PODCAST. Addiction and ADHD with Dr. Todd Love.
I began the show today discussing Julia Cameron’s The Artist Way book. We also mentioned the Freedom app, which I use to block access to social media and news sites for periods of the day when I need to focus. The affiliate links above help support my work; if you decide to make a purchase, we earn a commission which gets reinvested into Wise Squirrels.
In this episode of the ADHD Wise Squirrels podcast, we sat down with Dr. Todd Love, a licensed mental health clinician and ADHD coach, to delve into the intricacies of ADHD, its original names, and its strong connection to addiction.
Dr. Todd Love’s Journey with ADHD
Dr. Love began by sharing his personal journey with ADHD, having been diagnosed at an early age. His life story, marked by struggles in school and a career that spanned from corporate work to law and eventually to therapy, highlights the complex and often turbulent path many with ADHD experience. Dr. Love’s transition from a DUI attorney to a mental health clinician specializing in ADHD and addiction was driven by a deep desire to help others navigate similar challenges.
Understanding ADHD: Beyond the Deficit
A significant portion of the conversation was dedicated to demystifying ADHD. Dr. Love emphasized that ADHD is not a simple deficit of attention but rather a complex neurobiological condition characterized by difficulties in regulating attention, impulse control, and managing dopamine levels. He explained that ADHD is a brain-based disorder with genetic components and distinct differences in brain function, such as the reward network, which is closely linked to addiction.
The ADHD-Addiction Connection
One of the most compelling aspects of the discussion was the connection between ADHD and addiction. Dr. Love explained that individuals with ADHD are more prone to addictive behaviors due to their brain's inherent predisposition. The impaired reward network in ADHD brains makes them more susceptible to seeking out stimuli that provide immediate gratification, which can lead to substance abuse, internet addiction, and even compulsive behaviors like gambling or pornography use.
Dr. Love also addressed common myths surrounding ADHD and addiction, particularly the misconception that stimulant medications used to treat ADHD can lead to addiction. He clarified that, in fact, appropriate medication can have a protective effect, reducing the likelihood of developing addictive behaviors by helping individuals manage their symptoms more effectively.
ADHD, ADD, What’s in a Name?
During the podcast, Dr. Todd Love and host Dave Delaney touched on the history and confusion surrounding the names ADHD and ADD. Dr. Love explained that in 1980, the term "Attention Deficit Disorder" (ADD) was introduced in the DSM-III (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), and it included the option of being with or without hyperactivity. However, this terminology was short-lived. In 1987, with the release of the DSM-III-R, the term was changed to "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder" (ADHD), which has remained the official term ever since.
Dr. Love pointed out that although the term ADD was only officially used for seven years, it has stuck in popular usage, leading to confusion. Many people still refer to ADD and ADHD as separate conditions, even though they are now understood to be the same, with ADHD being the umbrella term. ADHD is categorized by different presentations, such as predominantly inattentive, predominantly hyperactive-impulsive, or combined presentation.
Fidgety Phillip
Dr. Love referenced "Fidgety Phillip" as an early depiction of what we might now recognize as ADHD-like behaviors. "Fidgety Phillip" is a character from a story written in 1844 by Heinrich Hoffmann, a German psychiatrist and the founder of the first mental hospital in Frankfurt. The story describes a young boy who cannot sit still, exhibiting behaviors like fidgeting and causing chaos at the dinner table—traits commonly associated with ADHD today. This early literary example shows that even in the mid-19th century, there was recognition of behaviors similar to what we now classify as ADHD.
Hyperkinetic Reaction of Childhood
"Hyperkinetic Reaction of Childhood" was a term used in the DSM-II, published in 1968, to describe children who exhibited excessive hyperactivity and impulsivity. This diagnosis did not yet include the cognitive and attentional aspects that are now understood as part of ADHD. Dr. Love mentioned that he himself was diagnosed under this terminology as a child, reflecting the focus at the time on hyperactivity as the primary symptom.
Minimal Brain Dysfunction
Before ADHD was well understood, another term used in early diagnostic manuals was "Minimal Brain Dysfunction" (MBD). This term was used in the 1950s and 1960s to describe children who exhibited a range of behavioral issues, including hyperactivity, impulsivity, and learning difficulties. MBD was a vague and broad diagnosis that suggested some unspecified, subtle brain damage or dysfunction was responsible for these behaviors. It was an early attempt to categorize what we now recognize as ADHD, though the term is no longer in use due to its imprecision and the stigma it implied.
The discussion highlighted how these naming conventions have contributed to misunderstandings about the condition. Dave also noted that prominent ADHD organizations, like ADDA (Attention Deficit Disorder Association) and publications like ADDitude magazine, continue to use "ADD" in their names, further perpetuating the confusion. However, officially, the term ADD no longer exists separately from ADHD in the medical and psychological communities.
Managing ADHD and Addiction
Dr. Love outlined his framework for managing ADHD, which involves three key steps: understanding ADHD, owning and accepting it, and learning to manage it. Understanding ADHD is crucial for both individuals and their support systems, as it shifts the perspective from self-blame to recognizing ADHD as a neurobiological condition. Owning and accepting ADHD involves embracing one’s unique neurodivergence and setting boundaries that respect one’s needs.
When it comes to addiction, Dr. Love emphasized the importance of peer support, counseling, and sometimes medication as part of a comprehensive treatment plan. He discussed the necessity of self-regulation strategies, such as using apps like Freedom to block distracting websites and creating boundaries around technology use.
The interview concluded with practical advice for listeners on managing both ADHD and addiction. Dr. Love’s approach is one of compassion and understanding, encouraging individuals to seek support, explore treatment options, and develop strategies tailored to their unique needs.
For those interested in learning more about Dr. Todd Love’s work, he can be reached through his website, DocToddLove.com, where he shares resources and presentations on ADHD and addiction.
This episode of ADHD Wise Squirrels offers a wealth of knowledge for anyone seeking to better understand ADHD and its intersection with addiction. It’s a must-listen for individuals with ADHD, their loved ones, and mental health professionals. Enjoy the show.
