PODCAST. ADHD, Creative Recess, and Being Beautifully Weird with Jacob Nordby.

This episode is sponsored by Littlebird. Littlebird is an AI assistant that already knows your work, so you can draft, plan, and stay on top of everything without having to catch it up on context. Get a free trial plus $20 off your first month of Littlebird Plus today at wisesquirrels.com/littlebird.

Have you ever felt like an absolute outsider, trying to force your beautifully nonlinear brain into a starkly linear world? If you have ADHD, or suspect your brain operates on a slightly different frequency, you are far from alone. We have a free ADHD test BTW. ;)

In this episode of Wise Squirrels, Dave Delaney sits down with author, publisher, and creative guide Jacob Nordby (Blessed are the Weird, The Creative Cure). Together, they pull back the curtain on late ADHD diagnosis, unconventional upbringings, and how to stop trading your natural creativity for logic and predictability.

Whether you're an artist struggling with imposter syndrome or a business professional trying to find your "happy place," this conversation is a permission slip to embrace your inner weirdo.

Key Takeaways from the Episode

• Boredom is a Creative Catalyst: Growing up without TV or media until age 25 forced Jacob to look inward, proving that empty space is exactly what our minds need to spark original thought.

• The ADHD-Artist Pipeline: Many Wise Squirrels naturally gravitate toward counter-culture, rebellion, or the arts as a way to process a world not built for their operating system.

• Creativity Is Not Just "Art": Writing clean code, building a company culture, or tending a patio garden are all deeply creative acts.

• Take a "Creative Recess": To bypass the guilt of taking time for yourself, negotiate with your responsible adult self and reframe creative time as a simple, necessary recess.

From a Media-Free Childhood to Blessed are the Weird

Jacob’s origin story sounds like a novel. Conceived in Hawaii to hippie parents, he spent his childhood in Idaho inside a strict, fundamentalist Christian environment. He grew up completely insulated from mainstream culture with no TV, no movies, no radio.

While leaving that environment in his mid-20s left him feeling like a structural outsider, it also gifted him with something rare: a massive internal vacuum that his brain naturally filled with creativity.

Years later, while pulling over on a highway in Austin, Texas, Jacob scribbled a poem on the back of a stray envelope. That poem, Blessed are the Weird People, went massive online, shared millions of times by misfits, poets, and rebels worldwide.

"Blessed are the weird people—the poets, the misfits, the artists, the writers, the music makers, the dreamers, the outsiders—for they force us to look at the world differently." — Jacob Nordby

The ADHD Connection: Rewriting the "Broken" Narrative

One of the most profound moments of the episode highlights the intersection of creativity and neurodivergence. Jacob wrote Blessed are the Weird before receiving his official ADHD diagnosis. Looking back, he realizes the book resonated so deeply because it was subconsciously written by a neurodivergent person for neurodivergent people.

Dave shares his own journey of being diagnosed with ADHD at age 50, reflecting on the commonalities shared by those who mask their symptoms for decades:

• High rates of anxiety, depression, or burnout.

• A tendency to ignore or breeze past personal wins.

• Utilizing coping mechanisms like workaholism or substance use to quiet a fast-moving brain.

For anyone diagnosed late in life, discovering you are a Wise Squirrel isn't about finding out you're broken, it’s about finally receiving the user manual for your specific operating system.

Redefining Creativity Beyond Capitalism

We live in a culture that measures the value of creativity strictly by its price tag or market success. Jacob challenges this narrative, arguing that we need to unhook creative expression from capitalistic output.

He shares a story about his brother, a tech executive who claimed he wasn't creative, yet would slide into a flawless, piano-prodigy-like artistic "zone" when writing code.

Mapping the Frameworks of Transformation

Both Dave and Jacob have developed models to help people navigate self-acceptance, particularly through the lens of ADHD and sensitivity. The journey toward personal transformation is beautifully mirrored in both of their frameworks, highlighting a shared path from internal reflection to outward impact. More on Dave Delaney’s Root Down process in his ADHD Advantage.

Jacob Nordby’s model begins with Self-Discovery—tuning into your true nature—which perfectly aligns with Dave Delaney’s call to Know Yourself by deeply understanding your unique operating system. This foundational awareness naturally flows into Self-Acceptance, where Jacob encourages forgiving your personal workarounds and quirks, a step that beautifully complements Dave’s emphasis to Respect Yourself through self-love, journaling, and firm boundaries. Finally, this deep internal alignment shifts outward: Jacob champions Self-Expression as a way of breathing your authentic energy into the world, while Dave emphasizes the final step to Connect Yourself, urging us to build genuine proximity and find true community in an otherwise lonely world.

Overcoming Creative Guilt and Taking "Recess"

If you're a parent, spouse, or business owner, taking time for an "artist date" can trigger immense guilt. Dave notes the friction of trying to justify a solo creative excursion while his spouse is exhausted from a grueling day of teaching.

Jacob handles this internal and external resistance with two practical shifts:

1. Keep it Small: An artist date doesn't require an expensive, day-long trip. It can be a 45-minute visit to a local café just to smell the croissants, enjoy the atmosphere, and doodle. It’s simply about delighting your senses.

2. The Recess Deal: Talk to your hyper-responsible adult self. Say, “Hey, we’re just going to take a quick recess right now. I promise I'll let you take full control again the second it’s over.” Reframing it as a temporary break lets your anxious mind drop its guard.

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• Books by Jacob Nordby: The Creative Cure, Blessed are the Weird (Keep an eye out for the upcoming 10th Anniversary Edition!)

• Books by Other Authors: The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron, The Freaks Shall Inherit the Earth by Chris Brogan, Deep Work by Cal Newport.

• Free Resource: Snag Jacob’s free 5-to-10 minute daily journaling blueprint at creativeselfjournal.com.

• Transcript

  Jacob Nordby: I'm I'm a middle-aged white guy,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: dad of three kids. I've written some books and I've created some uh creativity groups and and communities that I'm that I love being part

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. Yeah. And you've done Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: of.

  Dave Delaney: You've done great work and and uh yeah I what what um and you're in Boise, is that right?

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah,

  Dave Delaney: But conceived in Hawaii.

  Jacob Nordby: correct. You did die, didn't you?

  Dave Delaney: Yeah, that's cool. And then uh where is it? Santa Rosa. Was that where you kind of kicked things off? Two two hippie parents.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: Tell me about that.

  Jacob Nordby: Well, they were hippies. My mom was literally in the middle of Hate Ashbury, Dave, 1967. So, she was right there. I mean, Ginsburg and all the people were were around her then. So, she and my dad met up at the Russian River.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: And um they thought they would come to Idaho, right? It was the party was kind of ending.

  00:04:29

  Jacob Nordby: This was 1973 and the party in California was kind of ending. And so, uh, they realized they weren't going to be able to drop enough acid to change the consciousness of the planet right then, you know, and literally though,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: cuz I've asked her like what what happened, you know, and they they moved to Idaho thinking there was homestead land because they wanted they wanted a a simple way of life and they got here and realized that wasn't available to them in the way they thought. So, they moved back here to Boisee and I spent my childhood here.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: that's that's great. And how did you go from uh two hippie parents like that to because then you spent like what was it like a decade or something in a cult? Is that correct? the religious kind

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah. Well, it was very fundamentalist Christian thing. Looking back, it's it has the characteristics of a cult for sure. We didn't live in a compound or anything, but overall there was a lot of we feared the outside world and and all of all of those characteristics.

  00:05:20

  Jacob Nordby: So, yeah. And I've asked her Dave a lot of like several times. We've had really good conversations about it. And she said, she said that she said, "Jacob, we were looking for certainty.

  Dave Delaney: Horton.

  Jacob Nordby: We were trying to find some kind of safety. We knew that we weren't going to find it in down the path we were going." And so they became attracted. And I think a lot of people either went from one extreme and found a different extreme. Um, whatever that might have been, but that's what they were looking for is somewhere to land that they felt protected. And and it it served that purpose. I don't look back at it and say I wish it hadn't happened. I'm glad I'm not there anymore. But um it was definitely a definitely an sort of a offbeat anomalous way to grow

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: up um outside of television, outside of all the inputs even back in the 80s, you know, and

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. and to to not, you know,

  00:06:04

  Jacob Nordby: 90s.

  Dave Delaney: to not see TV or a movie until you're 25. I mean, I was raised by TV like many of like many kids of the 70s, you know. Um, uh, I spent more time with, you know, the Ropers and and Leverne and Shirley and all the others, uh, than I did with my own family probably. Um, but that's interesting.

