PODCAST. How to Move from Middle Management to the Executive Suite with Katy McFee.

Episode Sponsored by: Futureforth.com. Book your complimentary ADHD-aware coaching session or book Dave Delaney as your next company or conference keynote speaker.

From the "Messy Middle" to the C-Suite: Leading with ADHD

In the latest episode of Wise Squirrels, host Dave Delaney speaks with Katy McFee, a former executive in the biotech and tech industries turned executive coach. Katy’s story is a masterclass in resilience, self-discovery, and the unconventional path to the top. Diagnosed with ADHD at age 43, Katy reveals how she climbed the corporate ladder while unknowingly fighting her own "operating system".

Why You Should Listen

If you’ve ever felt like you’re "winging it" while everyone else has a manual, this episode is for you. Whether you are a woman striving for your first VP role, a professional navigating a late-life ADHD diagnosis, or a leader looking to build more inclusive teams, Katy’s insights offer a roadmap for turning perceived "weaknesses" into strategic advantages.

Key Topics Discussed

1. The Paradox of the "Messy Middle"

Katy highlights a common trap for high-achievers: The Manager-to-Director Bottleneck.

The Struggle: In middle management, you are responsible for keeping track of everyone’s tasks a nightmare for executive functioning.

The Shift: Katy argues that becoming an executive actually helped her ADHD because it allowed her to delegate the "boring" administrative tasks (expense reports, travel booking) and focus entirely on high-level strategy and "connecting the dots."

2. Coaching the "Pleaser" Out of Leadership

As a coach for women, Katy dives deep into the social conditioning that holds female leaders back.

The "Good Girl" Trap: Many women get stuck because they are "doers," they say yes to every project and work the hardest.

The Solution: To reach the VP level, you must shift from tactical execution to strategic intention. Katy explains why "doing more" is often the very thing preventing you from being seen as a leader.

3. Navigating the Corporate World with ADHD

From being told she "moved too much" in meetings to forgetting to pay for parking, Katy’s journey is relatable and raw.

Coping vs. Thriving: She shares how she built decades of "hacks" before knowing they were ADHD coping mechanisms.

The Medication Journey: A candid discussion on the "eureka moment" myth and the importance of finding a lifestyle (exercise, meditation, and sobriety) that supports a neurodivergent brain.

How to Connect

Katy is on a mission to close the gender gap in senior leadership. You can find her daily leadership insights on LinkedIn or listen to her podcast, More Women Promoted, for bite-sized, actionable career advice.

• Transcription

  00:00:00 Katy: I'm Katy McFee. I'm a former executive turned exec coach, so that's what I do as well. I help women generally break through and land their first time VP roles.

  00:00:11 Dave: Nice. That's great. And how long have you been doing that and working in that space?

  00:00:16 : Yeah, so I'm a former exec myself. So I did eighteen years in corporate working in biotech and tech. And um, I started my business four years ago. Um, I always say like my journey to the top was not a straight line. It was like very, very all over the place. Um, I got stuck at a couple places in my career. I was always very ambitious, but I found myself getting stuck as a manager. Stuck as a director. Um, I had undiagnosed ADHD at the time as well. And I find that middle management for folks with ADHD can be particularly challenging. Um, but when I finally broke through to senior leadership, I realized lots of people get stuck in those same places. And so in this next chapter of my life, I really wanted to help people with that transition from manager to director to VP and beyond.

  00:01:04 Dave: Was it was it like a I mean, you you mentioned you had drive there, but I think sometimes with self-confidence and sort of imposter syndrome and these things that, you know, neurotypical people experience as well, but it's, you know, add a little fuel to the fire when you have ADHD, certainly undiagnosed and untreated. Um, and I, I'm speaking partly from my own experiences working when I worked for people, when I had jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, um, that I never did get to the senior levels that maybe I aspired to, partly because I just even didn't want to, or maybe I didn't feel like I could handle that much and maybe I couldn't have, I don't know.

  00:01:45 Katy: You know, it is so interesting because. So from my first job, I wanted to be a VP like my boss. I really looked up to my boss. I thought he was really cool. He was really fun. He was like nothing like me. He was like six foot three alpha alpha male rugby player. Like we're so different. Um, but I was like, I want your job. Like, it seems really cool to me. And I was, I mean, I was really fortunate that I stumbled into sales, biotech sales. And I say stumbled because like, I had no clue what I want to do with my career. I like switched programs three times in university. Like I was all over the place, as you can imagine. And, but I stumbled into biotech sales and I loved it. And I was good at it. And it didn't require like I was good at winging it. I was, you know, I, I was really interested in the types of things I was selling. So I was able to like, learn them inside and out.

  00:02:38 Dave: Yeah.

  00:02:38 Katy: And so I did progress relatively quickly to middle management, but that was where everything started to catch up with me, right? And so a lot of the executive functioning stuff, you know, you're managing down. And so you're keeping track of all of that and developing your team and like thinking and you're managing up. And so you're, you know, also trying to impress your boss and there's just like so much to handle at that level. And you don't necessarily have a lot of resources yet. Yeah. Um, and, and yeah, I would look at, I would look at the executives. Sometimes you talk about imposter syndrome, but I was like, these people are not like me. Like I forgot to pay for parking today and got a ticket or like, you know, I was like fifteen minutes late for the leadership meeting. Like, I'm so embarrassed. And so a lot of the stuff that was actually undiagnosed ADHD, I saw as like me just like being a bit of a shit show like me just not, you know, yeah, just being different. Um, but here's, this is the interesting thing I discovered is once you become an executive, if you can push through that messy middle, usually you have an assistant, you have resources. Like you actually have people that take care of all the stuff that you found so difficult. Like I was no longer booking my own travel. I was not doing my own expense reports. I was like, all this like executive functioning stuff. I was kind of able to hand off, which actually allowed me to do even better, I would say, as an executive than I did in middle management.

