PODCAST. ADHD Careers and Avoiding Burnout with Shell Mendelson.
Episode Sponsored by Inflow. Try the free ADHD traits quiz and meet Quinn, your new AI ADHD companion. Get support when you’re stuck, overwhelmed, or just need to feel understood. Click here.
Today, our Chief Wise Squirrel, Dave Delaney, speaks with Shell Mendelson, a veteran career counselor, coach, and educator with more than three decades of experience helping ADHD and neurodivergent adults and teens discover meaningful, sustainable work they love. Trained by Richard Bolles, the legendary author of What Color Is Your Parachute?, and holding master’s degrees in both Vocational/Career Counseling and Vocational Rehabilitation Counseling, she brings deep expertise to guiding clients from confusion to clarity.
Her work centers on making the career decision-making process accessible and achievable, especially for those who have struggled with traditional approaches. This commitment is reflected in her widely praised book, Unlock Your Career Path: A Course for Neurodivergent Adults and Teens, often described as one of the most ADHD-friendly resources available. Shell’s background also includes building and leading an international children’s art franchise, KidzArt, showcasing her entrepreneurial spirit and her belief in creative, strengths-based learning.
Career Change With ADHD: Finding Work That Actually Fits You
Shell is late diagnosed herself, a fellow Wise Squirrel! She spent decades in vocational rehabilitation and career counseling, then built an international children’s art franchise called KidzArt, only to realize that, although it was successful on paper, it was not her true purpose. The stress, the “messes,” and the constant sense that something was off eventually pushed her to seek an ADHD diagnosis in her fifties. Once she got it, the story of her career finally made sense.
From there, she returned to her original love: helping people figure out what they are meant to do for work. Today, she focuses on neurodivergent adults, helping them find careers that match their brain wiring instead of fighting against it.
Skills You Love Versus Strengths That Burn You Out
One of the big shifts Shell talks about is the difference between strengths and preferred skills.
A strength is something you are good at. A preferred skill is something you are good at and actually enjoy using.
Many of us with ADHD get rewarded and promoted for things we do well but secretly dislike. Over time, that becomes a straight path to burnout. Shell helps clients identify the skills they genuinely want to use most days, not just the ones other people praise. Those skills become “must-haves” rather than “nice-to-haves.”
Why Standard Assessments Fall Short For ADHD Brains
Shell was trained in classic career methods, including Richard Bolles’ “What Color Is Your Parachute?” She respects that work, but after her diagnosis, she realized that traditional assessments often confuse or mislead neurodivergent people.
They tend to compare you to large groups of mostly neurotypical people. The questions can feel irrelevant, and the results rarely capture the nuance of our needs for stimulation, variety, autonomy, and conditions that support our nervous system.
Instead, Shell created her own process, captured in her book Unlock Your Career Path: A Course for Neurodivergent Adults and Teens. It is highly self-reflective and designed to keep out the “noise” of other people’s opinions while you reconnect with yourself.
The “Career Bubble” and Blocking Out the Noise
One of our favorite ideas from Shell is her “career bubble.”
While clients work through her process, she asks them not to talk about their ideas with spouses, parents, or friends. Not because those people are bad, but because one eye roll or one “have you thought about…” can knock you off course fast.
Inside the bubble, you focus completely on:
The skills you prefer to use
The kinds of people you want and do not want to work with
The conditions you need to function well
Your “fields of fascination” and special interests
The money you realistically need to bring in each month
You start with what you do not want, then turn that into a clear list of must-haves. The result is a career picture that is based on who you actually are, not who others think you should be.
Looking Back To Move Forward
Shell often starts by taking people back to childhood.
What did you love doing before the world told you what was “practical”?
What activities made you lose track of time?
What roles did you naturally step into?
When Dave answers those questions himself, he sees the through line. As a kid, he loved performing, writing, making people laugh, and connecting with others. Today, that shows up in keynote speaking, coaching, improv-based communication workshops, and podcasting.
Shell’s point is that your foundation rarely changes. The specific job or business might, but the underlying themes tend to stay the same.
Late Diagnosis, “Lost Time,” and Changing Course In Midlife
They also talk about the emotional side of getting diagnosed later in life. It is easy to look back and beat yourself up for what you “should” have done. Shell acknowledges that, but she is clear that it is never too late to get aligned.
If you are in your forties, fifties, or beyond, she does not tell you to drop everything and take on massive debt for another degree. Instead, she encourages very targeted moves. That might mean:
A short, specific training or certificate
Strategic networking and informational conversations
Joining communities in your field of fascination
Testing ideas on the side while you keep paying the bills
The goal is not fantasy. The goal is confidence. By doing the reflective work you probably never got to do earlier, you can make your next move with far more clarity and much less panic.
Entrepreneurship, ADHD, And Surviving The Dips
Both Shell and Dave have worked for themselves for many years, so they also talk about the rollercoaster of solopreneurship with ADHD.
They get into:
Why sales and self-promotion can feel so hard when you are a people pleaser
How external factors like the economy and tariffs can hit service businesses hard
The importance of being honest that many of us are riding the same ups and downs
Why you can’t stop talking about what you do, even when business is slow
Shell’s advice is simple, although not always easy. Keep connecting, keep sharing your work, keep finding ways to bring what you truly love into what you offer. And do not assume the dips mean you are failing.
Are you feeling stuck or burned out?
If this episode hit home because you feel stuck, burned out, or unsure what is next for your career with ADHD, remember, you do not have to figure it out alone.
You can:
Join Dave in Nashville on December 16th for his Nowhere But Up seminar. Wise Squirrels save $150 using the coupon code: WISE150. This is a limited-time offer.
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[00:00.000 --> 00:16.200] Welcome to Wise Squirrels, the podcast for late diagnosed adults with ADHD.
[00:16.200 --> 00:21.520] I'm your host, Dave Delaney, and today I'm excited to let you know that I'm speaking
[00:21.520 --> 00:27.220] with Shell Mendelson, who is an expert on career coaching, and we've got a lot in
[00:27.220 --> 00:30.700] store, so I will be getting to that interview in just a second.
[00:30.700 --> 00:37.060] A couple quick things, one, I need to tell you about our awesome sponsor, Inflow, Hello.
[00:37.060 --> 00:40.260] If you haven't checked out Inflow yet, you really should.
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[00:54.700 --> 00:59.940] Plus they give you lifelong skills that help you build those skills, and they help you
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[01:00.940 --> 01:07.840] It's a really cool app, but even before you use the app, you should check out the free
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[01:18.860 --> 01:25.500] This is all available from Wise Squirrels.com slash Inflow, and we have Inflow to think as
[01:25.500 --> 01:27.420] our sponsor of Wise Squirrels.
[01:27.420 --> 01:33.580] And if you'd like to become a sponsor, check out Wise Squirrels.com slash sponsor for details
[01:33.580 --> 01:34.580] about that.
[01:34.580 --> 01:40.380] On December 16th here in Nashville, Tennessee, I am hosting an in-person all day seminar.
[01:40.380 --> 01:47.060] This is called nowhere but up, and I've created it to help you gain clarity and confidence
[01:47.060 --> 01:49.100] and momentum in your own career.
[01:49.100 --> 01:54.140] I'll be using my root down framework to teach you better how to understand yourself,
[01:54.140 --> 01:58.220] to know yourself, your strengths, and just how awesome you are.
[01:58.220 --> 02:03.300] But it will also teach you how to respect yourself, give yourself some self-love, building
[02:03.300 --> 02:07.780] healthy habits, and then finally connecting yourself, which is an important thing, especially
[02:07.780 --> 02:13.500] in this day and age when we seem to be more lonely than we ever have been before.
[02:13.500 --> 02:19.060] I'm doing this all together in this one day seminar, and it's going to be a great reset,
[02:19.060 --> 02:22.540] but it's also going to help you prepare for the new year.
[02:22.540 --> 02:27.620] So December 16th here in Nashville, Tennessee, visit Wise Squirrels.com, click the link.
[02:27.620 --> 02:32.740] There is a coupon code still available where you can save 150 bucks.
[02:32.740 --> 02:38.100] So visit Wise Squirrels.com and you can get details about nowhere but up.
[02:38.100 --> 02:43.700] You know, I really wanted to make it to the ADHD conference this year.
[02:43.700 --> 02:45.180] It was in Kansas City.