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0:00
So ADHD has always driven my life, and I'm fortunate to have been diagnosed the opposite of late life. I was diagnosed at four, been on meds since I was six, and so I've still had my lifelong struggles. I tried to kick me every school I went to and called me behavior problems and all that stuff. So ADHD has really been well known as a thing, but I did have that as part of my my thing. And so that allowed things like accommodation point being you and I about the same age. So in the late 70s, early 80s, when I was in, you know, elementary and middle and all that stuff, one thing that comes with ADHD is, like dysgraphia, they could, I could never learn to write cursive. So they got permission. I was on a keyboard. So I started using the old Apple two ease and all that, all that kind of stuff, which, when I got to college, using it, or I worked in the computer lab and all this stuff. So when I got out of undergrad, I worked for an IBM subsidiary a lotus. You may remember lotus, yeah, three Lotus Notes and all that stuff. And so, because I was a bit of a computer person at the time, and so they sent me, they had a tuition reimbursement program, 100% for graduate school if I went into business school, which I had no real interest in. But my dad's like, a free degree is a good degree. So having the add energy, I worked full time, I went to business school at night. And it was really good and engaging. I enjoyed that in, you know, when we are people with ADHD put into something that we're driven towards, we just shine and all that stuff. Yes, so time passes and all this stuff, I start fading out in the interest. It wasn't new anymore, and all that stuff so that career. So I'm back to night school again, this time for law. So I was working full time corporate job. I was studying law at night, and that wasn't kind of the same experience. There was a breaking point for me, and yeah, and so addiction issues came and all this stuff. Eventually I finished law school, passed the bar, and then got in the car and drove straight, basically, to rehab and did all that stuff, stuff that I'm open about in general, but I won't elaborate in the moment. But so I made a career change, and I was a DUI defense left corporate world as a DUI defense attorney, and I realized pretty quickly into it that I felt better about myself if I was to, you know, not take someone's check and help them get work through their second, you know, DUI or whatever. It is, not that I have any judgment on that. But instead, if we sat down for two hours and I got them to go and make major life changes. And so one of my colleagues was talking to me the thing, and who's being kind of quippy? You should be their therapist and not their lawyer. And the bell just went off for me, like, that's it. That's what I want to do high school again. And I did the Yeah, the counseling thing. So,
2:47
yeah, that is that transition story between, you know, how do you go from an attorney, or even corporate guy, to attorney to this field? So I'm currently licensed as a mental health clinician, a therapist. I cross trained as an ADHD coach, because there's good techniques to meld with there. I keep the attorney's license, but I don't do anything with it. And so my primary practice is a men's or people who identify as male counseling and coaching practice. And so, yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. And what a It's funny how we, you know, somebody suggests something, and suddenly, like the light bulb goes off. I have had that experience multiple times through my career as well, and even leading the white why squirrels to this very podcast that you know that's that's something there too. You've got a framework that you've developed, right? Tell me about, yeah,
3:44
before I do that, there's something I like to do,
3:48
kind of setting the stage for myself, making myself feel more comfortable. Yeah, you may remember the old HAIR CLUB from in commercial in the 80s. I said, not only the President, I'm also a member, yes, so I guess I had already acknowledged, you know, my ADHD and directly earlier in the conversation. But I like to be just really put it up front and say, you know, just sounded me owning it. I'm very ADHD, and that manifests largely or in lots of areas, but it manifests in situations like this with excitability. I'll jump around, I'll trail off, I'll lose my point and all that stuff. So I do keep my notes to keep me focused. Feel free to redirect me. But I used to hate public speaking because I would get reviews. He jumped around too much. He was fidgety, and, you know, at the podium, and it's just, you know, rejection, sensitivity was horrible. And so when colleagues said you should just own it, you should just tell people, Hey, I'm mid Ed. I'm gonna talk fast, I'm gonna jump around. I'm gonna lose my place. And then I guess people could still make negative comments, but it kind of makes them a jerk at that point. And so it made it so much more and that is part of the framework is just becoming comfortable with and owning your ADHD, then you just don't have to carry that weight about it. That's a good tip. That's a great tip. Yeah.
5:00
So, yeah, going back to what you had, had mentioned, I put together, kind of, I was doing a continuing ed class for adult ADHD this summer, and it gave me an opportunity to go through and just collect, you know, go through all the expert material. There's so much great stuff out there, 1000s of papers, nothing. I've read 1000s of papers. But, you know, as Russell Barclay puts it, you know, this is really well studied, despite the fact that people don't seem to know anything about it and and so I, as I tried to present it to clinicians, so people can get, you know, up to date, and also you realize this is what I've been using my clients. But it's, you know, kind of a three part thing, and it is owning or understanding your ADHD, what it is, what's going on in my brain, owning it and accepting it as part of owning it and then learning to manage it. And that's the model that I realized, that it just makes sense. And so that's kind of what I can talk through today. If you think that would be helpful. Yeah, absolutely. So you said owning and accepting and managing it. Is that right? Understanding, understanding, being the first one Yeah, and then owning it, or owning slash, accepting, yeah, and then learning to manage it, yeah? So yeah, let's, let's go through that like, what are, what are some tips and ideas and strategies for for folks listening, who are also late diagnosed adults, you know, to understand what? Yeah, understand ADHD, sure, yeah, you know. And there's so much as we know, misinformation or lack of information. And you know, even just in the name, you know, attention deficit, you know, as Hallowell and I says, we don't have a deficit of attention. Or this might be a Dodson thing, you know, its ability to regulate it and manage it on demand. So really understanding that you know what it is, there is a huge amount of research you know about. There's the genetic component, there's the wiring component, there's the dopamine component. There's just all this stuff. We are non neurotypicals living in a neurotypical world, but we can take so much messaging that we are, you know, character defects, that we're doing it wrong. We're not going to get ever stupid all that shame stuff that we all but in reality, we're just kind of wired different so in and we won't take the time, I think, today, to go into, into the details, and I have to pull up notes to remember, you know what, all the details, but everything from neural networks to, again, genetics to blood flow and functioning and dopamine levels and all that, it's just a brain based thing. And for people to really get that, I've had some clients that's taken them, you know, that are late, diagnosed again, you know, or whatever, 20s or 30s, and just refuse to believe that this was really a thing. People have just talked bad about it. It's just a, you know, pharma hype, or whatever it is. I just am really not very smart. I can't get my pieces together. And so really understanding, wait, no, you know, let's pull up the all the research. Let's put it up there. Look at these slides of brain scan and all this stuff. Yeah. So that can make such a difference to and for clinicians, people who are trying to work with, people with ADHD, or partners, whoever, to understand this is a brain based thing. There's just tons of stuff out there that you can you know, it's a neurobiologically based disorder. So that's kind of a first part. Is for people to really understand that, yeah. And then once you get it, then we can, we can own it and say, okay, you know, I am wired differently. It's, you know, I'm a non neurotypical in a neurotypical world. And so, and that requires understanding that first part, self compassion, so, and then, um, ego strength, really, to be able to say, I'm okay. This is a thing, you know, to put boundaries with others. Wait, I'm a person with ADHD. I can, you know, take, always, take neurotypical standards, because I'm not going to meet them. And so who is it that attention different, not deficit? Try to remember who I'm citing, because I try to reference all the expert people. That might be a Halloween godson thing, but yeah. So that part of owning it was Hallowell said, you know, find and embrace your weird Yeah, or I like that. Dodson, you know, is write your own owner's manual. We just can't measure ourselves to the outside world standards, even like productivity systems. You know, people talk about finding productivity system when I'm doing that coaching work with my clients, like we have to take this with a grain of salt, because it's not, you know, the get things done, or the this, or all these great systems, they're not going to fully meet our brains, because we are just kind of different. Yeah. So these things that are effective for everyone else. Aren't necessarily effective for us. When you go back to, oh, sorry to interrupt, but when you mentioned understanding it,
9:48
what are your thoughts around?