  Jacob Nordby: Right.

  Dave Delaney: So do you what were there takeaways things that you took away from that experience procon or kind of indifferent that kind of helped to inform who you

  Jacob Nordby: Yes. Uh yeah, you know, one on the con side,

  Dave Delaney: are

  Jacob Nordby: it took me a fair amount. I was the oldest of six kids, so I was, you know, kind of typical. I was very compliant, uh very responsible, followed the rules. Um I always had questions that couldn't be fully answered inside of that framework. And even as hard as I tried to comply, over time, I just the the questions added up over time. and and I began to realize there was an element of intellectual um a lack of intellectual honesty that that I couldn't I knew I couldn't stay in forever.

  00:07:16

  Jacob Nordby: So it wasn't until I was my mid20s that I began to actually leave. But the on the positive side uh I'm an amateur psychologist um and and I love neuroscience and how we form and trauma and all these things. um realizing in in my studies of creativity realizing that we actually need spaces that are um not as structured and not filled with activity. We actually need to be bored uh to to access parts of us,

  Dave Delaney: God forbid.

  Jacob Nordby: right?

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: And for for AD for ADD folks that's like oh my god. But when when there is space in our lives whether it's enforced or we somehow create it kind of like um uh deep work by Cal Newport talks about um when there's

  Dave Delaney: Mhm.

  Jacob Nordby: space our nature pours a vacuum vacuum. So we we will end up filling that with something. um if we fill it with ourselves,

  Dave Delaney: Mhm.

  Jacob Nordby: what we discover is that when there's space like that, that can feel boring and dull at first, but when there is space, we eventually begin creating.

  00:08:18

  Jacob Nordby: Um and so I would say that was probably one of the greatest benefits of growing up like that. I didn't have all the inputs.

  Dave Delaney: H

  Jacob Nordby: There were long stretches of time where there wasn't much to do but go outside and do something. And so began to find that that that idea, that theory was proved true over and over again. It's like yes things begin to happen in that space you

  Dave Delaney: yeah. Yeah. And but what about the from the success of um you know

  Jacob Nordby: know

  Dave Delaney: well let's talk about blessed are the weird because that was sort of your first sort of manifesto your first book and and that came from like a social media viral uh thing. So te like tell me a little bit about how that kind of came to be and because it does make the case in a in a sense perhaps although I'm as an early adopter in social media and online and all these things I'm I'm very much aware of how bad things have gotten and how much we need to be back in person.

  00:09:17

  Dave Delaney: I wrote a post recently called the power of proximity that tended to resonate with a lot of people. Um, but again with without the success of Blessed are the Weird or or at least of that that initial manifesto that you posted online um I don't know if that would have sparked if that was the spark. So without uh I'll shut up and ask a question, right? Uh so yeah. So tell me tell me about that like how did blessed are the weird come to be? Uh yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: I I I think it's funny when you said that ask a question. I'm kind of the king of asking really lengthy questions that people like go was there a question in there?

  Dave Delaney: Right. Well, yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: So whatever you just asked made perfect sense to me.

  Dave Delaney: Right.

  Jacob Nordby: Um yeah.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: So I interesting you say that also early adopter with social media. You probably had a MySpace page at one point,

  Dave Delaney: Oh, yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: I'm guessing.

  00:10:04

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. Yeah. Fster,

  Jacob Nordby: Friends,

  Dave Delaney: even I even I even ran a BBS on my Commodore 64 if that means anything.

  Jacob Nordby: sure.

  Dave Delaney: So,

  Jacob Nordby: Amazing. Yeah. So,

  Dave Delaney: yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: that's an interesting balance for me, Dave. And and I did I did have I actually had a previous book that was uh called the divine arsonist. So, I had published it. I started to be out there. People began knowing I was writing books. I wrote the little poem um blessed are the weird people when I was in Austin. And it was one of those experience cuz I'd moved there and and that's where I began writing about 35 years old. Uh listening to a a really old dream of mine when I was 10, wanted to be a writer. But I remember driving down the road and you know I had this Christian background.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: So there was there were these phrases, blessed are the and for some reason uh I was on Mopac and Austin driving and I remember this this sort of download feeling happening and blessed are the weird people, the poets, the misfit.

  00:10:58

  Jacob Nordby: and I literally pulled over and reached around under the seat of my car and found a found an envelope and wrote that piece out on the back of the envelope. Later, I got home and and was like, I kind of like that. So, I created a social media graphic and posted. And I had done a lot of that sort of thing. And some things got some attention, most didn't. But, um, this one took off and then it took off. Took off and then it really took and, you know, it's been shared millions of times. I even had a friend from um Southeast Asia take a picture somewhere in um wherever they were and it was written as a mural on the side of the wall.

  Dave Delaney: That's

  Jacob Nordby: And so it it you know the artist formerly known as Prince posted it at one point.

  Dave Delaney: cool.

  Jacob Nordby: I mean it was fascinating to me to see how many people resonated with it. And I' I then eventually began asking the question why why did did it matter to me and then if I were to explain it more in the form of a book.

  00:11:48

  Jacob Nordby: But what I realized, Dave, is partly it was my growing up um I always felt like an outsider as I entered the the rest of the world, outside of the um religious thing. I always felt like an outsider and also I didn't know it at the time because this was pre-diagnosis with with um ADD, but I be I always had felt like I operated and thought differently than a lot of

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: people. So, it was surprising to me. I wrote that little piece and posted it. What I discovered is I was far from alone and so many people raised their hand and said that's me too. So it was a gratifying and surprising experience.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. Yeah. And especially in Austin,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: which you know, which which everyone is trying to keep weird, of course. Um, so what year was that around?

  Jacob Nordby: Right.

  Dave Delaney: Like what year did you post that?

  Jacob Nordby: That must have been 2011 because I came back to Boise in 2012. Yeah.

  00:12:42

  Dave Delaney: Okay. Yeah. So still pretty early in in social media days 2011.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: So yeah, I mean Twitter started in 2006 and and YouTube and and things and so yeah,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: it's it it definitely that that window was a fun time for sure and Austin certainly

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: was probably besides like Silicon Valley uh I would say Austin was definitely the mecca with South by Southwest which I spoke at and I've been to many many times over the years.

  Jacob Nordby: Oh, yeah. Oh, cool.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. Yeah. I have a special place in my heart for for Southby and for Austin too. Um, so that's cool. Do you know uh have you crossed paths with Chris Broen by any chance?

  Jacob Nordby: Oh my god, the name. No, I've not met him in

  Dave Delaney: So Chris and I are old friends.

  Jacob Nordby: person.

  Dave Delaney: We've been around we've been friends for a long time since the very early days of podcasting and social media and all that stuff.

  00:13:33

  Dave Delaney: And and Chris wrote a great book also uh but you should check out um called uh he wrote a bunch of books but one called uh the freak shall inherit the earth.

  Jacob Nordby: Amazing.

  Dave Delaney: So I'm like, "You guys need to talk." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um so yeah, kind of a nice nice tiein there.

  Jacob Nordby: I'll definitely look that

  Dave Delaney: Um Yeah. So, um, and so I guess backing up a little bit,

  Jacob Nordby: up.

  Dave Delaney: so what brought you from like, so before you did that and and you were tapping back into sort of this creativity uh, work or creative work, you you were kind of doing the the nineto-ive or 8 to6 stuff as an entrepreneur and you worked in like real estate and other a tech company or tech startup or something. Tell me kind of about that window of your your life and kind of what what was go what was going on during that period.

  Jacob Nordby: I I had started I'd been in the mortgage industry for a while and I moved back home to Boisey from where I was living then in Michigan.

  00:14:32

  Jacob Nordby: Um and we started a mortgage company and then and then we ended up getting into real estate investment and these other projects.

  Dave Delaney: Mhm.

  Jacob Nordby: Um Dave, this would have been 20067. I everyone around me was like, you're obviously very successful. you're on your way. I was waking up at 3:00 a.m. every morning terrified. I felt like an impostor. Um I didn't feel successful at all.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: There was no inner peace. Uh a young guy came and worked for me in 2007 and he said, "Hey, um I'd like to have you go to a meditation retreat with me." And I'd been,

  Dave Delaney: Okay.

  Jacob Nordby: you know, I've been away from the religion for a while. I've been reading some some more new age kind of material. I'm like, "Yeah, I should learn how to meditate." Uh so I signed up for it. And when I showed up there, he actually picked me up. It was uh fall of 2007. If he hadn't driven me up there, I might not have gone.