[02:45.180 --> 02:52.100] I was even planning a meet-up for fellow Wise Squirrels, but it got busy.
[02:52.100 --> 02:58.100] I had some clients that needed me, and unfortunately I wasn't able to make it there.
[02:58.100 --> 03:01.140] But if you were there, I would love to hear about it.
[03:01.140 --> 03:07.700] You know, this ADHD conference is interesting because it's part science.
[03:07.700 --> 03:13.300] So it's medical professionals talking about the latest findings and things about ADHD.
[03:13.300 --> 03:17.740] But then it's also for, you know, it's organized by Chad as well.
[03:17.740 --> 03:22.980] So it's also for parents and others who are learning about ADHD, too.
[03:22.980 --> 03:26.140] I believe it's pretty big, I've never been.
[03:26.140 --> 03:30.860] I was supposed to go the first year when I was diagnosed three years ago.
[03:30.860 --> 03:33.900] But it was like right on the cusp and I just missed it.
[03:33.900 --> 03:35.780] And then last year I wasn't able to make it.
[03:35.780 --> 03:40.340] And so this year I had hoped to be there, but wasn't able to make it again.
[03:40.340 --> 03:42.940] So what are you going to do?
[03:42.940 --> 03:44.580] But I'd love to hear from you if you were there.
[03:44.580 --> 03:46.060] Tell me about the conference.
[03:46.060 --> 03:47.060] Was it good?
[03:47.060 --> 03:48.060] Not so good?
[03:48.060 --> 03:49.420] Was it too overwhelming?
[03:49.420 --> 03:51.660] Was it just good enough?
[03:51.660 --> 03:52.660] Would love your feedback?
[03:52.660 --> 03:54.500] Love to hear what your thoughts are.
[03:54.500 --> 03:58.380] And speaking of sharing your feedback, did you know there's a way to record an audio
[03:58.380 --> 03:59.620] comment?
[03:59.620 --> 04:00.620] Or question?
[04:00.700 --> 04:07.020] All you have to do is visit yscrolls.com, click the link to any of the blog posts or show
[04:07.020 --> 04:09.740] notes that correspond with each episode.
[04:09.740 --> 04:14.380] I've included a recorder at the bottom of each show notes blog post where you can click
[04:14.380 --> 04:20.940] and record a comment or you can just record one and send it to me at hello at yscrolls.com.
[04:20.940 --> 04:24.860] And before jumping into my interview with Shell, I did want to mention one last thing,
[04:24.860 --> 04:29.780] which is I encourage you right now, click the coaching button and book a session with
[04:29.780 --> 04:30.780] me.
[04:30.780 --> 04:35.340] I call them good fit sessions because I want to see if I'm a good fit for you.
[04:35.340 --> 04:38.180] And if you're a good fit for me, the sessions are free.
[04:38.180 --> 04:39.700] There's no strings attached.
[04:39.700 --> 04:42.380] I want to spend some time with you and see if I can help you.
[04:42.380 --> 04:46.480] And if I can, then maybe we could keep talking into the future.
[04:46.480 --> 04:49.020] And if not, well, that's okay too.
[04:49.020 --> 04:50.260] All right.
[04:50.260 --> 04:51.660] That's enough of that.
[04:51.660 --> 04:54.300] Let's hear from Shell.
[04:54.300 --> 04:57.620] So my name is Shell Mendelssohn.
[04:57.620 --> 05:05.260] And what I do for a living is I'm an ADHD career coach emphasis on career.
[05:05.260 --> 05:07.820] My background is all career.
[05:07.820 --> 05:15.660] I am not and just to qualify that, I am not an ADHD coach, I am a career coach.
[05:15.660 --> 05:17.900] My background is 100% career.
[05:17.900 --> 05:23.340] I started invocational rehabilitation, I'll talk a little bit about that in a bit.
[05:24.060 --> 05:29.540] I help people make decisions about the right, finding the right career fit that matches
[05:29.540 --> 05:35.580] with obviously who they are authentically, what is important to them, what their preferences
[05:35.580 --> 05:42.220] are and their work, what their interests are, obviously, what engages them, what lights
[05:42.220 --> 05:48.260] them up, and finding that fit with our brainwiring.
[05:48.260 --> 05:52.260] So that's where the ADHD part comes in.
[05:52.500 --> 05:53.260] Right, right.
[05:53.260 --> 05:55.740] And you were late diagnosed as well, right?
[05:55.740 --> 05:56.900] Yes, I was.
[05:56.900 --> 05:59.660] I was late diagnosed very late.
[05:59.660 --> 06:01.980] Yeah, when were you diagnosed?
[06:01.980 --> 06:04.060] In my 50s, let's just say that.
[06:04.060 --> 06:08.500] Okay, yeah, yeah, I was diagnosed at 50 as well.
[06:08.500 --> 06:14.140] Yeah, just before my 51st birthday, yeah, just before that.
[06:14.140 --> 06:22.100] So what got you started in the career advising career
[06:22.100 --> 06:29.660] coaching space, like, I assume you didn't, like, you know, go to college and dream of
[06:29.660 --> 06:34.060] being a career coach right from the beginning, I imagine, to tell me about that journey
[06:34.060 --> 06:35.060] a little bit.
[06:35.060 --> 06:42.500] Okay, I'll tell you about that journey, I started over 35 years ago.
[06:42.500 --> 06:45.860] I went to graduate school and I knew I wanted to go into counseling.
[06:45.860 --> 06:53.700] So I ended up in the vocational rehabilitation counseling program, which I was looking
[06:53.700 --> 06:57.260] for a position that I would get hired in afterwards.
[06:57.260 --> 07:02.860] And that was the one that was the most likely for me to get hired while still giving me
[07:02.860 --> 07:04.260] what I wanted.
[07:04.260 --> 07:05.260] Yeah.
[07:05.260 --> 07:06.260] And I did.
[07:06.260 --> 07:11.180] So as a vocary hub counselor, I worked in the private sector for 10 years.
[07:11.180 --> 07:18.900] And I help people find positions within their physical limitations, mostly through the
[07:18.900 --> 07:22.020] workers compensation system.
[07:22.020 --> 07:25.300] And so that system didn't work for me after 10 years.
[07:25.300 --> 07:27.500] I wasn't happy in it anymore.
[07:27.500 --> 07:35.860] And true to form, luckily with my ADHD undiagnosed at the time, I know when to make a shift,
[07:35.860 --> 07:37.700] I just automatically know that.
[07:37.700 --> 07:43.380] So I started making a shift towards working with the general population.
[07:43.380 --> 07:47.860] And I got trained by Richard Bowles who wrote what color is your parachute?
[07:47.860 --> 07:48.860] Sure.
[07:48.860 --> 07:50.180] So he was my mentor.
[07:50.180 --> 07:56.260] He was a person that really taught me the parachute method and just got me excited
[07:56.260 --> 08:01.260] about doing straight up career coaching for many years.
[08:01.260 --> 08:02.260] I did that.
[08:02.260 --> 08:03.260] I loved it.
[08:03.260 --> 08:08.980] And I still, to some extent, used that model.
[08:08.980 --> 08:18.020] And then I ended up getting, again, with my ADHD and creativity decided I was going to
[08:18.020 --> 08:20.180] start a franchise system.
[08:20.180 --> 08:24.820] And that's too long of a story that's like a whole whole thing in and of itself.
[08:24.820 --> 08:28.380] But I started a franchise system called KidsArt.
[08:28.380 --> 08:36.740] And I was the CEO and founder for quite some time until I realized that wasn't really
[08:36.740 --> 08:38.340] my calling.
[08:38.340 --> 08:41.900] It was just something, it was what I call a mission.
[08:41.900 --> 08:45.460] I talk about that in the work I do, like mission versus purpose.
[08:45.460 --> 08:49.500] It fulfilled some of my purpose, but I wasn't happy.
[08:49.500 --> 08:57.140] The reason it wasn't my purpose was anymore or was not a mission anymore was, I was not
[08:57.140 --> 08:58.140] happy in it.
[08:58.140 --> 09:00.740] I was, so I left.
[09:00.740 --> 09:08.260] It's a long story, but I did leave and I went directly back to getting my diagnosis.
[09:08.260 --> 09:14.340] I went directly straight to getting my diagnosis because one of the reasons I left was of all
[09:14.340 --> 09:22.780] the maths that occurred during my stand, I'll say, with KidsArt.