9:51
Like, like, you know, I understand that. That add is just now ADHD. Like, ADHD is the thing, and yet.
10:00
So many people still refer to ADD and ADHD is two different things. And then I guess it confuses people too, because, like Ada, who's really, like one of the the most well known groups that that folks with ADHD can can join, and they have a conference and all that. But of course, the name and even the magazine attitude is it doesn't have VH and so any any thoughts around around that? Sure, yeah, that's a good one. It's one of the slides I use that I jump past. But the naming history so going super fast, like it was first in 1980 they came out with a name, attention deficit disorder add and it said with or without hyperactivity. And that only lasted for seven years. Then when the DSM three came out, they revised it to Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, so ADHD. So really that name was only there in the 80s, but it is really stuck, yeah, and there have been changes, you know, ADHD, they added subtypes in the mid 90s, and then they replaced subtypes with presentations in the DSM five. But it has always been, you know, ADHD, and it's not ad slash HD, or, you know,
11:21
anything like that. It's just always been ADHD, but because that core was out there for a while, and it's just lazy and easier to say, I say lazy because I say judgment thing. It's just easy to say add, yeah, but yeah, as an official name from 1980 to 1987 is when it was actually a thing. Was it something before that? Yeah. The so the DSM, the first DSM, it was minimal brain dysfunction, which is ugly sounding, yeah. And then in 1968 the DSM two, it was hyperkinetic reaction of childhood. So that's what they nailed me with, because I was really hyper kid, yeah. And so they knew nothing of the cognitive side of self regulation or whatever. The history is really interesting. You know, people talk about fidgety Have you heard of fidgety fill? No, I haven't. Oh my gosh. So it was a story written in 1844 by Heinrich Hoffman. He was the founder of the first Mental Hospital in Frankfurt, and it's a little animated thing, or it talks about story of fidgety Phil, describes a client, a child with what we would call today, ADHD. And so, you know, you know, but fidgety Phil, he won't sit still. He wriggles and giggles. And there's this whole thing, and there's these pictures of him fidgeting at the table. Then he falls back, and he pulls the tablecloth and all the dishes flying everywhere and all this? But I don't know if he was talking about his son or a client, but as people look back, you know, they thought it just went to fidgety. Phil, that's kind of a more well known one. But when I was doing my research for the thing or my presentation, the furthest back I found that they talk about was, what was that? 1775
13:03
they talked about a syndrome that described all the ADHD stuff in a German medical textbook. And then 1798 in a Scottish textbook. Another guy, he talked about it again, a syndrome based thing. And then the mid 1800s with fidgety fill. But we didn't pick up on it until the, you know, 1950s with the when the DSM came out. That's interesting. It's really, yeah, yeah. That is cool. I mean, I know, with, like, executive functioning skills and things like that, where, you know, even, even, like, cavemen, I guess, were, you know, building fires and trying to figure stuff out.
13:42
And so needing these executive functioning skills were obviously a core part of that, that as well. So, yeah, it's pretty fascinating. How, yeah, how far back? I mean, it goes as long as we've been around. But, but how it's, how it's received different names, different labels over time. So, alright, so, so present day, we're at ADHD, and you know, our listener here has been diagnosed with ADHD, so now it's a step around owning and accepting it,
14:13
yeah. Well, how do you go about handling that, as far as like, communicating with your your your clients, yeah, yeah, that's a lot of
14:25
a lot of counseling goes around that your peer support, you know, the stuff with atta and these other places, you know, where people can find other folks like us, you know, like see us instead of them, because It's, you know, same club, but that component is really just so important. And there's so much good material out there, good books and all that stuff so but it can be quite a while. Some people, they've known something was going on, you know, for a long time, and it's this such, this sigh of relief. You know, when you get that die.
15:00
Gnosis, and it's just like his life changing.
15:04
Ari tugman did a presentation on this at the conference a few years ago, and he talks about how grieving the past for a little while, but then looking towards the future and how, what are we going to build, and how are we going to, you know, manage it. And so which is that, that third part? And you know, talk about medications, counseling, coaching and self care, complementary, not, not mutually exclusive. And I try to say manage instead of treat. You know, some of the stuff is treatment, ADHD, treatment, medication. When they say medication management, but try to not pathologize it. You know, as you know, we're not sick or broken or just wired different in this just, you know, people that need glasses aren't sick. So when it comes to, like, just taking a step back to the owning and accepting part are like, are there specific strategies or things that you recommend someone does to start the process of this acceptance. Because, like, for me personally, I've, I've just delivered, I've developed a presentation, I do a lot of public speaking, called the root down. And the root down has like, three steps or three kind of phases, I guess you can say in it. And again, you know, I'm not an expert in ADHD. I mean, I'm clear. I'm still learning about this stuff myself, but what I have found in my own life and the coping mechanisms and things that I've used it really yeah, for me, it comes down to knowing myself, knowing yourself, and then respecting yourself and that self acceptance and then connecting yourself with community with others, and finding folks who are like minded. So getting into that acceptance stage that you know, and I suppose that would be kind of fitting in with respecting yourself. What are some strategies someone can use to accept themselves? I really like how what you would just put around it.