  00:15:20

  Jacob Nordby: There was something in me that said, "This is scary." And I couldn't figure out rationally why. Turned out to be a shamanic initiation. And they were um they were administering uh DMT. I had never played with anything. So,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: this was my first experience. And it was uh shattering in a good way, but it definitely landed. You know,

  Dave Delaney: Mhm.

  Jacob Nordby: in recovery movements, they talk about that moment of clarity. And um and this was that for me. Uh later I learned more about the experience. It was like a chemically induced near-death experience. And um it was definitely one of those that said something's going to change. And there was also this sense of for the first time in my life, I experienced just some moments of peace of genuine freedom from being afraid. And I didn't know how to rearrange my actual life back home to align with that. and and didn't for a while. Uh went back and kept struggling to keep it all together.

  00:16:12

  Jacob Nordby: The mortgage meltdown came along and wiped everything out and everything literally stripped me of all the stuff, the identity, the everything, the money, the credit score, everything. And so I moved to Austin, Texas with my then uh wife and three little kids and we started from scratch and I had three part-time jobs while I was there. Um,

  Dave Delaney: Mhm.

  Jacob Nordby: and and that's where I started writing and really li tuning into that inner voice that said there's a different way for you to be in this world. And and um, so I'm awfully grateful. I don't wish that sort of experience on anyone, but I'm sure a lot of us have had

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: them.

  Dave Delaney: And did you have like the support of your wife ex-wife right at the or Yeah. So, but was she supportive of you doing that or were you sort of doing it on your own or because I know it helps, but you

  Jacob Nordby: I would yeah I would say I mean definitely supportive in terms of you

  00:16:58

  Dave Delaney: know

  Jacob Nordby: know she she was working and um we weren't hadn't ever really been on much of the same path intellectually or or all of that um and so most of this felt solitary to me frankly um yeah and um and and it was revealed feeling also and not she's a wonderful person. I'm really glad she's she's doing well now. Um probably better than ever with me.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: So,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: but yeah, no, it it felt a lot of that was solitary and um I spent a lot of time feeling confused and had I

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: understood then that, you know, I have this ADD thing, it would have been helpful. I don't it probably wouldn't have changed much, but it might have made me feel a little less broken. At the time, I'm just like I think I'm broken, you know?

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and and for listeners too, just to be clear for everybody, ADD and ADHD are the same thing.

  00:17:55

  Dave Delaney: It's just a different name now. Like it's just confusing because you know those who were diagnosed during a period it was ADD and then they changed the name just to confuse us. So ADD and ADHD are the same thing.

  Jacob Nordby: You actually cleared something up for me.

  Dave Delaney: So just to be Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: I did not actually know the distinction or or why they're okay.

  Dave Delaney: They're just trying to confuse us. Uh yeah. Yeah. It it was called like hyper kinetic boy or hyperinetic syndrome or something even before ADD and it's had like an array of different names uh you know

  Jacob Nordby: Okay.

  Dave Delaney: forever. So um yeah. Uh so yeah that's why like I mean it may have a different name next year or whenever the next DSM uh is published. So you know who's to say it's anyone's guess.

  Jacob Nordby: Sure.

  Dave Delaney: Um but uh and so you but you so you wrote Blessed are the Weird the book um before you were diagnosed officially diagnosed, right?

  00:18:50

  Dave Delaney: And before you so before you knew you you had or are whatever, however that goes with uh ADD or ADHD.

  Jacob Nordby: Yes.

  Dave Delaney: Um, and I'm I'm curious like did are there are there things looking back at that book that you would have changed knowing your oper I call it my operating system now. Um,

  Jacob Nordby: Mhm.

  Dave Delaney: I was diagnosed at 50 just before my 51st birthday. So just a handful of years ago. um knowing knowing yeah knowing kind of h what you know now

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: at least about ADHD ADHD like uh yeah are there things you would have changed maybe or thought about differently or something you might have added about blessed are the

  Jacob Nordby: Wow.

  Dave Delaney: weird

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah, great question. I I I wasn't explicit that this book was for neurode divergence at the time. In fact, it wasn't until people began interacting with the book and sending me notes,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: I began to realize, oh yeah, this and that began my own version of more self-discovery and realizing, oh yeah, this is really a book for neurode divergence, you know,

  00:19:52

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: and so I probably would be I'm actually getting ready to do a 10th anniversary edition this year. So, I'm adding some new material.

  Dave Delaney: Right.

  Jacob Nordby: I'm pulling some stuff out. Some of the stuff didn't age very well. Uh, a couple of figures I've mentioned um positively that have have evolved quite a bit since then. So, um, but yeah, I, as I go back to it, it's interesting. I've asked the similar question, Dave, like what what else would I put? How explicit would I be? And I think that I would like to be a little more explicit because it's not it's genuinely not a book that everyone will even get. What I've noticed is neurodeivergent people definitely and and highly sensitive folks definitely appreciate it in a

  Dave Delaney: Yeah,

  Jacob Nordby: different way.

  Dave Delaney: that's great. Um yeah, I interviewed uh Dana Cruz on an episode. She was great and she uh she's a big believer a big uh you know supporter and she she uh guides meditation and mindfulness retreats and things and she's really knows her work there really knows her stuff.

  00:20:46

  Dave Delaney: She has a second arrow I believe it's called the uh consulting or uh therapy and she's a coach I believe too. Um, but we really hit it off too because we um uh we both kind of grew up around the same time into like punk rock and and I grew up very much in the Toronto sort of punk rock scene, the um hardcore scene and like lots of lots of bands and and so we hit we hit on this thing when we were talking a while back sort of about how well it was partly because when I I usually I joke that like I came out of the mental health closet. uh when I announced that I was uh you know that I have ADHD uh because I kind of went on social media and started posting about it like hey guess what everybody I have ADHD and I started hearing from all these old friends from the the quote unquote scene back then uh who were messaging me saying oh yeah you wouldn't believe how many

  Jacob Nordby: Wow.

  Dave Delaney: people including me or you know whomever that that have ADHD and the more I thought about it the lyrics the the rebellion the addiction uh in you know all

  00:21:49

  Jacob Nordby: Mhm.

  Dave Delaney: of that I mean all my friends we all drank like fish and smoke like chimneys and

  Jacob Nordby: Sure.

  Dave Delaney: I at least blacked out many many nights most a lot during during that time. Um and yeah so there is this sort of connection I think between sort of rebellion and and art and punk rock and and and undiagnosed ADHD because of the

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: the tens that were like you know were prone to you know addiction and especially when left

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: untreated and undiagnosed certainly. So, um, did you find that too? Like I, it's interesting because like when I think about my that era of, you know, my 20s, I had friends going to college and they all went or my some of my closest friends went to like this uh big art college in Toronto, uh, uh, OKAD it's called now. Um, and I was didn't bother for a few years and then I thought, oh, I should do something. So, I went to like a community college to study like radio and television broadcasting because I like radio and TV.

  00:22:54

  Dave Delaney: Um, but that didn't really go anywhere because then I was like, "Okay, well, now I'll get a job in radio." But I was already in like the largest market in Canada, which anybody in broadcasting will tell you if you want to be on air or something, you've got to move to the tiniest market and then gradually hope to get back to the biggest one.

  Jacob Nordby: Well,

  Dave Delaney: what you know in the states of course that would be LA or New York or something. Um and so I say all that because while these

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: guys may not have said I'm an artist, they certainly in my eyes were and are.

  Jacob Nordby: Mhm.

  Dave Delaney: And it's taken me many years to realize I am too. But I never really considered myself that.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: Uh never really like landed on the thing. and I'm still dabbling. So, I don't know, yeah, if there's a question in there, but like for people listening who I'm not an artist, you know, I would argue everybody has some sort of artistic or creative outlet.

  00:23:54

  Dave Delaney: I mean, you said it's the vital spark of life, right? Um, so for those who haven't tapped into that,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: what what are some ideas or recommendations?

  Jacob Nordby: Uh if you don't mind, I want to ask you a quick question.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: with if you when you announced that diagnosis, how many people around you like close to you were like, "That's not news." I mean, was was were a lot of people like,

  Dave Delaney: Oh,

  Jacob Nordby: "Of

  Dave Delaney: yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: course."

  Dave Delaney: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. My uh Yeah. And my wife's a school teacher, so like if I always say the moral of the story is just listen to your partner.

  Jacob Nordby: Okay.