[09:22.780 --> 09:31.660] I really, it was so, so many things that made me realize I was just not happy, but beyond
[09:31.660 --> 09:35.500] that there were things going on with me, I needed to figure out, right?
[09:35.500 --> 09:41.420] So that was when I got the diagnosis and then everything made sense, right?
[09:41.420 --> 09:46.100] As we say, everything falls into place at that point.
[09:46.100 --> 09:51.980] And then I said, okay, my calling really is doing the career work because that's what
[09:51.980 --> 09:52.980] I always love doing.
[09:52.980 --> 09:54.780] I just really love doing that.
[09:54.780 --> 10:01.900] So I went back to just focusing and targeting on working with our tribe of neurodivergent
[10:01.900 --> 10:02.900] folks.
[10:02.900 --> 10:09.380] And that was, I would say that was 16 years ago.
[10:09.380 --> 10:18.300] So I have been doing this work solely with neurodivergent adults and helping them find
[10:18.300 --> 10:20.300] the right career fit.
[10:20.300 --> 10:22.820] That's where I, that's my sweet spot.
[10:22.820 --> 10:24.780] That's what I love doing.
[10:24.780 --> 10:25.780] I love it.
[10:25.780 --> 10:27.380] I never, never bored.
[10:27.380 --> 10:28.380] Anyway.
[10:28.380 --> 10:33.900] Yeah, yeah, no, it sounds, it sounds great and very rewarding.
[10:33.900 --> 10:42.620] You said at one point early on, you knew, you kind of knew what to do and so you changed
[10:42.620 --> 10:43.620] paths.
[10:43.620 --> 10:44.620] Yeah.
[10:44.620 --> 10:49.980] Tell me a little bit about that because I think for ADHD or it's, and of course, also
[10:49.980 --> 10:56.900] not a, not a doctor or anything, but in my own personal experience and journey and it
[10:56.900 --> 11:02.140] kind of continues this way and sometimes, and in the conversations I have with folks and
[11:02.140 --> 11:09.580] the research that I've done, oftentimes we know what to do, but we just don't do it
[11:09.580 --> 11:10.580] for whatever reason.
[11:10.580 --> 11:13.500] We get kind of stuck.
[11:13.500 --> 11:18.980] And so I guess first of all, how did you decide what to do?
[11:18.980 --> 11:23.460] You said you knew what to do, how did, how did you land on that and then how did you
[11:23.460 --> 11:28.340] decide to push forward because, and I'll use the example I often share with friends and
[11:28.340 --> 11:32.860] things is that oftentimes I've, I felt like I'm at not a fork in the road, but like if
[11:32.860 --> 11:39.380] it was like, like an old school rake in the road, like all these different offshoots.
[11:39.380 --> 11:44.060] And what I, what I do is I go down one a little and then I'm like, well, this isn't the
[11:44.060 --> 11:49.620] right way, self-doubt, imposter syndrome, back up, go back down the one I was on before
[11:49.620 --> 11:51.980] and way further, and then I'm like, well, what am I doing here?
[11:51.980 --> 11:53.780] This is probably not a good place.
[11:53.780 --> 11:57.820] Go back, then I go down another a little bit and, and so on.
[11:57.820 --> 12:02.380] And it's usually the same, but I end up going up and down instead of just staying the
[12:02.380 --> 12:07.860] course and going straight into wherever I need to be, what I need to be doing.
[12:07.860 --> 12:14.180] So tell me how you knew and then how you had the wherewithal to, to go that direction.
[12:14.180 --> 12:22.060] Well, that's a little bit more nuanced and I completely agree with, I mean, I, I can
[12:22.060 --> 12:27.100] relate to what you're saying very well because I do try things, I test things out a little
[12:27.100 --> 12:28.700] bit.
[12:28.700 --> 12:31.980] Some things work, some things don't just go in the straight working with the general
[12:31.980 --> 12:39.940] population thing didn't work for me that well, initially until I got my training with
[12:39.940 --> 12:44.580] Richard Bowles and then I realized that I want, I needed a system of some kind.
[12:44.580 --> 12:49.260] So it's like, you have to, I say that the commonality with me or the thing that really
[12:49.260 --> 12:58.820] kept me strong in terms of making shifts was that I knew that my being, I knew what
[12:58.820 --> 13:06.060] my foundation was, my foundation was always career educating people in some way, being an
[13:06.060 --> 13:10.300] educator on some level, being a counselor, helping people.
[13:10.300 --> 13:17.860] So I had like a real foundation and that is what always uplifted me to the next thing
[13:17.860 --> 13:19.180] and help guide me.
[13:19.180 --> 13:25.900] So I always stayed with it on the same kind of path, so to speak, in terms of like I've
[13:25.900 --> 13:30.900] never strayed from career, like the whole career thing and helping people with their careers
[13:30.900 --> 13:34.860] on some level is something I've always done and I was very fortunate.
[13:34.860 --> 13:41.140] I know a lot of people don't have that, but for me, my eight, where my ADHD came into
[13:41.140 --> 13:48.260] it was that I can't be bored in what I'm doing, I just can't and I can feel it early
[13:48.260 --> 13:52.980] on when it's starting to happen and I think that's what really propelled me to make the
[13:52.980 --> 13:59.540] shift and to say, oh my gosh, I've got to start doing something and so I started, you
[13:59.540 --> 14:01.700] know, looking into things.
[14:01.700 --> 14:07.740] Well beyond, I mean, I was in the California system at the time of working in the vocation
[14:07.740 --> 14:13.940] rehabilitation, which is when dinosaurs were on the earth way back when it was, yeah,
[14:13.940 --> 14:20.300] it was like mandatory to offer it for employers for people who couldn't return who were injured
[14:20.300 --> 14:25.060] on the job, could not return to their jobs, but the system was breaking down and I could
[14:25.060 --> 14:28.780] see it was going to become obsolete and I could see it was going to get voted out.
[14:28.780 --> 14:34.300] I could see and ledges, the legislation coming down, you know, we have that, I think we
[14:34.300 --> 14:42.500] have the gift of kind of the 360 degree ability to see things almost psychically, you know,
[14:42.500 --> 14:47.260] the big picture thing that we have and that's something I've always had and I tried to
[14:47.260 --> 14:54.500] warn people and say, look, you better start making some changes and so many people lost
[14:54.500 --> 15:00.980] their jobs and things like that, but I had just moved on, you know, I found other ways
[15:00.980 --> 15:06.500] to keep doing what I was doing on some level and people were coming to me going, how did
[15:06.500 --> 15:07.500] you do that?
[15:07.500 --> 15:13.740] Well, I just knew I had to make, I don't know, I just knew ahead of time, I had to do it.
[15:13.740 --> 15:20.060] So that was kind of it, but finding the right sweet spots, so to speak, didn't happen
[15:20.060 --> 15:29.940] until I got my diagnosis and then and then putting the process together that I use with
[15:29.940 --> 15:37.140] people, that was the next step for me, but it always in the the found within the foundation
[15:37.140 --> 15:44.740] of education, so it was always had you educate, inspire, uplift, help people make the right
[15:44.740 --> 15:49.940] determination for themselves about what kind of career they need to or job or whatever
[15:49.940 --> 15:54.740] they need to be in and then it became with our brainwiring.
[15:54.740 --> 16:01.380] Did you do like specific exercises on, because this is stuff I've done and stuff I do with
[16:01.940 --> 16:10.420] my clients as well, which is, you know, it's like exercises of self-reflection and understanding,
[16:11.060 --> 16:15.540] you know, with different personality or strength assessments and so on, you know,
[16:16.980 --> 16:23.540] did you go through some, obviously with the red parachute, obviously that that or what color
[16:23.540 --> 16:28.980] is my parachute, excuse me, tell me a little bit about like the the process that you went through
[16:29.060 --> 16:36.100] and with the purpose of also helping to inspire the listener to maybe do this for his or herself,
[16:36.100 --> 16:41.780] if they are feeling stuck right now in their career, right? Because the listeners of this
[16:41.780 --> 16:47.940] podcast are like me, like you, late diagnosed adults, right? And so oftentimes, yes, it all
[16:47.940 --> 16:54.660] makes sense, but then it's time maybe and often maybe that diagnosis comes because of anxiety or
[16:54.660 --> 17:01.060] depression or just, you know, bad luck and you want to go, you want to see somebody to talk to
[17:01.060 --> 17:06.020] like a therapist and and then you receive a diagnosis kind of in that that process that's part
[17:06.020 --> 17:12.100] of, you know, how people discover more women that's often with children of course. But so tell me
[17:12.100 --> 17:19.700] a little bit about like how somebody can can tap into their strengths, like for me personally in
[17:19.700 --> 17:26.260] my own sort of journey, I've looked at all of my strengths revolve around communication.