17:02
So thinking out loud, I don't think I have specific set of strategies that really varies in my practice by client, you know, where they are and how the presentation has been, and so how much of this is a shock, and they really need to understand it. And you know, this ownership piece, or is it a sigh of relief, and people want to put it on, you know, put on the jacket, and whatever the metaphor is, and say, Okay, this fits me. I get it. I'm with it. But people just really vary. You know, how much collateral damage has there been over the years, and how much do we have to get past that? And you know, the guy that comes in, and I usually get emotional when I try to, you know, do the quote, but he had just gotten his first medication, and it was just, you know, I can see clearly now, kind of a thing. And then he pauses and just stops for like, 10 minutes. And so he then says, if somebody had diagnosed me earlier, if I had gotten this medication, then I wouldn't have any basically list out all the Russell Barkley criteria of what happens to people if they don't get diagnosed, you know, failed out of college twice, gone to jail for six months for this, been divorced, you know, all these things. It's like, you know, I wanted to be someone. I was going to go to law school and all this stuff instead, you know, 15 years passed, and it's been a wreck. And so in that case, there is a lot to process, and that goes into a therapy side as well, but really understanding that, and
18:31
yeah, the, and I know this is an area of specialty that you focus on around addiction and ADHD and talk a little bit about the connection between addictive personalities and addiction as it applies to folks with ADHD. Yeah, that's a great, really important topic. That's one of my specialty areas, that the connection between ADHD, you know, physiological brain has an inherent neurobiological predisposition.
19:07
And there's, I found in one of the articles, a big,
19:11
fancy chart of all the brain networks that are impaired in ADHD stuff that is beyond my area of knowledge or really interest. Except for one of them, it stuck out, and that's the reward network, and that's what gets hijacked in addiction. But that's where, as a person with ADHD, I'm already impaired from the get go, new shiny, novel impulse control stuff, failing the marshmallow test, all those things. It takes people, the neurotypical brain, frequently, some time to get there. Where we start there already. So a lot of the genetics that are found in ADHD, some of them are also the same dopamine receptor genes that are found in people with addiction. So there is a huge just, you know, out of the gate, a biological predisposition for it, poor judgment, you know, all that stuff. And then the psychological.
20:00
Component, you know, we're more likely to experiment the self medication piece, and so, yeah, that that yields towards those higher rates of, what was it a statistic, something like 40% of people in addiction treatment programs had ADHD, and like maybe a third had been diagnosed. A lot of them just nobody knew, nobody, you know, their lives went up on this path and they wound up, you know,
20:26
so, yeah, yeah, you kind of use other things, like, you know, caffeine or, you know, or narcotics or alcohol or whatever, as like, I guess, in a way, it's sort of a coping mechanism, but it also kind of helps to provide that sort of dopamine hit, I guess, to help replace what's missing that you know that meds could actually help with, Right? You also have a specialty in internet addiction,
21:03
and as as we I've been, you know, was preparing for the for the conversation today, I was thinking about how I recently changed my medication, and also to something a little heavier.
21:19
Apparently I had started a little too light, but anyway,
21:24
I've been an early proponent of social media, and I've been on all the social networks since the very early days of this stuff and but I found lately, actually, I commented today that I haven't really been on here much lately, and it just occurred to me that maybe the new meds I'm on are helping me curb my own addiction to social media. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, that's really an interesting observation.
21:50
Yeah, that's pretty cool. You know, articles have gone back a while. They have Silicon Valley people have, you know, acknowledged that they brought in, you know, research psychologist, or, you know, all these different when they design the apps, you know, yeah, to activate that, that brain system, you know, the infinite scroll. Every time you scroll, there's a little hit of dopamine, of, you know, what's going to be next. They used to think that addiction center in the brain, back in the 80s, was the pleasure center, the pleasure principle and all that, and now they talk about more. It's the reward center. It's our response to reward. You give a kid a gold star, he lights up, or dog a bone, he lights up. And that's how we learn to do something. It's just, that's why it's there evolutionarily. But it gets hijacked. So, you know, every hit of the refresh button or scroll or whatever, there's this what they found most recently, you know, they don't talk about it as much because the reward model is more clear cut, but it's that anticipation of reward. So like they see it most in gamblers, like win or lose. The spike is when the dice are flying out of the hand,
22:53
when that's really where, like the infinite scroll every time you what is the refresh? What is the latest thing going to be? What's the latest on the home page, and so doing that repetitively, people start getting a little dopamine dependent, or whatever. That's where that myth comes in, that it's, you know, the internet is making people ADHD, and we know that that can't happen. It can give people ADHD like symptoms because we get used to, or people get used to always no needing that little hit, that little boost, and nothing. Other things are less interesting. So sitting there and doing something that's not as rewarding as picking up my phone and checking to see what the latest whatever is, yeah, so people get drawn towards that, but it's not like the ADHD brain, where we're already drawn towards that and then we can have a harder time getting out of it, yeah, and it's interesting also with the design. I used to work in consumer electronics, and I've done some work in the SAS kind of program industry as well, and the software as a service, and so I've learned a lot about and also I'm a big because I'm an early adopter in this stuff, I'm naturally interested in,
24:03
I've also been a pretty, pretty big fan of Media Studies and, and, and, you know, Marshall McLuhan and, you know, things like that. So I bring that up because Tristan Harris has a group, or he's co founder of the Center for humane tech, and I really like the work they're doing. They did the movie the
24:27
Netflix that a lot of people might have social dilemma. Yes, the social dilemma. And so I've actually done things with my phone personally, like, you know, to your point about the reward system and how, just like, when you pull down your screen of your iPhone to refresh it. It makes that clickety click sound, that sounds that is a very appealing sound that sound designers engineered into the phone, and even the colors, like having the notification that little red icon with a number on it, but.