  00:04:09 Dave: That's a great perspective. Yeah, no, I love that. And it's a good it's a good reminder for folks. Yeah, that if they aren't at that senior level yet in their career, that's a wonderful reason to do that, right, is to get get to that point and having, having that, that scaffolding in place, having those assistance and others. And so biotech. So you what did you where did you study? You're from Ottawa as we were talking about before. And that's I'm from Toronto originally. And um, so where did you go to school? What kind of stuff were you studying?

  00:04:44 Katy: Um, so, so I did chemistry at Carleton for a bit. Then I actually did nutrition at Ryerson. So I was in Toronto.

  00:04:51 Dave: Yeah, yeah.

  00:04:52 Katy: And then I did biopharmaceutical science at the University of Ottawa because again, like I was, I was indecisive. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was kind of all over the place. So it took me six years to get a four year degree. So, I mean, it probably didn't look like I was going to be super successful, at least initially. But luckily the third degree stuff, I was able to finish that one and then move into the workforce.

  00:05:15 Dave: Yeah, that's great because like I barely passed high school, uh, let alone I think I had five different high schools in Toronto. Uh, but, um, I digress, but yeah, no, I went to Ryerson as well and studied business communications marketing. And then before that studied radio and television broadcasting at Seneca College in Toronto. It's yeah, it's interesting where your path takes you. Oh, with the sales type of role too. And when you're into something and hyper focused on a topic of interest, preferably. I went down a different path and I studied like improv comedy at Second City in Toronto and have done a lot of improv. And now I do like corporate communication training and things using skills from improv, certainly, among others. Um, but that improv sort of aspect of, you know, that dopamine rush in the moment of thinking quickly on your feet can, you know, standing on a stage in front of an audience, making sure, you know, they're laughing and they're having a good time, which is also something as a speaker, a big part of my work. Um, but in your shoes, I would imagine without putting words in your mouth, I'm sure like the, you know, a high stakes sort of sales situation is kind of similar, right?

  00:06:22 Katy: Oh, yeah. Like hitting your number. Every sale that comes in, like all it's totally. And, and the interesting thing, because I didn't understand myself at that time, I didn't understand my brain. Um, but I would, I would get these huge highs from because I was good at sales. So I actually did really well. Um, and I would get these huge highs and then I would get these major lows when, you know, between sales and so yeah, it was, uh, but I did really love it. And, um, because I was also, I was, I worked with a lot of startups. I worked at a lot of companies doing really cool things. I did really think the things I was selling were cool. Like one of the companies I worked for, one of my customers was the, uh, the scientific advisor for Jurassic Park. So.

  00:07:08 Dave: Oh, nice.

  00:07:09 Katy: Really cool. Because like, you know, so I got to have great conversations and that kind of thing. Um, and so yeah, it's, I imagine that was kind of similar. The idea of like improv and speaking, you do get that same dopamine rush that I think we all kind of thrive on. So that kept me going. Yeah, for a while. Yeah, yeah.

  00:07:27 Dave: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so now you're coaching executives. Is that right?

  00:07:32 Katy: Yeah. So the, the thing I really want to do, so I, I'm my mission, I would say is to help close the gender gap in senior leadership because I came up in biotech, in tech, I was often the only woman at the table or the only woman in the room. And so I really lived this male dominated industry thing, and I've always wanted to. Like help the women around me, especially as I started to see my own success and see women getting stuck in the same spot. And these were like super hard working, smart, you know, awesome women. I was like, yeah, I want to, I want to help to close this gap a little bit. So what I do now is I focus on helping women land their first VP role. So that's like the, the single place that I think I can help the most because I, I joke that I've thought about this more than anyone on the planet. When I was a director for five years, I couldn't get that promotion and I, I really did become kind of like obsessed with figuring out. What does it take to become a successful executive? Like, why do some people get to do it? And some people kind of never figure it out. And, um, and then, yeah, once I became a VP and EVP and eventually decided to leave the corporate space because also when you get higher and higher up into leadership, there are certain things that my brain loved to do. I love strategy sessions, love connecting the dots, love looking at my sales dashboards for our teams. Didn't love dealing with legal and compliance, didn't love having to follow all these processes or whatever. So, um, so eventually got to the point where I wasn't really feeling aligned and I decided to, to leave the corporate space, but I thought, this is what I want to do. Like these are the people I want to help. And so I've been doing that ever since. And it's, it's awesome. It's so much fun.

  00:09:13 Dave: And you said you've been doing that for four years now. Is that what's the timeline like in your diagnosis as well?

  00:09:22 Katy: Yeah. So I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until after I left corporate. I always think back, I wish, I really wish I had known sooner. Yeah, but I, I didn't and, and so the way it ended up happening, I think I always kind of suspected deep down that I, I might have ADHD and my second child Pretty like sure has ADHD, like ninety nine point nine percent. But during the pandemic, I remember I, I have a friend of mine who was a hairdresser was coming over to do my hair. She's like a friend of a friend. Yeah. She'd also been a social worker and her daughter was diagnosed with ADHD. And the reason that that matters is the story. So she's doing my hair. We were talking and I think at some point we were talking about her daughter or something, and I might have said something like, yeah, I think I probably have ADHD or something like that. And I would say something I didn't know if I really meant it, but like sometimes I would say that and we spoke, you know, took a while. I got a lot of hair, right. So she's doing my hair for a couple hours and we're talking. And then she was leaving. I remember I can picture this so clearly in my mind. She was leaving. I was saying goodbye to her at the front door. She just looks so good to see you. I was like, oh, so good to see you too. She goes, oh, and by the way, Katie, you one hundred percent have ADHD. And I.

  00:10:35 Dave: Was.