[17:26.980 --> 17:32.660] And so I often say like I have like an umbrella, it's it's the communication umbrella, like yours
[17:32.660 --> 17:38.500] would be many career umbrella, right? And everything else or education, excuse me, yeah, it would be
[17:38.500 --> 17:44.660] probably education, yeah, and career would be part of that. Yeah, so and that fits into that.
[17:44.660 --> 17:49.780] So tell me, you know, tell me about maybe the process that somebody could could do listening
[17:49.780 --> 17:56.260] who feels stuck right now and to figure out what is the, what is that color or what is that umbrella?
[17:56.260 --> 18:04.180] What is that color? Yeah. So when I work, I did parachute coaching for so many years and
[18:04.820 --> 18:12.740] basically what I found with people with ADHD after I got my diagnosis is that it didn't work
[18:12.740 --> 18:17.860] anymore. It didn't work as well because it was too confusing. It was there was just too many
[18:17.860 --> 18:23.460] things to kind of figure out and things that were left out that we needed to take into consideration.
[18:23.460 --> 18:28.820] And I was always having to embellish and embellish and do graphics and do all kinds of stuff and add
[18:28.820 --> 18:36.980] to it. I finally realized I need to just do the frickin book on this. And so I did it's I have a
[18:37.940 --> 18:45.060] can I plug it? Can I? Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Okay, it's the it's called unlock your career path,
[18:45.780 --> 18:51.460] a course for neurodivergent adults and teens. And it literally will take you through everything
[18:51.460 --> 18:56.660] you're asking me that it will take you through all of that with a lot of self-reflection.
[18:57.380 --> 19:04.580] So I don't do the thing is it's new the process is always going to be nuanced with our brains.
[19:04.580 --> 19:10.500] There's always some things that will work and some things that won't work. So certain exercises
[19:10.500 --> 19:16.980] people are not going to want to do. And I don't know how this sits with you and it's not any shade
[19:16.980 --> 19:23.300] on people that do assessments, but I don't do them. I stopped doing them many years ago. I used to do
[19:23.300 --> 19:29.460] them. I did them for years. I didn't find for what we do that it's helpful. Interesting.
[19:29.460 --> 19:37.220] That's fine. Yeah, I mean, I find the thing I always I mean, I'm always skeptical about things
[19:37.220 --> 19:42.740] anyway, but I and I know and I always preface like when I talk about any sort of, you know,
[19:42.740 --> 19:47.060] Myers-Briggs or disk or whatever assessments I always, you know, preface by saying like it's
[19:47.060 --> 19:52.580] unscientific. We know that it's unscientific, but oftentimes the benefit of doing them and doing
[19:52.580 --> 19:57.140] in my opinion and doing multiple is without spending a ton of money or anything on them,
[19:57.140 --> 20:05.380] yeah, I mean, you can find a lot for free, but you do them and it shines a light on identifying,
[20:05.380 --> 20:11.700] say, the strengths that you have that you know you already have deep down inside or you just
[20:11.700 --> 20:17.460] haven't confirmed them or you haven't landed on them. And so the benefit I find is that if you do
[20:17.460 --> 20:21.220] multiple and I've done them all, I think if you do them not all, but you've done multiple
[20:21.220 --> 20:27.300] strengths assessments or profile or personality assessments or whatever, you can start to see the
[20:27.300 --> 20:33.060] the similarities between the results that may say things with different words, but mean the same
[20:33.060 --> 20:38.660] thing. And that's kind of part of the process I've used to try to land to land on sort of communication
[20:39.460 --> 20:47.460] as a kind of umbrella. Okay, so let me just say that you asked me about career. This is about career,
[20:47.460 --> 20:54.580] it's not about yeah. So for career, the assessments don't work as well. They just don't
[20:54.580 --> 21:02.980] for our brainwaring because it is so nuanced and because people really need to have ways to pull
[21:02.980 --> 21:13.540] this information together by first exploring themselves and being very truthful with themselves
[21:13.940 --> 21:20.820] not comparing themselves to other people and getting rid of the noise that's all those voices
[21:20.820 --> 21:26.740] of other people in your life and in your head. We have both. Yeah. We've got them in our head and
[21:26.740 --> 21:32.260] we've got them outside of ourselves that are pulling us in different directions and saying,
[21:32.260 --> 21:36.580] why don't you try this? Have you ever thought of that? Have you ever blah blah blah blah blah blah?
[21:36.580 --> 21:45.060] So this is what I do is a very self, it's strictly all about me. It's not comparing you to anyone
[21:45.060 --> 21:51.940] else. Okay. And what I found with assessments is that right away when you take one there,
[21:51.940 --> 21:57.380] sometimes they're asking you questions that aren't even relevant. Like having you pick two things
[21:57.380 --> 22:04.100] that don't even make sense. Right. And then comparing you to people who are very often not necessarily
[22:04.100 --> 22:13.060] neurodivergent. Right. Yeah. So then you get, you might get like a little hint of some things,
[22:13.620 --> 22:19.380] but it's not going to point you, it's not going to pull out of you who you are and where you're
[22:19.380 --> 22:27.220] really going to shine. What does pull that out of you? Well, what I was going to say is the process
[22:27.220 --> 22:35.940] the unlock, uh, career galaxy slash inspired by parachute. Um, really does because it just
[22:36.900 --> 22:43.380] asks you questions. It takes away all the outside influence that you might have. Yeah.
[22:43.380 --> 22:47.380] I put people in what I call the career bubble and I tell them while they're working with me,
[22:47.380 --> 22:53.780] they can't really talk to their spouse or their partner or all any of their friends or family
[22:53.860 --> 23:00.420] about what they're coming up with during this time. Because the second they get an eye roll,
[23:00.420 --> 23:06.100] the second they get about, have you thought about the second they get any little inclination that
[23:06.100 --> 23:10.900] they could, that there's something else that they might consider. Yeah. Other than what they're
[23:10.900 --> 23:17.140] really authentically coming up with, that's going to pull them off track. So what, like, what,
[23:17.140 --> 23:22.580] what is the, like, what would be the starting point then besides like right away, I mean,
[23:22.580 --> 23:27.620] obviously buying your book and or hiring you, but, but let's say, let's say, let's say,
[23:27.620 --> 23:33.300] you're my coach, right now, like, let's, let's, let's put Dave on the microscope. Like,
[23:33.300 --> 23:38.260] let's say I came to you and said, you know, shall help me. I, I'm stuck. I don't know what to do
[23:38.260 --> 23:43.540] with my life. And you mentioned earlier about vision and purpose. So like, I'm happy to, yeah,
[23:43.540 --> 23:50.820] I'm happy to share that. So, um, so basically, I don't talk about strengths as much as I talk
[23:50.820 --> 23:56.820] first about skills. Okay. And it's, remember, it's all about your preference. It's all about
[23:56.820 --> 24:02.660] the things that light you up about the your must, what I can call your must halves. Okay. Yeah.
[24:02.660 --> 24:10.100] The things that are just, you know, red line it, you've got to do these things or consider these
[24:10.100 --> 24:15.940] things first before you make a decision. That's why everything's in writing. You have it in front of
[24:16.100 --> 24:20.900] you at the end. But basically, we start with what are the skills that you prefer to use?
[24:20.900 --> 24:28.980] And I have different ways that we get to identifying and prioritizing your top skills.
[24:28.980 --> 24:33.460] All right. So yeah, try me on it. I want to, I want to do it. I want to be a guinea pig.