25:00
There are strategies that you know, folks can use for their phones, like they can turn off the notifications. I have a button on the side of my phone. Well, I mean, everybody does, but I click it three times and it switches my phone to black and white, so the display is actually black and white, and that helps to curb that,
25:21
that natural, addictive kind of qualities that are in the very vibrant colors and design of the apps and the operating systems of phones. Are there other things that you have found that that help, maybe with this, with with smartphone addiction, or social media or internet in general, I remember the old stumble upon button. I love that thing. Back when the internet was fun. You could use the stumble upon button, you press it, and it would just give you a random website, and there would be all sorts of interesting, cool stuff, but it's just not as much fun anymore,
25:58
right, right? Yeah, I saw that you have, you know, on your web page the freedom. Yes, I'm big proponent. So I use that. I just find it so helpful kind of protect yourself from yourself, model. And, yeah, when I'm dealing with clients that are really stuck in addiction and where impulse control is just impaired. You know, for internet related stuff, whether it's gaming, gambling, pornography, is a big one, just going and finding the latest hit and, you know, it's just it becomes compulsive or addictive, and it can take a lot of steps to really block access to that. I love. Hate relationship with Apple. I'm not marketing for them at all. But the iOS devices do do a very good you could lock the crud out of them. You can do a white list only kind of a thing. You can turn off browsers, turn off access to the App Store, and that's process I go through with clients. Will say, What apps do you know? We'll pull out a notepad, and What apps do you have to have? Because they used to say, just get rid of your smartphone, get a flip phone or whatever. But no, I have to have dual factor authentication. I have to get into my bank. I have to do all these things wire smartphone, but it doesn't have to have any games on it. Doesn't have to have anything with an infinite scroll on it. It doesn't have to have a browser on it.
27:18
And then you lock it down, someone else can take the screen time, password, you know, if they're in recovery, give it to accountability partner, or whatever kind of a thing,
27:27
and then it just this renewed relationship with the device. And it's an interesting process. People can at first really regret it, but then be so grateful later and just, you know, it's like all I can do is communications or productivity, or nothing. You know that thing of picking up your phone habitually to, like, escape in it, and there's nothing to do, so you just put it back down and move on. Yeah, that's a really powerful benefit. People can find, yeah, actually, I was using freedom,
27:56
and I'll include a link to that in the app in the show notes. So, like, when folks are listening, they can, they can find that, and it's on the website too. Because I, yeah, I'm a big believer in lover of that app. But yeah, when I started using freedom, I had given up social media for a summer, and also Google News. Like all the news, I tried to, like, block myself from that, because it was an especially stressful period. And what I found was, but of course, I was still carrying my phone, because I, you know, I have a business I need to take phone calls and, you know, to your, to your point, you know, check your bank and all that stuff. So giving up your smartphone, I think, you know, is as sexy as that may sound, or maybe not sexy, depending
28:39
it's it's not always the easiest thing to do, and so following kind of what you just said, and then also using freedom, I started reading so much more on my Kindle, because I would use the I would like be reading on the, like paper, white Kindle device, my ebook reader, and then I would go walk the dog. And when I was out with the dog, out of habit, I would take my phone out, but I would only have, like the Kindle app to use, and so I would go back. And so I started reading way more. I found
29:09
another thing I found with screen time that you mentioned is, you know, when you start checking your screen time, and to Apple's credit, you're right. Like having screen time is huge, because you start to see, whoa, like, I spent five hours today on Twitter, or whatever it's called, or, you know, whatever the social network is. So it's, it is pretty sobering to see just how much time in a day we're spending on, you know, different social platforms or apps and things like that. So yeah, do you have like specifics where, like, someone has come to you with some form of internet addiction, and how you helped with that?
29:50
Yeah, that's a large part of my, my practice.
29:55
Let's see here, getting addicted to or, I guess, games, which you can be in.
30:00
Internet or console but I guess so many these days, people are doing PC games,
30:05
gambling, sports betting and all that kind of stuff gets a bit but it's not the day to day addictive things like that, or
30:12
social media or porn. Porn is just a big one. There's unnecessary controversy around it. You know, not trying to step into human sexuality, or people exploring or relationship issues, or whatever. And that domain, maybe it's not addictive, but for some people, and a lot of ADHD people, it's just the, you know, instant access to raw dopamine, just whatever is the latest thing on there is interesting and new, and it just floods and you and and people can have a really hard time getting away from that. Yeah. And one of the markers of addiction is swearing. I don't, I'm not going to do this anymore. And then they wind back up at the craps table, or I'm not going to do this anymore, and they wind back up pulling whatever you know, site is, and so, and that's where some, some heavy initial steps of, you know, like you would never tell an alcoholic, you know, expect him to get sober while carrying the bottle in his pocket. You know, it's just stupid do that. But we're trying, if we're trying to get, you know, away from addiction to digital devices and whatever the particular content is. But we're carrying the phone in our pocket. It's really asking, you know, and again, as ADHD, people were already impulse control impaired, and now we've double impaired that brain region for, you know, dopamine dependency and reactivity and all that kind of stuff. So it can be really difficult, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, go ahead. No, no, yeah, that piece, I guess, the next piece is peer accountability is so helpful.
31:38
Just a found up, you know, 100 plus years ago, just having people like you, as they would say, people like me, or whatever that you know, you could talk to and get understood and not get judged and feel shame and all that stuff. So, you know, putting together support groups of whatever it is, if it's addiction related, and that's something I can talk about in the kind of larger addiction context in a minute, if you want me to Yeah, but just yeah, the impact of ADHD and addiction and trying to find recovery. Yeah, before we get into that, I do have a quick question, which is, you know, everybody hears you know, it's best to shut off your screens to get better sleep, like an hour before you go to bed, turn off your screens. And I think that advice sounds wonderful in theory, but I also find and also like, first thing in the morning, don't look at your phone, you know. Like, enjoy, you know, journal or whatever. But here's the kicker, I have the phone next to me in bed, and I know, like, I have a charge there. And some people say, well, like, move the phone out of the room at night or or plug it in across your room. And my paranoia is that, God forbid, there's a fire or somebody breaks into my house, I want to be close to where I can call 911,
32:55
if my like, alarm system doesn't go off for some reason. And the other side of it is like, as my kids are getting older now, sometimes I'm asleep and they're still out, and I want to make sure that I'm I'm there in case one of them calls me their car is broken down or something like that. So these are the excuses at least I use for why I need the phone next to me at night. But at the flip side, I totally respect and appreciate the advice. So how the hell can I get over this?