  Dave Delaney: Uh because she was like she'd said it a bunch of times over the years and I'm like, "Yeah, whatever." And didn't listen and yeah,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: finally got diagnosed. So, yes.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. No, absolutely.

  00:24:37

  Jacob Nordby: Same.

  Dave Delaney: And then the more you learn about yourself through the that looking at that lens, you realize like,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: oh yeah, it was Yeah. So

  Jacob Nordby: Oh my god. Well, and you know, for me, same same examp,

  Dave Delaney: clear

  Jacob Nordby: you know, interesting to begin to discover the coping mechanisms, the workarounds. Um, some of which are really positive, but also some of some of them, speaking for myself, some of them, you know, is definitely trying to accommodate or compensate for something that that when I learned more about it, I realized, oh, I don't need to do that. So I was able to shed some some behaviors, you know, over time. But uh yeah, you asked the question and honestly Dave, that's why the publisher asked me to write the creative cure eventually. Um he said look there are people respond to this but he said a lot of people are also I was working for that publisher at the time when I published blessed are the weird my on my own and he said the problem is a lot of people don't really view themselves as you know the punk or the artist or the rebel or whatever but he's like they they have a longing to do that and and he said I would love for you to write a book that was more um directed to people who wouldn't

  00:25:41

  Jacob Nordby: self-identify as creative and that was one of the core things that we began with which is so many People say I'm just not creative or I don't have a creative bone in my body. Uh my brother Nate is a great example of that. When I was writing that book, we were walking through the office of this um tech business we had started and he was managing at that point he was running the company. I was managing senior devs and we were walking through and he was just showing me all the things that were going on. It was impressive and I was excited for him and uh he asked me about the book and I was telling him and then he turned and looked at me and he had that wistful look and he said, "I'm just not creative." And then we walked right into his office. He sat down and there were three screens and it looked like the Matrix code on all of them to me. He sat down, Dave,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: and his posture changed. It was like watching a pianist sit down at a grand piano and go into a zone.

  00:26:34

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: He actually kind of forgot I was there for a minute and he was working away and then he's like, "Oh, hang. I'll do that later." And I said,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: "What just happened?" And he said, "I don't know. I just I just went back into my into my happy place." And I said, "To me it looked like you're working with code. You don't think that's artistic, but to me it looked like you were entering that artistic zone." And he said, "I've never thought of it like that." I'm like, "Yeah." So many of us, our culture has defined creativity largely by its product, the book or the music or the whatever. Um, and also we tend to value it only based on which things have sold a lot of things. And a lot of people assume they don't have access or don't have the capacity for creative expression, Dave. Um, not realizing that if we unhook it from all of these markers and say, "What turns you on?" And I've had people go,

  00:27:25

  Jacob Nordby: "It's quiet." Like, "Nobody will ever know, but I I love the garden on my back patio." And and and then they begin to realize many things become artful for them. So, I've invited many people to begin to experience themselves outside of the capitalistic definition of this is what it has to be for you to credibly call yourself an artist. Ask yourself what what areas of my life do I love to make artful? And if I allowed myself to see myself as an artist, what areas of my life would I begin to fill up with my own self, with my my own energy, you know? Right. Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: No, that's great. That's that's that's awesome. And yeah, I mean I would agree uh you know having worked in technology and you know and knowing that like yeah developers even when I I mean I don't claim to be a developer but I do you know enough know enough to break things often. Um so but yeah developers I mean code is art,

  Jacob Nordby: Right.

  00:28:25

  Dave Delaney: code is music, code is poetry like and and figuring it out is is uh is a great thing but now in the

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: era of AI we'll we'll see what happens with that.

  Jacob Nordby: Wow.

  Dave Delaney: But among other things uh yeah um so so

  Jacob Nordby: Seriously.

  Dave Delaney: I'm listening to this I'm being somebody else uh listening to this thinking okay I can't like let's say I I love to write or love to act or I used to act and I don't anymore or like I'll give you an example like for me when I was 50 before I was diagnosed um I decided now I studied did improv at Second City in Toronto. So I have a lot of background in improv. I had my own troop in Ireland when I lived in Ireland. Um and so I've and I've done improv here as well in Nashville. Um and it's actually part of some of the stuff that I teach uh companies and professionals like in communication like using skills from improv. Um, so I've done improv, I do I've done like storytelling and events and and I do a lot of like or not enough but when I do uh you know I love to deliver presentations, keynotes and all that stuff.

  00:29:38

  Dave Delaney: Hello dopamine.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah,

  Dave Delaney: Uh that's that's a good way to get the dopamine. Um so but you know when I was so I was saying when I was 50 I started doing standup.

  Jacob Nordby: totally.

  Dave Delaney: I did six open mics in six weeks to experiment. And I've always loved comedy, um, not just improv. And I wanted to like I've always wanted to do standup. And so I just I took a improv 101 or a stand-up 101 type class of like eight weeks or whatever really with the intention and I as a speaker I study comics also as a fan. I study comics because, you know, they're the best of the best. I mean,

  Jacob Nordby: Mhm.

  Dave Delaney: you can't I mean, I always love sharing that like comedians, like as a comedian, you need a live audience to know if your stuff's any good. For like musicians,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: you can jam with in your basement or garage with your friends until you feel like you have something that sounds half decent and you agree on it and then you get a gig and see what happens.

  00:30:28

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: But for but you know,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: but for a single comedian that you there's no way to know if it's good until you test it. Um, and I've often thought,

  Jacob Nordby: Right.

  Dave Delaney: "Oh man, I would love to get into like acting again and getting into comedy and standup and all this stuff, but then I have like two kids in college and I've got a wife who, you know, is a school teacher and bust her ass all day while I'm sitting here talking to cool people like you."

  Jacob Nordby: Sure.

  Dave Delaney: Um, you know, at some point there's this fear, right, of of well, if I if I shift gears, like I'm not I'm gonna go broke,

  Jacob Nordby: Sure.

  Dave Delaney: right?

  Jacob Nordby: And that's

  Dave Delaney: And Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: legitimate.

  Dave Delaney: And so you have what's like it's like a fine line between like the the realities of the society we live in, the capitalist society we live in where there are bills and all the things.

  Jacob Nordby: Sure.

  Dave Delaney: So, how do you find that balance between like if somebody wants to embark in something uh super creative and artistic and and maybe do that in a way Yeah, maybe I'm answering my own question.

  00:31:36

  Dave Delaney: I'll I'll I'll see what your what what your thoughts are on this,

  Jacob Nordby: Well, I I feel like it's not something that's always easy to define.

  Dave Delaney: right?

  Jacob Nordby: So, I love I love hearing your stories about this and around it, Dave. Um, one thing that I work with people a lot. I used to do a lot of one-on-one work with writers in particular, and I still do some, but um, one thing I noticed was a lot of people who had been working in a cubicle or whatever for decades would come to me and they're like, "My job is killing me. Uh, it it just rings. I feel like I'm steamrolled at the end of the day. I have no juice left for creativity. I'm going to quit my job and I'm going to become a full-time writer. And I'd be like, whoa, hang on. Um, do you what's your financial backing like?

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: I mean, and they would go, "Well, not much, but you know, I figure I can make it. I hear people are making it on blogs and stuff,

  00:32:25

  Jacob Nordby: and and I'll I'll encourage them to do this." Like first of all, you're going to put your art and your development of the art of yourself under so much financial pressure that you're likely to be under the same kind of steamroller uh that you feel like you're in back at your cubicle job. Um and so I would encourage them not to make that leap, you know, Ray Bradbury, leap off a cliff and build your wings on the way down. I've done that sometimes and it's uh it's exhilarating.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: talk about dopamine uh and also all the uh cortisol and adrenaline.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: But I I invite them to if I'm like,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: "Hey, if you really need to quit your job, um then do it. But go go go get a a part-time job or two for a variety of reasons. You'll have some money coming in. You're going to take care of your psyche. Uh that says you're nuts. Also, if you have 8 to 12 hours a day to do nothing but writing, you will not do it,

  00:33:19

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. Right.

  Jacob Nordby: right?

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: Uh you're you're going to drive yourself crazy. Um there's something about a bit of a compressed thing,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: a compressed amount of time um that that is often more useful. So, but the other big thing, Dave, that I work with people on is you're imagining this bridge that is probably too far be where you are right now, and you're seeing people who are earning full-time livingings um and maybe even more than that doing their art. So, you're comparing where you are now to where they are. Um, one of the crucial things in really connecting with what's alive in there and then bringing it out is to realize that we have to be willing to return to the beginner's mind. We have to become students again. Um, and for somebody who's 45 or 50 years old,

  Dave Delaney: H.