  00:10:37 Katy: Like, what? It, it just completely shocked me because I was like, really? Like, you actually think I do? She's like one thousand percent. I was like, oh, okay. And so that's what kind of got me starting to think about what does that mean? Like, I had never even really looked into what I, you know, I had the picture in my mind of like, you know, a nine year old boy bouncing off the walls, but I hadn't really looked into ADHD in women or as adults or any of that kind of thing. Um, and it's so funny because at the time I was like, yeah, but I'm not hyperactive. Like I'm the most hyperactive person. I don't know why I thought that. I'm so hyper.

  00:11:16 Dave: Um, how long were you sitting in a chair under scissors and blow dryers? You were probably, like, moving around. She's, like, totally.

  00:11:24 Speaker 3: Like, I remember being when I was a director.

  00:11:27 Katy: And my CEO was giving me feedback about why I wasn't becoming a VP and had it seem, seem more senior and less junior. He's like, you need to move less in meetings.

  00:11:37 Dave: Yeah.

  00:11:38 Katy: It didn't click in like I knew I was fidgety, but I it just didn't click at that time. And so I after that, I did kind of start to, to think about, yeah, you know, maybe do I look at this? I started listening to, you know, a few podcasts and things and, um, looking online like, how do I know I have ADHD, you know, that kind of thing. And then I did seek out a diagnosis. So then I ended up being diagnosed when I was forty three. So I'm forty six now. So three years ago was shortly into my entrepreneurial journey. Um, and the interesting thing is I had already created so many hacks in my life to function well with ADHD that when I started to look into the tips for managing ADHD, I'm like, oh, I've naturally started doing so many of these things. Yeah. Because it was like, you know, forty three years of trial and error, like things not working and then finding things that work.

  00:12:30 Dave: So yeah, they're called, they're, they're called coping mechanisms.

  00:12:35 Speaker 3: Yeah.

  00:12:36 Dave: It's these terms, These terms I'd never heard of a few years ago. And now I'm like, oh, masking. Oh, okay, I get that now I understand. Or coping mechanisms. Yes.

  00:12:46 Katy: Yeah. And, and I remember thinking, you know, because I think especially I probably still maybe so, I don't know. But a few years back, it was kind of cool to be like Kardashian board, like, like, you know, not animated. Like just be like, yeah, no, no, no, like this, like your own vocal fry. Right? And I'm just an animated person. I mean, like, again, I'm, I'm so I'm combination like I'm both, um.

  00:13:14 Dave: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  00:13:14 Katy: When I was diagnosed, right. I think it's like you have to meet like either like maybe six overall criteria or four in each or in a category or something like that. I meet like almost all of them in both categories. I have all of the ADHD symptoms. Yeah. And so yeah, I remember thinking like, how do people like sit so still and speak so Boringly.

  00:13:36 Dave: I just can't do it. And how were you as a. How were you in like in grade school or in like high school or like, how were you then?

  00:13:46 Speaker 3: Um, so, I mean, I was smart.

  00:13:48 Katy: Like, I, I, I did well in subjects like math and chemistry because they don't require studying or like as long as you understand it. Yeah. Um, because I could hyper focus. I actually was if like, if I went to class and I listened, I would absorb the information and understand it.

  00:14:06 Dave: Yeah.

  00:14:07 Katy: Um, I couldn't study like I, I remember, I remember, uh, the first time I ever had to study for an exam. Like I was literally like, I don't even know what you're supposed to do. Like I was so lost. Yeah. Um, so that's never come naturally to me. So my grades were up and down. Like I remember in grade ten, I had like the highest mark in our math class and in grade eleven hit. And I think I had a crush on a boy or something and like, wasn't really going to class and like, and all of a sudden, my marks just plummeted. So, um, but early in grade school, I would say the biggest thing was Katie talks too much in class. Katie's not paying attention. Like she's really smart, but she's being influenced by people around her, that type of thing. Um, I remember years later going back and looking at my old report cards and being like, oh, this is so fascinating to read now.

  00:14:57 Dave: Yeah, it's great that you have. Yeah, my mom, my mom kept mine too. So it was quite hilarious to read them. Yeah, yeah. And it is interesting. Yeah. Because I think there is this part of the reason why I asked you to because like so generalizing again, not a doctor. I always say this and I'm, you know, not one. I don't pretend to be one on the internet either. Well, there's enough of that out there, but, um, but my understanding too is that like with these three different presentations of ADHD, the, the inattentive presentation, the hyperactive impulsive presentation, and then the combined presentation. And I always use the analogy or the like I use the Lisa Simpson as inattentive, Bart Simpson as the hyperactive, and then Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes of as combined. And but generally speaking, and I don't know, like percentage wise, but my understanding at least is that women tend to be more the. Lisa Simpson more inattentive and and boys obviously are the more hyperactive. And as part of the reason why I was asking too is because I was that I was Bart Simpson. Um, and so, you know, I was the one. And so it, it also helps to explain why besides just, you know, misogyny and sexism and all the things that certainly exist and existed more so than as well, you know, so I wrote a post about this recently that I read a study that women tend to be diagnosed five years after men, uh, with ADHD. And, and I think part of it is as a child, if you're more inattentive, you're playing with your hair, you're just daydreaming, but you're getting the work done. And so you're not disrupting the class. So there's no reason to pay attention to you. You know, you're passing, maybe you're getting by or you're, you're doing great. I always stress that ADHD has nothing to do with intelligence. So you could be like Einstein who was believed to have had ADHD. So there's that. But, um, and then the combined presentation is an interesting thing because I think, and again, I, this is more anecdotal and I don't know if there's science to back it up, but my belief is that as you get older, I think everybody starts to become more combined more. So, um, and you also learn these coping mechanisms and masking methods to sort of deal with that hyperactivity. So like instead of bouncing around the room, you learn to like, you know, maybe, I don't know, like just get fixated on your phone or whatever it is, right? Yeah. So it's, it's interesting looking back at that. And also you mentioned, I think it was your daughter you said. Right. Or did you say your daughter or son? Excuse me? Um, but ADHD is, is as it's almost as heritable as height. So that means that if, if you have ADHD, there's a high likeliness one or more of your children do. Yeah. And it also means that one or more of your parents probably did too. Yeah. Or do, um, which also can help the, you know, help with kind of looking, reviewing your life and thinking of perhaps trauma or things that you went through. Um, certainly be because of that undiagnosed ADHD that, that could have been in the background. And so, and also women tend to be more typically, especially inattentive, tend to be more diagnosed with anxiety or depression and only diagnosed with ADHD, hopefully, uh, later, if that's the the root cause because I'm diagnosed with anxiety. But so often what happens is anxiety and depression are really common comorbidities that come along with ADHD, um, less common or OCD and bipolar and things that can come along, but they don't necessarily do. Um, and just to be clear too, for listeners like, you know, you can have clinical anxiety or depression and not have ADHD, of course, but what happens is that if the ADHD isn't treated and that's the root cause, then you're never really going to fully understand yourself or deal with that anxiety or depression or. And so that's, I think, a part of the reason why women have been missed, uh, and, and how women are getting diagnosed now mainly is by taking their child, you know, now the stigmas are being removed. Mental health is, is something we support, uh, hopefully mostly. And, and so now you, you feel more encouraged to take your child and if to, to get tested, if, if they need it. And then when they get diagnosed with ADHD and you start to learn about it with your child, and this is often the woman, uh, the mother, you start to be like, you're like, oh, wait a minute. Oh, hello. Yes, now I understand. And I'm, I'm such a big believer that this will end, not end, but this will really curb future generations of trauma and kids. Because if the parent is treating their ADHD and understand this about themselves, they will naturally learn to be less impulsive or less prone to addiction or these different things. So sorry.