[24:34.340 --> 24:40.740] Well, I can't, it's hard to do unless you kind of go through the exercises. So there's some,
[24:40.740 --> 24:46.180] but you know, the exercise, there's different ways that we, we used to go about it. But
[24:47.140 --> 24:52.660] part of it is we write stories and see and look at the skills that come out of those stories about
[24:52.660 --> 24:59.060] things that you really enjoy. Events that you, uh, very positive events in your life, not,
[24:59.060 --> 25:05.140] not anything specific, but it could be from childhood, it could be from anywhere. So I take people
[25:05.220 --> 25:10.180] back to their childhoods, things that they were, and, and, and it starts with what are the
[25:10.180 --> 25:14.740] activities that you enjoyed using as a child, the things that you maybe got away from,
[25:15.700 --> 25:21.860] the things that you remember doing as a kid, uh, activities, you know, the fun things that you
[25:21.860 --> 25:27.780] love doing, and no matter what it was, and excluding nothing, you know, because it all,
[25:28.500 --> 25:37.620] it all sort of speaks to at some point who you are and what really intrinsically lights you up,
[25:37.620 --> 25:44.020] and that is not something that will ever go away. There's always like a basis there,
[25:44.580 --> 25:49.940] and people, when they go back and they look at all that stuff, they forget, because you know,
[25:49.940 --> 25:56.740] with ADHD, with being your divergent, many of us just forget about the things that we've done in
[25:56.740 --> 26:02.500] our lives, because we get so focused in on whatever it is that we have to do, or wherever,
[26:03.140 --> 26:09.140] wherever we're at. And we don't stop and celebrate the wins, or, or recognize the good stuff that
[26:09.140 --> 26:14.980] you do. We don't recognize it, but we forget that, oh, God, I was so, I loved doing this thing,
[26:14.980 --> 26:24.020] and I was so good at it. And, I was an extra in a Hollywood movie. I loved acting, and I loved,
[26:24.500 --> 26:30.020] like, and I was a joker. I loved, like, doing, like, fun, but, like, practical jokes are getting
[26:30.020 --> 26:34.580] with the class clown, getting people laughing. I loved writing stories, creative writing, and things.
[26:35.300 --> 26:42.340] Now, you know, fast forward all these decades, you know, I love delivering keynote presentations
[26:42.340 --> 26:48.900] in front of audiences. I now understand myself enough to understand that, oh, I never got dopamine,
[26:49.380 --> 26:54.020] and standing in front of audiences, or getting laughs from people, or networking and meeting people,
[26:54.020 --> 27:00.180] that's why I wrote a book about networking. It's because I get all this energy from the people
[27:00.180 --> 27:08.100] that I meet, because I'm also extraverted, that I get this dopamine rush. And so it helps me understand.
[27:08.100 --> 27:12.260] And I also, like, I trained with Second City in Toronto, and so I have a pretty deep background in
[27:12.260 --> 27:18.340] improv and comedy and performance. And it all fits with what you're doing, right?
[27:19.220 --> 27:25.700] You're putting it out. Yeah. So that's, that's what I'm saying. It doesn't have to be, it's not
[27:25.700 --> 27:31.540] literal. None of it is necessarily literal. It's just that you need to understand what those
[27:31.540 --> 27:38.580] things are and go back and relive some of that, to pull some of that out in the beginning.
[27:38.580 --> 27:45.540] That's the beginning piece of what we do. And then it goes from there, and then you start,
[27:45.540 --> 27:50.740] you start breaking it down into who are the people that you, what are the characteristics of those
[27:50.740 --> 27:56.180] people that you enjoy, that are important for you to work with, and the ones that don't, we,
[27:56.180 --> 28:02.180] we start with what you don't like. So a lot of times, like, who do you not want to work with?
[28:02.180 --> 28:07.140] Remember those people, and it's not hard for people to remember, so they don't want to work. So
[28:07.140 --> 28:14.580] it's easier to list what you don't like, and then convert that to what is important to you,
[28:14.900 --> 28:22.020] what your must-hams are, and then to prioritize those things. So another big piece of it,
[28:22.020 --> 28:28.980] what are the conditions that you need to have? And a lot of talk is happening right now around
[28:28.980 --> 28:33.940] working conditions for people, divergent people. There's a lot of talk about that.
[28:34.420 --> 28:45.220] Well, that goes well beyond just a few, a few little shifts in your workplace. It's really about
[28:45.220 --> 28:54.180] knowing and being aware of how different conditions impact you, and really understanding that at a very
[28:54.180 --> 29:01.780] deep level, and we go through that. And then, then it's going through all the industries, special
[29:01.780 --> 29:07.300] interests. I call them fields of fascination, things that, you know, areas that maybe you had
[29:07.300 --> 29:13.220] thought about like acting, like maybe doing something in the movies or doing, just being in certain
[29:13.940 --> 29:18.740] around certain kinds of people who are doing certain kinds of things that really inspire you.
[29:18.740 --> 29:25.700] You mentioned dopamine. Yeah, you've got to have that on a fairly regular basis, which comes from
[29:25.700 --> 29:35.060] engagement, and feeling really interested beyond just the norm, something that will be sustainable
[29:35.060 --> 29:41.060] over a long period of time. Yeah, I think that's why like ADHDers, and I'm generalizing, but I do
[29:41.060 --> 29:47.860] understand that like, you know, like EMT workers or police or military are often, you know, tend to
[29:47.860 --> 29:54.980] lean towards ADHD often because of like any type of job or pilots because, you know, I interviewed
[29:54.980 --> 30:01.380] like Dr. Bob Dempsey who was the 16 years, he was the director of the International Space
[30:01.380 --> 30:09.140] Station for NASA before he was diagnosed. Wow. So obviously, he was juggling a lot of tasks there,
[30:09.140 --> 30:17.300] but even he, I mean, he was great at it. He was great at it. He now, yeah. So we've gone through,
[30:17.300 --> 30:24.020] let's say, this process of kind of nailing down some of some of our sweet spots, as you've described
[30:24.180 --> 30:31.380] here, it's reminiscent a little bit of like Iki guy, are you familiar with Iki guy? I know, I do know what
[30:31.380 --> 30:37.220] you're talking about, yeah. And I have I have Iki guy like on Y squirrels that people can check out
[30:37.220 --> 30:42.260] because it is sort of an exercise of going through and determining sort of the things that you love
[30:42.260 --> 30:48.020] and what people would be willing to pay you for to try to connect it to, you know, it's more than that,
[30:48.020 --> 30:54.660] but so once you've kind of, because as I asked you earlier, and this is, you know, asking from
[30:54.660 --> 31:01.860] maybe my own selfish reasons, but like tapping in and recognizing the skills rather than strengths,
[31:01.860 --> 31:05.140] as you mentioned, which I think is great. Well, strengths are, okay, let me just,
[31:05.140 --> 31:13.860] they're similar. I clarify that. The reason I say skills versus, versus strengths, strengths
[31:13.860 --> 31:18.900] are important, but only if you enjoy using the skills associated with those strengths.
[31:19.780 --> 31:24.100] Because a lot of people end up doing things that, yeah, they're great at it, but they hate it.
[31:25.060 --> 31:32.020] And they get, they get pinned, they get put into these positions, you're so good at this,
[31:32.020 --> 31:37.140] I want you to do more of this, and they hate it. And that's, that is the road to burnout.
[31:37.860 --> 31:43.620] Yes. So that's on the road to burnout right there. When you get paid for doing something that you
[31:43.620 --> 31:51.220] don't enjoy doing. So that that's, it's important to clear the way. And that would be a big no,
[31:51.220 --> 31:56.340] that would be on the bottom of the list. It would be something like a straight that you don't
[31:56.340 --> 32:03.460] enjoy using could be something that you could spend maybe five percent or less of the workday
[32:03.460 --> 32:09.540] doing because it's just part of the mix. But it's not something that you're going to be doing
[32:09.620 --> 32:15.380] all the time, or else you end up burned out. Yeah. And that makes complete, that makes complete
[32:15.380 --> 32:20.900] sense. Thank you for clarifying that. So, um, but like, let's, let's say that I want to,
[32:21.460 --> 32:26.340] okay, so a few years ago, before I was diagnosed, of course, I decided I was going to
[32:27.860 --> 32:33.460] really take what I've learned about comedy. And I've always wanted to stand up. And so I was
[32:33.460 --> 32:37.460] like, I'm just going to take us, I'll stand up one-on-one class so I could meet the others.