  Jacob Nordby: um, they've already developed a career, expertise, credentials, it is sometimes really hard to convince ourselves to go back and do something that's awkward. Um,

  00:34:18

  Dave Delaney: Mhm.

  Jacob Nordby: maybe they love to draw as a child and they really want to develop their art. That's great. When you're 6 years old, there's no pressure on you to do good art. Now you're 45 or 50, you're feeling the pressure. You're seeing people's stuff on Instagram and you're going, "Oh my god, I can do this. I can do this." But there's not that period of beginner. So, I invite people be willing to do things badly for a while. Like, I want to learn the guitar. I I have for a long time. I played the violin as a kid, but I always want to learn the guitar. Trouble is, I'm really bad at the guitar, Dave. I sit down and my fingers hurt and and I don't make any good sounds, so I need to be able to push through that. And that requires me to I need to do that sooner rather than later. Make the time to be a beginner in that area. Um, right?

  00:35:04

  Jacob Nordby: And so I see that as a barrier for a lot of people because then the mind begins to tell the story. Look how bad I am at this. Look how awkward. I'll never get good enough. So, when we are attaching the money thing to it, which by the way, I'm not at all saying we shouldn't or or can't earn a living with with our creativity. Not at all. But when that becomes the first thing, I've seen more people give up on developing their art, whatever it might be, uh because of that, than any other thing. They begin to tell the story and believe the story. This will never be good enough. And the fact is it won't because they're not going to invest the time into it to develop it, you know?

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. Well, I think and having your background some background in, you know, the entrepreneurial world, there's like this term MVA, right? like the or MVP rather, the minimum viable product and and and business plans and all that boring stuff too of like but coming

  00:35:50

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: up with an idea for a business or a product or service or what have you and then testing it and marketing it and and pivoting and all that stuff for a business um to

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: to but as far as so there's like there's these steps that you take in a business to grow a business or at least you know seemingly you should take perhaps um that these steps you should take to at least like prove whatever it is that you want to do is viable as a business um uh or an entrepreneurial endeavor or what have you. Um, but on the flip side, like from an artistic uh endeavor, are there steps, they they probably aren't the same thing necessarily, but are there steps to take to kind of vet an idea to see if it is? Because like if it is viable, like if if I were like, oh man, you know, like I talked to my therapist a while back. I'm like, man, I would love to just be a comedian. like just start doing open mics all the time and then working my way to like a Netflix special or a YouTube video that is you know a long thing and then go on the road and start doing this and then I realized like well hold on I mean most comedians are starving first of all and

  00:37:06

  Jacob Nordby: Sure.

  Dave Delaney: and I mean you know God bless them but they they you know they are certainly initially and most most people are um that way so it's like it's not logical so I'm quick to dismiss it and say, "Well, no, I shouldn't do that." But are there steps you you take with your clients or that you talk

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: about where someone should think about that as like I know you have like a three four a three-fold process of like self-discovery, self-acceptance and transformation which a lot of the book by the way the the creative cure really resonate with me because I've come up with something since being diagnosed called I call it the root down and I have a keynote presentation I do for it and it's partly about my ADHD diagnosis and also to help inspire people to get diagnosed and treat treated if they think they have ADHD of course. Um and and for others just to understand more about ADHD.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: Um so there's that side of it but the other side is like uh the root down is like to know yourself, respect yourself and connect yourself.

  00:38:13

  Dave Delaney: So knowing is like understanding your strengths,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: understanding how your operating system perhaps um respecting yourself and that includes self-love, self-acceptance, journaling, meditation. Um and then the third part is about uh uh connecting yourself because we live in this kind of loneliness epidemic that's you know and really kicking our butts and we're fooling ourselves into believing that we're having you know genuine connection when we live on social

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: media. Um,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: so that all said, you know, you have those three sections, self-discovery, self-acceptance, transform, and transformation. Are there is like somebody hires you to say like I I'm I need to figure out how I could become a painter full-time or something or is that I don't know like tell me about the process and maybe like how that how that works with people or the feedback you're getting from readers or what have you.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah. Wow. That's a really interesting question. And I'll just add I love your root down model. That's and it's so similar.

  00:39:14

  Jacob Nordby: I mean that's what I love is there's so many parallels.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. Thanks.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: Well, and I've actually since since that creative cure, I'm actually working on another one right now.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: But um self self-discovery, self-acceptance and now I've now I've added self-expression as the third one. I mean it all of it is transformation because to me transformation is simply becoming um as

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: we're becoming right and to me self-expression becomes natural when we learn more about who we really are including a a diagnosis like like some neurody divergence. It's like now I know better who I am,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: you

  Dave Delaney: Right. Right.

  Jacob Nordby: know?

  Dave Delaney: And I love the self-expression component of it too because that is sort of that that output, right? That that's the part where the the the the paint hits the

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: canvas.

  Jacob Nordby: Well, it is. And I I also wanted to rewind just a moment and because I know you have a lot of people in business um who listen to you and you know, it's easy to kind of look at the creative folks as these rag tag the hippies, the folks out kind of outside of all that.

  00:40:11

  Jacob Nordby: The fact is, I want to be clear that that people who have a calling and and and tremendous passion for creating businesses. It's usually much more than just the money. They want to create the culture and the product and the whole and the systems. I I just want to be clear with your business listeners that is as much an expression of beautiful art as as anything else, right?

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: So, you know, any of these things can become their own can become their own drudgery.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: But but the fact is I just that's the main thing for me is that the creative nature wants to find its way out that self-expression part you know and if you look at the roots of the word express I mean it's it's partly to breathe out it's we're actually breathing out so the more room we make inside of ourselves and the more we discover how we tick and why we tick um the more that expression becomes natural um I in terms of like okay here's the steps to actually develop a thing I mean there are wonderful you know the the the 10,000 hour rule, some of these things.

  00:41:10

  Jacob Nordby: There's some really great material and teachings out there about it. One thing though that I go back to my 15-year-old self, and my father was a violin maker and he was a violinist and I learned to play the violin and so I had become part of the Tacoma uh Washington Youth Symphony. And yeah,

  Dave Delaney: You know what?

  Jacob Nordby: and the truth is I truth is I was good enough to be there um but not not great, Dave. And I and I was working with a teacher who was the first chair at the Seattle Symphony and so very good at what she did obviously. And and I asked her one time, you know, because I was working hard and I was practicing a lot. And I asked her, "Do I have enough talent to become a professional violinist?" Cuz I really thought that that's what I wanted to be. God, she gave me such kind advice. She said, "Jacob, you do but you um but you the truth is you're up against a lot of people who started when they were 2 years old and by 15 they're already ready to step out on the stage and and and play the the main, you know, play the solo, play the play the conerto or whatever." She said,

  00:42:19

  Jacob Nordby: "You could do it, but you right now would have to pretty much not have a job, not have a social life. you'd need to be practicing eight hours a day. Is that what you want? It was powerful and I I didn't at the time and it didn't feel critical. It didn't feel crushing. It felt like, hey, be honest with yourself here. Um the truth is I had many interests and I wasn't ready to to hold, you know, go in a cave and practice 8 to 12 hours a day. That was great advice. What's interesting is later um I realized that I had really even before I wanted to become a great violinist, I wanted to be a writer. That was an early thing. And also there were these moments down through my life, Dave, where I would write something and it didn't feel like that difficult. Um and I would get a lot of um a lot of approval, a lot of like people were like, "Wow, that made me feel something. That was great." And I didn't know how to value it.

  00:43:17

  Jacob Nordby: It was like, okay, it was easy. It didn't didn't seem like much. So later in life when I began to actually become serious about writing and working at it and studying it and all that, um, I began to realize that's what resonated most with me. I had all these interest and yes, there were different outlets like the the violin. My violin teacher said, "Hey, you could totally keep doing this and when you're 40, rent a hall and have a recital and fill it with people." Like there's no reason you can't still have an expression of this, but you might not want to make it your main thing.

  Dave Delaney: right?

  Jacob Nordby: And this is a really longass circular way of answering your question,

  Dave Delaney: No, it's good.

  Jacob Nordby: right?

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: I feel like most of us have things I call it in my, you know, slightly less uh linear way. I call it kind of like Hansel and Gretle. We've been dropping breadcrumbs along the way through our lives. And often people will come to me in their in their mid-50s or even 60s or later and they're like, I feel like life's passed me by.