33:25
Yeah, that's a that is a good one. That's a tough one. So like,
33:32
the system my wife and I use is, you know, I don't keep my phone in the bedroom. We just have her so we have one there for all that stuff, but it lives on my side of the table, you know, on my bed stand. So there's nothing that she can reach for that's useful for her. There's nothing that I can reach for because it's her phone and doesn't have any of my stuff on it. So we still, you know, meet that we have the emergency thing in the in the bedroom, or the communication device in the bedroom, but it's not instantly accessible by either person. You can't just roll over and grab it. So that's been an interesting thing. That's genius. I love that. I think that's a great idea. Sorry, go ahead. No no.
34:10
But it's also, you know, like, I use a meditation app or something inside timer or headspace or whatever before bed. So the black and white, just like, you know, not having a smartphone. They used to say, 10 years ago, that you just can't do not using a device for X amount of time. Yes, it depends on what we're doing with it. You know, if I'm sitting there and I'm doing it however long, guided meditation on the headspace app on my phone right before bed, that's not, you know, we want to say, or categorically, that's bad because you're on a device. So it's I like in the bedtime feature that Apple has put on there you can select, you know, it changes your home screen, if you've seen how it does that in the wind down. So only devices, only the apps that you select to see. I mean, everything's available, but it's not there. So you pick up your phone and there's, I've got a little, you know, Sound Machine app, my meditation app, you know, one or two other things.
35:00
Things, so it encourages me to do the stuff that I want to be doing as I'm shutting down, and doesn't prime me with, you know, access to other things. Yeah, now that that's great advice. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, and you were, you were mentioning earlier that you've got, like, more ideas around, like, addiction in general, is that right?
35:22
Sure, yeah, let me pull up something
35:27
you had talked about. I'm gonna go. So some of my presentations I do like a Myths and Truths About ADHD and addiction and so, you know, one of the most common myths people talk about is, you know, stimulant medication, treatment and childhood would lead to addiction later in life. And I think Russell Ramsey had mentioned in his recent interview with you that new studies have shown that not to be true, and the new studies support what they've had for a while. They've really been building on these so it's just so great that they keep coming up, looking at a Barclay thing, where are you saying? You know, this study concurs with 11 previous studies, and all this that there is no evidence, no compelling evidence, that, you know, stimulant medication treatment in childhood leads to risk for, you know, developing addiction in adulthood, and in fact, it reduces the risk. You know, it's what clinicians would call a protective effect. And it makes sense when you think about it, if I'm not struggling as a kid, if I'm not taking all the Esteem heads, if I'm not needing to self medicate and all this stuff, my life is well managed. Then the chances of my falling into impulse control issues, the chances of my falling into Medicaid and all that stuff, is just less so it's logical when you you know, think about it, that's that first piece, yeah, yeah, yeah. So then the second one, people talk about long term stimulant use can lead to addiction, and that's not true. You know, there's no and I'm not an MD, so I'm not going to step out of my lane,
36:58
based on all their studies that I've read and all the stuff from outside and all that stuff. And my setups, diagnosed at four, started meds when I was six, and I'm now early 50s, and I've been on stimulant med ever.
37:10
You know, you don't get we don't get addicted to them. And tolerance is rare, independence and all that stuff. Some people it can happen. You know, there's outliers for everything, but just this fear that, oh, if I take it for too long, I'm addicted.
37:24
And then I'll talk about that, and another piece about that in a second. But that third piece in my, you know, addiction and ADHD is with ADHD, rarely abuse it. And so it's interesting. There was a study in, I think it was Sweden, or something, that people that were addicted to stimulants like, I think, crystal meth. And they identified the ADHD people in this study, and they got them on methylphenidate treatment, and that did not agitate their stimulant addiction in terms of going back to meth, that helped actually reduce their likelihood. So I thought that was an interesting thing.
38:00
But so then there's myths about, you know, addiction treatment, and one is people with ADHD must discontinue their meds, you know, in order to get sober. And you see that a lot in treatment centers, they're just, I guess it's kind of a simplistic because stimulant meds are a drug of abuse, a controlled substance, therefore anybody in recovery. We don't want them to transition to another thing, but they don't take, you know, to account that the ADHD brain is not a neurotypical brain. So while these meds, you know, people that are a normal baseline, they take stimulant meds, they get some euphoric they get jacked up, they get all this stuff. It doesn't do that for us, you know, for me, it puts me to baseline. I try to abuse it and take too much. I just get super anxious. You know, it's not fun for us. And who was it? Barkley, or someone I forget. Who it was that said, you know, like we can struggle to remember until we get the routine to remember to take our meds. And he said, forgetting to take your drugs is not drugs. Drug seeking behavior, which I thought was a great way. Yeah, addicts Don't forget, you know, where we can forget, yeah, and so, but yeah. So they found that people in recovery that take their meds, they're more likely to be compliant with whatever their recovery plan is, to get their life back on the track, such that they are less likely to fall back into the behaviors. So just like taking meds is, you know, growing up can is a pro, you know, a protective effect taking meds, continuing to take meds, following addiction recovery is a pro recovery choice. It keeps us in the better, you know, space. It fills that gap so we're less likely to fall into relapse and all that kind of stuff. So those are two really important points, yeah, no, they're very good, very, very helpful. Yeah, definitely.
39:50
And as far as, like, the, you know, you touched on it a little bit, but, but about, you know, internet or sex addiction, or porn addiction, things like that,
39:59
or.
40:00
Are there ways to kind of curb that, or ways to treat that?