[32:38.340 --> 32:42.580] So I would have people to hold the accountable advice versus we could go out to the open mics
[32:42.580 --> 32:48.180] together. And it worked. And I hit an open mic, usually with the same person. And I did five
[32:48.180 --> 32:55.940] open mics in five or five weeks. And plus a couple more. And I did pretty well. But I'm also
[32:55.940 --> 33:04.020] realistic enough to know that I'm also 53. And getting back to that original question I was asking
[33:04.020 --> 33:11.300] you about, like, at what point does one say, you know what? This is, I know I'm funny, funny
[33:11.300 --> 33:17.700] looking at least. I know I'm great at, at, at this stuff and performance and reading audiences
[33:17.700 --> 33:24.980] and all this stuff. So I know I could be great at it. But I'm also 53 with two kids in college,
[33:24.980 --> 33:31.780] a wife who's retiring in a few years. And I'm like, is, and I, you know, don't have the, the daddy
[33:31.780 --> 33:42.660] warbucks, uh, nepo baby money that I can rely on to, to be able to bankroll taking sectors.
[33:42.660 --> 33:47.860] So tell me about that. Yeah. So that's part of it. Like we have to look at the bottom line of what
[33:47.860 --> 33:53.780] you need to bring in every month, like in terms of bills. So this is not something, this is not
[33:53.780 --> 34:00.580] trying the sky stuff that we do. It's very, very important to get the full picture of. And it,
[34:00.580 --> 34:06.420] and it means that in the end, what you eventually, what I call the cream rising to the top
[34:07.300 --> 34:12.740] are the things that are becoming very clear as you're going through. It's not always something
[34:12.740 --> 34:18.580] that hits you in the face. It's not always a very definite answer. It's going to be nuanced. It
[34:18.580 --> 34:24.260] might require one or two different things that you do. Like this on the side for a while while
[34:24.260 --> 34:31.060] you're doing this, practically to make money. There's just different ways that people will start out
[34:31.060 --> 34:36.740] to sort of make sure that their, their lives are still in balance, you know, and they're having,
[34:36.740 --> 34:41.940] if they have to take care of. And generally what happens is people will find ways to get
[34:42.740 --> 34:48.020] what they need. In other words, they may need to do some more training in order to do what they
[34:48.020 --> 34:54.180] really want to do. They may need to go back to school and, you know, but in a very specific thing,
[34:54.180 --> 35:00.500] not in a general way. It's got whatever kind of training it will be very, very specific. And it
[35:00.500 --> 35:08.100] will lead towards work. It will lead towards, you know, employment at some point. But it, that's always
[35:08.100 --> 35:13.700] like one of the things that comes out of it. Like, but it's also not spending money on pie in this
[35:13.700 --> 35:22.500] guy kind of what I call shiny object courses. Right. A lot of people will spend a fortune on those
[35:22.500 --> 35:28.660] things. Look back, if you could add all that money out, but kind of the glasses you took and all
[35:28.660 --> 35:34.980] the things that you just put on the shelf. You never did anything with or maybe got an athlete
[35:34.980 --> 35:40.740] through. Yeah. And nowadays, like as a recovering marketer, like, you know, and always ethical.
[35:40.740 --> 35:47.620] I mean, there's so much snake oil now and so much BS online to the point that I've actually
[35:47.620 --> 35:53.940] started calling people out. But that's a different story. I do, I do too, by the way. Yeah, I call
[35:53.940 --> 35:58.820] it my wall of shame. It's on my LinkedIn profile. And I actually tag the people that are trying to
[35:58.820 --> 36:06.020] scam me and call them out. Yeah. And I get I constantly get people searching for these,
[36:06.020 --> 36:10.660] these people's names when they solicit them. And when they search it, they end up finding one of my
[36:10.660 --> 36:16.660] posts from two years ago and think and send me a message to thank me for the message at a time.
[36:16.660 --> 36:23.860] So I'm all for calling out the the BSers out there. So for somebody that I guess the the challenge.
[36:24.420 --> 36:29.220] I'm often so one of the most dangerous things and I, you know, listeners of the show have heard me
[36:29.220 --> 36:35.940] say this multiple times. But one of the dangerous things about a late diagnosis of ADHD, not to
[36:35.940 --> 36:42.180] say don't get diagnosed. I mean, go get diagnosed and get treatment. Absolutely. Absolutely. But
[36:42.180 --> 36:46.900] one of the dangerous things about learning that you have ADHD later is or whatever is you start to
[36:46.900 --> 36:51.540] look at the past and you start kicking eating yourself up because you didn't do this or didn't do
[36:51.540 --> 36:58.420] that. And I'm not suggesting people do that. However, since the listener of this show is a late
[36:58.420 --> 37:06.020] diagnosed adult like us, I'm 53. You know, if you're 20, yeah, change courses, try something
[37:06.020 --> 37:11.460] different. Go back to school and study something different. But at 53, it's like, I should be thinking
[37:11.460 --> 37:16.980] about retirement and not, oh my God, I should just completely change course and go back to school
[37:16.980 --> 37:22.740] and spend tens of thousands of dollars in debt or a degree and something. Like, how do you know
[37:23.300 --> 37:28.900] it's the right choice with that? I mean, obviously, there's nothing definite. There's no crystal ball.
[37:28.900 --> 37:36.100] But how do you know you're you've chosen that right fork in the road? Yeah, I hear what you're saying.
[37:36.100 --> 37:43.460] Sorry. By doing a lot of the things that you should have done before, but didn't. And now you're
[37:43.460 --> 37:49.860] going to do them before you make these decisions. Yeah. And that would include not just research,
[37:49.860 --> 37:56.020] but having conversations with people, joining organizations, getting real clarity.
[37:56.900 --> 38:02.740] Like, people, I think when they go through the process, I do, the biggest thing that comes out
[38:02.740 --> 38:09.380] of it is confidence. Like, I just ended a class last night and every single person said they
[38:09.380 --> 38:15.380] feel 100% more confident in their ability to make the right choice. They have the tools. They know
[38:15.380 --> 38:23.460] what to do. If they haven't done it yet, they have accountability to continue to do it before
[38:23.460 --> 38:30.020] they make the choice to either go to do the next step, which could involve doing some kind of
[38:30.020 --> 38:35.860] training. It could be just a certification. It could be getting a certificate. It doesn't necessarily
[38:35.860 --> 38:42.740] mean going back to school. It could mean, and I always say, what are the alternative routes to
[38:42.740 --> 38:49.140] going back to school? When you talk to people, you know, people get into their fields to do things
[38:49.140 --> 38:57.060] differently. It's not always about going back to school. So it's really doing the work that
[38:57.060 --> 39:03.860] should have been done earlier in life, but doing it from the ground up. And finally,
[39:05.380 --> 39:11.140] realizing and connecting with what it is that you're supposed to be doing, which is accelerating.
[39:11.140 --> 39:16.020] It's never too late for that. I mean, you could be spending your time saying, oh, I should be
[39:16.020 --> 39:23.620] retired and then not retire and not be able to retire. Or you can figure out, you know, how you can
[39:23.620 --> 39:30.420] live your life in a way that's going to be fun and exciting and learning and expanding and growing.
[39:31.540 --> 39:39.460] And maybe do something even part time that you really enjoy. It doesn't matter. There's
[39:39.460 --> 39:43.860] something different ways to do it. It's just that you won't know what those ways are.
[39:45.060 --> 39:52.660] You won't know until you explore and talk to people and find out and do, you know, the
[39:52.660 --> 39:58.020] must-haves prioritize what's important to you all the way. What is really truly important?
[39:59.140 --> 40:06.980] Lock the noise out. What do I want? So I always tell people being very, very selfish
[40:07.700 --> 40:15.780] in this. Be completely selfish. It's okay. Most of us don't know how to be when it comes to
[40:16.820 --> 40:22.020] this kind of thing. It's like, oh, what will my spouse say? What will my friends say? What will
[40:22.020 --> 40:27.700] everyone say? I want to please. We're kind of people, please. Are we? I mean, definitely people,
[40:27.700 --> 40:34.900] please. We're people, please. So it's very, very, it's not an easy ask when I say block the noise
[40:35.860 --> 40:41.860] out. What do I want? And I have to remind people. And there's a part of us that will always resist doing
[40:41.860 --> 40:49.540] that. There's that resistance. I call it the safe keeping cell. That safe keeping part of us is
[40:49.540 --> 41:00.500] always going to say, yes, but yeah. So I literally, I started it rough. I literally just did a workshop
[41:01.060 --> 41:08.100] this week for a client like 13 people sales team for a company. And I speak, you know,
[41:08.100 --> 41:13.460] one of my presentations and workshops is it's called the master communicator secret weapon.