  00:44:11

  Jacob Nordby: I don't feel like I even know what I love anymore. I don't have any idea. When I begin to say, let's not focus on that so much. Tell me what you have loved. What have you done naturally? What have been times when you really wanted a different way to be? Uh, sorry. My my cat is named Crack Weasel and he is uh scratching at the post. I'm going to let him out real quick because he is clearly desperate to get

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: out.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: He earned that name. He came back from the shelter with the name Odin Dave and uh as soon as he got here he earned crack weasel.

  Dave Delaney: Is he related?

  Jacob Nordby: So we are absolutely sure he uh passed last

  Dave Delaney: Is he related? What happened to himself? Oh,

  Jacob Nordby: year.

  Dave Delaney: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: I know

  Dave Delaney: I read about the the the name and I was like, "Oh man, that's a great name." Himself.

  00:44:56

  Jacob Nordby: clearly he has clearly he has ADHD as well.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: So

  Dave Delaney: Um Oh, that's amazing. Uh no, I mean that's really helpful. I think um yeah, I read that you argue that I wrote that we often trade our natural creativity for logic, predictability, and responsibility. And that's due to childhood socialization or trauma.

  Jacob Nordby: Mhm.

  Dave Delaney: And I'm a big believer um that with undi with the it's an interesting time with with ADHD especially because the stigma stigmas are largely being removed and mental health is being embraced and more and more people are being diagnosed which is fantastic and um in that process too like you often it's the the parent obviously that takes their child the child gets diagnosed the parent often a mother get realiz I the woman in that case or the mother gets realizes like oh s*** I have this like this is exactly how my kid oh that's me and so because women were

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: typically five years they have a five years delay or not delay but they were not they have a women typically were diagnosed five years after men on average so they kind of missed

  00:46:06

  Jacob Nordby: Here.

  Dave Delaney: women um but that's I've I've come come to

  Jacob Nordby: Is that is that is that because of heightened masking and all

  Dave Delaney: realize yeah well I think it's a combination of things I I think maybe it's

  Jacob Nordby: that?

  Dave Delaney: partly I I don't know for for sure, but I think it's partly sexism and and misogyny uh in the medical industry back in the day. But in in but more in addition to that and maybe more so, there's three presentations of ADHD. Um, there's a hyperactive impulsive, which I always say is like the Bart Simpson, which is typically more male, but not always. And that was me. So, the kid disrupting the class, the parent, the, you know, the teacher's like, "Get this kid out of here." Um,

  Jacob Nordby: Okay.

  Dave Delaney: you know, and then there's the the inattentive, uh, predominantly inattentive presentation, and that tends to be more female. Uh, again, it could go either way, but,

  Jacob Nordby: Mhm.

  Dave Delaney: um, so that's more the Lisa Simpson. Um so the girl daydreaming in class doesn't disrupt the class and thus was completely missed back in the day.

  00:47:04

  Dave Delaney: And then women were often diagnosed with anxiety or depression which is a common coorbidity with ADHD that often come along with ADHD for everybody. Um but um they ended up got getting getting treated for those things without recognizing or diagnosing or treating the ADHD which is often kind of the underlying

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: uh uh root cause of of said um but what I was also driving at and there's the combined presentation which um as well but I what I was driving at too as far as trauma goes is that like our generation with undiagnosed ADHD as as children certainly our parents didn't have diagnosed ADHD back then.

  Jacob Nordby: right?

  Dave Delaney: And so that can account for a lot of trauma, impulsivity or alcohol or whatever,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: right? Um, and so it was a long way of going all the way around to get back to present day where like our, you know, I learn about my ADHD, my child gets diagnosed with ADHD and I understand their ADHD and knowing what I know about myself and with my treatment, I may not be so quick to or impulsive or like a I may not be a jerk to my kid and and cause some sort of traumatic uh stuff.

  00:48:18

  Jacob Nordby: Hey.

  Dave Delaney: So it's in a sense kind of in a roundabout way. I'm not suggesting this will end trauma entirely, of course, but I think it will greatly reduce and increase empathy as far as parents and children go. And so I think the future's pretty bright for kids, I think, because of this as more parents get it diagnosed though.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: Um, so it is Yeah, it is it is interesting. Um, yeah. No,

  Jacob Nordby: What was the what was the what was the third uh manifestation?

  Dave Delaney: I Oh,

  Jacob Nordby: So we had Bart and Lisa. What was the third one?

  Dave Delaney: I I uh uh that's that's the combined presentation. So, it's kind of a bit of both.

  Jacob Nordby: Okay. Okay.

  Dave Delaney: I always use I use Calvin from Calvin and Hobbs as that example. Um, right. I I one thing that I've heard is true,

  Jacob Nordby: Okay.

  Dave Delaney: but I don't know 100% and I never claim I'm very mindful and careful about saying misinformation here.

  00:49:09

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: Um, so I'm always very careful. Um, but I believe and I' I've heard this from some PhDs and doctors and so on that as as a child, yes, you're probably more inattentive or more hyperactive, impulsive, but as you mature and you get older and you learn coping mechanisms and masking and all these things, good or bad. Um, I think you start to mature and become more combined. I think maybe you you go through periods of of being more one or the other, but you tend to be more combined because I think you kind of balance things out in a in good or

  Jacob Nordby: Where?

  Dave Delaney: bad ways, right? Like I mean my 20s, 30s were like with alcohol. So it was like, you know, drinking a lot and hanging out with friends. And so I didn't realize then that I was kind of masking or this was this alcohol was a coping mechanism to help me kind of just slow my brain down,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: to help me kind of just have fun and let loose and also sort of my own sort of lack of self-respect and imposttor syndrome and all those things I

  00:50:15

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: think also played a role in that sort of being more self-destructive I suppose.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: Um but yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah. Interesting.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. Um but I love that you say like creativity is that vital spark of life and that you know people should uh should you know tap into their own um tell me about conscious storytelling.

  Jacob Nordby: Oh

  Dave Delaney: I remember reading something about that like the yeah like kind of tapping into the the ability of of

  Jacob Nordby: yeah.

  Dave Delaney: of you know your own storytelling.

  Jacob Nordby: Well, we we all have this we all have these this lore about us, you know, and some of it's formed um by our families um by the outside folks observing us and talking to us or about us. Um and so we end up then beginning to create these reality tunnels with our

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: with our words, with our stories, you know. Um we we say things like I'm just not creative or I'm not good at blah blah blah. Um and we begin to and the more that we tell those stories, the more we believe them, the more we behave according to those stories, you know.

  00:51:22

  Jacob Nordby: And so I love journaling. Um I I love journaling. I'm a writer, so I tend to, you know, if you learn to use a hammer, everything's a nail. But I love I love sharing the I love sharing simple journaling techniques even with people who hate journaling,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: who don't who don't see themselves as writers. Um, because what I've discovered, and as you mentioned before, Julia Cameron's a actual friend, which is one of those crazy things the universe just delivered.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: Um, I love having these conversations with her because and it's interesting.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: I just led a group through her 12-week artist way process that's in her book about a year ago. Um, you know, and and the first time I went through it, it was all new to me. Fast forward 15 years and I've learned about trauma and I've delved into psychology a lot more and all of these things and I was astonished by how crisp, relevant and sharp a lot of her psychological underpinnings for her for her processes are, you know.

  00:52:20

  Jacob Nordby: Um, but part of why I love that,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: and she addresses those things in the artist way as well, would be what stories am I telling? And I've watched her do this in in workshops. I've learned how to do this as well. Um, I believe that artists are dot dot dot and begin to then write what you the tapes that are running in your head. Um, they're and and it's interesting. Some people have very positive tapes running, but a lot of people have negative tapes.

  Dave Delaney: H.

  Jacob Nordby: And so when we begin to catch and I wouldn't say dissect just become aware here are the beliefs that I have accepted along the way. Um many of them happened before I even knew my own name. Many of them are are in some way trauma connected. Um and we think of trauma as capital T trauma Dave. You know the big stuff that shows up on the ACES assessment. What I've noticed in working with people is I've had I've had people come to me um behind the scenes after a workshop and say, "I just took the aces. I'm like a zero or a one,

  00:53:24

  Jacob Nordby: so why am I still so f***** up?" And I'm like, "Wow, let's talk about that." What's interesting is we begin to discover that it's often not the capital T traumas that really affect our sense of self. It is those they those things definitely do. But a lot of people things that don't hit the aces such as you know low-key pervasive bullying at school, having an overly critical parent, that's not on the aces anywhere. That kind of thing though begins to help us form these stories about ourselves. I'm not lovable.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: I'm not safe. I don't belong here. I I deserve to be left or rejected. Underneath all of it is this belief I don't matter. So when I'm sitting with people, it's usually not the positive stories we need any help with. It's the stuff that we don't even we're not even aware that we're telling and then behaving in alignment with that need to be spotted and gently gently unwound. Uh you know,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  00:54:23

  Dave Delaney: No, that's helpful. I I think Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: yeah.