  00:20:00 Katy: Oh, one hundred percent, one hundred percent. No, it's going to say with with women, oftentimes, I think it's two things. One is getting their children diagnosed, learning more about it, and then seeing themselves. Right. I've heard this story so many times, like reading it, they're like, ah, this sounds exactly like me. Yeah. Um, the second thing is, as women start to reach perimenopause and our hormones are all out of whack, ADHD symptoms tend to get worse. And so I think that's another time of life that a lot of women start to be like, whoa, like I was already barely hanging on by a thread and now everything is just like, yes, totally bananas. Right? And so they start to look for for answers at that sort of stage as well.

  00:20:41 Dave: Yeah, I want to bring a doctor on to talk about that because that is something I put some feelers out about, about speaking with like a PhD or someone or an MD about, about that because yeah, obviously I don't know a ton about menopause or perimenopause, but I do know. Yeah. I hear a lot about, you know, yeah, exactly what you said that. And I think, yeah, I think these different stages of life, whether they're like physical like that or, or whether they're like situational, like, I know a lot of young adults get end up getting diagnosed now because they go off to college and now they have no scaffolding, they have no parents to nag them to do the thing, and they're completely overwhelmed, and suddenly I need a therapist. And that therapist might diagnose them and be like, oh, because they're facing or they're partying too hard and partaking and all the things to partake in. And that excess can, uh, can lead to bad things too. And oh.

  00:21:37 Katy: Yeah, it's.

  00:21:38 Speaker 3: So.

  00:21:38 Katy: Crazy how much changing my lifestyle has impacted my symptoms. Because when I think about at my worst, when I was like drinking wine every night and I had no morning routine and, you know, I just like falling into a lot of really bad habits. A lot of, you know. Yeah. Dopamine fueled lifestyle. Yeah. And it really wasn't serving me like it was. I couldn't even get to work before ten o'clock. And now I would say my life looks completely different. But a big part of that for me has been I don't drink anymore either. You know, you mentioned drinking Anymore either. Um, I prioritize like healthy living, exercising every morning, meditation, like all of these things. And I tell my kids, like, this is good for anyone, by the way, like, but my middle child who, like I said, I'm ninety nine percent sure he has ADHD, but he's not on any medication. I haven't gotten a formal diagnosis for him, but I'm like, we can put systems in place to help you be successful right now. We don't need to go get a diagnosis to do that. So let's just work on how you do. You know, there's things you can just start doing that are going to help you to be more successful. Let's just put those in place.

  00:22:55 Dave: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that actually. How, how was the I almost said process, but I'm talking to Canadian process feels better. I might even talk. I might even talk a metric in a little while back. Yes, I'm back baby. Um, yeah. I miss my home and native land sometimes. Uh, often times these days, but I digress. Um, uh, as far as the, the diagnosis goes and the, the, um, the access to medication, things like that, how did that go for you? Um, in Ontario with sort of the, the, yeah, I hear different reports of different provinces and I'm always curious about how things are looking. I know like kind of the NHS in the UK, sort of a bit of a mess right now. And so how, you know, uh, having spent some time last year with my mom in the hospital in Toronto, you know, my experiences were great and, and hers more importantly, were great. Um, but I mean, you know, the shortages are there. The, the funding gaps are there and problems are there. So how did it go for you for, for that diagnosis? Did you like have a long wait? Um, obviously as a, as a former executive, you probably have some capital that you can invest in helping to make things. Not everybody has that. How is that? How is that looking for you and in Ontario?

  00:24:23 Katy: Oh yeah, I there are um, there are some significant wait times depending on what you choose to do. So because of that, I did go like a paid telehealth route because it was during the pandemic. So I did it all through like a telehealth, um, that specializes in, in like neuro diversity and ADHD and all kinds of stuff. I can't, I can't even remember which one it was, but I did pay to go through the process, um, which made it a little bit quicker. The funny thing is that I was amazed I even got through it because I have ADHD and you have to fill out hours of forms and answer things, and then you do interviews too. But like the first step is like filling out form after form after form. And I was joking with my now husband that I was, I was like, I wonder if part of the process is they actually can see my screen and they know how many times I like accidentally go do something else. I come back to it. I, I forget to save like and so it was in that sense, like that was, that was really hard. I was joking, like, I can solve the biggest problem in your company. Don't ask me to fill out a form. It's just like, right.

