. Um, yeah, yeah, right. A great documentary, by the way, for folks to check out about Mel Brooks from Judd Apatow. But I digress. Go ahead, sorry. Um, and uh—so I heard this interview with Norman Lear and I—probably on NPR and the interviewer said: Mr. Lear, to what do you attribute your per—your professional and creative longevity? Hmm. And he paused and thought for a moment—which by the way we should all pause and think for a moment, don't rush in, that's that's your first tip, pause. Yeah. Um, he said: knowing the meaning of two words, "over" and "next". Okay. Right, so that's the tool. What are you outgrowing? If you're outgrowing, let's outgrow it. Let's get—let's just get to the outgrowing part and go to the next thing because you can't keep trying to run fast by or move fast or ride fast by packing all this other stuff on, right? This dovetails into another idea—a cycling idea of like pack light, travel far. And we, as we get older, continue to try to pack everything and carry everything forward and you know what, you—we can't live on both sides of the doorway, right? You can't keep one—one foot on one side and another fro—side foot in front. You gotta—we have to walk through the door. So that's the over and next thing is you gotta be—
Bryan Yates: So I love to connect, I don't ever pitch, so if you have questions, let's talk and I'm super, you know, I'm just super—keen to help people find momentum when they—when they should have it and they—when they could have it and they simply don't.
Dave Delaney: Yeah, well that's great. Thank you again for your time and insights today and I will make sure to include links to everything we talked about so that folks can—can get in contact and—and connect. So thanks, man! This has been great!
Bryan Yates: Thank you for having me on. It's been a real treat!