  Dave Delaney: You know, there's this stat that floats around the ADHD world that and I don't even know where it comes from or even how it was measured, but the general idea makes a lot of sense, which is that uh a child hears 20 20,000 negative things about the himself or herself before the age of 10

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: from strictly from like uh uh people like teachers and and parents. parents and adults uh in their life and it makes a lot of sense,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: you know, like sit down, shut up,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: like you know, or whatever era you're you're in. Um I guess that that type of of trauma or you know, takes different shapes, of course. Um but yeah, I think I think you you experience like something I always tell people is, you know, there's this uh line about and I don't know the source. I thought I knew it and then I fact checked it. It wasn't I don't I think it's unknown really but that um the more you look into the p the more you think about the past um that can or when you think about the past too much it can lead to depression and if you think too much of the future it can lead to anxiety and so this key thing is being present and being in the moment and trying to live in the moment and of course to the best of your ability I mean we all have

  00:55:44

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: responsibilities and things so you have to like do you know think about the the future and the and especially when you own a business

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: you have to look back and see what's worked, what hasn't. So, it's not to say you're abandoning any sort of,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: you know, reflection or or planning, but at the same time, I think there's a lot, especially for ADHDers with depression and anxiety usually running in the background. Um, it's it's so important to to try to be present. That's why I'm a big proponent of mindfulness and meditation and and Julia Cameron's book. I find a couple things with ADHD,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: too. Like one, and again generalizing, but for myself at least with ADHD, you don't or I don't tend to celebrate wins.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: I I'm just so quickly to move on to the next thing. And I've taken I read Julia Cameron's book, you know, I've read The Artist Way years ago and I've reread it multiple times and done morning pages, you know, on and off uh since then.

  00:56:42

  Dave Delaney: But the I always love the idea of the artist day and I finally took one last year and it was fantastic. It was great. It was really great.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: The the problem though is that my wife, an underpaid, underappreciated, you know, public school teacher, is slaving away while I'm visiting museums and cafes and and I'm

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: like, I'm feeling really guilty about and I often feel guilty even sitting here talking to you right

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: now. I know she's doing exactly what I just said. And she gets home and she's exhausted and I'm the extroverted freak and she's the introvert.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: So, she gets home and I'm like, "Hey, honey. has and she's like, "No, no, no. Like, I'm going to the bedroom and you won't see me for a couple hours." And I'm like,

  Jacob Nordby: Right. Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: "It's me and the dog again." Um, but uh how how does one handle that as they tap

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  00:57:36

  Dave Delaney: into creativity or artistic endeavors as it applies to sort of this uh this guilt

  Jacob Nordby: That's a great one. Um, I think when we begin to understand that, especially using the the artist date as an example, um, it doesn't even have to be a full day.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: You know, she she she likes to say I've taught with her many times and I love listening to her explain these things to people.

  Dave Delaney: Jesus.

  Jacob Nordby: She's like, um, take two or three hours and go do something that will delight your senses. And people often ask her, what what kind of states do you love? and she'll say, I remember her telling me this one time privately. She said, "Yeah, I just went to the bookstore today. I went over to the uh children's section and I sat down in a little chair and I read Black Beauty because I used to love that when I was young." And that's a that's a great example.

  Dave Delaney: Oh. Uh.

  Jacob Nordby: And people think they have to be these elaborate or lengthy experiences.

  00:58:35

  Jacob Nordby: She said, "Really, you're just sending a signal to your inner self that I matter. That the that refreshing myself and nourishing myself and delighting myself,

  Dave Delaney: Mhm.

  Jacob Nordby: that's the thing." She's like, "Everyone wants to be so serious about this. Think of of little adventures you can take yourself on where you will be delighting at least two of your senses." She said, "If you can delight four of your senses, even better. Five, even better." She's like, "Go to a cafe, smell the croissants and the fresh coffee. Sit there and and sketch what you see out the window." Um, there's so many ways to do it, but I think a lot of it feels like it has to be really lengthy. And if we realize it can really just be a a half day thing um or or a two or three hour thing. You know, when I first did it when I was living in Austin, I remembered feeling the same way, Dave. Like my then wife was working hard at a medical office, my kids were in school, I was working a part-time job, so I had a little more flexibility.

  00:59:28

  Jacob Nordby: And I would go and take the time and I would I would feel illegitimate the whole time.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: second or third time doing it, I realized I actually show up as a better partner,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: as a better dad when I am not constantly flogging myself. And I'm curious your take on this. Like for me, when you mentioned guilt and and the lack of ability to celebrate a win, like, oh, sure, that's done. Let's go on to the next thing. Um, I'm curious if that if those are pretty well-known attributes of ADHD. Is that is that something you hear a lot?

  Dave Delaney: a guilt you mean?

  Jacob Nordby: Sure.

  Dave Delaney: Um, it's a good question. I don't I don't know. I don't I don't know. Yeah,

  Jacob Nordby: What about the celebrating wins part,

  Dave Delaney: it's not really celebrating wins.

  Jacob Nordby: you know, like Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah, that is something that we over Yeah,

  Jacob Nordby: Like

  Dave Delaney: we overlook or we don't Yeah, we I think and I I don't know what it is and I think it it probably has connection and again I'm just guessing

  01:00:16

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: riffing here, but I would guess that it's probably to do with either anxiety and depression that's running in the background, but also probably trauma,

  Jacob Nordby: Sure.

  Dave Delaney: especially our generation or older generations, the trauma they face. so that um you kind of second guessess yourself or what you're doing and and maybe you end up feeling kind of crummy that way. Um but yeah, no, but to your point, I mean, I think you're right. I like the way you said that because I almost think about like um like exercise, for example. Like I I try to go out for like a three- mile walk every morning. I try to. I don't every day, but I try to. And sometimes when I started doing it, I started thinking like,

  Jacob Nordby: Apple.

  Dave Delaney: you know, my wife's already I just dropped her off at work and then I went on to do my my walk and I'm going to listen to podcast or just talk to myself or whatever. And but while I do that, I'm getting exercise, which is very good for ADHDers, but all humans, of course.

  01:01:22

  Dave Delaney: But it's also like um so I'm getting exercise which is good and it also means that like I'm gonna a better example is I've been working on my back like my back sucks and I've been going to PT twice a week and it's gets expensive but I'm investing in our future as a couple at

  Jacob Nordby: Mhm.

  Dave Delaney: least too because that way I can lift grandkids if we get them and and and play with them and

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: not be just a miserable pile of pain uh all the time, right?

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: So I am that like doing this stuff that is costly and timeconuming is an

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: investment in not just my future but our future too together because she won't want to be around a miserable person like you know that I can be sometimes and so I think yeah so

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: taking that that artist day taking like getting yeah just going and or or half day or what have you I think is yeah good uh it's a good point.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  01:02:15

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: Um,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah. Well, and I I Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: I love especially with something like this, and this is so interesting you you framed it that way, Dave, because again, in our culture, it's we tend to be very um I know there's a lot of there's a lot of scientific debate about the loes of the brain and

  Dave Delaney: H

  Jacob Nordby: whether left brain, right brain is a valid model. Let's just use that for a moment. We tend to be very leftrain focused and reward and and um rewarded in our culture. Um, so we want to we want to know where we're going with something like what are we what are we doing here? Um, and there's nothing wrong with that. We I I have a dear friend uh Chris Nebauer who's also an ADHD person.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: He's a neurosychologist and uh and a professor and we were having a conversation about this and I said it feels to me like what you're saying Chris is that our in our culture we've essentially it's like told a bodybuilder to only work out the left side of their body only that.

  01:03:09

  Dave Delaney: Right. Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: Right?