  00:25:38 Dave: Yeah.

  00:25:38 Katy: So, so painful for me. Um, so that's the process that I ended up going through again, because I, I was able to access that more easily. Um, and I, I was, you know, wanting to, to get some something quicker. Um, but yeah, overall we do see some, I've seen lots of info on wait times, like both for Ontario, but also out west, like I've seen different provinces, you know.

  00:26:03 Dave: I've heard really.

  00:26:05 Katy: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, as you know, the thing with the Canadian healthcare system is it can be amazing when you really need it. Like. Yeah, when it's urgent, like you're going to get the best care. But a lot of things that are considered more elective can take a lot longer. Yeah. And so I think there's a lot of people that are definitely challenged with that for sure.

  00:26:26 Dave: Yeah. It's funny because when I was diagnosed, you know, I've been in the States since like, like for eighteen years now. So, and, you know, still being like, uh, I only became a US citizen, as Neil Young says. So I'm probably, I'm still probably, you know, Canadian. Um, and that's our exit strategy should we need it. Uh, um, but, uh, when I got diagnosed, like I've always been, you know, for people unaware, like it's only in the US that you see ads for drugs on television, like you ask your doctor about blah, blah, blah. Like that's illegal in every, I think it's every country now except the US. And so you don't see that in Canada or anywhere else for that matter. And so. And because the US Americans, generally speaking, of course, are so medicated on all sorts of different things. Again, generally speaking, I've always been proud to not be on anything, even when I was hungover back in the day. Um, I would take, I would, I would not allow myself Tylenol. I would only take Tylenol if I had a headache on a regular day. But if I had a hangover, I was like, nope, sorry, sucker. You gotta push through it. Um, so I've always been very careful with that, but it was funny because the timing of my, my, uh, my diagnosis and treatment, suddenly I'm on anti-anxiety meds and on stimulants and it was like, just like it seemed to be like a month after becoming an American citizen that I'm like, damn it, like they got me. I mean, I still don't have a bunch of guns or anything, so I haven't gone that far. But still time. There's still time. Yes, yes. Um, yeah, just yeah.

  00:28:01 Katy: It is interesting because there is even like a mental like hump to get over around the idea of taking medication and I've. So I'm going to say something that I hope is not like really bad, but I've tried like friends medication, like I don't have a prescription. No one come and get me. I don't know if that's illegal or what, but, um, so, and probably I would need to test out a number of them, but I'm just the type of human that I feel everything I take, like I'm just like hyper sensitive. Yeah. So, um, when I've tried, I had a friend who was taking Adderall or something. She also has ADHD, obviously, and, um, she's on a very low dose, but I, and I was like, yeah, you know, we're good friends. So she was like, you want to try it? I was like, yeah, I actually do. And, uh, I found that the benefit, the big benefit for me was certain. So again, if you're a woman, oftentimes your ADHD symptoms will also shift with your menstrual cycle. So like the week before your period, they might get much worse. Where again, we're really good at masking. We're really good at hanging on. But then when our hormones get out of whack, suddenly it's like everything falls apart. And so oftentimes in that period of the month, um, I'll feel like extremely overwhelmed. Like I just can't like, it's like I can't even move. And so I find, uh, taking ADHD medication because it calms the ADHD symptoms, takes away that, that overwhelm. And I'm like, oh, I can function like I can just like, be like a regular person and like, get a thing done. I can fill out a form maybe who knows? Um, but, uh, but the thing I didn't like for me was that I felt like it also took a little bit of my mental sharpness away and I didn't like that feeling. And so again, it might just be the wrong one. Like again, I'm also like not a doctor and it could have been the wrong dose or drug or whatever. But what I decided was, I'm just going to see what can I do with all of the various other hacks and things that I can create in my life and then make a decision. So I'm always like, never say never. I don't know, there may be a point where I'm like, yeah, no, you know what? I'm ready to, to, to try that. But I'm like, you, I, I never take anything like, I, it's rare that I take medication. And so there's also for me, that logical thing that I kind of have to get over about taking something every single day.

  00:30:23 Dave: Yeah. And it has. Yeah, it's been interesting, like what I've learned with like stimulants, especially like if you're on an anxiety or depression medication, like that's not something you can just stop, like it's not safe to do that. Um, where stimulants you can, you can, I mean, with, you know, talk to your doctor, of course, but you can, um, just stop or you can take them as you need to. Like if you really need to focus on, you know, if it's a weekend and you don't have anything to do, then maybe not. And also it's interesting because there none, at least for, you know, ADHD ers, they're not, uh, addictive. Um, which is great because that's the big thing here. Yeah, yeah, well, they forget to take their meds, right? It's like, well, yeah, you're not addicted if you forget to take your meds, right? Like clearly they're not. But one thing that I heard about a lot, and I talked to my doctor about this, not that a few months ago was I always hear more anecdotally online on social, which of course don't believe anything there that you hear these eureka moments of people taking an ADHD med and like a stimulant and they're like, oh, the clouds have parted. And they're like, oh my God, this is like, oh my God. And my understanding, at least from my doctor and my own experience is I didn't get that at all. And in fact, it's really neuro typical people who take an ADHD stimulant who shouldn't be. And they feel the oh, because yeah, they ain't supposed to be on that. It's not for them. And so but it's interesting too. The other thing I was going to say with ADHD meds is, and my experience is, is when you start, you start on stimulant A and you start at like ten milligrams or whatever the dose is, and then you increase the dose with your doctor. Of course, you increase that dose gradually until you feel like it's in a good spot. And what can happen is there are some side effects. Nothing that I know of that are terrible. But again, I'm not a not a doctor here, but you know, things like sleep or, you know, like just changing moods, mood swings, things like that. And so if that comes up or we like, I had a weird thing with Vyvanse where I had this like sense that I could smell like gas, gasoline. It was the weirdest thing. And my doctor was like, ah, that's, that's unusual. Um, and so we switched meds and when you switched to a different stimulant, you again start at ten and kind of gradually move up until you find that sort of sweet spot and then making sure that it behaves with anything else that you're, you're taking as well. Um, but my big experiment was actually under my therapist recommended doing this was to take a week off the stimulants instead of. Yeah. And just see how I feel. Yeah. And I wrote a long blog post in newsletter about this at y squirrels dot com. Basically describing what I went through, which was this feeling at first of like being at like the nicest resort in the pool in the center. The bar's over there. The like, you know, it's a beautiful day. It's like, and I'm, I'm treading water and I feel great. And then like, my arms start getting tired and then my legs are getting tired and suddenly I'm like starting to bob. And I'm like, oh, I'm gonna drown here. And that was kind of how I summarized it in written form to kind of describe how I felt. And then and then once I came back up for air, I was like, how is my wife still here? Like, we've been married like twenty five. We've been together since ninety eight. I'm like, how the hell hasn't she murdered me yet? Um, yeah, kind of a miracle. But, you know, God bless her. Uh, so, yeah, you learn a lot about yourself.