[41:13.460 --> 41:18.820] And the reveal don't tell anyone. It's improv. But it's not about like, it's not about everybody
[41:18.820 --> 41:23.700] becoming a comedian and taking an improv class, but rather using tools and core strategies
[41:23.700 --> 41:29.220] and concepts from the art of improv to improve how you communicate with people. And that includes
[41:29.220 --> 41:35.220] prospects and clients and friends and family even. But when you said nice, but I talk about like,
[41:35.220 --> 41:40.660] I use the nice, this nice framework that came up with years ago, but I use nice and instead of
[41:40.660 --> 41:46.340] yes and like an improv, partly because you can't approve every concept, every crazy idea at work.
[41:46.340 --> 41:51.140] You can't say yes and to everything, but you can say nice and empower your people and make them feel
[41:51.140 --> 41:56.180] hurt and slow yourself down from from blocking it or rejecting it or saying that's a stupid idea.
[41:56.740 --> 42:02.020] And then that's so I do an exercise where the group do nice and and we go through that together.
[42:02.020 --> 42:07.700] And then on the flip side with then we try nice, but and on the slide because I love designing my slides
[42:07.700 --> 42:14.660] really well on the slide, I have nice, but and then I add an arrow that goes to the T pointing out
[42:14.660 --> 42:22.420] that it's one T and don't call HR. So we're talking about nice, but with one T because if you say nice
[42:22.420 --> 42:28.180] but with two T's, that's a call to HR, but when you go through this nice, but exercise like you're
[42:28.180 --> 42:33.860] saying, you're basically blocking the person, you're saying you're basically saying no nice, but we
[42:33.860 --> 42:39.300] don't do that nice, but I can't, you know, I don't have the money, nice, but blah, blah, blah and
[42:39.300 --> 42:44.020] and it blocks, but it blocks that. So anyway, we're not going to tangent there. Sorry.
[42:44.740 --> 42:50.340] No, I mean, I the thing that I love listening to you is how excited you are about what you do. I mean,
[42:50.420 --> 42:55.380] I feel the same way. So that's, that's where I look, I look for that and people when they start to
[42:55.380 --> 43:01.380] talk about certain things, certain things that come are coming up for them, the animation in their
[43:01.380 --> 43:08.420] voice, the energy and you clearly love what you do. And what I see is that you tie so much of
[43:08.420 --> 43:14.740] what you truly love, like the improv stuff into what you're doing. You bring it all in. Yeah.
[43:14.740 --> 43:19.860] And that's so important. These are what you're talking about are the things that people really
[43:20.340 --> 43:25.940] don't do because they get into this. I've got to just do this thing to make money. And then
[43:25.940 --> 43:30.980] they feel stressed, the stress comes on the anxiety comes on. What if I get fired? What a
[43:30.980 --> 43:37.460] little, you know, when it comes to like for my own, like I've been working for myself now for 13
[43:37.460 --> 43:44.820] years. And so long before COVID and all that stuff. And it's been a, you know, it's a rollercoaster
[43:44.980 --> 43:49.620] as also the partnerships or entrepreneurship or businesses or even careers. It's a rollercoaster.
[43:51.780 --> 43:59.460] My struggle is in business development. And partly it's, it's my own, I know I'm great at what I do
[43:59.460 --> 44:05.380] and not being cocky about it. I know I am. I've got 100, almost 150 recommendations on my LinkedIn
[44:05.380 --> 44:12.340] profile to prove it. But my struggle is often just finding the business because I'm a people
[44:12.340 --> 44:18.260] pleaser to a fault because I hate rejection. You know, and the people pleasing comes from trauma
[44:18.260 --> 44:24.580] that I face as a result of undiagnosed ADHD and parents and that kind of thing. So at all, you can
[44:24.580 --> 44:33.620] easily, I can easily connect the dots now through therapy, of course. So, you know, when you're,
[44:33.620 --> 44:42.980] I don't have like a business manager to sell my services. And I feel, and when I speak with
[44:42.980 --> 44:48.340] people, I should, I should be like, book solid. However, I go through a lot of dips.
[44:50.340 --> 44:57.940] Any ideas during those dips, what I could do to help improve my own business that way to get
[44:57.940 --> 45:04.340] the word out more, because I think a lot of, a lot of people who are going through career
[45:04.340 --> 45:10.260] transitions or change, maybe they've changed course. And they've worked with you on this. And
[45:11.700 --> 45:17.060] they've maybe taken some training or whatever, or they've done informational, you know, meetings with
[45:17.060 --> 45:21.540] people in the industries. They've attended those, you know, networking events, which is all
[45:21.620 --> 45:28.980] amazing, great advice. They've done all that. What, what next to help move the needle for them?
[45:30.900 --> 45:37.380] Well, I don't like marketing any more than you do. I'm the same way. I mean, I,
[45:39.380 --> 45:44.420] I don't know how much I should say here, but I think just you and me, don't worry,
[45:44.420 --> 45:50.500] Michelle, it's only you me. Oh, it is. Okay. Just you and me. No, no. How much? You might need to,
[45:50.500 --> 45:57.780] you might need to edit this part. Yeah. My business was thriving before January.
[46:00.340 --> 46:06.820] And you know what happened in January. Yeah. And I think that's happened to almost to
[46:07.780 --> 46:13.700] people that are not digging in services that are absolutely 100% necessary. Yeah.
[46:15.380 --> 46:20.740] And it's been, it's been a rollercoaster for me too. So I really understand that.
[46:21.460 --> 46:29.460] But I, and I don't take it personally, necessarily, because yeah, it was, I was 100%
[46:31.460 --> 46:37.860] you know, I was booked solid, not even an issue before then. And all of a sudden it took us
[46:37.860 --> 46:43.940] very deep drop. And I think people just aren't talking about it. I don't think, I think it's
[46:43.940 --> 46:50.500] happening to everybody. So I don't think it's necessarily you. I just think that you can't,
[46:50.500 --> 46:57.300] you can never stop talking about what you do and engaging people. And what you're doing with
[46:57.300 --> 47:02.820] podcasting. And I find that being on being interviewed helps because people really get to know
[47:02.820 --> 47:08.500] you. They just want to know who you are and what you have to offer. And that, what better way
[47:08.580 --> 47:14.340] than having people get to know you through the airwaves or hearing you on it. Yeah. You know,
[47:14.340 --> 47:22.100] I would interview with other people like I'm doing with you. I think that is really the best way
[47:22.100 --> 47:27.460] to do it. And then of course, you have to have the SEO person. And you have to have,
[47:28.500 --> 47:34.820] I do all that. I mean, like, let's see, that's all there's. And if you talk to your SEO person,
[47:34.820 --> 47:41.380] Google is crazy now. I mean, it really, you know, he'll say, oh, my gosh, it's just I have to
[47:41.380 --> 47:47.220] start all over every other week. I don't know what's going on. So SEO does play into it.
[47:48.100 --> 47:52.100] And for the listener, that means search engine optimization, which means that it's something
[47:52.100 --> 47:58.340] is going for what you do. Hopefully you're coming up. And to be clear on this, this is something I
[47:58.340 --> 48:03.940] advise my clients on to you because I was a speaker for Google for six years. So I taught thousands of
[48:03.940 --> 48:08.260] people how to grow their businesses online on behalf of Google representing Google.
[48:08.820 --> 48:15.060] So and I traveled internationally doing this. And so I know SEO search engine marketing,
[48:15.060 --> 48:23.860] SEM. And nowadays too, with the hot like quick adoption of things like chat GPT and other AI
[48:23.860 --> 48:31.460] agents and AI tools. If like, if you go to yscrolls.com right now and you scroll to the bottom of the page,
[48:31.460 --> 48:37.860] you'll see a message down there just for the AI bots. Because and it says if you're a human,
[48:37.860 --> 48:45.460] you can stop reading now. That that is being used to teach and train AI on who I am or who
[48:45.460 --> 48:52.020] why what Wise Squirrelss is. Because if you look at like Google analytics and you start looking at the
[48:52.020 --> 48:59.780] inbound traffic to your websites, you'll hopefully you'll see chat GPT among others perplexity or,
[48:59.780 --> 49:05.780] you know, all the others Gemini sending traffic to your website. So somebody is on chat GPT now
[49:05.780 --> 49:12.580] asking for a career coach or that they have ADHD and they're they're searching for a career coach.