40:06
Yeah, that's a that's a big topic. And it can be, you know, controversy around the, you know, the concept of, you know, sex addiction, is it a thing, or is it a not? And so I won't get into that. I'm a certified sex addiction therapist. That's a strong area of my practice. So I do believe that behaviors can get compulsive and addictive and all that kind of stuff. The internet pornography addiction, I think, is more easily why I'm speaking to the controversy. But I guess because this goes on the open internet for anyone to hear, I'll speak to it in super quick. Is more, you know, easy to identify, right? So we can say if someone is compulsively using their phone to gamble, they have a gambling addiction. If they're compulsively gaming, they have a gaming addiction. If they're compulsively using it to look at porn, oh, well, that can't be an addiction, because that's involves homosexuality, which is sacred and is never addictive, and that's just kind of crazy. So this stuff can become compulsive and driving and take over people's lives. So as with any addiction, there is generally, actually, I'll correct myself in a second, but an underlying driver. That's how some people will say, Oh, it's not really this. It's because they have a whatever thing. There's a lot of trauma underneath addiction. There are people needing to work out all kinds of stuff, unmedicated, you know, this and that. But I'm finding that addiction, or ADHD can be its own driver for addiction. And I guess that supports like not not treating in childhood, you know, coming to stuff, especially these days, just growing up. I can't imagine having grown up with instant access to the internet in my it just, you know, I was, it just kind of blows my mind.
41:44
And the pornography and all the content, to just pull up anything and see it, you know, as a horny adolescent, it would just, you know, I'm allowed to say that, you know, it would just be, it'd be overpowering. So the finding the average age of exposure to pornography is like, way lower than people think it's like 10 and you know, the compulsive use is higher than is reported. And then if you have an ADHD kid who is again already more driven for novelty, more driven, you know, to reward, and less strong in impulse control, I guess we just said more in post control impaired. It really sets things up, you know, to be a problem. I don't know if I answered your question. I might have gone somewhere else. No, no, no. I mean, we were talking a little bit about the
42:35
pornography addiction and, and, yeah, no, you did a good job, kind of explaining, explaining that. And really, I think, I think my question was, like, ways to curb that?
42:49
Yeah, so, and, you know, as a model, just with addiction in general, you know, finding out what purpose does the behavior serve. So, you know, in pornography addiction. Is there a sexual component that needs to be, you know, explored in someone's life, in their relationship, and whatever you know, in that domain? But is there an escape? You know? Where is the escape piece? Just the raw addiction? A lot of times, people will switch, or they get fused, like cannabis and gaming, or cannabis and porn, or whatever they do both at the same time, and it potentiates a high. And so say, well, let's stop doing this. Then the other one, it's like the whack a mole game, if you remember that people stopped doing both, and suddenly they've, you know, started drinking a lot. Drinking was never a problem for me, but now that I'm, you know, got rid of my Xbox and stopped smoking pot, I'm like, going out and drinking with the guys five times more than I used to. So that's can be an area to monitor is to make sure it just doesn't come out in another, you know, another mole pops out of the thing. So what you're saying is, really just like, man, it a great way to manage it is really just to is to really track, I guess, or record, like, what you're doing. Not record, but the track what you're doing, so to keep track of that. And also, you know, I find journaling to be really helpful and beneficial too, because, like, you can look back and see your notes about what what is working or what isn't working, and, you know, kind of help to celebrate your wins and and also learn from the failures that everybody faces. You know, in life, I think that's great, yeah, and journaling is, you know, because we can forget, and as people with ADHD, we're more likely to forget. Certainly, people with addiction forget the positives, and we remember the negatives, and that drives us into anxiety and want to do stuff again, but journaling the stuff, you know, our reasons why I'm doing something. Why do I want this life change? What is it that I like about myself and that this time period when I wasn't using I felt better being able to refresh that, to memorialize it, and then refresh it ourselves with it is journaling. It's a great tool. Yeah, this is, this is very helpful.
44:58
Yeah, I was gonna thinking about.
45:01
The the porn thing and how in Tennessee, where I live, I live in Nashville, Tennessee, the it has been proposed to to age gate porn sites, which, if you've been on the internet for any amount of time, you would quickly learn is the one of the stupidest ideas, just because it will never it will never work. But of course, not all our leaders are the brightest. I am in Tennessee, some
45:31
One only has to take a look. But I digress. So any thoughts to that? Or
45:40
Yeah, yeah, I've been following some of that as well. Years ago, when things like the late 90s, early 2000s when the internet was really becoming more publicly accessible, there was a proposal or whatever to create a domain, a dot XXX and mandatory
45:57
pornographic content or whatever would go into there, and then someone could just, with a single line item, just block access to all of it, should they choose? And that was shot down all pulled apart with, you know, First Amendment freedom of speech or whatever arguments that they use, even though it would be a voluntary thing, I think it's a shame that something like that didn't go through.
46:19
There's a lot of dark money funding that comes out of the porn industry. And I'm supposed to say things like this on that, but it's just true. And they fund the studies that say, Oh no, this is not addictive. You're just approved or, Oh no, this isn't a problem. You just need to, you know, whatever. But they influence legislation and all these things as well. That is just, you know, if people want to contain, have containers around this. It's just, it's been really hard to find ways to do it, yeah, and to put it in a box now and lock it up. I'm not really sure how that would even work. It's almost like the release of AI. I mean, it's, it's out now, so, you know, good luck. But yeah, no, I, I kind of feel the same way. I mean, to the to the porn industry's credit, not that I have any skin in the game, pardon the pun, but, but,
47:08
you know, to the porn industry's credit, they've also, from a technology standpoint, have have actually been responsible for a lot of really great innovation like, like, they were the first to do streaming Video. They were the first to
47:22
they were the ones that made VHS kill beta because of the ease of recording and copying VHS tapes. So there's a lot of interesting, like tech, sort of aspects of the porn industry. But certainly, yeah, I'm not, I'm not defending the industry at all. And the blockers, you know, like, I've used blockers and all this stuff. And, you know, the critics are correct in things like, you know, sexual health sites get blocked if you try to have an adult content blocker, because the algorithms aren't smart enough to know. So if I'm, you know, somebody is going to explore sexuality or sexual health sites, yeah. And so that's, there is no, no solution. Yeah. And I want to add one last thing, you know, in all this, just since it's going on the net and you know, my name on I'm not any more anti porn than I am anti cannabis or alcohol or whatever. Plenty of people use it and find it interesting or whatever, and I don't care at all. The people that I care about are the ones that it takes over their life, you know, it just they can't stop going back to it, whether it's alcohol or cannabis or, you know, or whatever it is, even though there's not a physical dependence on cannabis, there's still a huge addiction component. But games, I mean, I'm a gamer. I've got an Xbox. I've been playing Halo ever since it came out, but I know that it can take me down if I don't have my regulations around it and rules and restrictions and all that. And that's the position I come from with pornography, not anti it, but acknowledge that it is a risk for some people, just like alcohol is a risk for some people to get addicted to. And for ADHD people, we carry a higher risk. Yeah, for Yeah, perfectly said. And yeah, my son is an Xbox gamer as well, and,
49:04
yeah, my only complaint with with the state of gaming is, when I was a kid, I could come over to my friend's house, or vice versa, and we could just fire up the computer, or whatever the gaming device was, and play a game together. And now, like, for a kid to go to another friend's like sleepover to if they want a game together, they actually have to bring the whole Xbox with them and have another monitor or TV to plug into for them to sit in the same room and game together, which I I find kind of sad and genius, also, of the of the game Of the companies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I talk to gaming addiction real quick? Yeah, please, yeah, we have time for that. Yeah. I know we're coming up on time, yeah, but this is something I presented about as well, and all that stuff. And people used to, you know, try to measure the amount of time that somebody is playing in order to they, you know, is it taking over their life or whatever? But.