  00:33:55 Katy: Interesting. I love that you said that you thought it was going to be this eureka moment, because that's what I thought, too. And I have never experienced that either, where I'm like, I just feel kind of the same, although maybe like less overwhelmed or less whatever. Like I can, you know, I feel a little different. Like, again, I feel like I'm not drowning. So I could totally see that analogy. Yeah. Um, but I've heard people say that, you know, the first time they take ADHD medication, they're just like, this is what people's brains feel like. This is like the best I can think so clearly like an whatever. And I'm like, yeah, that didn't really happen to me. So yeah.

  00:34:30 Dave: Maybe.

  00:34:31 Katy: It's.

  00:34:31 Dave: Like, whatever. Poser. Yeah, it's like you probably have like three cups of coffee and you're like, whoa, I'm bouncing off the walls when I can drink like a pot and still be like.

  00:34:40 Katy: Yeah, yeah, totally. It just gets me up to baseline, like.

  00:34:44 Dave: Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um. That's hilarious. Um, yeah, no, I, I mean, I'm, you know, obviously, and coaching the, the coaching work that I do, helping professionals improve how they communicate has a lot of my coaching clients now come through. Why squirrels? Because I've learned so much about ADHD. Again, not ever claiming to be a doctor or a therapist or someone, but certainly being hyper focused on this topic and learning so much about it and understanding myself and others now, even with more like empathy. That's the other side of it, right? Like you can be more forgiving of your son if he's like, maybe, you know, I mean, they're kids. They'll drive us crazy. My to do to you can be a little more empathetic perhaps. And same with your parents or parent who might have, like, you know, made you crazy. You're like, oh, they didn't they weren't diagnosed. That's why the scotch. Um, yeah.

  00:35:39 Katy: Totally self-medicating.

  00:35:41 Dave: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So and as far as the business goes, so you're, you're, you're helping executives and, and with a focus on women trying to move up that that ladder, what are some of the common things you see? And maybe for our listener, who who is at that level or not at that level yet who is, you know, sees the ladder ready to climb the ladder. But, uh, yeah.

  00:36:08 Katy: Yeah. So some of the things well, so first I, I, I do end up attracting a lot of women with ADHD to work with me. I think because like, like attracts like, right.

  00:36:17 Dave: So we do. Yeah.

  00:36:19 Katy: Yeah. I remember someone saying to me like, well, I have ADHD. Well, will the things you teach work for me? I'm like, well, I develop them for myself and I have ADHD. So I think yes. Yeah. Um, but they work, they work for anyone. So they work for people who are neurotypical. They work for people who are, um, neurodivergent. But some of the things that I see, I think a lot of this comes down to the way we're conditioned as girls to be pleasers, to be a good girl, to wait our turn, put up our hand. All of the things translate into the way we show up in the workforce. And so, you know, some of the things that I see happening are women, these like really high functioning women who are like the person that gets stuff done. They're the go to. And I always say, these are my like high performing executives and they think they're doing a good thing by doing it all themselves and saying yes every single time. And truthfully, early in your career, this actually helps like being the hardest worker. Yeah. Putting up your hand for everything. Taking on an extra project like that will get you those early promotions. However, once you get to middle management, you want to move into senior leadership. This totally stops working because that's the point where people want to start seeing you. Seeing you be more strategic, be more intentional. Like really be thoughtful about should we be doing this thing? What are the biggest problems I need to solve? What is the best way to solve those for my team? And often times I'm like, this is totally me included where we're going so fast. Meeting, meeting, meeting. Work, work, work that we don't slow down long enough to ask ourselves those questions, right? To really think about like, what are the most important things? Like, how can I really drive greater impact here? And a lot of the women I work with even almost feel guilty, I would say, like block out even a single deep work time ever, like a single deep work block every single week, two hours. Yeah. And they're like, but like, well, I block it out. But then as soon as somebody asks me to block over, I let them or my team needs something or whatever. And so as women, we often feel guilty blocking that time out, not putting pen to paper or on calls or in one to ones all the time. And so that's a really big thing that I see a really big challenge. I think that a lot of women need to become aware of, like, once we're aware of it, that's the first step, right? We can start to do something different.

  00:38:43 Dave: Yeah, absolutely.

  00:38:45 Katy: And kind of everything flows from there. Like if I take a huge step back, a lot of this comes down to just acting with intention. And how do I want to be showing up in this situation? Who is the leader I want to be? Allowing yourself that freedom, like you can take an hour and think about your career or think about things. You don't just have to be like, go, go, go from eight to six. Yeah, yeah.