[49:13.220 --> 49:19.780] You can you should be checking that to make sure that shell is coming up. My struggle too sometimes
[49:19.780 --> 49:30.980] is deciding. Okay. What am I on chat GPT? I know I'm perplexity. I probably am pretty strong there.
[49:30.980 --> 49:38.020] But yeah, I mean, the thing is you were asking about what are some of the things. I think you just
[49:38.020 --> 49:43.380] need to keep doing what you're doing and not give up. Honestly, and there are dips. I mean, I've
[49:43.380 --> 49:51.540] had some serious dips before I finally found my my sweet spot in terms of what I do and
[49:52.980 --> 50:00.260] getting business basically to having my business thrive. It was very, very up and down and very
[50:00.260 --> 50:06.020] choppy and it was but the one thing I would never give up is working on my own and I worked on my own
[50:06.020 --> 50:14.340] for the past 30 years. You know, I have I cannot work for other people. I realize that I cannot
[50:14.340 --> 50:20.180] work for other people. I just updated my personal business card. You can see it on camera here.
[50:20.900 --> 50:27.380] Oh yeah. And there you go. And then it's got a QR code to a secret video and page. But the
[50:27.380 --> 50:33.060] business card for those listening, it says I solve problems and this is kind of what I've landed on
[50:33.060 --> 50:41.460] is when I'm networking and speaking with other professionals at events and things, they may ask me
[50:41.460 --> 50:46.900] what I do and I try to turn it around and ask them, you know, I say I sell problems and they say,
[50:46.900 --> 50:51.300] well, what do you mean? What kind of problems? And I say like, well, what are some communication
[50:51.300 --> 50:57.220] problems you're facing? And at work, you know, I'm not prying on their personal life. And if they come
[50:57.220 --> 51:03.380] back and say, oh, you know, actually, yeah, we've had struggle with retention or culture or
[51:04.180 --> 51:10.420] sales or whatever. If it's something that I have the knowledge of how I can help them, that's
[51:10.420 --> 51:16.020] when I can say, well, I can, I've helped clients with that kind of problem. I'd love to, you know,
[51:16.020 --> 51:23.540] let's chat more afterwards, grab a coffee and I can fill you in. Or if it's a problem I can't solve,
[51:23.540 --> 51:28.820] this is the big part about, my book is called New Business Networking. I always make it a point
[51:28.820 --> 51:34.100] to then say, oh, you know, I have ADHD and I'm stuck in my career. Well, maybe I can't help you
[51:34.100 --> 51:41.140] with that, but I know who can. And that's when I make an introduction to Shell, right? So, and that's
[51:41.140 --> 51:45.300] something I encourage everybody to always be doing is to be mindful of the people in their
[51:45.300 --> 51:50.740] communities, in their networks. And I think to your point, I mean, I think everybody struggles
[51:50.740 --> 51:57.780] professionally from time to time and all businesses, they all have been flow. So it's a rollercoaster
[51:57.780 --> 52:02.900] certainly. And I'm certainly in the speaking business, you know, I'm feeling the pain of the
[52:02.900 --> 52:09.700] tariffs. And as a generic in now, it breaks my heart, but I completely understand why Canadians
[52:09.700 --> 52:16.660] are pissed. I am too. And I live here. Yeah, Canada, okay. No, no, sorry, I live in the, no, I live in
[52:16.660 --> 52:23.140] the States. I live in Nashville, but I'm, but I'm Canadian and, and now also American. So, yeah,
[52:23.700 --> 52:32.020] but I think people who don't, who are, uh, honestly, I feel like everybody, most professionals are
[52:32.020 --> 52:38.420] going through this and it's impacting everybody. The whole terror thing because people are like,
[52:38.420 --> 52:45.620] do I do this or do I pay my bills? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's really, it's understandable,
[52:46.180 --> 52:51.220] but it's kind of like, well, like it for me, I go, well, you can stay in this job that you might
[52:51.220 --> 52:59.620] get fired in, but you want to have, do you want to have, uh, the tools? And do you want to know
[52:59.620 --> 53:06.500] what is the right fit for you and be able to describe that to a T and articulate it 100% and then
[53:06.500 --> 53:13.060] be above the cut of people that you're competing with. Or do you just want to stay in this,
[53:13.940 --> 53:20.340] this situation and hope for the best, you know? So, yeah, I mean, you just have to sort of keep
[53:20.340 --> 53:26.340] screaming, I think not screaming, but telling people like you do, because what you do is very bad,
[53:26.340 --> 53:33.300] it's super valuable, it's important. And it really, in being relevant, you know, let people,
[53:33.300 --> 53:39.780] you have to keep letting people know how that what you do is so relevant to their lives.
[53:39.780 --> 53:46.980] It's important that they consider these things like, okay, pay the bills or do that, but if you're
[53:46.980 --> 53:51.700] talking about paying the bills and you're on the verge of getting fired and with no backup without
[53:51.700 --> 53:58.900] knowing what the heck you're going to do next. Yeah, then you're in a weak position right there,
[53:59.540 --> 54:05.460] right? Yeah. Very weak. Whereas people, when I work with them, they are not weak because they have
[54:05.460 --> 54:12.420] the tools to make that pivot to do what they need to do to move on into to the next thing.
[54:12.420 --> 54:20.900] With ADHD, it's got to be something that you're you enjoy doing. It has to have some level of engagement
[54:20.900 --> 54:27.700] for you. Yes, like this podcast. That's why I love doing what I'm doing. I can tell. I always say to
[54:28.180 --> 54:34.740] partners. I always say to partners like, look at what you're doing. Your park, I mean,
[54:34.740 --> 54:39.620] obviously you love doing that. And that's something that you've added to the mix of whatever else
[54:39.620 --> 54:44.980] you were doing before. You've added that to the mix. That's the foundation, right? So you talk
[54:44.980 --> 54:52.740] about your foundation was, I don't know, what was it? Communications is a big foundation for a lot of
[54:52.740 --> 55:02.740] people that everything you do in terms of communicating, you define how you want to communicate,
[55:02.740 --> 55:09.540] what you want to communicate, the things that you really love, the things you love to communicate,
[55:09.540 --> 55:15.780] the way in which you communicate, all of that stuff can lead into different directions that are
[55:15.780 --> 55:25.940] exciting. Yeah, this has been incredible. And I know we'll have to do a part two at some point
[55:25.940 --> 55:29.940] and talk more because we're already at a time. And I've absolutely loved having you.
[55:31.940 --> 55:36.740] So for folks, for anyone listening who would love to have Shell back on, reach out to me,
[55:36.740 --> 55:42.580] davidatwyschools.com. And we can will line up part two because I think we still have so much more
[55:42.740 --> 55:47.380] talk about. And I really loved having you. How can folks get ahold of you and learn more about
[55:47.380 --> 55:53.060] what you do, find your book, find your, your coaching? Well, the easiest way is passion,
[55:53.860 --> 56:02.660] tio2career.com. Yeah. And then my book is unlock your career path.com. But it's on the website. So
[56:02.660 --> 56:09.060] I prefer people first look at the PDF because that's very inexpensive way. You download it so I can
[56:09.060 --> 56:14.980] make changes easily. Yeah. Instead of printing out a whole new set of books. But you can get the book
[56:14.980 --> 56:23.460] on Amazon. Okay. Right. Yeah. But anyway, that PDF download is very, very inexpensive. And it's
[56:23.460 --> 56:30.900] fillable by the way. So you can, you can do the process. And then I do the masterclass. Your next
[56:30.900 --> 56:36.660] career career move masterclass. You can schedule the intro call with me. Okay. On the right side.
[56:36.660 --> 56:41.380] Awesome. Well, thank you again for being on the show. I appreciate you being here and sharing
[56:41.380 --> 56:48.100] your wisdom and story. I think it's really inspiring. And yeah, this has been great. So thank you.
[56:48.100 --> 56:54.340] You are too. You're the kind of example that I like to give people of what it's like when you're
[56:54.340 --> 56:58.980] incorporating all those skills and all those things that are important to you on your work.
[56:59.540 --> 57:08.100] Thanks for tuning in to Wise Squirrelss. Please make sure you follow the show so you never miss an
[57:08.100 --> 57:14.340] episode. If you enjoyed the show, leave a review. Please and visit Wise Squirrelss.com slash love for
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