50:00
Can't really do that these days, because there's a huge pro social component. You know, somebody will come in, you know, my kid or my, you know, whatever is spending all this time. But do they have their headset on and they're laughing and joking with their old college friends? Then that's different than, are they doing it, you know, are they doing it, you know? What are they getting out of it? There's a huge intellectual call it an intellectual component. You know, I've always been a first person campaign guy. I like to figure things out, experience the story. There's a lot of art and creativity and all that. Yeah, it's the newer stuff. It's the short burst, high intensity that is the same thing as the slot machine. Same thing as, you know, is an instant, infinite scroll where you log in, and that's where some of the bigger games are League of Legends, and all those kinds of, you know, stuff just didn't randomly pick one. There's tons of them out of why that came to mind. But a little five to 10 minute thing, it's just this, you know, short burst, high intensity. That's what just floods the brain. That's what, you know, people have one more round, one more round, and they start putting things off that they're going to be doing, and that really bites them in the brain. And that's the stuff where, you know, some people are gonna be doing less of that, but they got to get some every day, and they're pushing stuff out. And that's where gaming starts getting to be problematic. And, you know, from a neurologic perspective, addictive, yeah. And to your point, and I agree with with the the aspect of gaming being a way for kids and adults to socialize. I think, I think that is a really important point. And also, I mean, if you look at the the comparison of the gaming industry revenue compared to the Like Box Office or even digital streaming, film, movie, box or, you know, revenue, like the gaming industry, is far more profitable. And I, I say that because kids are bonding, like I would bond over movies with friends or music, they're bonding over video games now and and that's good. I mean, it's great, like they're they're playing together. And this is the thing. So you know this, this was the deciding factor, or part of it, in letting our kids have smartphones.
52:09
Eventually, once they hit, I think it was 13 or 14, because their friends had them, and this is the way they communicated with one another. And so for you to tell your kids, not sorry you can't have a phone because of concerns about this stuff. Unfortunately, I think the most important thing is to talk to your kids and open the dialog. Talk about addiction, talk about porn, have them understand the dangers and give them what they need. And I'm not perfect in any way in raising my kids, but I have done my best to school them on this stuff over the years, so that they understand what they're looking at and the dangers that are there. And you know, my daughter is just like every other teen girl you know on Tiktok constantly and and snap and such. But to her credit, she had some friends over recently, and my wife and I both noted We overheard her say, Okay, everybody put your phones away. Blah, blah, blah, like, whatever we're gonna do. And she was the one that instigated everybody putting the phones away. So while she's on it a lot, like, like most kids and adults, for that matter, it was really refreshing, and it was just okay, okay. I think we're okay. Just to, just to hear that. So I was, I was really proud of her, yeah, yeah, I think yeah, so and, and to tie all that back, I really like, that's neat. I'm smiling, which I guess you can't
53:37
see. You know, for adults,
53:40
none of those things are bad if we can regulate them. And tying it back into people with ADHD that's going all this, as I guess both Russell Ramsey and I love his work. I can't believe you can just listen to his podcast. It's just great that you had it. But anyway, yeah, and Barclay both say, you know, ADHD is a self regulatory disorder, and so as we're looking at things, you know, addicted wise, you know, can I regulate my use of games, or is this particular game that I downloaded one that I don't feel like I can regulate it? It is just too intense to, you know, drawing, and so I'm going to have to forfeit whatever I pay for it and just move on to the next game. Because, listen to that intuition, because we just struggle to regulate. And these things are designed to be such that, I mean, the more we come back as a consumer, the more money they make, right? Yeah. So, you know, we're fighting an uphill battle and trying to regulate stuff, and so people just be mindful of that. Can I regulate it? Do I feel comfortable with this? Should I just dump it and move on? Because I'm gonna get bit, yeah. And the old line with, I mean, you pay for a game, so that might be a little different, but, but the old line with, like, social networks, for example, you know, if you are not paying for it, you are the product. So I love that social dilemma thing that is so great. That's such a profound point. And you just pulled out, yeah, yeah. Is there anything else?
55:00
That we wanted to talk about today, that that we didn't we didn't discuss as we as we wind it down.
55:08
No, I think we got a lot of you know that understanding our ADHD, learning to own it, be, be comfortable with it, accept it, and then managing it, and all the different ways you know, meds, counseling may need be needed to really deal with the impact of what I could where I could have gone, where I went instead, there's a whole mess that, you know, work with, and then coaching techniques and learning to get to where I want to go. What are my pieces and systems and routines and all that stuff, and then we can be just fine. Yeah? Now this is all of them. Yeah. This has been great. How can people get a hold of you? How can they learn more about your work and what you do and say a lot? My domain is Doc, Todd. Love, so d, O, C, T, O, D, D, l, o, v, e,
55:52
and free to email me to do Todd, love.com,
55:55
or check out. You know, I'm not a researcher or a publisher, you know any and that kind of stuff. I'm primarily focused as a clinician, but I do print my presentations and up that and stuff like that on my website so people can download it and try to get you know the stuff that I'm talking off one of my presentations right now, so they can get access to a lot of these points that I talked really quickly past. That's great. Yeah, and I encourage everybody to check your content out, because it's great stuff. Thank you so much. This has been fun. Thank you for having me. This has been fantastic.