  00:39:09 Dave: Do you think that, um, it's funny because I see myself in a lot of what you've described, right? Like of, of being like a overachiever and a hard worker and, and taking on the extra tasks and all that stuff, but more from undiagnosed, of course. And so, and not having either the gumption or the courage to kind of get to that next level in a sort of corporate setting. Yeah, it'd be curious. I'd be curious, you know, sometimes. Yeah. It's probably controversial to say it. Uh, I may piss you off, but sometimes it's like, well, it's sometimes, I mean, I always say like, you know, as a speaker too. And like, you know, I'm a white straight male. Um, and I always preface this by saying like, we've had a great run. You know, it's been great. Like we've had a really nice run. It's been great. Um, so yeah, it is time to move over and let other people, uh, in. Right? Not to say I've ever intentionally done anything like that. Um, but sometimes I hear like from like women friends or minority friends who have these groups they go to that are only women or only minorities. And it's like, it's like, but I want to come to.

  00:40:15 Speaker 4: Like, I could use some help.

  00:40:16 Dave: Like I could use some help too, you know, and it's, yeah, I don't know.

  00:40:20 Speaker 4: I run free master classes.

  00:40:22 Katy: Because that's, you know, I, I share, I help people gain insights. So like what might be holding you back today? That's, that's been the theme of my masterclass in the beginning. It's, it's in the same line. It's changed a little bit over time, but it's always the same thing. I want someone to walk away with an insight into what is the actual thing holding me back, because when I was stuck, I didn't know and I wanted I like, I wish someone would have helped me see what the real problems were. And I've had a few men that have messaged me because sometimes I get like men on my email list and stuff and they're like, I've registered, but is it okay? Because I'm like, I'm a man. And I'm like, yes, yes. I'm like, hey, if you want to do me a favor, invite a woman, you know, because like, she can actually sign up for my program. But I'm still like, yes, I, you know, I post content every single day. And, and to your point, like I noticed that men and women get stuck at this stage. And initially when I started my business, actually, I was coaching both men and women. But as I started to post more online and realize what I was really passionate about and see like think about my own experience, I was like, no, I really want to work with women. I really want to help them do this. Um, but, but I, I've coached some amazing men. I've coached men and helped them make this transition in the past too. Right? So, um, I do think that a lot of people do struggle with the same things. And, and the challenge is like, no one tells us this stuff. Like there's no course that's like how to start. You know how to shift people's perception of you, like how to start seeming more strategic and less tactical. Like that's just not out there. You can find stuff on people leadership, you can find stuff on, you know, very specific, maybe skill development. But a lot of this transition stuff, I mean, at least when I was going through this, there was nothing. So that's really what prompted me to want to create it.

  00:42:03 Dave: Do you see that? Like the women and obviously women had been held back professionally and underpaid, professionally and underappreciated? I mean, professionally, but also personally too. Like, I mean, moms. Hello. Um, that's a full time job on its own. Um, so yeah, I'm not discrediting any of that, but um, yeah, so being clearly, and I would assume you're pretty extroverted, like just a hunch, but I also, much to the chagrin of my wife, who is introverted, she's like, when are you traveling again? Uh.

  00:42:35 Speaker 5: By the way, my husband.

  00:42:37 Dave: We're like empty nesters now too. So it's like, you know, she's like, well, I keep telling my neighbors that if you don't see me for a few days, call the police because Heather has murdered me, uh, and got, you know, it's right. She probably should I ask I know I say all that because, you know, obviously you're extroverted, you're driven. Do you find that most of your clients primarily let's, let's say, are women that are obviously trying to get to that next level. And the fact that they want to get to that next level and recognize that they should and so forth, are probably already more extroverted and driven to even reach out to you in the first place. Or do you find that, you know, what about like the more introverted, shy woman that's kind of middle manager who would also like to go the next step, but is like, I just don't want to have to talk about it. I mean, you know what I mean? Because, you know, people are shy, people are more introverted. And I think sometimes that can, you know, I wrote a book about networking and I also have written a lot about networking for introverts as well. But, you know, there is that that challenge for the introvert or the shy person? Um, any tips there or thoughts for those types of clients?

  00:43:46 Katy: Yeah, I mean, I would say I do get a lot of women who are introverted who come work with me as well, potentially because I mean, I do. So I do, um, live cohorts and they're, they're smallish groups. I have them at twenty five. So they're not super, super small, but they're not super big either. And so everyone does get attention and it's a like a safe space, right? Where it's, it's all women. We're all in the same boat. Um, I do think though, that, I mean, there, there is that additional, there's so many additional things actually that we can layer on because a lot of the women even that come work with me who maybe come from like various different cultures are also layering on conditioning around, putting everyone else first and, and not, uh, not challenging superiors and like so many things, right. Um, but definitely yeah. it is a real thing. And, um, and, but one thing that I do love to remind people of is that showing up maybe confidently and assertively doesn't have to be loud. Like you don't actually have to be the loudest one in the room. You want to be intentional about what you're sharing. You want to ensure that when you have something important to say, you do it and think about a way that that works for you. So for example, I had one client, she was constantly being talked over and interrupted by a male colleague. And so we actually came up with strategies like, what are you going to do? And I was like, so one thing you can do is you can create, like do like a physical gesture of like, kind of like putting up your hand or, you know, making a gesture like as he's interrupting. So like that will it's kind of like a pattern interrupter, right? That you're, you're, I'm still talking. Um, if you're on a Zoom call, which most of us are these days, I'm like, put up your virtual hand, like actually, but yeah, you know, and it might be kind of funny, but you could say like, I really want to, I really want to finish my point. And so I didn't want to have to talk over so and so I'd love to finish before we move on. And so we come up with language that feels good to them. Like I'm a really big believer of not just doing something as someone tells you to do it, but it has to feel authentic to you, it has to feel good to you. And sometimes that might be different with women and men. It might be different with introverts versus extroverts, like all kinds of things. And so I really love to work with women on that. Like, let's come up with language that feels good to you if you need to push back. For example, if you need to ask for something or advocate for yourself, don't do it in that weird, awkward way. Like, yeah, come up with a way that's going to feel good to you. And that's often the defining thing that allows them like almost gives them permission to do it.