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: And like 30 years later,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: we find that there's not there there's no functional muscle. We have a hard time even walking down the street in balance. He's he's like, "Yes." So there's nothing wrong with whatever that is, left brain, right brain function. The point is my whole thing with people a lot of times is saying we need to bring more wholeness more balance to our psyches to our way of being because that will actually in a nonlinear way it will actually inform and make more valuable the things that we do that do require goal oriented more linear um processes.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: So if we begin to look at it as an investment when we communicate with the other stakeholders in our life

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: such as our partner or kids it's like I'm taking this time a lot of times looking at it from the the more linear perspective we can judge and say those people are just carefree they don't care about schedules or retirement or anything and and that can be true but I think a lot of times if we then even if those are parts inside of ourselves not just with other people uh the parts inside of ourselves that that want to argue

  01:04:08

  Jacob Nordby: with each If we can make a deal, that's the only way I knew how to do it early on was make a deal with myself. It's like self, adult, very responsible self.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: All I'm asking for is a recess here. And when I would frame it like that, Dave,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: something would happen. That part that was like, what are we doing? What are we doing? We should be working right now.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: It would actually relax. It would say, okay, all right. Oh, that's a that's a recess. And I would reassure that part sometimes in a journaling. session. I would reassure that part like, "Hey, I'm gonna need you to take back over as soon as recess is done because we have we have stuff to do." But so there wasn't this, it turned into less of a struggle and more of an agreement like, "Yep, you get to go have a recess. When you come back, we'll get real busy on that." And I've discovered,

  01:04:52

  Jacob Nordby: you know, I've been working remote since forever.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: Um,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: long before it became a whole thing.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. Me too.

  Jacob Nordby: And and I I would notice that I would I would start at my favorite coffee shop and then I would bounce to a couple

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: hours later you'd see me upstairs at Whole Foods working away in the cafe. Uh later on a different coffee shop. Um and at first I just thought I was a mess,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: you know. Um I had a coach come along and and help me understand, no, you you're actually taking care of your psyche. You're you're actually you need to move venues more often than some people do. Um so when I began to realize that,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: I became more strategic, more intelligent with how I did. It's like, oh, this isn't just because I get restless. I mean, it is that,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: but it also I'm actually able to feed myself differently um my mind and how and and my style

  01:05:32

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: and it works better. So, I find myself at less odds internally, if that makes

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. It makes complete sense. Yeah. No, I love it.

  Jacob Nordby: sense.

  Dave Delaney: And that self-acceptance piece, I mean, you you do end up at peace with yourself because especially with late diagnosed ADHD, too, you you you understand yourself and you can look at life through that lens.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: And the more you learn, you're like, "Okay, well, like, I've run out of steam. Okay, I know why I'm out of steam now,

  Jacob Nordby: Right.

  Dave Delaney: right?" Or or whatever, whatever it is. All right, last question and then I know uh we're a little over time already. Um but what do picking uh daffodils have to do with creativity?

  Jacob Nordby: I have to tell you, you are you are a remarkable host. You have brought up things I did not expect to hear from today. Yeah. That was my first paid job at age 12 when we moved to Washington State.

  01:06:25

  Jacob Nordby: Oh man. making a direct connection is interesting. I will say this, I was 12 years old. This is my first paying job. I think back then they were paying, you know, underage farmworking kids, uh, $2.35 an hour or something.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: Um, it was hard work and I'm working alongside migrant workers who were doing that there for their full-time living. You know, they had to do it. Um, I needed to buy new tennis shoes or something, but I was This was Washington State, Dave, and and and SL, you know, rain pouring off the yellow slicker, the fingers getting all blistery and the mud, and then there'd be these moments where the sun would come up and burn away the fog, and Mount Reineer would be there looking like a a bride. And I would just have these moments. I I almost feel emotional about it right now. I'd have these moments of of transcendence. It was like there's something so beautiful and artful happening right now. Um and and so that was an early experience of like this misery, you know, rain pouring off of everything and cold and everything and tired and but then there'd be these moments of like, oh my god, if I open my eyes, even in the middle of all this,

  01:07:29

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: there's something remarkable available to me,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah. Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: you know?

  Dave Delaney: No, that's amazing. Yeah. I I I'm a big like because from mind being mindful you learn to re you can learn to reframe things, right? And and when you reframe thoughts,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: um, cognitive reappraisal, I believe the the the real doctors call it. Um,

  Jacob Nordby: Well,

  Dave Delaney: but like you can start to reflect and think about things in different ways and and turn negative thoughts into more positive ones. And it's not to mean that you're just like la like everything's happy. Um, you know,

  Jacob Nordby: not at all.

  Dave Delaney: yeah, but I I like as you're explaining that too, I I almost picture too like if you reflect on that and without,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: you know, in my if I like you and not at 12 of course, but as you get older, you're like, you know, think of like the the privilege you had in a sense, even though you're slaving away uh under rough conditions, but really your goal is to buy some shoes and and and what a life lesson.

  01:08:24

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: But then, you know, you you look at your colleagues working and they are literally slaving away.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: I mean, they are lit literally doing that to make ends meet and probably living in pretty poor conditions. So, you start to realize, too, how good you have it.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah,

  Dave Delaney: And I think we often downplay how good we have it.

  Jacob Nordby: that's

  Dave Delaney: And I think especially in this country and and Canada, my home and native land,

  Jacob Nordby: done.

  Dave Delaney: um I think, you know, we often forget just how good we've always had it. like we've never been really at war, you know, or never experienced it here. And so there's so many things that like I talk to my kids who get upset about stuff and and I'm

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah,

  Dave Delaney: like, "Yeah, but like you have to understand like you don't know what you're talking about because you've never experienced any of this

  Jacob Nordby: it's

  Dave Delaney: stuff." And and I even I'll very quickly I'll say like at um my mom's

  01:09:14

  Jacob Nordby: true.

  Dave Delaney: British and during 911 uh I was in Toronto as my mom was as well and you know once 911 once you know the attacks had had ended and and it was clear that things had stopped um because obviously Toronto and Canada obviously was on high alert as well because you know God only know knew what was going to happen there as well possibly. Um,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: and when it all settled down, I talked to my mom on the phone and she's freaking out like and I would even go as far as to say like overreacting to like just completely freaking out. And I'm like, "Mom, like it didn't happen." I mean, obviously not downplaying the severity of it all and the seriousness of course, but I told her like, "Mom, it didn't happen here. It's not It's clear it's over. It's not happening here. So, don't like calm down." And then she's like, "Dave, you don't realize." I'm like, "What?" She's like, "I grew up during the Blitz." And I'm like,

  01:10:16

  Jacob Nordby: Oh wow. Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: "Oh." And I'd never really realized.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: And even then, it took me time to realize like the Blitz wasn't a blitz. It wasn't just a moment or like a day. It was like a year of of the Germans bombing England.

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah.

  Dave Delaney: And she was sent off, you know,

  Jacob Nordby: Wow.

  Dave Delaney: to sent off to farm farmland.

  Jacob Nordby: Sure.

  Dave Delaney: All the children were sent off. It's like Lord of the Flies or something.

  Jacob Nordby: Amazing. Amazing.

  Dave Delaney: But but yeah, so again, you know, yeah,

  Jacob Nordby: Yeah,

  Dave Delaney: we forget how good we have it. So, um, awesome. This has been so great, Jacob. I've been really looking forward to talking to you and,

  Jacob Nordby: you too.

  Dave Delaney: uh, yeah, let's let's be sure to keep in touch. How can people get a hold of you and learn more about your work and connect with

  Jacob Nordby: Well, I actually have a really easy way and it's a gift.

  01:10:58

  Dave Delaney: you?

  Jacob Nordby: It's called the creative selfjournal program and if they subscribe to that then they'll get all my other stuff.

  Dave Delaney: Okay.

  Jacob Nordby: Uh so it's creativeselfjournal.com creativeselfjournal.com and there is a free download program of an ebook an audio version um and a guided visualization where I I introduced this very simple journaling process and it's great for people who hate journaling because it takes about 5 to 10 minutes a day. Julia Cameron also approved it as a as a you don't have to do this in addition to morning pages if you're a morning pages

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: person.

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: So, I yeah, that'd be a great I' I'd love to offer this because it it really is and it really does help with that self-discovery, self-acceptance, and all of that. So, uh David,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: I I've been looking forward to this for months,

  Dave Delaney: Yeah.

  Jacob Nordby: and I just I I'm going to walk away from this feeling,

  Dave Delaney: Thanks.

  Jacob Nordby: uh brighter and happier for having met you. So, thank you.

Wise Squirrels is hosted by Dave Delaney. If this episode helped you understand your own creative brain or your ADHD a little bit better, please leave a review and share it with a fellow "weirdo" who needs to hear it!