  00:46:23 Dave: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I do a lot of a big part of besides coaching a lot of my business is, is speaking. So I go to conferences and trade shows and companies and deliver presentations on communication. And I was speaking at a conference last year, and these two gentlemen were were standing in the back talking during my presentation, and I saw them and I was like, like zeroed in on them. And I know how to handle it. And I the first time I did this, excuse me, the first time I did this was many years ago. But, um, and I knew to like, I, I walked off the stage and sort of talked as I'm speaking in the audience, I walked right up to the two guys and I stood like right in front of them, looking at them, saying the thing that I was talking about in the presentation. So I wasn't like pointing them out or anything, but I just walked. And they were both like, like I had both of their attention at that point. And then like, you know, and I bring, I bring a lot of humor and performance to, to the presentations anyway. So, you know, it was all good. But I got home and I told my wife this. I was like, you wouldn't believe what I figured out. I cracked the code and she's like, what? What? And I told her, and she's like, Dave, I'm a school teacher. And I'm like, oh. And she's like, this is like teaching one hundred one. Like, that's so obvious. Like, why don't you just ask me? I told you that. I'm like, oh, I was like, I cracked the code. I figured it out. Um, but then also like during, especially during the pandemic, you know, the peak of things there, all the speaking I was doing was staring into these magic webcams. And so I've learned a lot and I do virtual speaking training on, on, on camera and some of the stuff that I've learned, um, and a big one, and especially for women because there's been studies to back this up, but, uh, turn off your self view. Um, because I have it on at first to do like your spinach check and your teeth. But like after that, turn off the self view and you, there's that option on all the different platforms. So your camera's still on, but you don't see yourself because women, generally speaking, are more self judgmental. But I mean, men are too, and it's just soul sucking to stare at yourself as you're speaking, especially if you're on back to back calls, right? Yeah. So, so it's, I do encourage anyone to, to try that, to turn off the self view. Um, after this finish check, of course. And then, um, and just see how you're feeling at the end of the meeting or the end of the day. I think you'll find pretty quickly you have more energy and you're like, oh, yeah. So zoom fatigue kind of helps to, it doesn't cure boring meetings. But um, yeah, anyway.

  00:49:05 Katy: I do love that though, because I've, I have had a few women that have mentioned to me that that's like particularly challenging to them. So yeah, being able to turn it off and just like be yourself and not stare at your. It is really strange to stare at yourself talking time like, yeah, it is. Yeah.

  00:49:23 Dave: It's not human like it's not. Yeah. I mean, like if you're rehearsing a presentation in front of a mirror, I get that. Or a magic trick. Um, if you're a nerd like me. Uh, but, um, um, but yeah, otherwise, yeah, it's it's better to just turn it off. So, um, and just remember that it's on though. Um, so you're not like picking your nose or something. Um, this has been awesome. Katie. Uh, is there anything I haven't asked you about or anything else you wanted to, to share? I know I've just noticed the time and I'm like, I'm having so much fun, but it's flying by.

  00:49:56 Katy: Yeah. No, I mean, I think the big message I want people to know is that you're listening to this podcast and you have ADHD. You can be an executive, you can actually be like a killer executive. A lot of the way our brains work, I think, really help us to excel at those really senior levels. And so yeah, you might be running fifteen minutes late, maybe you forgot to pay for parking, maybe whatever the thing is, but don't discount yourself, right? Like don't take yourself out of the race because of that, because I'm like living proof that you can really thrive at those senior levels. And I've seen it lots of times with with others that I know. So that's my big message for for anyone listening.

  00:50:32 Dave: Know I love it. Yeah. And it worked for like, like Sara Blakely is always the, the name that comes up in my mind right away as someone who's a female executive, very, extremely successful entrepreneur. Uh, Spanx is, uh, one was one of her brands. She has a new one. I forget what it is, but she's like ADHD as well, right? So like, yeah, it's, uh, and the studies I've seen, it's like sixty to eighty percent or people with ADHD are sixty to eighty percent more likely to have entrepreneurial intentions and nearly one hundred percent more likely to start a company or a business at some point or a side hustle or whatever.

  00:51:08 Katy: Does not surprise me. I feel like all of my entrepreneur friends have ADHD.

  00:51:13 Dave: We all I mean, yeah, yeah, there's something, there's certainly something to that.

  00:51:17 Katy: This is such a good conversation because like I always encourage anyone if they're, if they suspect they have ADHD, oftentimes I'm like, If you think of ADHD. You probably have ADHD. Like we tend to gaslight ourselves. I certainly did before I was diagnosed. And so I do encourage people like go seek that out. Even if you don't plan to do anything about it right away. Yeah, it is good to know, right?

  00:51:39 Dave: It's good to know your operating system. Yeah. How can people find you, Katie? How can they? How can how can they learn more about what you do and get in touch?

  00:51:46 Katy: Yeah. So if yeah, if you liked if you liked what I talked about, I post on LinkedIn every single day. So if you want more leadership advice, there's a lot of leadership advice and stuff there. I also have a podcast called More Women Promoted, so you can probably guess what that's about getting more women promoted. And so I talk a lot about things you can do. It's like bite sized episode, like twenty minute episodes that I try to make really, um, just like actionable and applicable. So go check those things out.

  00:52:12 Dave: Nice. That's awesome. Yeah. And I'll include links to everything in the show notes. Katie, this has been so much fun. Thanks for thanks for joining me.

  00:52:19 Katy: Oh, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I love this conversation. So thanks a lot.